Thinking about Lament: A Conversation with Julie Bradley

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm joined by my co-host, Nate, and our guest today is Julie Bradley. And I'm going to let Nate introduce her because they know each other from family and church and neighborhood. And so, Nate, go ahead and introduce your guest here. Yeah, well, I'm really excited to have my friend Julie Bradley. She's kind of always been like a second mom to me, but also a spiritual advisor, spiritual mentor. I've always thought, like, if I could just someday have the heart for God that Julie does. So we're really excited to have you. Thanks for joining us today, Julie. Thank you. It's my privilege to be on here with you. And I'm excited. I love what you guys are doing. And I've listened to several. Awesome. Very cool. Tell us a little bit. I mean, we've got Nate's brief introduction there, but just tell us a little bit about yourself. What do you do? What church are you attending? And then we'll kind of flow into what we really want to talk about, which is this 40 days of lament that you've been going through. Awesome. So I'm retired. I was in accounting for 40 plus years and finally got to retire. And I still am in accounting because I do that as a volunteer for our church. But I go to Real Church in Lenexa. And it's a church that my son planted almost six years ago now. And I had gone to Antioch Church for 40 years. So I'm kind of a faithful person. I'm not somebody who jumps around a lot. I find a place and I plug in and this is where I'm supposed to be. And anyway, that's, you know, my heart has been prayer. Since I first really found the Lord, I knew it was important. I really didn't know how to pray. I've kind of been on a 48-year journey of him teaching me about prayer. And intercession is one of my, Nate had mentioned that I do intercession at our church. And that's something that he taught me about probably about 18, 19 years ago. And so this lament is just kind of part of my life anymore, just sitting with the Lord and praying over what's on his heart. Let's talk a little bit about, because you told the story to us before we got on the, before we started recording, but I'd love to hear it again, just so that our listeners can hear as well. But how did you get into this lament period? What was, you know, how did that come about? Yeah, so this year I felt directed to read through the Bible through the prophets. And so I've been honing in. Those have been the books I've been reading through. And as I'm reading through these different prophets, I am seeing such a correlation between the state that our nation is in and the state that Israel was in when these books were written. And I just, in the beginning, I think it a little bit frightened me because I thought, I know what happened to Israel when she didn't turn from her ways. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. But as I continued reading, I just felt the heart of God in that His last course is judgment. He always wants repentance and people to return. And so as I read, continued to read through the different prophets, I just sat and wept with the Lord and just, you know, I'm so sorry. How did we get here? That type of thing. And when the beginning of September came, I was in Ezekiel and I actually read Ezekiel 19. And it said, as for you, take up a lament for the princes of Israel. And I felt like the Lord stopped me right there and said, I want you to do 40 days of lament for your nation leading up to the election. So that began this 40 days that we're in now. I think we're on day, I don't know, 18 or 19 right now. Fantastic. And when you say we, who all is involved with you? Just your church or do you have a broader sort of group who's doing this? Yeah, so it's definitely my prayer team at my church is involved. But I also felt like I would really like to get people from all over the United States praying these prayers, not just here in Kansas. And so I posted on Instagram and Facebook that I was going to be doing this. And if anybody would want to join me and I had a lot of people say, I'll join you. And so I've been posting my prayers every morning on Instagram and Facebook and then also sending them to my prayer team. Very cool. That's awesome. What are you learning? We've had some people on who have talked about lament a good bit. And I'm an Old Testament guy, so I kind of like the lament Psalms and all the different laments that you find in the Old Testament. And so one of the things that I'm curious about, I guess, is as you've gone, as you started doing the prayers of lament, do you have any better sense of how we got here? You know, as you're lamenting, what are you learning as you're doing the lament? What are you what are you seeing that maybe we should have seen earlier? You know, that's now becoming more clear. Do you have any insights like that? Yeah, yes, so much. Just different little ways. You know, it's the little it's the little foxes, right, that come in just different little ways how we invited. And, you know, our nation was a nation of a group