From Pain to Praise: Thinking Christian about Lament wtih May Young

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I am joined here by a special person who contributed to our volume, A Praying People. And she works at Taylor University in Upland, Indiana. And she contributed a chapter in the book Lament, A Journey from Pain to Praise. And so I'm excited to welcome Dr. Mae Young. How are you, Dr. Young? It's good to see you. Yes, I'm doing well. Thank you for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Tell us a little bit about, I know academic career, you know, we're filming this December 14th. And so my guess is you're just finishing up the semester. So what did you teach this semester? What's your normal kind of, what are your favorite classes, I suppose? And are you teaching any of those? Sure. Well, I'm wrapping up this semester. And right now I was teaching Hebrew language, like the first semester. So that's always fun. I, you know, students come in not even knowing how to read the alphabet. And they come out and they're translating sentences right now. So, which is great. It's part of like, we have two years of Hebrew, biblical Hebrew at Taylor. So that's always nice. And that fulfills like language requirements for a BA for our students. So some of our students are Bible majors, some of them are not. And they just want to learn a little bit more about biblical Hebrew and using language and reading the text. Another class that I'm teaching is the Hebrew prophets. So kind of walking through the prophets with students. So getting, it's surprising. I feel like a lot of times people in the church don't really know a lot about the prophets. Well, the Old Testament, they're probably not as familiar as the New Testament, which is sad because I love the Old Testament. But Hebrew prophets seems to be something that, you know, a lot of people don't really, are not as familiar with. And so we go through that together. So that's another course. And then I teach Historic Christian Belief. That's sort of like a cross between historical theology and systematic theology. So kind of walking through, you know, just some of the core doctrines, Trinity, Christology, Soteriology. It's one of our main biblical core classes at Taylor. So that's just one of the ones that I enjoy teaching as well. Another course that I have taught in the past, but I'll be teaching more regularly, will be like Hebrew poetry and wisdom literature. So I haven't done that for a little bit, but I'll be picking that up again. And because I'm the program director in biblical studies, so I get like a course release to do some more administrative stuff, I guess. And so, yeah, I'll be always fun. But I'm going on a J-Term trip. Administration ranks right up there with grading, right? I mean, it's like grading and administration are almost tied for last place of what's enjoyable in higher education. That's so true. That's so true. But in J-Term, which is coming in January, it's our January term. I get to co-lead right now this year a trip with students to Greece and Italy. So that'll be fun and walking in the footsteps of Paul. Yeah, that sounds horrible. Yeah, I was just over in Germany. I took a German trip and got to, it was just my wife, but so I was the horribly inept Reformation guide while we were over there. And yeah, it was a lot of fun. We did Wittenberg. We did Berlin. And then we hit Munich and we're really mostly in the Nuremberg area. So a lot of fun. Yeah. You know, I find us Old Testament folks need to stick together because, you know, I did, we found out in the pre-interview, we did our, we both did our PhDs at Trinity. That's right. And so you were under Dr. McGarry, right? That's right. And what was your dissertation in? You don't have to go into the whole thing, but I know mine has a really long, unfortunate title that no one really even wants to read. But what was your dissertation on? Mine was actually on the book of Lamentations. So it's on the topic of Lament. Yeah. Yeah. You've been doing that for a while then. Yeah. Yeah. So I've been, yeah, I've been working on Lamentations and Lament and that topic. So Lamentations, my, I was looking at a lot of like the poetic devices in the book and how they function together, sort of like a matrix system. And then Dr. John Monson was my second reader for that as well. So. Yeah. And we also both know him. I, I, John at Wheaton College when I was there. So fantastic guy. Kind of small world, right? Especially for folks in the Chicagoland area. That's right. Trinity is just such a great spot. Shameless plug for our alma mater here. Ted's just had such a great faculty, especially when I was there. All the Old Testament folks were excellent. Oh yeah. Wonderful. You know, obviously the systematics folks are great. I didn't know much about the New Testament folks, but they don't, you know, they don't do much. Yeah, they're great too, I guess. But so tell us a little bit about maybe Lamentations. I think, you know, just like you said with the prophets, I'm guessing a lot of people aren't as familiar with Lamentations as they might be. It doesn't read quite as easily as something like Romans or Philippians might. And so how would you, how would you talk about approaching Lament or Lamentations, the book, from a Christian? Let me ask you a serious question. 