Suffering, Endurance, and the Importance of Discipleship: A Conversation with Justin Kendrick

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Pastor Justin Kendrick. He is the lead pastor of Vox Church in the New England area. They are starting their 12th campus, or have 12 campuses in and around the New England area. Justin's written several books, including Barrier Ordinary, The Sacred Us, and the one we'll be talking a little bit about today, How to Quiet a Hurricane. And so we're just going to have kind of a wide ranging discussion about ministry and discipleship and the new book. And I'm excited to have you here, man. Thanks for coming on the show, Justin. Dr. James, thanks for having me. It's an honor. Yeah, absolutely. So tell us a little bit about, maybe before we get started, why don't you tell people a little bit about Vox Church and sort of how it got started and what you guys have been doing. Yeah, for sure. 13 years ago on the doorstep of Yale University, about nine of us started a community and believing God that we would see spiritual awakening, see students transformed. You know, New England is a really unique area, fast talking, lots of money, lots of education, and people don't think they need Jesus. So the city of New Haven, where we first started, about 2% of people are following Jesus. And so there was just so much room, so much space to start a church and reach people. And really from the first gathering, something supernatural happened. We really, you know, those moments in your life where you realize, I think I'm right in the center of God's purpose for my life. And I was 29 years old and it exploded. And so we began reaching people. We started our second location 13 months after we started our first, which wasn't the best idea. But, you know, even in that, there was a grace and God started moving. And from that time, we've just been able to see thousands of people meet Christ. It's been a real renewal. Honestly, a few weeks ago, we had a baptism service. We baptized 321 people that Sunday. And this is just in an area where, you know, I mean, so many churches for so long, you know, maybe one, maybe two, maybe 10 baptisms a year. And so it's been awesome to just watch God do miracles through the local church. And, you know, we do everything we can to partner with every local church in New England to see the gospel advance. We're really not super excited about Vox Church as much as we are excited about Jesus' church. And so, yeah, it's been the honor of our lives to do this together. My wife and I started the church. We have four kids and it's been a jungle, but it's awesome. It's awesome. Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. So we'll talk a little bit about the new book. So how to quiet a hurricane. What's the book about? And then what prompted you to write on that topic? What were you seeing that sort of prompted you to get into it? Yeah. Yeah. The book is about endurance. It's about how do Christians not fall apart, right? So I think, you know, for so many years, it seems that, and it's awesome because that's a real theme in your podcast too. But, you know, for so long and especially the last decade, it seems like I, as a pastor, I was just surrounded by people who were melting down. So marriages falling apart, you know, people cheating on people, careers falling apart, people's faith in Jesus crumbling, their faith in community crumbling. And so that's really what prompted the book. The motive behind the book was to just kind of collect some things that I've learned and what I see in Scripture to say, listen, there is a way to live a life of spiritual endurance, but it takes some intentionality. And the kind of the theme for the book, Mark chapter 4, Jesus speaks to the storm. We all know the story. It's an amazing, miraculous story. But then I think the piece that I often missed was he then turns to his disciples, right? Right after he was asleep in the boat, he rebukes the wind. And then he looks at them and he says, hey, where was your faith? As if, like, I expect you to be able to handle this. Like, you shouldn't have been panicked. You shouldn't have been freaking out. You should have had the confidence to deal with this. And they're, of course, stunned. They're just like, who is this guy, right? It's just this moment where they don't know what to do. But that thought that Jesus invites us to a life where we don't always get around the storm, we don't always get over the storm, but sometimes, you know, he just has to bring us straight through it. And he will. He will. And he, of course, he does in that moment. But I think that story is such a beautiful picture of the Christian life. And so that's the theme of the book. And it really walks through practical principles for how do I live a life that doesn't fall apart when things get hard? It's really interesting. I mean, I think that I can see it happening around us. You know, I've read the various research from, let's say, Coddling of the American Mind, if you're familiar with that book. Yeah, you know, there's all these different sort of treatments of our, well, we might say our increasing fragility. That's right. Right. Our, I don't know, our buying into stories that simply aren't true. That's right. And so I'm wondering, how is it that you see people moving beyond that fragility? How do you help people build up to a point where they're stronger, where they can be, I love Friedman's book called The Failure of Nerve. I don't know if you ever read his work. Yeah. How do you help people be in non-anxious presence? That's right. How do you give them that self-differentiation where it's like, I am in Christ, and now I act differently because I'm in Christ. That's right. I don't take on these emotional issues of the world. Like, I am my own ecosystem. And you're not isolated from them. That's right. You're in them, just like you're saying, you're in the storm. But you do have a certain degree of resiliency that I think can't be produced if you're only ever dependent on the world or your security. Yeah. Yeah. I think first, the first idea in the book is this myth that the storm is not going to hit me. You know? And so, especially in the Western world, we've kind of built up this idea that says, hey, if you're a good Christian, if you pray and read the