of different people who came together to start this nation. And so it's a melting pot of all different backgrounds. But we all had one common goal, or at least that's what we we came together under a one common goal. And I see how, you know, just different things about letting people into our country, which was a great thing. It was a good thing. We were always a place of refuge for people who were in a nation that was struggling or in a place, you know, where they were being oppressed or we were always. But how in allowing that and not keeping our guard up, we've allowed a lot of different things to come in and change this nation, change who this nation is, change what our standards are. And excuse me, that's that's opened my eyes. You know, just the little subtle ways that things came in and how the enemy makes them appear as light. You know, he doesn't come in very ugly. He comes in in light. Oh, we're going to do this for the good. We're going to, you know, and how it started out. And and we've just kind of let our guard down and allowed things to come in to our nation to change really who we are. And and, you know, I look at how we appear. That's one of the things he's been showing me, how we appear to other nations. We used to always appear as, you know, somebody who would champion you, somebody who would come and help you and rescue you. And how now we're almost a laughingstock because how we have dropped our standards and allowed so much evil to be celebrated as good. And so there's just been a lot of eye opening. It came in so unaware. We were so unaware of what was coming in when it happened. Yeah, I think the enemy, he never presents himself as the enemy. Otherwise, people would would be like, oh, no, I don't need to do that. And then also what you said that I think is so true is it's not like these huge things that happen like at one time. It's just these little tidbits, little things, little cracks that he kind of sneaks in. And then I think there's a lot to say, too, about desensitization. I think our kids, like our the next generation coming up, even more so than us, it's more desensitized to things. And they're questioning things. I have to talk to my kids all the time about what's right and what's not, just because there's a lot of blurry lines out there now that weren't so blurry 20 years ago. I think it.

Changed incredibly, like, and it didn't happen fast, but it happened a lot over a long period of time, like you said, so I totally agree with that. It's interesting, I was just reading the Federalist papers, and so I'll give you both a sense of how big a geek I actually am. I was reading through the Federalist papers, and I was kind of examining how many of the people who were involved in America's founding thought through some of these issues. And in the Federalist papers, I believe it's the 10th one, number 10, Madison addresses the issue of factions. And so they were contemplating what would happen when a group of citizens who have their own individual opinions, their own individual interests, and they're pursuing those individual opinions and interests, apart from a common good, but they're just pursuing those themselves, how this style of government, the republic, could diminish the negative influence of those factions. And he offers, he definitely offers some interesting thoughts on it, you know, sort of the republican nature versus the democratic or the populist side of things, republican being more representative versus populist being, you know, sort of an up-down majority rule kind of vote. And what he argued in part was that the representatives that are voted in are not supposed to just listen to the public voice. They're not simply to go with the majority, but they're to chart the best course for our nation. And I think that there's an interesting way, as I read through that, and I was thinking through various other ideas related to liberalism and some of these other things, you know, one thing our government, and I don't think any government could ever overcome, is simply the evil of the human heart. And so we know this is going to go off the rails at some point. There's no safeguard that we can possibly put around it, save the gospel, right? But there's no human system that we can put in place. I mean, even God's law when he hands it down to Israel, this law that comes directly from God and his presence in their midst is not capable of softening their hearts. They've got to have a new heart renewed in them. And I think it was just fascinating to read back through again, you know, some of the people who founded the nation contemplating the types of evil and the types of ways that people could go off the rails. I think it was even, I think it might've been Adams who talked about the challenge of... Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Human depravity versus the virtue and dignity that humans display and how do we design a government so that we're not constantly afraid of the former, but not too dependent on the latter. And so you have these sort of fascinating mix of things, but just as you were talking about that lesson from the lament that came to mind, it was such an interesting passage that they already, I mean, even before you'd have like, you know, 50 years in, you're already thinking about this just two years after the nation's founding or three or four, you know, you're already starting to have these problems surface. It's amazing. Right. Yeah. And there's nothing new under the sun. Right. It's just repeats. History just repeats it itself, you know, and I think that's what I'm like. I feel our land has been under judgment for a while now. And that's probably a whole nother episode, maybe about what happened in our last election. The Lord showed me all kinds of stuff that was going to happen before it happened. And just how to pray. I was praying big prayers of lament before, and that was just between me and the Lord. But just, I feel like, you know, we're already suffering a lot of judgment from things that have taken place in our nation and just now pleading for mercy has been really just relenting and repenting for what we've allowed in and where we're at now. You know, you say 20 years ago, I'm 68. So I think back 60 years ago when I was a kid, I mean, things were so different. Sin was not on display. Sin was hidden. And it was something you weren't proud of. You didn't want to shout it from the mountaintops that you were doing things. You were, you know, and how that has so flipped. And like you said, your kids, you know, seeing this stuff and then having to navigate, you know, what this really is that they're seeing displayed and how it can harm them and harm their hearts and harm their relationship with the Lord. And, you know, that's a tough place to be in. And that's why I feel like God is the only one, right, who can come in and who can save this land. He's just like he did with Israel. He, in the prophets, he actually goes against their enemies and he starts, you know, having the prophets prophesy against their enemies. And I mean, that's kind of where I feel like I've kind of landed right now in the part of the Ezekiel that I'm in. And that's where I'm getting all my lament prayers from is from Ezekiel. And, you know, that God, you can come in and you can judge our enemies and you can bring them down. And, you know, because I can't think of a way that we can do it on our own without his help. Right. I think social media too has shined a brighter light on this. I think, like you said, Julie, I think pastors falling, which, you know, gives people ammunition to be like, oh, I don't want anything to do with Christianity because look at this pastor, look at this mega pastor, look at this guy going to jail, look at this affair and all these things. I think those things were happening all those years ago. It's just, like you said, it was in hiding. We weren't seeing it. We're seeing stuff in real time now. And it's almost like people are desensitized to that as well and they don't care as much. And they're just like, oh, another one, another one. And I think it hurts those of us that are really trying to reach people with the gospel and with the good news. So it puts us in a challenging place. But I like what you said, James. I think it's the heart. The heart of man hasn't changed. I think it's just never going to be fully like God's, you know, until he fully redeems us. So anyway. Well, I'd also say, I mean, I think, Julie, when you were talking about, you know, sort of the major changes that have been made, that people who are willing to flaunt evil and, you know, flaunt some of the immoral acts that they're doing. I think one of the things that I've been increasingly thinking about is we live in a country where everything is an option. You know, it was the 2022 State of Theology report, I believe it was 38% of U.S. evangelical Christians agreed with the statement that religious convictions are a matter of personal opinion, not objective truth. That's almost 40% of U.S. evangelicals. And the interesting part about that is there's another, I believe it was 15% if I'm remembering correctly, that either didn't know or only somewhat disagreed. And so you've probably got a wider proportion of people who are going to sit back and say, yeah, these religious convictions that I hold, well, I've opted into those. It's like an email list. I'm opting in and I could opt out at some point. And so as opposed to thinking of it in terms of, you know, Christ is real, the triune God is real, and they have a claim on our lives that we can't escape. Yeah. Now what we're thinking about in terms of, yeah, I just, I sort of hopped into the Christian thing. You know, it's a volunteer society. And so if we want to leave, we can leave. And I think we see a lot of that in the deconstruction movement. I think we see a lot of that in just opting into other communities that maybe display different morals. Right. But we've very much, I kind of hesitate to say it like this, but I don't have any better words at the moment. We've idolized our own opinions. We've become an authority unto ourselves. And when there is no other authority...