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If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Well, I think that the book of Lamentations is different because it's poetry. So you're going to have a lot of imagery. There's a lot of poetic devices. There's, you know, even in sentence structure, just the number of voices that are present and that it's an acrostic. So acrostic meaning, you know, every, you know, for our listeners, that every sentence, every paragraph or, you know, stroke or, you know, however you want to see it, it begins with one of the letters of the Hebrew alphabet. And then it's progressive. So actually four of the chapters in Lamentations are acrostic. The last one is not, but it has 22 lines in that last chapter, which some people think correspond to the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet. So, but, you know, and so they see it as more of an, you know, almost implied acrostic, I guess, with the share number. I don't subscribe to that, but, you know, so, but it's a very highly structured book. But I think, I think it really gives voice to pain and suffering that you can see there. And so even looking at that, the ability for us as believers when, you know, we experience pain or when we see other people experience pain or we hear about that there is room for us to give voice to pain. And even turning to God, even when it seems hopeless or even when he seems, you know, for, for Lady Jerusalem, she acknowledges her sin, you know, so even after, you know, if there's situations where we feel.

like we've seen as well, that there's still room for us to turn to God and really even to mourn our pain and to mourn our circumstances and that we can still wait and press in. And that's actually an act of faith. So I think, you know, Lamentations is really a testament to an act of faith in the midst of pain and turning to God and not necessarily seeing a resolution because the book itself doesn't end clearly with a resolution, but it ends on waiting on the Lord. And so I think sometimes with lament, there's a sense of waiting and we, we sort of, I think living in a world today, we want instant results. We want God to answer us. We want the pain to be taken away and we don't know how to wait sometimes on the Lord in hope. And so I think Lamentations is a testament to that and helps us to see that. What I found in my research was that even the very structure of the book sort of mirrors the process of lament in terms of voices and how, you know, there's a progression and how sometimes when we're in our pain in the beginning, we're just so stuck with our own perspective. But as we have more voices, you know, coming in that we allow ourselves to be more open to even a communal voice. And that's how the book ends with a communal lament, with people lamenting together. And so, and then, you know, coming together and waiting on the Lord together. So there's some kind of like a movement in that as well. Yeah. You know, when you're talking, it sort of strikes me, you know, one of the things I just, I had on the program, a guy who specializes in Ecclesiastes, Russ Meek. And he talked about, you know, Ecclesiastes is in some ways not lament, obviously, but it's dealing with the tension of everyday life and the, maybe we could call it the unfulfilled expectations that often people can feel about, like, why isn't my life better? I'm a pretty good person or I'm doing justice and righteousness in Old Testament language and life just doesn't seem to be working out for me. And, you know, between these two conversations and what you just said, I think one of the things that always is of interest to me when people look at the Old Testament, it's like, well, Old Testament is an old book. We're really in Christ. And so what we really need is the New Testament. But I think, you know, while a lot of these things sort of culminate and center in Christ, we're still a people who are waiting. Like, we still need to understand how to wait, how to anticipate, because what Christ started hasn't been finished yet. And so we still go through a lot of suffering and pain. And so it just strikes me that Lamentations would have such strong application to present day. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, and I do think that, along with the Psalms, you know, is, you know, showcasing too that, you know, there's just a very emotional element to our faith that sometimes is uncomfortable maybe for us in the West because we've become maybe more independent and more, I guess, stoic in some ways. I don't know. And as we approach it and almost like within the church, like how do we, how are we more, how can we be more expressive in our relationship with the Lord? And I think the Psalms and Lamentations really model that for us. I think that's fair. I think it's interesting. I mean, it's almost like we're a little more Spock and a little less Kirk if you're into Star Trek. But I also think that, you know, the expression we're comfortable with seems to be less despairing and more happy and joyful. And, you know, I could sing of God's love forever as opposed to sort of the, what I think some people might construe as wallowing, you know, and just sort of pity and frustration and hopelessness in Lamentations. And so I'll be interested to dig into that a little bit because obviously you wrote the chapter on lament and prayer. And I'm not sure that lament is a common practice within the church today. And so why don't we take just a quick break here and then when we come back, we can talk about the connection between lament and prayer and maybe even some of the characteristics of lament within what could be Christian prayer. So we'll be right back and we'll talk about that. Hey, everybody, welcome back. Here with Dr. Young and we are talking about lament. And so before the break, we were going to talk and discuss a little bit about the connection between lament and prayer. So tell us about the chapter you wrote for Praying People a little bit and then maybe we can get into a more general discussion about lament. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Sure. So the chapter that I contributed, it's actually focusing on lament and prayer, but more specifically that lament is actually a journey. So it's a journey from pain to praise. So it's not just, it goes antithetical to the notion of it being just wallowing in our sadness. And so it's not just, you know, lamentation is not the end itself. So we're not just here to lament and seeing it as the end. It's actually to move us forward in our journey to even bring us to greater hope. So that's kind of what we see in a lot of the laments in the book of Psalms and even in the structure of the book of Psalms in general. And so that's kind of what I cover in the book, how there's actually more psalms of praise in the beginning of the book of Psalms with and moving to, or actually more, I'm sorry, the reverse, more laments in the beginning and then more praise at the end. So you're moving from laments to more praise, even in the book of Psalms itself. Of course, you know, it's not a clear cut, you know, number of Psalms, but definitely if you were to look at the number of lament Psalms towards, you know, the beginning of the Psalter, there's a progression that culminates even in, you know, the concluding chapters of, you know, five phrases, you know, in that way as well. So, so my, my chapter talks a little bit about how it moves from the structure of the Psalm itself, having more laments and moving towards the direction of praise. And of course it's also, you know, in some ways a cyclical event too, of how, you know, in life, you know, it's not always just a straight trajectory from lament to praise, you know, but there's always, you know, coming back and forth in that way too. But there's just movement in that way. And then I move into how, even in the structure of lament Psalms, there's different elements in that have been identified in scholarship on lament Psalms itself, like five different elements. So I walk through those elements in my chapter. And then I, I, you know, finish off with an example of Psalm 13, how it contains those elements. And so a lot of the elements that are present and they're not present in all the lament Psalms, but most of them contain them and not necessarily in the same order, but a lot of them have the, you know, address to God, you know, a lament to praise or a complaint section, motivations and then confession of trust or being heard, assurance of being heard, and then a bow of praise. So kind of a, sort of a progression in that. And sometimes, you know, it's not always, you know, a clear trajectory, but they do contain some of these elements as well. Do you think, I mean, you know, as you look at that progression, do you think that, because I mean, the Bible never, to my knowledge, really never talks about here's how you lament and here's why lament sort of leads to praise. This is, you know, and so there's a part of me that wants to say, this is probably like all these different examples in this movement from lament to praise is intended to be almost prescriptive, right? Like, don't just sit in the pain of life, but move toward praise of God. But then there's also a side of me that wonders if it's more of a descriptive kind of idea that as we're authentic before the Lord, as we're honest before the Lord, this is inevitably where these things sort of move. Like, what's your, what's your thinking on that? Yeah. I mean, I think it's both. I mean, just like when we think about, you know, the Lord's prayer, you know, that we pray those elements, like there's a sense of, you know, how we do. Those are the elements in our life that we want to lift up to the Lord. But at the same time, there's also.