Bible, give a little cash, you can avoid all pain and problems in this life. Right? And anybody with 10 minutes of experience knows that that's not true. But as a pastor, I'm talking to person after person that, I'm shocked. I'm shocked my marriage is falling apart. I'm shocked my child has an illness. I'm shocked that, and it's always, well, why would God and how could God? Right? And so I think, like, step one is this idea that Jesus says, John 16, in this world you will have trouble. And so, you know, Peter says, 1 Peter, don't be shocked by the fiery ordeal that you find yourself in. Right? And so frequently in Scripture we are told, hurricanes are going to come. You shouldn't be surprised by them. But I love, you know, the Bible, you know this, Dr. James, the Bible is 10,000 layers deep. It's an onion. And in the New Testament, the New Testament writers are keenly aware of Old Testament teachings. And a gospel writer, Mark, in Mark chapter 4, in this little story of the hurricane, he is tying his story thematically back to Psalm 107. And Psalm 107 is this description of sailors who are caught in a storm and then God miraculously calms the waves. And then the writer of Psalm 107, he says, give thanks to the Lord for his steadfast love, his hesed. And that word hesed is a very different word for love than what we think of. You know, we think of love as a feeling, as a desire, as an emotion. God thinks of love as a covenant, as a promise, as an agreement. And so in the book I unpack this idea of his love. And I try to make the case from the very beginning of the book that spiritual endurance and a revelation of God's personal love for me walk parallel in our lives. So the more I personally encounter the love of God, the more endurance I have for any circumstance in this life. And so this whole picture of Jesus calming the storm is actually God saying, my hesed, my covenant love has come, has come. And he came with a particular purpose. And this is where, you know, things get so cool in the New Testament because Mark directly connects his story to the story of Jonah. And, of course, Jesus tells us that the story of Jonah is a picture of the cross. He says just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the sea, so, you know, the Son of Man will be three nights in the earth. And he's saying that,

That no matter what goes on in my life, even when it feels like he's asleep, I can be sure he's for me, right? And this goes all the way back to Romans 8.32 where Paul says, if God didn't spare his own son, how will he not also graciously give us everything? And so endurance, I know I just kind of went crazy there, sorry, but endurance... No, not at all. Yeah, endurance comes when I experience the love of God for myself. Can't just be a theory. It all begins with that experiential reality on the inside. No, I love that. I mean, I think the hesed aspect that you're drawing out there in this idea of love having a tinge of loyalty and allegiance, where God is drawing close to us and then we are to reciprocate that, you know, the command in Deuteronomy 6.4 and 5, you know, love the Lord, your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength. That is an unreserved loyalty that we're supposed to give back to God. That's right. And it speaks to not just a cognitive ascent. Right. We understand who God is and okay, we have some platitudes that we're going to spit out about him, but it is actually experiential. Yes. Like once you read that as a summary of the law and you recognize that what God is calling the Israelites to is something extremely, it's supposed to invade the mundane of their everyday life. Yeah. Every single law that they do is a way of them participating in exactly what you just described, this hesed loyalty to God. Yes. And in this reciprocal action that is as they give God loyalty, they experience God's loyalty. This is sort of the nature of blessing. It's not a quid pro quo relationship. It's an experience that you get as you are loyal to your master. Yeah. Yeah. It's an invitation into the dynamic of the Trinity, right? It's this, and that's this whole idea of union with Christ, right? Where it's like, I can experience that loyal love from the Father because I'm in Jesus. And so now I get opportunity to know God like that. And yeah, so in the book, that's where we start, right? We start with this idea that, you know, as I experience the love of God, an endurance grows because, hey, if I really am convinced on a real practical level, if I really am convinced that I'm loved by the creator of the cosmos with a deep, faithful, loyal, never failing love, then, you know, the tax bill I can't pay or the cancer I can't beat, it doesn't look so big. And it just changes the way everything in life looks. And so that's where endurance starts. There seems to me to be an interesting connection between endurance and discipleship. You know, one of my favorite passages in the Old Testament is actually Malachi 3, and it's been widely misunderstood. You know, it's often treated in terms of tithing. But if you look at what God is actually challenging the Israelites to do in Malachi 3, He's challenging them to test Him by trusting Him. It's not about the tithe. That's sort of just the action at the moment that needs to take place in order to demonstrate the trust that they have in the Lord. There's some sort of shortage. They've been withholding their offerings. Now God's saying, no, bring that offering to me. Trust me and see what happens. Like, live into this order of the universe that I've revealed to you. Live into this covenant relationship, and that's going to then reveal more than you could ever ask or think. And it just seems to me that what you're talking about with endurance is almost exactly that. It's as we continually sort of plow into and say, nope, I'm just going to be stubborn in this moment and not neglect God. Yes. Like, He's going to be my primary focus. Yep. That is how we then build that endurance. We have to fight through the hard points, but be stubborn about it. Yeah, yeah. No, you're absolutely right. Yeah. That decision to say, you know, I'm not going to let you go until you bless me. Like, I'm going to hold on to that promise no matter what. And that kind of gets into, like, just the second piece where I call it in the book the weakness paradox. And, you know, what I found in my own life walking with Jesus, and I think so many other believers can testify, and this is such a counter-western thought, is that, you know, the more I am aware of my own weakness, the more the strength of God is channeled through me. And so, of course, Paul says it real simple, when I am weak, then I am strong. But God, through trials, has to kind of, you know, use a popular word right now, deconstruct us so that we come to the end of ourselves and we come to that place of just total dependence. You know, you think of Abraham where he says, you know, that me and my son are going to return to you when he's on his way to make the sacrifice. And it's like, hold on a second. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. He already knew if I have to kill this kid, God's going to raise him from the dead. And so, and we hear that in Hebrews 11, right, where it's like he already expected the resurrection. And so there was this radical dependence on God because he trusted his goodness. Yeah. It's sort of a fascinating dynamic that I think we can't emphasize enough, that this isn't something that we just learn about, but it's something that we learn to. In other words, it's something that we learn to do. It's something that we have to live into in order to really fully understand it. There's a great, I don't know whether you're familiar with him, John Verveke, if you've ever listened to anything by John Verveke. He's a cognitive psychiatrist or psychologist and philosopher. And he lays out these four ways of knowing, and he talks about them in terms of the propositional, I know that, the procedural, I know how, the perspectival, I know from a particular point of view, and then the participatory, I co-create with everything around me what this experience is going to be like. And so the way I usually explain it, it's like I know that a bike is a mode of transportation. I know how to ride a bike. That's the procedural. Right. When I see a bike hanging up in my garage, it's relevant to me because I know I can ride it. And the participatory is like, if I said to you, you ever feel your quads burning when you're going up a hill on a bicycle? Right. You know that feeling, right? Right. Experiential knowledge. Yeah. Right. You wouldn't know it if you hadn't done it. That's right. You can kind of guess at it maybe from other angles, but you don't know it unless you haven't done it. And it just strikes me that that paradigm I love going back to it because it strikes me that that's what we're trying to capture in the Christian life. We're trying to capture the participatory, and we're trying to get people to understand that it's not just about the propositional. It's not that that's trivial. That's right. It's absolutely crucial. But the participatory has to be there as well. Like we have to be experiencing this God that we know about in order for us to develop the sort of endurance and anti-fragility. Yes. Right. That really is going to get us through the hurricanes. Wow, that's so good. We talk about it at our church. We always talk about discipleship through kind of three angles. And this isn't unique, right? It's very similar actually to what you just said. But we'll talk about it as head, heart, hands in the sense of like, like, okay, head, I have to rewrite the mental map. I have to think differently about this or that, right? And so that's, I know that, right? And then heart, I actually have to develop rhythms that train me to consistently approach life that way. You know, and so it's this, this habitual thing. They're called spiritual disciplines throughout the church life, you know, through the last couple hundred years. But so my spiritual disciplines need to reaffirm and reorder my loves, you know, that kind of Augustine idea where it's like, okay, I've got a, I've got these disordered loves. I can restructure them through habits. And then, you know, hands. I have to actually go apply it. I have to, I have to feel the quads burn. I have to do the thing, you know, whether it's serving or giving or loving or whatever. And all of it, you know, right at the center of our discipleship making paradigm is the Holy Spirit because I don't actually do it. I do it with him, right? It's like, it's not God then me. It's not God, not me. It's God in me, right? It's like this, this co-laboring where I like how Dallas Willard said it, you know, like, uh, God is not opposed to effort, right? He's opposed to earning. And there's a big difference. It's like, God doesn't want you to earn your salvation, but don't be deceived. It's going to take some effort, right? And that's such a helpful distinction. But yeah, I love that. And I think, I think we have to, we've thought about growing in Christ in these like little boxes where it's like, well, let me just gain knowledge. And it's like, well, yeah, knowledge puffs up, right? But then love is the application. It loves it. It builds up. And so we need knowledge. It all starts with knowledge, the renewal of

with the weakness idea in Paul. You have to recognize God behind you, and I'll always be leaning back into that, not just trying to manipulate the world around you, but deeply understanding the dynamic that God is creating within the world that you're living in. Yeah. And I think that's so countercultural right now, because we don't want limits. And the whole idea of the Western faith is like, God, will you bless my plan? You know, like I want A, and if you could just do that for me, that would be great. And the whole cruciform life, the whole like take up your cross, we kind of edited that out. And so I think we are seeing, Christians have to learn this again, because I feel like right now we're scrambling. And until we recenter and build some of these ancient truths back into our lives, it's not going to get better. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? 