There's no guardrails now. Right. It's a slippery slope. Yeah, so I think what we're seeing, if I had my assessment of it, is I think what we're seeing, obviously, the theological side is just, you know, normal human depravity run amok. But we're also seeing a lack of control and constraint from anything that would be significant. There's nothing holding it back now because our government is just sort of saying, well, we can't really police that because it's a matter of personal opinion. It's a matter of, you know, individual rights. They have the right to pursue their own happiness and those kind of things. Never really grounded in a moral structure. It was always just sort of assumed that there would be a moral structure. So, yeah, it's a fascinating thing to think about how the nation is sort of moving in a trajectory in a direction and what it would actually take to turn it around. I guess maybe that's my next question is, when you're thinking about the Lament, obviously, they're lamenting for the nation. How do you lament for the church? Do you lament for the church? Have you thought through in those terms? Yeah, absolutely. Every one of my prayers isn't just for the nation, it's for our homes. I mean, I'll call all, because you see it in our homes, right? You see there isn't leadership in our homes a lot of times in the parental role. It's kind of like, well, I just let my kids pick and choose and do whatever they want to do. I don't want to stunt their growth. And, you know, we see it in, we don't have that good, solid leadership in our schools, in our churches. So I go through, in my prayers of lament, it goes through the whole gamut of, you know, and it needs to start in our homes, right? Revival needs to start. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. It doesn't need to start in the church or in a conference. It needs to start in our homes. You know, people getting back to walking and talking with the Lord like they did in the garden. People need to get back to knowing the Word of God. I know so many Christians that do not know the Word of God. You know, and I think, this is our lifeblood, right? This is number one how we get to know the Lord, but number two, how we get to guide our life. And if you don't know the Word of God, or you're depending on that guy on the internet to tell you what it says, you know, and you can be so led astray. And I think that's why there's so much of that in the church. You know, these churches that are like, preach things, and I think, that's totally contrary to the Word of God. How do people not know that? But it's because they don't know the Word of God. It hasn't been a priority in their life, you know, to know what the Word of God says. You know, and He says, you're gonna be deceived. You have to know the Word of God. You know, you have to know the way the devil works. You have to know those things to keep from being deceived and keep, you know, being able to stand. But, yeah, I definitely, you know, we, we do an hour of prayer before church on Sunday morning of intercession. And we're interceding not just for our church, but we're interceding for the church. Because, you know, He, He starts always with the church. He always confronts the church before He confronts anybody else. He's always confronting the church. And so, you know, that's something that, that's a, I, I, I think I pray for the church every day. I don't know that there's a day that goes by that I'm not praying for the people of God to walk like the people of God. So that they can be different from the world. You know, so many Christians want to blur that line and they want to blend in, you know. And I don't think that's what Paul was talking about when he said, you know, if somebody eats food that's sacrificed, I'm not gonna make a big deal about it. I'm just gonna go ahead and eat it. I don't think he's talking about blurring the lines. He's talking about loving people where they're at, but still being a light, you know, to those people. And so, that, yeah, the church, it has to start in the church. Definitely, it has to start with God's people. If God's people don't get it right, you know, how do you judge the world if you're not even, if you're not even pursuing Him and pursuing righteousness and pursuing, you know. And that's where things really get blurred. Because like you said, when they kind of make it their own, well, yeah, I believe that kind of, sort of, but I don't kind of, well then, then you're open to all kinds of, all kinds of stuff that isn't right. Yeah, I was just gonna say, I think, just to add to that, I think that there's some interesting research coming out of, I think it's the Cultural Research Center, I think that's the right name of it, in Arizona Christian University. George Barna is there and he's doing research. And he's suggesting that something like 90% of Americans, it's a large percentage, I don't think that's the right percentage, but a large percent of Americans have what he would call a syncretistic worldview. In other words, an amalgamation, just like a Frankenstein's monster sort of worldview, where they take different parts of different worldviews and they just clob them all together. And, you know, the research is interesting in and of itself, but I think as I hear you talk and as we talk about