Thinking about the Practice of Biblical Lament: A Conversation with Dr. May Young

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I am happy today to be joined again by Dr. Mei Ying. She is an associate professor at Taylor University in the area of biblical studies, and she's also the department chair of biblical studies and philosophy and, you know, all the different disciplines that are underneath there. And today we're going to be talking about her newly published book, Walking with God Through the Valley, Rediscovering the biblical or the purpose of biblical lament. So Walking with God Through the Valley, rediscovering the purpose of biblical lament. And so we've had we've been together before, Mei. So it's great to have you back. And we've actually talked a lament a little bit before. So I'm excited to dig into this now that your book's actually out and ready for purchase. Great. Yeah. Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. And yeah, excited to talk about the topic of lament. So it's almost ironic to be excited to talk about lament, right? Yes, exactly. Exactly. Well, let's just dig into it, because I think one of the areas in the book that maybe we could explore this time that we really didn't get to when we talked about lament last time, sort of the ancient Near Eastern context of lament. You know, a lot of times I think we can, especially if we're not, you know, for people who aren't really familiar with Old Testament studies, there can be this perception that lament is specific to Israel or specific to the Bible. But it's really not. And so maybe you can walk us through a little bit of that and talk about how lament worked within just an ancient Near Eastern context. Sure, sure. So in my book, I do have a chapter on that that addresses it. And what I found out is, you know, universally, all human beings deal with suffering and pain and questions and doubt. So it's not necessarily specific to just the Israelites. And so all of us do struggle with, you know, those emotions or those thoughts. And in the same way in the ancient Near East, Israel's neighbors also had those. However, what we find is that what we have in Scripture and the prayers of lament in Scripture are actually very different from their neighbors. And so what I do is I do highlight, you know, what kind of ancient texts were uncovered in terms of prayers. So they don't all have necessarily a genre of lament per se, but they do have ways in which they express or they come, you know, during times of crisis to petition their gods. You know, how do they approach their gods? You know, what's happening behind that? And so what I do is I kind of tease out some of the things that are found in terms of ancient Near Eastern texts or how they deal with lament or how they deal with, you know, petitions to the deity. And then what are some, you know, differences that we find in Scripture that is actually, you know, informative for us to and in many ways, encouraging and how the people approach their gods and what we see is in terms of similarities and differences. And so I kind of tease out some of those things, highlight that. Probably one of the things that stood out to me was a lot of times when the ancient Near East neighbors approach their gods or their deity, what they do is, it's almost like I reckon it to like buttering up somebody. So kind of like, you know, trying to get someone on their side. And so you have a lot of that where, you know, there's a lot of excessive praise even before they get into the request or, you know, certain things that, you know, offering up sacrifices or promises to do certain things in that way in order for them to receive the kind of requests that they'd like. So relief from pain or different circumstances that they might be dealing with. And that's very, very different from the prayers of lament that we find in the Bible. Because if you know that in terms of, it just goes straight into, you know, addressing God. A lot of times the very first elements in laments are, you know, the invocation to God. So it just says, oh God, you know, or my God, or, you know, there's nothing of this like, necessarily kind of bringing in praise first in order for them to be having a hearing before God. They just jump right in. And so kind of showing a little bit of the nature of relationships to God and how it's viewed in the ancient Near East neighbors as opposed to Israelites in terms of the intimacy that's there with God directly as opposed to, you know, sort of buttering up God. And another thing is sometimes they have so many deities. So they actually need one deity to introduce them to another deity, you know, a lesser deity to introduce them to the larger deity who can really help them out or something like that. And so, you know, it seems like there's a lot more in terms of, you know, anonymity and not taking away from the intimacy that we actually see in the Hebrew Bible. So in Scripture in that way as well. So that's actually quite interesting. And there's other things that I highlight too that that's found as well. You got kind of an ancient religious social networking going on as the gods sort of introduced the people to other gods. Do you attribute a lot of that to, you know, I remember talking about the capriciousness of the ancient Near Eastern gods. In other words, because there's no revelation from those gods, everything is a guess. It's sort of like you don't understand exactly what they're going to do. You're really trying to infer the gods from what you're seeing in the broken world. And so while the world has these relatively consistent patterns, there's always these anomalies. And so as they're dealing with, you know, they're trying to figure out how do I move the gods in a particular direction? They're trying to sort of