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And so, you know, my experience with it is that there are a lot of people who have been very exposed to the church. And so that creates sort of that inoculation against the gospel. I've just seen it too much. They've heard it too much. And so it is a challenging environment. Are you seeing a similar sort of dynamic? You referenced deconstruction. Are you seeing a similar sort of dynamic with deconstruction in your churches? And how is that sort of playing itself out? Yeah, I think there's, I've never seen such a high level of skepticism, you know, just in terms of trust. We are like trying to go above and beyond to, you know, that whole, I think it's 2 Corinthians 6 where Paul's like, my heart is, my arms are wide open. We've wronged no one. We've taken advantage of no one. You know, widen your heart also. I feel like, yes, ministers in this area, pastors, leaders, especially big churches, which there are not a ton of big churches, but you're met with a ton of skepticism, like a ton of. So we, we try to, we're like big on accountability. We're big on transparency. Like we really try to win people that way and it helps, but it's not enough. You know, the most important thing is to actually do life together, you know, to like get in the trenches, you know, all of our pastors, all of our leaders, myself included, it's like, guys, we have to be living this in a very flesh and blood way. Like we have to be walking with broken people. We have to have our hands in the mud and the muck of the pain of life. Nobody gets to graduate from that. And so I think for us, we've seen, we've begun to win people over with, you know, radical hospitality, generosity, and a willingness to get our hands dirty. And that doesn't mean it's not easy, or that it's easy. We still get kind of, yeah, we still get lumped into all kinds of categories and accused of all kinds of things. And we've definitely, you know, there's been threats against me, against our leaders. I mean, it's a wild place to do ministry. But at the same time, we've seen a lot of people's lives changed and the loyalty. The funny thing about the Northeast is, you know, when a person is transformed by the grace of Jesus, boy, they're loyal. Like there's a, there's a devotion to each other that is really sweet. And so thankful for that. And another thing we're seeing is this resurgence of like the Acts 2 church. Like we have, we have a few campuses around like very prestigious universities. And so we have like college professors and doctors and attorneys who are serving on Sunday as a greeter and they're seating a homeless man, you know? And it's just like, I watch it play out and I'm like, this is the body. This is what it was supposed to be. A diverse group of people. Our largest demographic across all 12 locations is 18 to 29. And so we have this huge kind of such a hunger amongst young people to experience Jesus. And so, yeah, it's been a special time, but yeah, we are seeing, you know, all kinds of accusations, skepticism, and we're trying to turn that tide with, I love like Rosaria Butterfield stuff on radically ordinary hospitality. Just this idea of like, you know, turning strangers into family, I think is such a powerful idea by opening up your home. And you know, yesterday I had my son runs a Bible study. I have a 17 year old. He runs a Bible study and I just preached four services and he's got like 10 of his high school friends that are like one got gave his life to Christ two weeks ago. Another one, six months ago, another one, a year ago, and they're all in my living room, like, you know, arguing about Mark chapter one. And I'm like, I'm tired. I want to go watch football. You know what I mean? But it's just like, but like, this is awesome. Like this is just, this is the kingdom, you know? And so, yeah, that's doing it, doing the stuff is I think the key to winning people over in this area. It's interesting. You know, one of the things that we talk about a lot on the podcast is politics. And as I said before, you know, we started recording. My interest is never really politics. I could almost care less about it. I'm just not, I've never been overly interested in politics, but what I started seeing was that the church is being impacted by politics, that I felt like it was being captured by politics in certain ways. And so I felt like I needed to kind of dive in and try to provide some sort of biblical and theological understandings of politics. And so I guess that's my lead in for this question is, how are you all dealing with the politics right now? Because I know, you know, just having lived in the New England area, it's a, it is not, you know, the conservative breadbasket. It's a much more liberal area. And so, and I can only imagine how Christians are being framed. Any sort of Christians are being framed, even if they're not weighing in on political issues. That's right. So how are you navigating some of those issues? Dr. James, it's every day of my life. Yeah, it's a real thing. Yeah, it's real. You can't, there's no avoiding it, right? And so the first thing that we do at our church consistently is we are going back again and again to a theology of the kingdom and really teaching that, listen, left, right, we can argue about these things. We shouldn't avoid the topics or the issues, but our citizenship is in heaven. Do you see yourself first and foremost as a child of God and as a citizen of his kingdom? And if you do, then that has to be above every other identifier, whether it's race, whether it's political affiliation, whether it's economic status, all important things, right? I'm not trying to minimize them, but the kingdom, the kingdom is where we start and the kingdom, we always say the kingdom is upside down, inside out and forward back. And so the kingdom, it's inside out in that it starts with this seed of the new birth in my heart and then it transforms me. It's upside down in that now the greatest among you will be the servant of all. And it's forward back in that it's here, but it's not fully here. And so we should believe God for real life change today, but we should also be practical and realize that the kingdom is not going to fully manifest until Jesus returns. And so that's the first thing we do. And then generally what we'll say, and I love this. I stole this years and years ago from Dr. Tim Keller. And of course he was in New York city for so many years and just navigating that environment. But Keller says that there are, there are four massive areas in our society today where politics and faith collide very directly. And there's, there's more than this, but he boiled it down to four. He said, you know, the value of human life and the unborn, right? Huge issue. And the Bible is really clear about it, right? The Bible is really clear that, that I knew you before you were in your mother's womb, you know, and then you've got a biblical view of sexuality, which of course is not popular, especially in new England, you know, but this idea of like, Hey, God created male and female. And then you've got this mandate to care for the poor, this mandate to look out for the least of these and actually have a plan as a society to care for the poor. And then you have this call towards this biblical racial unity, where around the throne, there is every tribe, tongue and nation. And

