How Can Lament Transform Us?: A Conversation with Dr. Bryan Babcock, Pt 2

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome back to the second part of my interview with Brian Babcock on Lament. We're going to start with a little bit of a recap from the previous episode, just a small overlap between the last interview and this one. And then we're going to continue the conversation with Brian about Lament and talk about how this really can impact our lives as believers. So I hope you enjoy the second half of this interview as much as I did. Take care. So when we think about that, I mean, a third of the book of Psalms, that's like, I don't know, what is that? 50 or so? Probably somewhere in that range, right? If I'm doing math right. Oh my God, I'm not a mathematician, but I think that's right. 50 Lament Psalms. Do those, do you think, contribute to an overall understanding of what's really going on in this worship book of Israel or the prayer book of Israel, it's been called the situation of Israel across time? Or is it more, maybe it's both, but part of an individual human expression, just that our lives are sort of characterized by these things. How do you, how do you read that in the overarching book of Psalms, I guess is my question. No, I do. Because as Christians, we were raised, I think wrongly, and this is where, I mean, the church is wonderful, but it also, it has downsides. If we think about the big C church, there's this expectation, and which is what Russ had just talked to you about. There's this expectation that if we're doing the right stuff, great things are going to be happening in our life. And that if we're really good Christians, then we suck it up and we smile and we praise God. And yet a third of the Psalms are not that. I mean, a third of the Psalms are saying my life sucks and yet I still believe in God. And I think that where, at least the way I was raised, we didn't say stuff like that. You know, something bad happens, you go to church and you smile and you sing and you say, hey, my life is great because God's in it. And yet to be honest, there are times that we need to sit down with God and chew him out a little bit, I think. So when we look at prayer and a third of the Psalms are there, I think we have to be honest with God. That having a true, lasting, deep relationship with God is not always to say, oh, thank you for, you know, stubbing my toe. That feels so wonderful. But to say, this is where I'm at. This is what I feel. And to really be honest. I mean, there's this saying that says to cry is human. To lament is Christian. So when bad things happen to just people, you cry. You say, this sucks. My life is miserable. Or at least this aspect of my life is miserable. But what Christians then can say is that my God is greater than my current circumstance. And that really to me is the difference in a lament. It's not just complaining. It is first being honest with yourself and with God and complaining. It is to say, this is what's wrong in my life. But then to remember that God's character is consistent. And that if we look at what's happening in my life that is inconsistent with God's character, that I know he is true to his character and that he is going to meet me where I am and he is going to lead me out of this mess. I may not see it today. I may not see it tomorrow, but I know God is there. It's such an interesting idea. You know, we talk about having a relationship with Jesus Christ or relationship with God. But really, without lament, it kind of feels like we're walling God off from an aspect of that relationship. You know, we're keeping God at arm's length because what we really want is we want to have sort of a blessing relationship with God or a relationship with God where we only say nice things to him as if he's really fragile or something like that. You know, we don't want to hurt his feelings. We don't want to offend him. And it seems like what you're saying is we really do short ourselves. Without lament, we're sort of hiding those aspects of hurt and frustration and whatever else, whether right or wrong, right? I mean, I think we could feel frustration over things that we probably shouldn't feel frustration over, but the only way to get past those is really to let the frustrations out anyway. And so, yeah, when we think about that idea. Right, right. He already knows anyway. And so it really is about allowing God to participate in the fullness of our lives regardless of how raw that is. And I mean, I love the idea of that. You cry and, you know, crying is human. Lament is Christian because it does add that theological element in it. We involve God in every aspect of our lives. That's fantastic. Yeah. And if you look to biblical examples, I mean, Jesus used lament. Jesus cries out, why have you forsaken me? David, Paul, all of them talk about the agony of their lives. And so they're not sitting back going, oh, this is great. You know, Saul just kicked me out, but I feel wonderful about it. Instead, it's being honest. And I think that's part, just like in any friendship. If you're superficial, that's a superficial friendship. And we don't want a superficial relationship to God. We want God to know us. We want to know God. And the word is one way that we get to know his character. And being honest in our prayer is a way that he gets to know ours. Yeah. I think that's a good point. Let me take one more break for just a commercial, and then we'll come back. I got a couple other questions I think I want to probe with you. And I'll put you on the spot with some interesting questions, hopefully. We'll see if we can get through it. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. I love this whole idea of Lament. So give us just a minute. We'll be right back after this break. Hey, everybody. Welcome back. Okay, Brian. So I have some interesting questions on this. You know, in preparing to have you on, I read back through your chapter, but I also read a number of other things on Lament. And it kind of got my wheels spinning. And so I was thinking back on this time I was sitting in a meeting and we'd just come off a really great donation year, right? And people in the meeting are saying, oh, God has blessed us and this is fantastic. And God has blessed us. God has blessed us. And I just had this like sort of seed of thought in my head like if we'd had a down donation year, does that mean that God hasn't blessed us? Like, you know, those if-then statements, the opposite doesn't always have to be true. But sometimes it feels like whenever we've done things to do really, really well and gotten successful, that's God's blessing. And it can only be God's blessing. But we're going through something rough, right? We don't necessarily do that opposite side of it, kind of like Job's friends, right? What have you done wrong that you're experiencing God's turmoil? And so here's my question. When we're thinking about Lament and we're considering how it is that we can use Lament in a sort of communal, even just in our relationship with God, but also within the church, how do we avoid lamenting over things that really are just the normal hoes and hums of life, right? Versus, you know, I guess my question is, are there things that people really, are there things that really deserve Lament? That would be the question. Are there things that really deserve Lament and other things that really don't deserve Lament? Or is it just us being frustrated about anything and it—

Expressing that to God. Does that make sense? It does. And I love the question. It's not like you just throw little questions out. That's kind of a big question. No, I yeah, I thought we'd go big. Lots of different answers. I mean, I think the first one is, is anything too small for my relationship to God? And so if the Holy Spirit is placing on my heart that I am troubled, I take that to God. That's I mean, God, like any really close relationship that you have, wants to know what's on your heart. And so, you know, if it is my door is not opening or I don't know, pick a small thing. If it if it's a big thing to me, it's a big thing to God. So I would say there's nothing too small in order to have a lament as long as the Holy Spirit is leading it. So that kind of brings me to my second point, which is, you know, if if we are really in that close personal relationship to the Trinity, then the Holy Spirit is going to be guiding us and helping us to jump over the small things and focus on those that are important in our life. So do you think it has like a covenantal framing at all? I mean, you know, because when we read the ones in the Old Testament, right, like a lot of this has to do with, you know, sort of we have these blessings and curses that are laid out in the covenant. We we have promises from God that don't seem to be being fulfilled. We're waiting for something that just isn't there. You know, for Christians, we would have a very similar covenantal framework, depending on, you know, I suppose what theological stream you roll in. But I mean, in essence, we are still waiting for something and we're we're quote unquote suffering to varying degrees as we wait for that. And so the small things that we're suffering from, I hear you, those deserve lament. Do we need to fit those within a covenantal structure or maybe a covenantal structure is too geeky, but like an overarching biblical story where we understand not only where we are, but where God is taking us. And that anticipation of where God is taking us feels like it's taking too long. Yeah, that already and not yet kind of pull that we have. And that is one of the pieces of lament that I think is critical is that, you know, as we are expressing where where our pain and suffering is and perhaps where we're going and this is inconsistent with what I know God would want in my