Prescription in that too that we model in that way too. So I would say, you know, since, you know, the book of Psalms is really a book of prayers and, you know, even a book of hymns and a book of, you know, that it's modeling it for us, but it's also showing us to what happens as we lament um in the life of the psalmist um as well. So I think there's an element of both to that. I think it's interesting as we, you know, your comment about the Psalms and there being more lament Psalms at the beginning than there are at the end. I mean, for one, I think a lot of people wouldn't ever notice that because the Psalms are a fairly large book and, you know, sitting down and counting them is gonna be challenging, right? Um but it also just sort of strikes me that there may be something there that points to um a hole in the way that we tend to deal with our Christian lives today. Like I'm not sure that I see the Christian church having a sufficient amount of of lament maybe to lead us into praise. I know that's not the only way to get there, but I mean, how would you, how would you sort of counsel the church, I suppose, right, through that Psalter? Does it, does it actually teach us a lesson or is it just a structural observation? Well, you know, I, I do think that in the church, um, and I've, I've written this some other places as well, but I, I feel like um maybe there's a culture of triumphalism within the church because for myself, I grew up in a church that really never talked about lament. And so I didn't really understand what that concept was until I started, you know, um actually going through a very difficult time in my life and then I started, you know, um researching into this topic alone. Thankfully, you know uh more people are exposed to the concept of lament today just uh, you know, since we've gone through so much as as a people and as a nation. But um but I feel like within the church, there's always been more of like testimonies that come after people have overcome uh difficult periods. So we don't really, and that's what I mean by this culture of uh triumphalism, so that a lot of the testimonies we hear is like this person has struggled and then, you know, they were delivered or they've overcome and they're doing great now. You know, so there's a real sense of deliverance, a sense of, you know, doing. And so it leaves a lot of people not, you know, having an expectation that they need to move into this place of like overcoming and almost like very quickly or like, or something's wrong, you know, God's not, you know, delivering them or, or what do we do with this pain? And so there's not, and so we don't really hear people who are in the midst of it, which is unfortunate for a long time, people don't really talk about it. So we don't hear about people really struggling and not really having a resolution to it, but we always hear about people who've struggled and have resolved things. And so we aren't, we're not really shown this whole process of lament or what it looks like when things don't get better or when the next day is just as tough as today. Um how do we, you know, how do we, how do we navigate that as believers? And, and so I feel like there's a lot of people who almost feel ashamed that they're struggling or ashamed that they're, you know, still grieving or still feeling these things and there's not a real uh sense of, you know, openness. And in fact, when I, I taught about lament um overseas before for a course, there were some students who would say, you know, it's hard for leaders to admit their struggles because there's judgment. You know, people judge them, they feel judged, or people. So it doesn't really, it's not really giving that a place of honesty for people to really show. I feel like it's almost like the church is a place where we put our best foot forward. And so I hear people say, well, you know what? I, I'm just not up to going to church today. You know, I just, I don't, you know, like, what does that, why, why do we have to be up to go to church, you know? Um and so, but I, I do hear that a very often or, you know, I just don't feel like, you know, really good, so I'm not gonna go to church today. Um and so like almost like as if church is only a place where we go when we feel good and we feel ready to show the world that we feel good, you know? Or, you know, so allowing that some room maybe uh for the church to, to do a little bit more um giving places for people to lament, even during the service, it would be helpful, too. It's such an interesting thing to think about though, the, um, you know, so, I mean, first, I talk about this a lot on the podcast, like I love lifting weights, like I, I enjoy working out and, you know, there is a sense in which no pain, no gain, right? The pain is just part of the process and you have to put the effort in and there's that, that sort of work and um effort that you're putting in that ultimately leads to something down the road that is beneficial for you. Um and I think that if we don't appreciate that work, right, especially, you know, if you don't appreciate the work in the weight room, you kind of go in there and just are lackadaisical and just hope, you