There are issues on the right, like it's the conservatives that are always talking about those, but then you look at the other two things and most of the time it's the left talking about that. They're the ones that are talking more about the poor and more about race, and, you know, we can agree and disagree with what's said on both sides, but I think what Keller says really well is that no matter what party you're in, you are going to have to challenge the establishment, that if you decide that you're going to vote Republican, then you have to call those Republicans to care for the poor, and you have to call those Republicans to a humble racial biblical unity. And then the same with the left. If you're going to be on the left, then you have to call the left to care for the value of human life in the unborn. You're going to be so unpopular either way because you're a member of the kingdom. And my attitude is, listen, that's the role of the believer in society. You're salt. And so if you fit perfectly into one little political corner, I would say you're probably not applying the whole counsel of God to your life. And so make your allegiance first to the kingdom and then work within the system to be salt and light. And it's not an easy calling, but what we always say is the only way you undo the culture of hostility is through hospitality. And so Jesus said, you're going to know that they're my disciples by their love for one another. And so for us, it's like you can disagree. Don't make that, and this is extreme in our culture. Don't make that a reason to not love. And so whether we agree or disagree on how the issues should be voted on, what we have to agree on is that you don't compromise your character as a Christ follower. And so we're always navigating this issue and seeking to live kind of above the partisan chaos that exists, especially, well, everywhere. But in the church in New England, you know, it's a, it's a ocean of blue out here. And so the church is this like little Island trying to wrestle for these issues. And it's a unique, it's a unique place to be. Well, I would say, I mean, I live in Illinois. It's, it's literally a blue state, right? But I also live in central Illinois, which is more mixed and far more moderate. When my wife and I were living in Chicago, we had very similar. We had a different sort of experience, but I think in that setting, it was still, people were very much the culture in Chicago is, is sufficiently different than the culture in New England, at least from what I found that you didn't have these sort of concentrated challenges to the church. It was more like, yeah, let's just live and let live. It doesn't really matter what's happening there. You know, there weren't these like big movements, but New England has, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, if you don't agree with this perception, but my thinking is New England just has a more small town community feel to it than a city like Chicago. It has a cohesion to it that is makes it, I would think more challenging than some of the bigger cities. Fine. I'll tell you, as a, we have 12 locations and they are dramatically different. And so we have just, for example, racially, we have some locations that are 60, 65% non-white, and then we have other locations that are 85, 90% white. And one of the, one of the things we're thankful for is that each of our locations, by and large, they look like the community they're in. And that's, that's what we want. You know, it's like, gosh, I don't want a white church in a black community. You know, I don't want a black church in a white community. Like I want to be a church that reaches the people who live there, you know? And, and, but that brings a whole host of nuance and challenge. And it, you know, you've probably heard the term, the big sort, you know, we're living at a time where, where people are moving to areas where people agree with them politically. And most Americans today do not have a close relationship with anyone who thinks differently politically than them. And that is a terrible thing because first in your mind, you make them out to be fools. And then second, you make them out to be devils. And pretty soon you think everybody that doesn't vote like me is an absolute demonic person. And then you meet one and you're like, actually, you're a lot like me. We may not agree about everything, but boy, you're a human. And I think the church has to rediscover the Imago Dei as a central theme in how we look at people. Like everyone carries the image of God. It doesn't mean everyone is a follower of God, but whether you follow God or not, you have a stamp of his image on you. And so I'm going to show you honor and dignity. And I think if we can do that, we would go a long way to healing the divide in our country right now. Do you see that sort of the great resorting and the, you know, the movement toward where people are tend to be similar politically to you? Do you see that as a consequence of some of the emotional fragility that you're trying to deal with in your book? I think so. You know, I can't prove it. I'm not a, you know, sociologist, but, uh, but I do think that I think the rise of social media and the age of technology, we've become more and more of an echo chamber in that, you know, I can self-select and even, you know, if I go and look at a new pair of workout sneakers, right, for five minutes on my phone. Now every website I open, I'm getting ads for those workout sneakers, right? So even like the age of technology we live in, everything is sorting us. It is forcing us to stay in one channel. And so, um, I think the other, the other piece that