mechanistically move their gods in that direction. But the reality is that the mechanisms they're using don't account for the way the world actually is because it doesn't involve the triune God. Is that a sort of a fair way to think about why it is that they're or maybe one of the reasons why they, you know, pile up all these praises and prayers and, you know, to kind of cajole the gods into doing what they want? That's right. And maybe it's almost like a covering of all bases in some ways to, you know, let's make sure because, you know, they're trying to, you know, it is capricious as they're kind of approaching them in some ways, too. And so trying to figure that out as well. So there's probably a little more sense of insecurity that's involved even in approaching the gods in prayer. It's interesting that you see that even in the ancient Near East, because my mind goes to Jesus's admonition about prayer in Matthew six, where he says, don't pray like the Gentiles do who heap up many words in their prayers. You know, your God knows who you are. He knows what you need. You don't have to have all these words. I think it's probably a fairly similar problem from what I've looked at in Matthew six. It seems like the Gentiles just don't understand how to get their gods to do what they're asking them to do. And so they just sort of throw the spaghetti at the refrigerator and hope some of it sticks. Sure. Yeah, exactly. Or, you know, and, you know, which is or kind of really at a loss as to how to even build that maybe like intimacy or that kind of relationship, which, you know, you could have got or something like that. Do you see in the ancient Near Eastern writings, you know, you talk in the book about lament really leading toward hope. It's almost that lament assumes hope in a lot of ways. Do you see that in the ancient Near Eastern lament sort of texts as well, where they really are actually hoping or is this sort of a last ditch effort, you know, and, you know, everything is sort of riding on whether or not the God is going to respond. But there isn't a hope. It almost feels like, at least when I've read some of them, that it's a much more anxious moment than giving a way toward a hopeful moment. Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I think there might be more of like an anxious moment in the sense that they're not necessarily sure how the response would be, but they're doing everything on their part to try and ensure maybe a more positive response in that sense. Also, I do think that there's a little bit of a difference in there because, you know, it's not predicated necessarily on that intimate relationship and knowing how the God would be responding to their prayers and their positions. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's a last ditch effort. I think that it's probably something that they're doing maybe regularly, although they may not know what the response. They don't have necessarily the confidence sometimes for that. But I wouldn't say it's always just a last ditch effort. I think there are some times where, you know, even in some places, they'll like, you know, offer prayers and they actually, you know, leave statues there to kind of symbolize themselves offering prayers to the gods or something like that. And so it's not something that you're just doing last minute, but it's something like Symbolizing their presence before the gods, you know, even though they can't presently be there, they have a little statue that can represent.

them in that way too or something. Interesting. Yeah. You can kind of see a lot of the way that this would carry over into today's context. I mean, Christians have a sure hope. We have a clear understanding of where God is taking us, and we just don't know when He's going to get there. And so our laments are really related to the, maybe we could say the slowness of God in some cases. I'm sure that's not all there is, but, you know, that sort of idea. Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, I definitely hear, I think, you know, um, you know, having a little bit more, I mean, even with Jesus, we have even more confidence, you know, that, you know, we can come in with confidence, you know, and find help during our time of need. And that's what, you know, scripture tells us. And so it's not so much of stabbing in the dark of, you know, how is this going to work out? Who am I, am I asking from the right God even? Am I petitioning the right person to even answer me in this way? Or am I doing, you know, so that ambiguity or kind of not knowing, am I even doing the right thing and stabbing in the dark, I guess is how I would say that. But I do think it is a little bit different because we can come forward with confidence because of what, based on what Christ has done, you know, as Christians, as New Testament believers on the cross and giving us that openness in our prayers even more so in that way and coming for the Father. So I would say, you know, the fact that we don't have to, you know, turn to all these different gods and decide which is the right one is another thing that we could, you know, find a sense of peace in there as well. So it's not like, you know, am I asking the wrong person? You know, it's almost like, you know, if you have a request, you know, maybe in your company or something like that, you're like, am I bringing it to the right executive? Am I bringing the right person here? Is this going to be addressed or is it going to be shipped around to someone else who has the power to do that? And so recognizing too, like lament when we're coming to God, he's the one who has the power to change the condition. You know, he's the one who can help us. And that's exactly why we lament and why we call out to him because he can and he has the power to do so. Yeah. Well, can