issues like this, you start to see the rubber meet the road. Because when we can pick and choose which aspects of the Bible that we actually want to believe, which ones we're going to pick and, you know, which we're going to opt into and which ones we're just going to leave aside, we lose any sort of authority that we are supposed to be living under. And at the end of the day, you know, the disciples of Jesus Christ would be living under the authority of Jesus Christ. We can't really do that if we're unwilling to submit to the whole Word of God and only a part of it. So, just throw that in there. Yeah, our pastor, her son, Pastor Danny Slavin, actually said something yesterday at church that really kind of stuck with me and it's challenged me even this morning. I woke up and thinking about it, the word exalt, and it was actually like right after worship, somebody had kind of come to him and said that God had told them, you know, what the word exalt means. And like, do we think about that or do we really know what that means? And it really like convicted me. And then in hearing you guys talk about that, I think of like a buffet. You're going down a line, like you're saying, James, you're like, okay, I want this, this. I don't want that because that makes me uncomfortable or I don't like the way it tastes. I don't like the way it makes me feel, but I want this, this. Nope, I'm not gonna do that. I did it once before and I didn't like the way, you know, I think the scary thing even too is, Julie, like you were saying, it's not just the church or the people in the church, but there's actually pastors out there that are more afraid of offending or, you know, they're protecting the bottom line. They don't want people to leave, so they don't wanna push them too much. All these things that we're talking about have changed, but the Bible has not. And the word of God has not changed. And when he said about exalt yesterday, it means what God wants, not at all. We don't factor at all what we want. It's not about us. We should be giving our, you know, total 100% of our mind, our heart, our body, our soul to God, even when it's uncomfortable. You know, he never promised that we, it would be easy and that we can just kind of throw in the towel, like you're saying, opt out, James. I think that's a really good way to look at it in today's terms because we all at some point face those situations where we're like, I don't know if I wanna press into this. I don't know if I wanna post this on social media because I might lose some friends. We're more worried today about that and our appearance and how we're viewed by the world than God. And that's scary because, and then I'm telling you, I'm guilty of it sometimes and we should be more concerned about what God thinks than anybody else. What I would just say, Nate, I mean, I think it's important just to key in on what you just said

If you're going to follow me and many of his disciples left him that day, like we can't keep the hard message away forever. Right. And so just a really, yeah, very good points. Talk a little bit more, Julie, about what you're learning through these laments. I've always thought of lament as sort of a clarifying process where, you know, in Scripture, it almost always leads to praise. Right. I can't think of a time when it doesn't actually lead to praise. And so talk a little bit about how it's been clarifying for you and what this has done in your life and maybe the life of your prayer team and those folks who are doing it with you on Instagram and Facebook. Yeah, I think it, you know, lamenting is a, it helps you process sorrow, pain, confusion. It's that's that place that you can process through. Here's where we're at. And then I think that God becomes so big because we don't have to stay here. This is where we're at, but when, you know, he said he was looking for one man to stand in the gap so we wouldn't have to destroy the land. Right. And so he's just asking us, would you walk through this with me? Would you walk? Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Talk through what your land is experiencing, what your country is experiencing, what your homes and your schools and your kids are experiencing. And talk to me about how you feel, process this with me, and then let me show you who I am and what I can do. And so, you know, I didn't feel like when he asked me to do this 40 days of lament, it was just to complain and say how bad we are and not get a result at the end. You know, I felt like this was our chance to say, we're sorry. This isn't who we want to be. You know, we don't, in some cases, we don't understand how we got here. In other cases, wow, now we see how we got here. But in the end, it's, you can change this and you're the only one who can. You know, I can't vote for a God to change this, you know, and unfortunately, we put a lot of times people in positions as though they're God. If this person was there, it would change. If that person was there, it would change. If, you know, well, that's good and we should vote our, you know, our beliefs and for the person we think could help, you know, give us the best chance of change. But ultimately, if that person doesn't submit to the Lord, you know, I don't, they can't do a whole lot, but he can. That's what I know. He can, he can go in