know, that you get the results you want. It's like, well, that's not realistic. Um and I think there's some sort of loose analogy there with lament, too. You know, if, if the pain is relegated to something that we really, you know, just want to get out of, Right, as opposed to something that we should live in, appreciate to some degree, um recognize as part of a growth process, like a progression in our faith, I think it opens us up to a lot of different sort of maladies. Like you could see, you know, instead of lament, do we just get sort of complaining, you know, in the more common uh contemporary vernacular. You know, instead of instead of lament, do we just get people hiding their sin, hiding their, you know, there's all these different things that I think could arise that that lament would be really great for. Yes. But because we're not practicing it now, what we're seeing is the sort of cracks that are created when we put aside a really important practice. That's right. That's right. And this is where I say that, you know, lament really is an act of faith. You know, it's, it's an act of faith because um we're turning to God, you know, in our pain and in our complaints, even. I mean, you see that in the psalmists, they're, they're turning, and that's, that's the whole, you know, people are like, well, isn't it wrong to complain, you know, you know, how about the Israelites in the desert and, you know, but, you know, that kind of complaint was they weren't complaining to each other. They were complaining, they already made a decision on what they thought about God, you know, and they were complaining, you know, but but in lament and, and complaints towards God, you're, you're actually coming to God, you know, you're not, and it's a, it's a faith. It's kind of like if you have a good friend or even in your marriage, you know, you're not going to go and complain about your wife, your friend, that that's not really helpful. Um, but when you come to your wife and you actually, you know, are honest with your feelings, that actually brings intimacy, you know, you're able to be honest, you're able to work it out, you're able to, you know, and it's those, it's the people that you feel closest to that you can feel like you can be vulnerable and you can show them warts and all. And that's really what, you know, when we're, when we're lamenting, you know, we're showing too that there's a dimension in our relationship with God, that there's a closeness and that we can, we're pressing into him uh in our pain. We're pressing into him when our life is not, you know, uh looking like the way that, you know, we feel like it should even, um and so there's a, like a disconnect from our theology and what we're living out. And so we can bring it up and, you know, bring to God, you know, the promises of God and, and really stand in that. So it's kind of like a, a sense of, you know, uh hope and uh trusting in God and bringing this and just being honest in the midst of our, our lives. I think that's great. Um let me take a minute, take a little bit of a break and we're gonna come back and talk a little bit more about lament. Um but uh give us just a few minutes, we'll be right back. Hey everybody, we're back. We're gonna be talking about lament a little bit more, and I just, I had a question about this. Uh I, it's something I, I think about a fair amount, you know, a lot of times when I'll experience pain in my life, I have an idea of what's causing that pain, uh, of what I actually want to have changed, why this is coming about. And um I'm wondering how do we formulate both individually and maybe even corporately, the content of lament? Like what's our focus as we're doing it

what are things that are addressing our community? And of course, the things that we address issues today are different from what we see in the Old Testament, of course. And so sometimes, you know, some issues that might be, you know, looming in our churches on a corporate level, and maybe it's some people who think that, and there might be some disagreement on that end. But I think if the church is bringing it out in the open and lamenting it, I think it opens up for conversation, for real conversation. And I think only in that kind of real conversation can we actually move forward. It doesn't mean that everybody has to agree, but I think that we're, instead of sweeping it under the rug, there could be a sense of, you know, coming together and acknowledging and also working together and a real sense of humility before one another as these issues are brought up. And I think that's important. And, you know, it's not always going to be pretty when we come to lament, whether it be individual or on a corporate level. I mean, and some of this, you know, we see even in the scripture, you know, some of the wrestling that we see in the prophets, some of the wrestling of, you know, God, why have you forsaken me? Some of, you know, it's not always, you know, it's not always necessarily true, you know, but it's something that we experience and it's okay to bring that up in the light of community and the light of the Lord and allowing God and the Holy Spirit to move us in the right