we, I want to shift gears a little bit and talk a little bit about, again, that sort of relationship between lament and hope. So as I was reading through the book, part of what I think you captured really well is that lament can cultivate a sense of hope. You know, it leads there. It almost inexorably leads there. And so I'm wondering if you think the inverse could be true, that we have almost a less sure sense of hope because we're not practicing lament. You know, I think there is definitely a possible correlation in that a lot of times when we're not lamenting, because in lament, what you're doing is you're trying to engage God. And you're what you're seeing is a dissonance between what you're experiencing and what you, in your theology and what you read in scripture. So there's a dissonance as like, you know, why is it like this? How come scripture says this, but I'm experiencing this. And why is, you know, God, why are you allowing these things to happen? Or, you know, some of those things. And so you're trying to wrestle with that. And so as you wrestle with that, that actually strengthens your faith in some ways as you kind of get delve into the character of God, come into his presence, you know, deal with these things. But when you're not lamenting, oftentimes what happens is you've actually made a decision in your head that, you know, I'm not going to engage with God because, you know what, God's not really out for me. You know, these I've tried the Christian faith. It just doesn't work. You know, God's not, you know, these things. So it's almost like you've made a decision that you're not going to seek and actually engage to find that out. You've just like, just you'd rather walk away. And so that's kind of where I talk about a lot of times, you know, You know, when people are struggling or doubting or things like that, there's often a desire to just say, you know what? This Christian faith, it's not for me. It doesn't work. It's not true. You know, and there there's a decision there, uh, to not engage. So you're actually disengaging from the very avenue of, you know, trying to wrestle with, is this true? You know, is this, can I find greater hope? And you've made it a choice. And so it's almost like a hopeless choice when you walk away and just say, you know what? It's not true. And all these things. And you shut the door to that. And so there's almost like a, a sense of, um, you know, hopelessness that might grow in your heart that, you know, you disengage from the church, you disengage from others. Um, you disengage from the word of God, um, and you've actually, you know, walked down a path of more hopelessness rather than really doing that work of struggling and saying, is this really true? What's happening here and, and engaging God and allowing God to speak, uh, to your heart and to speak through the word and to help us to gain a better perspective to move towards a place of hope. Yeah, it was interesting. I appreciate that answer. I, I think that that really helps me because when I was reading through your book again, I was thinking, uh, um, two works came to mind. David Camp and I's work on idolatry and then, um, Chris Wright's work, um, here are your gods. And, and what I kept thinking was, you know, when we don't engage in lament and we seek solutions on our own. There is a subtle shift toward like, we're basically backing into the sort of lament that the ancient Near Easterners practiced. We're essentially saying that God is no longer our hope, that he is not going to answer us, that that lament is pointless and I have to solve these problems myself. And so we move from a place of surety into a place of ambiguity because we're, we're starting to essentially erode the trust that we have in God, that, that engagement that you're talking about, we, we subtly move away from it and put our trust in other things. And so we sort of multiply our gods alongside of the Lord. We don't have to dismiss him totally, maybe, but we, we do do something that, that I think was what struck me as I was reading it. You had that ancient Near Eastern context, which was so interesting. And then you had this dynamic of engagement. And then when those other works started coming to mind, I'm like, this is so interesting because what you really have there is the, the backing into almost a polytheistic system, you know, where we're, we're multiplying these idols that we trust as opposed to lament centering us back on the Lord and asking him to act on our behalf, knowing that there's no one else who will. That's right. Kind of vibe. Yeah. And I, I also, too, um, making ourselves our own God in some ways, because God's not going to help me out. You know, so I'm going to, I'm going to have to do this. I'm going to have to take care of this. And so, you know, putting that trust and hope in ourselves and our ability. Yeah. Really good stuff. I, you know, one of the other areas, and we can kind of circle back into lament, uh, but I, I wanted to, I want to make sure I get this in. So I'll kind of get it in the meat of the episode here. Um, you tell a story about teaching in Hong Kong at a seminary with these pastors, and they talk about an unwillingness to lament because it brings shame and, you know, those kinds of things. And I'm wondering if you can just relay that a little bit and then maybe we can talk about, because you do reference like this obviously isn't just something that happens outside the US. This isn't just something in the, you know, the Hong Kong culture, the Asian culture. It's all over the place. And so, um, I was hoping we could talk a little bit about that, but if you could tell that story in maybe a little more detail than I just did. Yeah, sure, sure. So, so when I was teaching, um, I did have some student, these were leaders in churches.