and he can destroy our enemies where we can't. He can take things out. He can make people's eyes be open to, oh my gosh, this isn't what I thought it was. You know, this isn't, so to me, it's a process where we're working through the sorrow and the disappointment of where we are to the place where, but God, you're so much greater and we've seen you do bigger things than this. I mean, you open the prison gates for Paul and Silas to walk out. You know, you, you can do things that, do we really believe he'll do them today? I do. I know a lot of people think, well, that was back, you know, I know that happened back then, but can he do it today? I believe he can do it today. I believe it's the same. And I believe that's what walking through this process of lamenting does. It does. It gives us the hope that in ourselves and in other people, it's a little bit hopeless, but not in you. Everything is possible with you. You're the God of the impossible, you know? And so it is. It's, that's, I've learned it is a process to, to get to that place that, but God, this isn't too big for you. You can do this. You know, when we humble ourselves and say, Hey, we're not dependent on that guy. We're not dependent on this woman. We're not dependent. We're dependent on you. Yep. But we have to put in the work like you're saying, you have to actually do it. You have to seek it. You have to actually sit with him and go through this process. Go ahead, James. No, I was just going to say, I mean, a couple of things come to mind as you were talking there with the idea that, you know, we think if we elect this person or that person, that things are going to change. It always strikes me that that's, you know, if we read James four, I believe it's verse 13, right? Now that's talking about what we're going to do. We're going to go here or there tomorrow and do this business and those kinds of things. And James warned people, look, don't say it like that. If the Lord wills is what you want to always add as the caveat. You always want to have this orientation that God is allowing these things to go on. And if God allows these things to go on, then these are, this is what will happen. But the reality is we could vote somebody into office who has a heart attack the next day. And then what do we do? And it always strikes me, you know, I, you were, you're reading through the prophets. And so Jeremiah 25 is always one that I go to when I think about the politics of today's world and the election and all those kinds of fun things, because so often we know what God's will is. We just don't know exactly where we are in moving from where, you know, our current state to where God desires us to be. And in Jeremiah 25, it's Nebuchadnezzar who is going to be his servant. He's going to come in and draw the Jews into exile because this needs to happen. Now he's going to punish Nebuchadnezzar later, but if you envision, you know, that situation, how many Israelites are really going to raise their hands and vote Nebuchadnezzar as their empire as their emperor? Yeah, not very many, but we always know that God is going to restore Israel, right? Because here's going to come Cyrus. Right. But at the end of the day, there has to be this time of refinement and difficulty for God's people. And I think that that's what we don't often catch sometimes, but it feels to me like lament sort of helps us tap into something that normally, you know, in our normal sort of way of thinking about this, you know, God wants our good. And so we should be doing this, this, and this, as opposed to taking that step back and really recognizing, oh man, there's a lot wrong with the world and here's how we're contributing. This is what God wants. He wants our repentance. He doesn't necessarily want our action first. He wants our repentance first. Right. Absolutely. How do you see, I guess all that leads me to this question. How do you see lament, you know, after the 40 days of lament that you're going through, how do you see lament sticking around for you and for your church and for like other people, right? Like, yeah. You know, I didn't realize it was lament, but back when COVID hit, funny, funny story. I retired January 31st and COVID hit in February. So, I mean, I didn't, I didn't have to worry about going to work and not going to work and I was, I was done. But it gave me a lot of time to sit and process what is going on, what is actually, you know, then there, there were the riots and, and I was just like, what is happening, you know, in our world, Lord, what, you know, cause I had people like pray that this stops and pray that, you know, and, and so I just sat with him and talked to him and he's like, I'm using this. Like, don't pray this away. You know, we tend to want to pray everything away. We tend to want to say, you know, when something bad happens to somebody, oh, make that stop. And, and he's told me before when I was praying prayers like that, when he was refining how I pray, he goes, don't, I can't answer that prayer. I'm using that very thing in that person's life to bring about a change in them. You know, pray that they hear me and they see what I'm doing and they submit to what I'm doing, you know, for that to happen. And it's the same thing that I walked through, you know, through COVID and then the 2020 election. And, you know, I mean, he was giving me prayers to pray and, and they were, I was lamenting for the church, the way the church was acting. She, during