you're, you're inferring is this idea that like, because we have flattened out our identities, you know, there was a time where I would be a follower of Christ and then a member of my family, and then connected to a particular denomination. And then I would be a Democrat or a Republican. And then, so, so it was like, it was my fourth identity or my fifth identity today for a lot of people, it's their first identity. And so the, the flattening out of kind of how we see ourselves has forced us to say, well, I am so uncomfortable. And you mentioned the coddling of the American mind, same idea. I'm so uncomfortable. Like you're abusive to me if you bring an idea that doesn't fit into my worldview. And so I have to kind of run into a corner and only listen to those who agree with me, which is absolutely toxic for maturity. Right. Uh, but, but I do think that, yeah, I think fragility and sort of this geographical shift that's happening, uh, I definitely think they're connected. There's an interesting, you know, sort of thought there that I guess popped into my mind. We were talking is, you know, preserving America has become the crisis right now. It's become the crisis that everybody is trying to prevent, I suppose. And, you know, it's almost like a nonviolent civil war where the election is the battle and, you know, you're trying to vote in the person who you think is going to preserve your version of America. And it's interesting from a Christian perspective to look at that and think of, I always go to Hebrews 12, 28, um, be grateful that you, uh, belong to an unshakable kingdom or a kingdom that cannot be shaken. And so we have the position. I wouldn't even say the potential. We have the position that sort of step aside and look at this from solid ground and go, this is not, these are not worries. Yes, it's tumultuous. Yes. There's chaos. It is not trivial. All those kinds of disclaimers, but at the same time, this is the sure ground I'm standing on it right here. Yeah. And so I can now approach this whole issue with a completely different disposition. That's right. With a completely different attitude. That's right. And it's just fascinating me how sort of some of those political ideas are, you know, I mean, you think about, I mean, I'm sure you've moved in your lifetime. My wife and I have done it nine times. It is never something I would do in order to move so that I could be in a place where people agreed with me. It's like, that's just too much trouble. I I'll be happy to stay and disagree with folk because the Lord don't, don't make me pack a box. Right. That's right. That's right. But I mean, the actual physical act of moving is not trivial. That's right. Yeah. It's, it's a little strange that we're seeing these sort of drastic measures taken. It's troubling in a way, but at the same time, I think as Christians, we stand back and we do say. I've built my house on the rock. Like that's right. The sinking sand shouldn't really bother me. Like I'm not going anywhere. Well, and that's honestly, Dr. James, that's literally the central message of the book is that like, I think a lot of us haven't, and I think that's been exposed. And so now if you're going to follow Jesus, it's probably time to start that construction project, you know, of building on the rock. It's like, you've been blown around and you've lost your mind and you probably, I mean, most of us have lost a friend and a family member along the way. Right. And it's like, and now, now what are you going

Hoping that we're not watching the American dream fall, I hope not, but in a time where there is so much turmoil, is this your first foundation? Is this nation as beautiful and great and amazing as it is, and how much I love it, but is this the real foundation of your life? Are you an American first? Because if you are, you can't be a really honorable American. Like, followers of Christ can actually become better citizens because we follow Jesus first. And so, you know, I think it is a real time where our faith is being tested, but at the same time, God is consistently calling us to a stronger foundation. And when you, you mentioned, you know, that you think a lot of people maybe haven't built on that foundation. There's some interesting research that George Barna has done and it's been reported on over the last couple of years that Americans have what tends to be a syncretistic worldview, or this amalgamation of multiple different worldviews kind of coming together and there's not one cohesive real worldview. Like, we've become okay with contradictions and sort of a cobbled together worldview. How much do you see that coming into these issues where you're really, because of the cobbled together nature of that worldview, you've basically got holes in the wall. That's right. You know, things that just can't really be sealed up because they don't fit together well. It's almost like putting a puzzle together and you're trying to force the pieces into different places and all of a sudden the picture doesn't really work. That's right. Well, I used all the pieces. You know. Right, right. But I smashed them together and they're snapping in half. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that is the moment that we're in. I think we have a lot of hope because the scripture gives the most comprehensive, the most thoughtful, the most helpful worldview for flourishing, for human flourishing. And so, like, again, I do think it is a return to the Bible. I think, you know, we said head, heart, hands. Everything starts with head. I have to rewrite the stories, the mental maps that I see the world through, starting with who is God, right? And then from who is God, then who am I? And then from there, who is my neighbor? And if we can get those three mental maps in order, we've come a long way. I mean, that alone would bring a foundation to our lives. But I do think that, you know, it's so funny. Just last year, we're a larger church in multiple locations, and we launched what we call our Vox Institute. And we capped it at about 70 or 75 people. It's a 10-week, two-hour theology class taught on like a master's level, right? And we thought, hey, we don't know if anybody's going to want to come to this. The day registration opens, it fills every semester. And now we've added multiple courses. But the idea