I know round churches who came to study just different things in scripture. And so the class that I was teaching on was on lamentations, and we're talking about the concept of lament, and they say that they don't want to be honest with their congregation because they feel judged and that when they expose their weakness, it's hard for the congregation to accept. And so some of them actually faced judgment and, you know, people looking down on them uh for sharing their weaknesses. And so, uh, for them, you know, they felt humiliated, I guess, in some sense, too, of as they're trying to be vulnerable with the community and people looking at leaders at a certain way and putting them perhaps in their own perspective, what they should be and should not be struggling with, and if someone was honest, they actually, you know, judged them in some ways, sometimes even shunned them. And so that actually hinders then leaders from wanting to be honest with the congregation. Yeah. And when you think about that dynamic, it, it probably manifests a little differently in the United States, let's say, but it's definitely there. I mean, I think when you look at the stats on pastoral loneliness, for instance, this almost has to be a contributing factor that the pastors are trying to isolate themselves sufficient to maintain some sort of a persona, maybe, maybe even an appropriate distance, although I think it is probably more the persona. People expect the pastor not to, they don't even expect the pastor not to struggle with anything, but I would say that they, they do expect the pastor to handle it maybe better than they are. And so, yeah, it's not just a, it's not just a cultural norm necessarily, but it definitely impacts the way we do it in the U.S. too, wouldn't you say? You know, I, I do. I think, but, you know, I feel like more recently, thankfully, because we've, you know, talked a little bit more about lament in the church, and actually, you know, issues of mental health, that we're actually in the States trying to be more mindful of that and being able to share vulnerabilities even from the pulpit or from the leadership. Um, I think growing up, I didn't see that as much. Um, and I mentioned that in the book. So a lot of times we often hear about people who were struggling, we didn't even know they were struggling, and then they've overcome and then they have this like overcoming story and we're all like, wow, you know, and that kind of shaped us to have this more of a triumphalistic kind of perspective on church. And so, you know, we don't hear about people when they're struggling, uh, but then after they've overcome and they have this great testimony, that's when they speak. But, you know, and so, and then that also contributes to people and be like, well, I'm not overcoming. There's something wrong with me, you know? Um, and so, and I do think, though, probably more in recent years, people are aware of that and trying to, you know, in the midst of struggling, um, being more open, uh, so even in leadership. So I've seen that a little bit more definitely within the church, but it's definitely still an area of struggle. I've also heard where pastors will say, you know, I can't share these weaknesses in front of the congregation, you know, and they just feel like, you know, for some reason to do that would be shameful or that the congregation can't know of their certain weaknesses, which, you know, I don't think is helpful. I've seen some pastors actually who are very honest and talk about their struggles and, um, and they're modeling it well. So modeling it because we all struggle. Um, so instead of pretending like we don't have struggles and that one day we're going to overcome all these things and we're doing great, you know, we all have struggles. And so how much more powerful would it be for leaders to kind of, you know, exemplify, you know, in our struggles, how we work with the Lord, how we seek God, how we deal with these things. And I think, um, we've seen definitely more openness to that in the States, but, um, I think there's definitely more work to be done. Do you, do you worry at all? I mean, you know, the old image of the pendulum swinging back too far the other way, right? So that, that's obviously a concern, I think, but maybe the better question is, how do you, how do you right-size this? How do you, having studied Lament as you have, how do you put it in a context and say, this is, you know, sort of the, the broad boundaries of the appropriate practice of Lament so that we don't turn into a community of whiners, right, where we're just, you know, everything is a catastrophe and, you know, oh my gosh, you know, uh, I, you know, I spilled mustard on my t-shirt and my, my life is over. Oh God, when are you coming back kind of thing? Like, you know, and versus that, that sort of stony closed off, we're not going to admit our problems. We're just going to keep those tucked away in a little hole somewhere and deal with them on our own. What's the, what do you think is the happy medium, like the, the real biblical practice of Lament? What do you think it looks like? Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Well, I do think that, you know, you know, sometimes these are personal prayers too. So there's an element that we're not just coming to the community lamenting always in front of everybody because there's personal laments and there's also communal laments. So there's that element too. So like, you know, oh, you know, I spilled mustard out of my t-shirt. You're not going to come out and, you know, just I'm just saying like for all these things. And there's, there's probably appropriate places, you know, to have small groups that, you know, are open and honest to say, you know, today was a, is a difficult day, you know, and I'm struggling. And, you know, having those smaller contexts within the church that you still have a community of support around you. And then in the, on the larger group at, um, uh, kind of congregational aspect, kind of those kind of giving more space for, um, you know, larger issues, you know, um, that the church is facing or that the nation is facing and to acknowledge that together and to lament that together. Um, I think that's, that's an appropriate, you know, because there's a difference too in, in communal versus individual elements. And perhaps on the individual level, if we were to take it to the congregation to maybe just give, give a little time for recognizing that not everybody's coming to church happy or, you know, uh, in the upright spirits and some people are dealing with very heavy issues as they enter the church doors and perhaps having a song of lament that could help for them to resonate because there's times where, you know, people come to church and they have a heavy heart and they don't, they're not ready yet to, to come into the praise and to have a place of lament, uh, which they can, you know, um, empathize with and help them to come to a place of worship as well. So, you know, so I, I would say it's not just, you know, everybody, let's, you know, lament, um, together or something like that. But, you know, what are, you know, certain practical ways that we could do it in wise ways, um, to incorporate aspects of lament into, you know, our corporate worship, into our corporate body, into recognizing when someone is going through a difficult time and the, and loss of a loved one, even how do we come alongside them? What are some supports that can be helpful? You know, cause sometimes people feel awkward. They don't know how to even, you know, approach someone who's gone through such heavy losses, um, to actually provide avenues so that people feel like they can, uh, be in a safe way to encourage this person and allow that person to feel the, the support of the body, but also have space for personal lament as well. Yeah, that's really good. It strikes me. I, I teach a Bible study on Wednesday mornings and, uh, this past Wednesday, one of the guys was talking about how do we draw, how do we see the mundane events of our day as significant? How do we, how do we respond to God in the, the little things? You know, we were talking a little bit about, you know, we were going through like first.

Samuel 24, David doesn't kill Saul. He's got this moment where he respects the Lord too much to kill the Lord's anointed, and so he doesn't do it. And that's sort of a big event. It's sort of like a moment of heroism, and it's something that you'd see recorded, and like we said, it was, I'm like, it's that Braveheart moment where at the end of the movie, he's yelling freedom, even though he's being disemboweled kind of thing. But then the inevitable question was, well, how do you do that in your mundane things of life? And I'm thinking as you're talking, it's like, you know, that practice of personal lament can be a way for us to cultivate an understanding of the sacred aspect of the mundane things in our lives, that these aren't just horrible things that happen to us or just little annoyances or whatever. These are the products of a broken world that need to be redeemed. And so I think there's a real, you know, we often think, I think, in terms of significance, like the way the question was asked, how do we glorify God in the mundane moments of our life? But, you know, these feel like two sides of the same coin to me. How do we lament the mundane things of life, right? Because in lamenting them, somehow we also recognize them as sacred. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I think it's kind of like living our lives in the presence of God in many ways, too, and to be able to, you know, in our times of praise and in our times of loss or in our times of weakness, that we're in his presence and to be able to build that intimacy with God in the midst of that on a daily level, even in things that could, you know, so we're not just always just, you know, coming only in the big things of our lives, coming to thank him or coming to, you know, lament, but actually building that intimacy on a day-to-day basis and being real and being honest. And so that we're not uncomfortable when we actually have to come to him with the big things. So like, how do I approach him now? You know, or, you know, I can't come to God now because I haven't seen him forever, you know? So like maybe in that, you know, just having that cultivating and being honest, lifting these things, you know, before God, because, you know, in our days, I mean, we do encounter some moments where it's difficult and there's always moments of thankfulness and praise as well on a, you know, what could seem like a mundane thing, but we can use that to cultivate our intimacy and growth. I'll throw you a little bit of a curve ball because I'm interested. I know you wrote in a volume on Lament in the pandemic. Is that right? Yes, I did. Can you, can you talk a little bit about how you thought through that? I think that was such an interesting time for a lot of people and how you see Lament sort of fitting into that situation. Just talk a little bit about how you thought through that, if you could. Yeah, I mean, what I addressed in that, the volume, was really in Habakkuk and kind of talking about questions that were raised to God and how, what does that look like? And so what I was dealing with was, you know, so maybe this is a little bit different from what you're asking, but what I was talking about in my article was just really more of like, you know, is it okay to question God? And, you know, there's something about the kind of form that Habakkuk used, actually. He used rhetorical questions primarily in his address to God. And so what is it about rhetorical questions that stood out from the text? So it's almost like, you know, it wasn't