direction as well. It's interesting you say that, I mean, now that you're talking through it, when I was a dean, I, I was a dean when Donald Trump got elected and a lot of the minority students on campus organized a corporate lament. And so as a new dean, I decided it would probably be good for me to go and just be there. And I will say it was definitely eye opening for me as someone who has never really been a huge political animal. I didn't, you know, wasn't really thinking in those terms at all. I mean, just to hear what the students were saying and to experience the emotion that they were feeling around the issues, right. It goes beyond sort of a, we have political disagreements and we all understand that sort of vibe. It was, it was very much like, whether, whether their fears were ever realized or not, they were real fears. Like their, their emotions were very real. And I do think, you know, just again, hearing you give that answer, it sort of took me back to that place where I was like, yeah, it did open me up to these other people, not in the sense that I agreed with everything, but in the sense that, wow, they're feeling this pain. And so how should I now, you know, sort of reconfigure and rethink the way that I interact and the way that I speak, what I talk about, how I work with that in order to build them up as members of the body of Christ. Yes. Yeah. And that's so important. I think that comes in, like when you look at the book of Lamentations in chapter one, one of the reoccurring refrains is that there was no comforter for her. So really what lady Jerusalem was looking for was someone to witness her pain because she wanted someone to understand and see her pain. And there wasn't any person. And so here, you know, as, as a body of Christ, you know, we're called to hurt with those who hurt and rejoice with those who rejoice. And so like when we hear the pain of our brother and sister to come along, to be a witness is in many ways, a comfort for them. We don't, we don't realize that, but that really, you know, you're standing alongside with someone in that way. And so there was a quote, I think that, you know, when you have two people sharing the pain, the load gets lighter, you know? And so, so you don't have to carry it all by yourself. And so it's not necessarily us agreeing, but actually seeing someone, seeing someone in pain, witnessing to that really brings a sense of comfort to that too. And that's, that's, that's where, you know, sometimes when people are going through deep suffering, you don't even have to say anything with them. You could just sit there with them to be, you know, presence, that ministry of presence, that witnessing of the things that they're going through. Yeah. I think lament has that potential to sort of bring us together in ways that we're not recognizing at all. And I, you know, just again, as you're speaking there, I'm thinking back on the book of Job, right, where you see Job in this really deep lament, wondering what God is doing to him. And then his buddies come around and they're like, Listen, you just got this all wrong. And they're trying to, not really trying to solve his problem. I mean, they're, they're, I guess they're okay with Job's suffering, but they're trying to give him like the recipe for moving from, you know, lament, you know, being destroyed basically to not being destroyed. And Job's just like, what the heck? Like, this is not what I, this is not what I was hoping for from you guys. Like, you're not even hearing me, right? I'm the righteous sufferer and you're trying to tell me just to repent. Like that doesn't even make sense. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of lessons here that we could look at from a lament perspective. So, have you, you know, you talked about, and I grew up in the same churches probably, or I went to similar churches that didn't really talk about lament at all. I'm wondering if you've ever experienced lament within a church context. And if so, sort of what you might suggest for churches who are just wanting to dip a toe into the lament space. What does this really look like for a church to do this? Well, I've been to churches where they've, you know, incorporating maybe even in times of worship, you know, some lament songs so that, you know, people who are not necessarily ready to praise, can actually be, you know, more meditative, you know, and even allowing for that. So some space within the church to allow for that. That's something small, or even during times of corporate prayer to give room and silence for those who are dealing with, you know, a real tough time and giving them space to talk with the Lord on that. because sometimes people, you know, we talk about lament, but people don't know how to even lament when they're on their own. So when they're in a corporate setting to, you know, even allow them to have that space to be honest with God, and just come before him. And if it's, it's only silence, it's only silence, but you know, maybe giving him some space and, and walking them through what that might look like for them personally, helping them in that way too. I think that those are just helpful. Or, you know, if