is that there is a real desperation for some, I call it deeper math. You know, like we've thought about the goodness of God in like the algebra brain. You know, 1 plus 1 equals 2. Well, I thought God said my marriage would be perfect, and it's not equaling 2. And so what happened? You know, I thought my job would be perfect. And so, and it's like, well, it's time to learn calculus. It's time to learn trigonometry. Like the goodness of God is a little more complex. And so you can't live a deep life with paper-thin answers, you know. And so I think that is where it starts. And there is a hunger for that in the church right now, which to me is encouraging. It really is. It's really good to hear that you had that response to it. I mean, I think that even as you ask those questions, who is God? Who are we? You can get into all sorts of questions like the necessity of our vulnerability before God, the necessity of dependence and why that's not a bad thing. Like we're created to be dependent. That's right. Types of ideas that many times when we're trying to be independent, that's when, again, some of this fragility comes into play. Yeah, yeah. Because we're just not strong enough. It doesn't matter how strong you are. There's going to be a weight you can't lift. That's right. And so when that comes along, what happens? Does your psyche just break or do you have, you know, do you lean back on God in some way and finally realize, oh, man, I've been doing this wrong for a long time. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's huge. So how does that education really play into then your overall discipleship sort of paradigm of head, heart, hands? Obviously, it starts with head. But then, you know, how does that trickle down, for lack of a better term? No, that's great. We call it, no, that's really good. We call it our discipleship pathway. And for us, we're always looking head, heart, hands. It's not this, like for so long in church, you know, it was kind of like, hey, discipleship is go to like class 101, 201, and 301. And now you're, I don't know, a leader, a disciple, whatever it is, you know. And, hey, I'm for anything that moves people forward, so I'm not trying to throw stones. But for me and for what we've experienced, that type of, like, go around the bases of the baseball diamond was not holistic enough for the nuances of spiritual growth, especially in our context. And we talked about it as front doors, growth incubators, and leadership development. And so for us, what we mean by that is we have like entry level stuff for head, heart, hands all through our church, ways that people can begin to engage, whether it's hands, like serving the poor in the community in a one day thing. You know, like something simple, something easy. This is how they begin. And we always say, like, hey, start with what you've neglected. And so if you begin to look at your spiritual growth and go, wow, I've really developed my theology and I've really developed my heart, my spiritual disciplines, but boy, I don't serve anywhere. Well, it's like, okay, well then start with hands. Start to get your hands dirty. Or it's like, boy, you're such an active servant, but I've never read the New Testament. Let's get you in a Bible class in head. And so we always think like growth happens through all three vehicles and you always start with what you've neglected. And then once you start with what you've neglected, we say move to a balanced diet where I'm actually intentional about growing my mind, growing my spiritual disciplines, and growing my service. And I'm doing all three on a consistent basis. And then kind of step three for us is grow by giving it away. And so once you've really established kind of a steady diet, we help our people do that. We say, hey, it's time to really begin to lead. You've hit a ceiling where, you know, you have to give away what God's done in you if you're going to continue to mature. And so that's the leadership development phase where they actually start to say, okay, I'm going to lead that Bible class. I'm going to teach that Institute class. I'm going to run that small group. I'm going to lead that global missions trip and launch people into that development. So for us, it's a little bit, we call it the discipleship pathway, starting with, you know, front doors, just getting in. Growth incubators is what we call like the long-term more like, you know, growing opportunities in the church. And then leadership development is that third phase where they actually step into doing it and leading it rather than just receiving from it. There's no perfect discipleship model, but for us, that's how we've kind of wed together the head, heart, hands, you know, thread that helps people really grow. And I will say this, you know, it's been explosive for us when it comes to real growth in people's lives. Like we look back 12 locations, we have about 102 staff. I think 96 of them came from inside our church. And so these were, you know, guys that, hey, I was working at Xfinity and now I'm a pastor. You know, Hey, I was, you know, I was a football coach, our most recent, you know, campus pastor, you know, he was a gym teacher and a football coach and he went through our system of development as he was doing his career. And then we, the day came where we said, you're a pastor. It's time to launch a church. And he left one career and stepped into another. But that's a really common story for us that, you know, Jesus chose fishermen and tax collectors and Simon, the zealot and on and on. And so, you know, not a lot of people want to go from Wheaton or Liberty university or Moody Bible Institute and move to New Haven, Connecticut. It's just, it's just not on the top 10 list, right? I'll go to Dallas. I'll go to Jacksonville. Don't send me to New Haven. And so, so we realized early on, if we're going to see a movement of church planting across New England, it's going to come from within and it's, it is, it is. And so it's pretty exciting. It's, I mean, I love the model. It resonates with me on a number of different levels, but I used to be a personal trainer. I talk about this all the time on the podcast, like regular listeners are annoyed at this point, but, but I love the idea. It's like, you don't bring somebody in their first workout and throw three 15 on