life. You then have to look to what is God's character? What does a fallen nature look like? I mean, we didn't talk about it, but and I didn't go into it in the book, but, you know, why? Why do we have suffering? Why do we have these things happening? And I think that that is really we have to acknowledge from a covenantal kind of framework that the world has fallen, that sin exists, that that suffering exists. And while those are not part of God's perfect plan, those are that's that's that not yet that we we sit in. And yet this is where lament comes back in as it says, I do know God's character. I do know my relationship to God and I do claim in a sense that with confidence, God is going to meet me here. And that's something that that I think is unique to the Christian community is that knowledge that that God sees me, God hears me and God will act for me. And that we know God's character. We know that God will meet us here. And then then really a lament prayer ends with giving thanks that, yes, where I sit is miserable, but I know God is going to act. And even though he hasn't acted yet, I can praise God because I know his character and I know he will. And that's that already not yet kind of pull. So we know a lot with the personal aspect of lament, right? Let's let's talk a little bit about the interpersonal aspect of lament. So the story you told about the gentleman who's sitting there rocking with his Bible and asking, why is this happening? I think I definitely can. And I think most people can sit back and say, yeah, that's a guy I could lament with and lament for. Right. Like this is through suffering in the world and we're seeing it. But then in my in my callous and cold, horrible heart. Right. You know, I can envision somebody lamenting over something and I'm just sitting there going, seriously, that's your problem. So I guess I'm wondering, you know, as we as we look at lament, it certainly binds us to God. But shouldn't it also bind us together? And what orientation should a non lamenter have to a lamenter? Right. To sort of create that that sort of bond and understand the that even though it might not be something I identify as lamentable, there's a way that I need to connect to this. No. And I think we can go to Joe for the non answer on this one is you look at Joe's friends and go, don't don't do that. Yeah. Yeah. Don't try to figure it out. Yeah. Don't try to do that. Yeah. Don't don't don't tell them. I mean, one of the worst things that I've seen is someone going, oh, it'll be OK. It's like, seriously, I'm sitting here bleeding and you're saying it's going to be OK. It's not that's not necessarily as helpful. And the Billy Graham Evangelical Association did some studies and granted, theirs are around disasters. But I think if you look at my life, there's been a few disasters that weren't, you know, hurricane related. So they they put together one statistic that I just thought was really meaningful is that 90 percent of people impacted by a natural disaster had serious issues before that disaster. So you could say that they were in turmoil, high degree of turmoil. And so what that means in looking at you, me and our neighbors, if you look around the room upwards of 90 percent of those people who are smiling back at you have something going on in their life that would be highly troubling. And that does that that surprised me. I thought, you know, 30 percent maybe, but 90 percent, nine out of 10 are in emotional distress. And so this BGA, Billy Graham Evangelical Association, put out a few things that you can say. And the first is really to come alongside somebody is giving your time and being vulnerable to them is essential. But they had questions like, how are you holding up? Where were you when it happened? And that has to do with the disaster. But what was it like? I cannot imagine how difficult this is for you. I mean, those types of questions, you know, do you have a church family? Can I pray with you? Can I just sit with you? I mean, those are all open ended questions that you can come alongside someone, even if you don't think that they're in crisis. Being open, being vulnerable and asking how they're doing, not telling them, not giving them a Bible verse, but but just being there with them, I think, is really important. And then prayer. I mean, prayer is something even well, one of the things that I find, whether it's in Gaza or whether it's in Ukraine or whether it's in Honduras, Christian, non-Christian doesn't matter. When someone's in crisis and someone's really suffering, they'll accept prayer. You know, they may not they'll say something like, I don't know if I believe in God, but yeah, you can pray with me. That'd be great. And so I find that especially when people have nothing, they have God. And I have found. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And then you're finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878.