there's a larger issue that has been dealt with, within the church, I've been in an institution where, you know, there was a lament service and some of the things that had happened, that was tough in that particular institution, they were able to lament together. And so many people felt after that service that it was just healing because it was, it was acknowledged and these issues were brought up into the open. And so people can feel a sense of freedom to even, you know, mourn the losses or, you know, mourn the frustrations or some of the things that had happened instead of just, you know, moving forward. And so that actually gave room for people to move forward because this was acknowledged. It's, it's almost like sometimes in a relationship, when you know something's wrong and nobody says anything and you just move forward, it's just gonna be awkward for, you know, but when you bring it back up and you're saying, Hey, you know, these things had happened, maybe it wasn't handled the best way, you know, or maybe how could we hear you better? You know, even a relationship that helps you to move forward, you know, in the relationship itself. And so even as a community, you can move forward instead of just moving awkwardly. Like, I don't know, you know, so people feeling a sense of loss or lostness or something like that. So I think my, sort of my last round of questions here, I won't say the last questions because it probably won't be the last one, but my last round of questions. We, you know, you talked earlier and you talked about lament and its relationship to patience, right? Sort of waiting on the Lord and that breaking through and praise. Sometimes what I, what I see happening is, let's call it lament, right? A complaint is raised, right? Either to God or others. And then there's an expectation for immediate action. So in other words, we've, and again, in the sense that we've lost true lament, right? Yes. We tend to view this as almost like comment cards that come in and we say, this isn't right for me, and so I need somebody to fix this for me. And if it's not fixed, then I'm just, I'm going to have to put more in the complaint box, right? That's right. And so I'm wondering like how, how close is the connection? Like two questions, maybe. Number one, is there a connection between lament and action that we should be aware of and understand? And then is there, is lament really just that patient process of waiting on the Lord and recognizing that he will be faithful, whether that's through his people or what have you? And so really the question is about lament and action. Like how are those

And I do think that it's different in every situation. So I wouldn't say there's like, you know, a cookie cutter formula for that. But I do think that when we're lamenting this kind of expectation, kind of like you said, you know, that those things should be set aside and just really waiting for the Lord, that maybe there is action that he will prompt us to do as well. You know, so some of that comes there too, but there's some also just a willingness to press in to God. So like for, for myself, you know, I went through a real, and this is what kind of was sort of a catalyst for me to be even interested in lament. I, when I was younger, so I had, I'd gone through a divorce due to unfaithfulness of my spouse. And through that experience, it felt like in one day, like my life was just turned upside down and I didn't know what to do. And I felt like I was at a complete loss and, and I was just hoping the next day would just like be fixed. Everything would be okay. But like walking through that journey and every day, like nothing's changing, but it's still staying where it's at. Like, you know, I could have easily said, you know what, forget this. I'm just going to walk away. But at those moments, I felt like there was, I had no one else, but the Lord. And so it's like, I just pressed into God and I just like, you know, sometimes it was just crying. Sometimes there was no action whatsoever. All I could do was utter prayers of tears and just being in his presence. And then there was moments where, you know, I just felt like, you know, God was saying, you know, you need to forgive. And there's moments where, so, so it's kind of like a, it's kind of lament is almost like coming before God in honesty, but also waiting on God and pressing into that relationship that we have with God. And so I, I know a lot of people who've gone through really hard times. They say that was probably the sweetest time. And it was the toughest time, but also the sweetest time in their relationship with God. Because, you know, it's like when you have nothing but the Lord, he becomes that solid rock. And so, you know, and so it's not, not so much like, you know, as you wait, it's almost like you are pressing into that relationship. And there's moments where he will prompt you to do things, but it's not like a formula. It's just kind of, you know, uh, recognizing that he is there. He is our rock. He's our fortress. He's, and there's a special closeness in the midst of our pain that he understands and he's with us in there. He sits with us in there. And so there's moments