like he was just shaking his fist at God and saying, why? You know, but it was like, God, you know, why are you doing this? Your eyes are too pure to look upon evil and kind of reminding God of his character. You know, in rhetorical questions, you're not necessarily asking for an answer per se, but you're reminding, you're persuading, you're dealing, you're interacting with a person, but you're also making a statement. So it's just really interesting because in that questioning, it was like questioning, but recognizing that he's still God, but also reminding him of his character and what he does. And why is it like this? And so even in our approach of God through the pandemic, it's not just like, why God did you allow this? But, you know, like, you know, approaching, recognizing his sovereignty, but also engaging him and, you know, saying, you know, and recognizing too and wrestling with, you know, the fact of sin and in our world, the fallenness of our world. And that's something that the prophet had to deal with and think about too, like, why is all this happening? And really being able to bring that before God. And then also for him, you know, it was recognizing that God is just and he's going to bring about things in his timing and God's going to work out things, even though he didn't fully understand it, but he was able to surrender that and trust God. That's why at the end of, you know, the book, you have that powerful prayer of faith that comes forth from the prophet. And so for us too, like, even as we engage, you know, sometimes we won't get all the answers that we're looking for, but I think, you know, coming back, engaging God, coming back to recognize who he is, his character, even in the midst of a fallen world, how can we continue to, you know, live out our faith with hope, even in the midst of a lot of brokenness that surrounds us? Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think there's something in those rhetorical questions and sort of speaking God's attributes back to him, asking questions based on those attributes that really does keep God in the forefront of our vision. It gives God that sort of weight that he's due in the moment as opposed to surrendering ourselves to the situation. There's a continual refocusing back on God and really trying to respond and engage with him so that we're not just looking out at the torture that's going on around us. We're actually refocusing this and saying, God, you are this. How can this be happening? But really remaining rooted and interacting and, as you said before, in God's presence on these matters. Yes, yes. So I do think that's very important for us to, you know, even move to a place of resilience as well. Yeah. Do you find that, I mean, like as you were talking about the rhetorical questions and sort of leaning back into God's character, what pops into my head are a couple of questions. Number one, maybe I'll ask them in reverse order, but number one, do you find that in other Lament Psalms, is that sort of the primary vehicle that these lamentations are addressed? But then also, it seems like when you go into Revelation and you see the martyrs who are under the throne and they're crying out to God, how long, O Lord, you know, when are you going to make all this stop? That there's still a gesturing toward the surety of God's action. This is not a, this is not a question of why can't you do anything or why aren't you doing anything? It's more of a, when are you going to do something? Which does tend to acknowledge that God is going to do something and that he is capable of doing something. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, predicated upon the character of God, like his justice as well as his mercy. And so I think leaning into that and recognizing he is a just God. So kind of coming back to that and recognizing, you know, we might not understand justice fully from our perspective and what that should look like, but we can actually trust that he is God and he's able to do that. And so I think it's, it's not just, it is leaning on the character of God, but it's also at the same time. What I find in the Psalms is it's not just talking about his character per se, but it's also looking at what he's already done, what he's done in history, what he's done for his people, what he's done in deliverance, what he's done. So like, we're not just, you know, I mean, the character of God is very powerful for us to have hope, but it's also what has God done? How has he acted, interacted with his people? How has he acted even in our own lives? And so that, as we reflect on that, that shifts our perspective as well. And I think that's sometimes true, like even on a, on a personal, you know, human level

you know, maybe something that doesn't sit well with how they acted, with what you expected of them. And then as you're talking to them, you start remembering, like, yeah, their motive is not out to be against me. They have always been supportive of me. You know what I mean? So as you reflect on that, and then you think about, oh, you know, they've done all these things in their actions that have showed me that. So then you can move forward to say, okay, I believe what you're saying, that you weren't out for my, you know, that you actually know what you're doing, or you're not just out, you know, how to hurt me in this way. And so you're working that out too, even on a human level, kind of recognizing the character of this person, recognizing the history of the relationship that you have with this person, and it moves you to a place of greater intimacy, actually, to understand this person a little better as well as they articulate things. Yeah, I mean, just as you talk about it, where my mind goes, I had a conversation with a gentleman on the podcast previously about the beatific vision and this desire for us to ultimately stand in the presence