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Well, when the 40 days end, is it going to really stop there? I don't feel like it is. I feel like it's just going to continue as a lifestyle of, you know, looking and seeing and saying, how did we get here and what do we do? You know, what do you want us to do? And where are we in the process? You know, like I said, I feel like we're already in judgment to a degree for what we've done and what we've allowed in and how we've let things sneak in and didn't realize it. But, you know, where are we at and when are we going to get to that place where, you know, and I hope, my hope is that as the church is praying this with me, that she starts to see this way of seeing things and walking through things and it not just being, you know, well, let's pray this away. Let's, we need to pray this away so we can get on and get, you know, because that isn't always his, you know, I always tell people, look at the disciples' lives. Would you trade places with any one of them? Like, did they have this great, wonderful, blessed life and nothing bad ever happened to them? And I don't see that. I really don't see that. I really see that they went through a lot of suffering and pain and to establish and to further the kingdom of God, you know. And we want to pray all that stuff away. And, you know, that's, I feel like prayer is more listening to God. Here's the situation. How do I pray? What's my part and what's your part? What are you trying to do? What are you wanting to do in this situation? Why is this happening? And asking more questions and listening to him more than it is us telling him what he needs to do, which is how I prayed for years. Yeah. It's really interesting. I mean, the, one of the previous guests we had on the show, she was, she pastors a church in Hawaii. And she talked about one of the practices that they do at their church is there are, they, she said she had stopped preaching for a while. And what they were allowing people to do was to come up and share their struggles. And they would have a time of corporate lament in their church. Yeah. And I found it so fascinating. And it, you know, I, I'm not advocating that people stop preaching in church. I think that's not the best idea. But I also appreciated the fact that she was willing to sort of take a break from it because it was getting in the way. Yeah. In other words, it wasn't getting to the root of what really needed to happen. Yeah. And once they recognized what really needed to happen, it's like, well, let's just do that. Yeah. I think there's something really powerful about lament that maybe we miss because we're just unwilling to engage in what's usually called theology's negative task, right? Looking out at the world and saying, there's something actually wrong here. It's not just something we should go ahead and live with. This is actually really, really wrong. And that doesn't lead us into any sort of lament. But I, I think it's just such a powerful, I always kind of have. I mean, I think it's just such a powerful practice that we've, we've got to start recognizing the way the world is not as it's, as it's supposed to be. Yeah. And then stop trying to fix it and actually start talking to God about it, which is the crucial part. Yeah. For those that are listening, Julie, that maybe this is a new practice for them or new way of thinking. They don't really understand lament. Like I I'll be honest, I didn't know as much as you two both do about it. But for the listeners right now, when they're hearing this, if they feel prompted to look further into this, is this something they could look and find you online and kind of go through? Can they start at a later time and kind of catch up or, you know, just start wherever they're at and go through the days? Is that something that they can do? Do you still take on new lamenters? Yeah, absolutely. You know, like I said, I was, I was hoping I would, that we could get, and, and we may have, because I have people from different states that are, that have said to me, I'm praying these prayers, you know, and other people sharing them with, you know, their, their friends. And, but yeah, absolutely. And I don't think it really matters when you come in. I, I see people that have prayed a prayer that I posted a week ago and I'm like, oh no, you, you know, I don't go, oh no, you can't do that now. We're on day, you know, that I, I think he, anytime we jump in, wherever we jump in and we start praying, that moves God's heart, you know? And so, and I think just praying the prayers and seeing prayer in a different light than always coming and asking, you know, that was my practice for way too many years, just coming and asking for things, but actually, you know, getting in tune with God's heart and, and walking through the process of, you know, how to do that. I would love anybody that wants to, I'm on, and I don't know what my things are. I'm not that big on social media, so I can't tell you, oh, I'm so-and-so. We can add it to the show notes though. Yeah, we'll find it. Yeah, we'll add it to the show notes. Okay. Yeah, so, but I am, I'm on just, just the only two I'm on