All 888-958-6579. In my life, those times when I felt like I had nothing left, financially, emotionally, spiritually, any of that stuff, when it was all gone, all I could reach out to was God. And those were the times that God was the most visible to me. And so I recognize that when someone's in crisis, that may be a time that God's wanting to shout out to them. And so be available to that calling to help people know that God is there. Yeah. It's really interesting as you're talking about this. You know, I think the openness idea and really allowing people the space to share, right, as opposed to coming in with an answer or a word of comfort or something like that. But just allowing them the space to talk, like process it, I think is a really fantastic tip. Well, I have one more question, and this one might be, this will probably take the rest of the time, so here we go. All right, in the United States right now, we tend to have, some people call it like the oppression Olympics, right? The most oppressed person wins. And so I guess I'm wondering, how do you think about, or maybe how would the Bible speak to, lament as personally transformative? And here's what I mean about that. It seems to me that there are times when I would want to lament something and ultimately God would correct my perspective. In other words, not everything that I'm frustrated about is correct for me to be frustrated about or the correct framing for that. Does that make sense? And so just because someone is lamenting over it doesn't mean it's necessarily the correct viewpoint. But, you know, does the Psalter or does the Bible really speak to this shift in perspective of, oh, wait, I was focused on the completely wrong thing here, and now, you know, my perspective has changed. That's what a vibe. Yeah. No, I get that. And again, we come back to Job as a great example that Job is wailing at God and God says, you know, essentially, I'm paraphrasing God here, but, but who are you to question me? And I, I love that. And so, yes, in Lament, I keep coming, coming back to that personal relationship is that if we have a personal relationship daily, not, not just praying on Sundays, not just going to a prayer meeting on Wednesday, but if, if daily we are talking to God, then we're going to bring things up that are important to us. And then through the Holy Spirit and through God's word, we can then redirect. And I, and I think that it's important to one, not say, all right, I really feel lousy about this, but maybe this isn't something I should bring to God. And I, and I, so I would say, don't, don't limit and box in and say, this is too small. But with that, we then want to seek God's, we want to listen to, we want to, we want to talk, but then we want to be quiet. And what does quiet mean? Quiet means getting closer to the word, seeing how God is speaking into your current situation. Closer means listening to the Holy Spirit. How is the Holy Spirit guiding? And yes, there are lots of times that this may be bothering us, but it's really God saying, I don't want you to go there. There is danger if you head that way and I am closing that door, not so that you can suffer, but so that you can redirect and go a different direction. Yeah. It's that fine line between, well, I think it's that fine line between lamenting to hear from the Lord, to actually build that relationship versus lamenting and treating God like a genie in a bottle, right? Like lament is automatically going to solve all my problems because when I bring a lament to God, he has to listen or something like that. And I think the way you're phrasing it, that sort of more nuanced feel to it is, no, we lament so that God understands how we feel and that's an authentic relationship. But ultimately, lament is only the first part of it. We then have to also hear, listen for God's response and ultimately conform to what he's telling us. He's wanting to help us through this in part by changing who we are. And that's the part where we have to be attentive and listen to him. No, and I think that that's a great point because meeting us where we are is not necessarily granting our wish. It is either changing our perspective, which is a pivot, or changing our circumstance, which is a pivot. But both are, we know God is going to act, but in which way? And we're just kind of trying to remain open to what he's doing. And to go back to Job, you know, Job kind of gets both. He gets the, who are you to ask me questions? And then he has a lot of what he had previous to his suffering restored. You know, so he gets a little bit of both. But man, this has been a fantastic conversation. I mean, I, again, as I read your chapter, as I've kind of looked through Lament stuff, and it's an area that I didn't specialize in at all. So I I've enjoyed getting more and more familiar with it and just appreciate you having you on, man. This has been great. Any place you want to direct folks so they can catch up with you or anything like that? Amazon author webpage, you know, that kind of fun stuff. Where do you want them to go? Send you a note, man. That's no. Yeah. The Amazon author page is a great way to reach out to me. I think in the back of the book, there is actually a way to reach out or, you know, reach out to you and I know you'll put them in touch with me, but I'm happy to answer any questions that folks have as they read through Lament and as they kind of work through the songs. Very cool. Well, Brian, thanks for being here, man. Really appreciate it. It's great to catch up with you. I know I catch up. I keep up with you on Instagram and stuff like that. So I kind of see where you go and what you're doing. But we don't get a lot of chances to talk. And so this has been fantastic. Really appreciate you being on. James, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Well, thanks, everybody. And look forward to the next episode of Thinking Christian. So thanks for listening and we will see you next time. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to LifeAudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. If you're tired of parenting advice and news headlines that are more confusing than assembling IKEA furniture, we've got just the podcast for you. My dear friend, Abby, and I are here to help you navigate the parenting roller coaster. Should your kids be on social media? What should you tell a friend facing an unplanned pregnancy? 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