That's right. Maybe you're taking your laundry home on the weekends. Like it's still not exactly real life. That's right. And while it's not immune from its problems, there is a rather significant safety net that most colleges build in for students who are living there that almost precludes them from experiencing the deeper trials that sometimes come when you're out on your own. That's right. You know, I can remember my wife and I going on a little weekend jaunt, and we got a gas company decided to come by and read the meter. And so we just get this $600 bill right before we're going on vacation. And I'm like, oh my gosh, that's like a bank account right now, you know what I mean? And so you just get hit with it in a different way when you're not, you know, in that setting. Yep. And I think that's one of the big problems. And that's why I like the organic training you're describing. I think it's really significant and important. And I would assume, just to sort of close it out in terms of your book, that that would allow people to integrate their deep heart experiences with a lot of the education they're doing in real time. That's exactly the idea, is I have to have, you know, in the book, I talk about a theology of suffering. Like, I have to have a well-developed theology of suffering if I'm going to become a person of endurance over the long haul. I can't be surprised. I can't be shocked. I've got to, you know, like in the book, I talk about the hurricane has either just hit you or you're currently in it or it's just around the corner. And so to act like it's not coming, to not prepare is foolish. And so, hey, read the book, don't read the book, but you should have a plan for the hurricane. And if you don't, it's going to knock your house down. And so be a person that's proactive and that actually prepares ahead of time. It's the same idea, you know, with what you just said, the physical disciplines. It's like you don't work out, you know, because you love hanging out in the gym for an hour. You work out because it changes every other part of my life, right? It's sleep. It's playing with my kids. It's longevity. It's, you know, everything. My heart works better. And so, yeah, my stress levels. So that's the idea of the book is we're going to prepare now for what's inevitable in the days ahead. Very cool. Well, I'd recommend, I mean, my audience knows this. I'd recommend the book, How to Quiet a Hurricane. We'll have links to it in the show description. And so we're kind of running into the end of the hour here. I did want to at least ask you my final question. And the final question is just always this. How do you think that Christians should be thinking differently in order to be and make disciples more faithfully today? Yeah. Boy, that's a big one, right? I would say, you know, I would say that probably the number one barrier that we run into when it comes to discipleship and disciple making is the lack of habits in our lives. And what I mean by that is we all have habits. There's no doubt about it. But Christians, the idea of personal discipline when it comes to spiritual growth is almost nonexistent. And in a panic, American pastors and Christians and leaders have tried to dumb things down more and more and more and more in the point where it's like, hey, come to church for my 40 minutes, you know, total service. We used to have church for three hours. Now we have church for like super quick microwave church. And then it's like, hey, don't spend hours in prayer. Read a five minute devotional like or don't even read it. Just listen to it while you're driving into work because you're so busy. And we keep making these accommodations. And I just don't know how we're going to be formed by Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit when we give him 10 minutes and we give social media three hours and we give TV two hours. And so the place that we start when it comes to discipleship is this is going to disrupt your life. You know, one of the things I always challenge guys, the first thing I challenge guys to do, and I've worked with hundreds of guys in their journey of faith, is start your day with an hour alone with God for 30 days. Just try it. And of course, it nukes their life. Like, it's just like, I can't do that. I work out. I go to the gym. I'd walk my dog. My kids are on the bus. It messes up everything. And so we always encourage people, well, start with one disruptive habit and then watch how God will actually begin to honor that. And so I think that, you know, years ago I had a friend tell me, I was like, I just, I need to be growing. How do I grow? And he said, Justin, those who find God find time. And I do think that love for Jesus is usually spelled T-I-M-E. You've got to give him space in your life. And if you give him just a little more space, he'll do a lot more work. And so I think when it comes to discipleship, we have to declutter and we have to make Jesus a bit more of a priority. Fantastic answer, man. Love that. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Fantastic. Well, everybody, I would really recommend How to Quiet a Hurricane, Strategies for Christian Endurance in the Midst of Life's Storms. And we will have that link in the show description so you can check it out there. Go check out Justin's website. It's, that'll be in the show description as well, but justinkendrick.com. And you can see more about what he's doing, what other books he's authored and about Vox Church if you're in the New England area. I'd recommend checking it out. If you're looking for somewhere to go to church, check out one of the campuses there. And Justin, just really thanks for being here. This was a great discussion. I really appreciate it. Oh, it's an honor to be here. Thanks. Yep. Well, everybody, we will catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Are you seeking a deeper connection with God, but just can't seem to find time to make prayer a priority? Introducing Mindful Christian Prayers. Whether starting your day or winding down at night, this show is your resource for spiritual renewal. Each episode features short, guided prayers, scripture readings, and moments of silence to help you reflect and connect with the Lord no matter how busy your schedule might be. 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