is Instagram and Facebook. But I'm on both of those and I would, yeah, anybody that wants to. My prayers on Facebook, I know, are in public. I don't know how to do that on Instagram, so it's, it's under my followers. Somehow, I don't know how you change all that stuff. I'm, I can help you offline with that as well, if need be. Yeah. So anyway, but they, I would love to have anybody that would want to join. And like I said, I, I don't think it'll stop. I've posted a lot of prayers over the years on my social media and not really knowing, but a lot of them are lament, prayers of lament, you know, when I'm just sitting, talking to the Lord and I feel, I feel his heart for a situation, you know, then a lot of times I'll write up a prayer and post it. And so anyway, I would, yeah, be glad to have anybody join at any point in time. And I don't think it's ever too late or, you know, there's no formula. That'd be amazing because I think that's one thing that we hear all the time, me doing skate ministry. That's the biggest thing people would say is when they first, you know, accept Christ as their savior, they're like, I don't know how to pray or it can be intimidating to people. And I think, like you said, it's just learning to just sit and listen sometimes more. I think me personally, I want to like go, go, go and like do and like say the right thing. And, and sometimes it's just sitting and, and just listening to the heart of God. And that's been a challenging one for me. It's hard for me sometimes to sit and be quiet, but it says many times in scripture to just be still and listen. And I think we miss that sometimes. So, so anybody that wants to jump in, we can add that to the show notes. That'd be great. Awesome. Yeah, I'd love that. Well, I usually end these shows just asking every guest the same question. So I'll do the same thing here. What do you think the church needs to be thinking about today in order to be and make disciples more faithfully? Um, I think number one, um, more than preaching to people, I think we just need to live, live a life, um, before people. Let them see that we're different. You know, uh, I know a lot of people want to go out and just preach, preach, preach, preach, preach, or, you know, tell everybody what they're doing wrong or, you know, and I have found, um, with, with being an intercessor, I have found that probably 80% of what the Lord gives me an intercession isn't for me to go speak to anybody else. It's, I'm to pray it. I'm to live it. And then God opens opportunities for us to speak into people's lives. People come to us and just ask questions. And, you know, I need some guidance. Can I talk to you? And, you know, then you have a chance to, to pour into people. You know,

what does the word of God say? And rather than what did this person on the internet say or Dr. Google say or, you know, and so anyway, so to me, that's, that's what the church needs to, you know, she needs to be a light again. You know, the apostles, 12 of them turned the world upside down. And it wasn't because they were on Instagram or, you know, their message wasn't going real far. They were talking to a group of people, then they'd have to go someplace else and talk to another group of people. And I think that's what we need to get back to is that intimate relationship in order to disciple. Absolutely. I love that. Well, Julie, thank you for being here. Thank you for everything you're doing. We will figure out what your Instagram handles are and your Facebook and all that kind of good stuff. We'll put it in the show notes. I would just encourage people to, if you're not going to join with Julie, practice Lament Prayer on your own, like dig into this. It's such a crucial issue. And I think it's such an important practice that is having a little bit of a renaissance in the church right now. But I'd hate to say that, you know, Lament is going to become fashionable again. It just needs to become part of the warp and woof of who we are as Christians, part of what we do when we see that the world is not as it should be. And so my encouragement would be connect with Julie, jump into this 40 days of Lament and see how it goes. I think it's important to walk through it with other people. I think you'd learn so much more if you did it with other people. So we'll get the Instagram handles and Facebook stuff put in the show notes and and connect you with Julie and the 40 days of Lament. But thanks, everybody, for being here. Thank you very much, Julie, for being here. And we will catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Thanks. It's been a privilege and I've really enjoyed talking with you guys. Awesome. Absolutely. Thank you. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting and more. Are you seeking a deeper connection with God, but just can't seem to find time to make prayer a priority? Introducing Mindful Christian Prayers. Whether starting your day or winding down at night, this show is your resource for spiritual renewal. Each episode features short, guided prayers, scripture readings and moments of silence to help you reflect and connect with the Lord no matter how busy your schedule might be. Tune in now at lifeaudio.com or your favorite podcasting app to embrace the power of prayer and deepen your faith with Mindful Christian Prayers.