of God. And it just seems to me that lament is almost like a struggle to remain in God's presence. It's this idea that we're seeing who God is, we're seeing what God has done, we're recognizing what all he's going to do, but in our experience right now, that's not what's happening. And so instead of just sort of going to a utopian place and being like, oh, I guess it'll all be okay someday, we're struggling to be in God's presence in those moments. It's sort of a, it's a really fascinating practice. Yes, yes, I think that's really true. And I think there's also where an element, sometimes it shows that vacillation in our hearts too. So you, and I think it captures it well in like Psalm 41 and 42, that talks about, you know, where, you know, why are you downcast, O my soul? You know, put your hope in God, you know. So there's this struggle and then, you know, the one moment the psalmist is doing well and, you know, praising the Lord. And then the next moment they're struggling. And I think that's, you know, a resembling of our own hearts and our own life as well. And so, like you said, it's like a struggle here. So, you know, and recognizing that it's okay and there's nothing wrong with that. And sometimes, you know, through that process, you get to a place that you're like, wow, I guess I'm feeling okay, a little better than I thought I would be. And you don't even, you know, like in that struggle, like there's a processing that you've done in dealing with these questions that you've had and allowing God to speak into that as well. It's interesting when you say, you know, sort of process and processing because I think one of the things that I've, as I've interacted with guys in Bible study or small groups or wherever, I think one of the things that keeps coming up with Christians is that they're uncomfortable with the process. You know, I usually point to the life of Abraham and say, look, for Abraham to get from chapter 12 to chapter 22, there's a lot of stubbing his toe and doing some weird stuff. And that's not just 10 chapters. That's a lot of years. That's right. Abraham's in process that entire time to get to the point where in chapter 22, God recognizes him as one who fears the Lord. And so our lives are in process. They are, we are, we're moving through this, but how do we help people get comfortable with that idea as opposed to the positional standing we have in Christ, which is obviously true. There's also this process that we have to go through that, that even just in the great commission, you know, teaching others to observe all Christ commanded. Well, teaching isn't, it doesn't just happen. You teach an awful lot. I, you know, it's a process, right? Even if you tell students once, it doesn't always sink in and that's, that's okay. It just takes time. So how do we, how do we get people comfortable with the process and maybe particularly the process of lament? Well, I mean, I think getting people maybe comfortable with the process, I think is one way is like scripture, like what you said, like showing in scripture, you know, Abraham, David, Joseph, you know, all these people who have, you know, in their own lives have struggled and wrestled or, you know, just seeing, you know, even like Jeremiah or, you know, people that we think, you know, prophets or, you know, there's always a process that's happening here or in the lives of people so that people would see that this is not something strange, that this is, you know, not something, you know, that you just arrive, you know, almost like, um, but that you still also, you know, we live in this world and so it's in a process. And so I think probably showing people in scripture that this is normal and this is not something unusual that we're asking people to recognize in their own life, uh, would just be a little bit more helpful. And then, and then when, when we're able to see that this is how God is working in the lives of his people through a process, then we could also bring in, you know, one way is through lament as well, as we lament some of the difficulties, because in this process, we have to recognize that life is full of difficulty. Life has challenges, you know, we are dealing with sin. We are dealing with death. We're dealing with anger. And if we're talking about a process, how do we actually move through that? And so kind of helping them to realize that, you know, lament is a way that we can do that as we wrestle with these kinds of emotions and these kinds of things in our lives. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Yeah, it needs to be a part of that process. Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's not the only part of the process, but it can be, you know, a helpful way. And that's kind of where, you know, you would say, you know, sometimes you can't just expect a person just to snap out of it. That's what we want to do. Like, you know, suck it up, you know, walk it off, you know. But you know what I mean? And I think we, you know, have that mentality, like, oh no, you know, like, can they really struggle? But, you know, it isn't about, you know, we're not emotional as people. We're not like, you know, sometimes I teach on lament and it's like, I show a Spock. We're not Spock, you know, like in Star Trek. We're not emotionless people. You know, we have emotions and how do we recognize that and how do we see that in one another? How do we, you know, in the midst of our emotions, be able to process and get to a place where we can be okay instead of, you know. You know, snap our fingers and we're there. And so what does that look like? Do you have, you know, sort of as we kind of start to wrap up, do you have specific biblical passages where, so my, my assumption here is that maybe there's a lot of people out here listening who aren't as familiar with Lament as they could be. I guess we could say that about just about