where it is sitting and just waiting. And there's moments where, you know, we need to, uh, you know, move forward, you know, sometimes, you know, the Lord will prompt us and say, you know, for myself, the Lord was saying, you know, you need to go back into this community and be a part of that and let them love you. And so like hearing the Lord in the midst of that pain, in the midst of that pressing in, I think is so important. So it's not just, you know, looking, um, belly gazing at our sorrows, but really, you know, bringing it before the Lord and, and, and, and allowing that to grow our relationship with the Lord. Well, in thinking about it like that, you start to understand the significance then of corporate lament of actually joining with others in their pain. Because if we're all sort of waiting on the Lord and we're all joining in that person's lament to the extent that we are capable, I think it becomes far less, uh, likely that we are going to come up with our own random solution to help this person out. Or we're going to try to, you know, reason through the pain, you know, like, Hey, this really shouldn't hurt as bad as you think. Look, here's the, you know, like, um, I think if we were all sort of joined together in it, it does give it a whole different context where we're all now crying out to the Lord for this solution. It binds us together in a way that, um, we wouldn't be otherwise. Right. I mean, I, I just think the whole thing is sort of fascinating to think through how is it that we can join with our brothers and sisters in Christ, not in celebration, Hey, you've overcome this, but in despair and anticipation that you will overcome this, that we're all going to be involved in some way, but we're not sure what that way is yet. Right. Right. Right. You know, we're just all going to be open to the prompting. I think the individual experience and the corporate experience, um, kind of mirror each other a little bit. Yeah, I think so too. I think, and, and I think there's something too that when people have walked through that journey with you, that, um, that also increases the intimacy within those relationships as well. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been great. Um, we're coming up at the end of our time. And so I want to give you the opportunity to talk about, you mentioned your book. Um, what should folks be looking for? Um, do you have a timeline on that? I kind of know how I kind of know how publishing goes. And so a loose timeline when everyone's the book's supposed to be, uh, done and out. Sure. So the, the book is coming out. It should be coming out in 2024. So next year, uh, in the winter, probably. Um, so, uh, called a recovering biblical lament. That's the tentative title right now. Um, so we'll see, but it's with inner varsity press, um, with that. And, uh, it's just a book about, you know, uh, lament and also looking at specific examples of, you know, lament and, you know, during times of anger or, you know, loneliness. And, um, I, I want to put examples too of different people who've walked that journey, um, in there. Okay. Well, I, I think, uh, I'm going to link people to your, uh, faculty page at Taylor University. Um, and, uh, and so people can keep up and hopefully, uh, whenever the book comes out, maybe you can come back on and talk a little bit more about lament and the book. And it'd be fantastic to have you back. I really appreciate the insights you shared today. Um, lament is such a, it's one of those topics. I mean, as an old Testament guy, I did mostly historical books and dipped into the prophets, right? And so you sort of skim over. Um, it was just like when I was talking to Russ Meek about ecclesiastes. I'm like, this book is like a mystery, even to people who, and even to many people who are old Testament scholars. And I feel kind of the same way about lament. It's not something that, uh, everybody specializes in. And so I just, uh, I'm very, really grateful, um, that you're doing this work and grateful for your contribution to, um, a praying people. And, uh, so yeah, if you want to read more, um, you can pick up a praying people. We'll link that in the show notes. And if you want to check out more, um, from Dr. Young, I'll link you to her university page at Taylor university. And thanks so much for being on. It was a pleasure talking with you about this today. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I enjoyed my time. Thank you. All right, everybody. We'll catch you on the next episode of thinking Christian. Thanks everyone. Just want to take a second to thank the team at life audio for their partnership with us on the thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Hello. Hello. Quenice Petway here, co-host of the Your Daily Bible Verse podcast. Are you someone who loves to take a deep dive into God's word one verse at a time to explore his will for your life and desire to draw closer to him? If that sounds like you, I'd love to invite you to head over to lifeaudio.com and search Your Daily Bible Verse to tune in and subscribe for daily inspiration, life application, and spiritual transformation through the in-depth exploration of God's word.