anything. But, you know, there, there's always these, I find that when I'm teaching the Bible, there are certain passages that almost everybody knows. They've been around Christianity for very long. They know, they know the standard passages, right? But Lament's aren't really part of those standard passages usually. And so, you know, as opposed to like saying, hey, let's dive into the book of Lamentations, which can be challenging in a lot of ways. Are there some texts that you think people could sort of slide into and get a feel for this, you know, without having to, you know, do a deep, deep study of, like I said, the book of Lamentations or something like that or even the book of Habakkuk? Sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah, I think, well, I think, I guess I'll just have to plug my book because I actually, you know, I actually go through specific passages that deal with like, you know, sin, Psalm 51, you know, a very, very popular psalm, but you know, walking through that from the standpoint of Lament and, and seeing what that looks like. So I actually, you know, I specifically wanted to do that is to give specific

Like, okay, go do it. And then people are like, what? I don't know what that means. How do I do this? Like, do I just cry or do I sit there with sadness? Like, you know, do I poke my, I don't know, you know what I'm saying? So like, people are like, I know it's important for us to lament, but what do I, what does that mean? And so that's why I wanted the second half of my book to have specific passages in the Psalms, in laments for us to like, look at what are, what are those aspects, those essential elements in the genre of lament that we see in these particular Psalms that can help us and that we can personalize it. And I liken it to, like, when one of the, you know, disciples were saying, hey, Jesus, could you teach us how to pray? You know, Jesus didn't just say, oh, just talk to God. It's like a conversation, you know, like he actually gave them the Lord's Prayer. And when you hear sermons on it, people actually talk about, oh, this element is this, and this is how we pray to God the Father. He's our father. He's not just some heavenly being and kind of unpacking that for us. And sometimes you go and just pray the Lord's Prayer, you know, wrote, you know, just saying it and other times they can personalize it. And so I feel like for us, the Psalms of Lament could be, as we look at the elements, we can see that, you know, we're praying to God. This person is dealing with this. We can personalize it for ourselves in this way and we can sometimes pray those Psalms directly and sometimes we can personalize it to the different elements that we see there as well. And so having those as, you know, a way for us to write. And I feel like those elements help people to write their own laments. I've actually had like students when I've taught to giving them these elements, describing them, walking through it with them, having them write their own laments. And they really actually felt like it was so healing and helpful as they were able to articulate just some of the things that they were going through or some of the struggles that they had and to, you know, give them a way to actually give voice to their pain. You know, I think is important because sometimes when you're going through pain or you're going through these, it's almost like overwhelming emotions that you don't even know how to articulate. And so when you're given something like this, it helps you to kind of sort through a little bit more in how you express even your prayers to God. And so that's kind of what I did in the book. And then I actually give examples of different people who've gone through some difficult situations and how they lament those as well. Very cool. I appreciated the book immensely. And so, uh, I really did enjoy those sections. I mean, I, you, you know, I went, you know, we both went to Trinity. We both got our PhDs in Old Testament, but you know, Old Testament is kind of a big book and a doctoral degree isn't meant to cover the whole thing. And so I never actually had classes on lament. So, you know, my, I was limited to, you know, sort of what I'd had early on, you know, and, and those points of the genre. And I just felt your book really revived in me that interest to get back in and really rediscover some of these passages and, and rethink how to put those into practice. That was fantastic. So I really appreciated it. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it. Well, I think we'll, we'll close it up there. Um, and, uh, just really appreciate you being here, May. We're going to put the, uh, book in a link to the book in the show description. Uh, IVP gives us 20% off discount code. So if you go to the link in the description and you click on the link, there'll be a code there. You can buy it from the IVP press website, uh, for 20% off, but it is walking with God through the Valley. Highly recommended. Um, great book, great read, great information, and, uh, really appreciated you being here again, May. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me and I always enjoy our conversations. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. Thanks for being here, everybody. We will catch you on the next episode of thinking Christian. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. You know, everybody talks about life after death, but what about life during life? Hey everybody, Greg Laurie here. And on the Greg Laurie Show, we're tackling life's biggest questions like, why am I here? What really matters? And what happens when I die? I'll discuss cultural topics with friends and experts and examine the biblical truth behind everyday issues and even share stories about my own personal spiritual journey. Listen now to the Greg Laurie Show on lifeaudio.com or wherever you get your podcasts.