Christians, Business, and the Business of Discipleship: A Conversation with Joe Becker

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Joe Beckler. Joe is actually the VP of Development, Marketing, and Communications for a group called the Christian Businessmen's Connection. And so we're going to be talking a little bit about what they do, how they do it, and I think we'll probably get into some issues of discipleship and one-on-one mentoring and all that kind of good stuff because that's a lot of what Christian Businessmen's Connection does. So welcome, Joe. It's great to have you. Hey, James. Thank you for having me today. This is great to be on the show. Yeah. Hey, just tell us a little bit about you. What's been your journey to kind of get you to the point where now you've been with Christian Businessmen's Connection for this time? I would love to do that. So I've been with Christian Businessmen's Connection, acronym CBMC, for a little over a year and a half. So I came on board. But the story for me really began in the late 90s. I originally grew up in Atlanta, Georgia, went to college in Texas, came back, was working in vocational church ministry, a single adult minister in a church in North Atlanta, and kept running into young professionals that, I mean, their understanding of spirituality was so far out of scope for what I was trained and prepared for. I can't believe I'm saying this. I went to seminary. I had all the evangelism training. But what I was finding is that the categories, the definitions, the words, as best as I was trying to kind of eliminate kind of internal speak, there was still this gap. And so I, and to this day, I've tried to think, how did I connect with these guys? But it was a gentleman in our church who had become a follower of Jesus through Christian Businessmen's Connection. He connected with me and he said, hey, he goes, I bet you I could show you a resource that could help. And so his name was Doug Edwards. Doug introduced me to Operation Timothy, which is the kind of premier discipleship tool that is at the heart of the Christian Businessmen's Connection ministry movement. And as I was going through this material with him, I was great because all of a sudden it was giving me a way to think about how do you create a conversation and ask questions, listen, and help someone progress in their understanding of spirituality and kind of get their, get clarity around definitions and then be able to move them into specificity about exploring Jesus. And so I connected with those guys back in the 90s. I ended up eventually becoming a church planter in Southwest Colorado. I live in Colorado now, but I was in Southwest Colorado. And for those who know that area of the world, it's amazing. It's one of the most beautiful places on the earth. It's a classic mountain town culture, and it's very post-Christian, very syncretistic religiously. So there's a lot of blending. Worldviews are like dime a dozen. There's all kinds of different perspectives. And going into that environment, it was definitely for me working in church, church experiences. It was, it was so life-giving because again, I was engaging people that were so far off the grid in terms of like the standard approach to having a spiritual conversation and leading towards a conversation about Jesus. And we just learned to kind of leverage that Operation Timothy strategy to help people progressively get curious about faith and then to begin thinking about things with the idea of God being involved and their understanding of the world. So all that to say, I bumped around different assignments. I eventually made my way to the front range of Colorado and yeah, an opportunity emerged about two years ago to come on board with CBMC. And while I've worked in vocational church work and I, I love the church, I love it for all it's good and it's challenging. I love it. And at the same time, I see that the opportunity of Jesus strategically leveraging marketplace leaders in a place where the church typically can't go. And that is the marketplace, the largest unreached people group in the world. And so CBMC afforded an opportunity for me to shift gears and join a team where I could kind of lean in on this opportunity to help deploy believers into the marketplace and to help people discover Jesus in a way that is relational and empowering and could be a game changer. So that was the motivation for jumping on the team. And here I am a year and a half in or a little more up to my eyeballs, kind of, you know, that capacity curve thing where you're like learning, well, it just, it takes time and I'm, I'm loving it. I'm really excited with what God's showing me personally and just being a part of this organization. It's really interesting. I mean, you mentioned you went to seminary. Where did you go to seminary just out of curiosity? I went to New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. Fantastic. Yeah. I was just in New Orleans. Oh, awesome. Yeah. Love it. It was, it was an amazing experience and it gave me so much. And again, it was a great place to go to seminary because New Orleans, as you well know, is a, it's a colorful place. It's a good eclectic town. Yes. Yes. Well, no, I, I find it interesting because as somebody who's gone to seminary as well and, and sort of trying to figure out, I, I worked as a personal trainer while I was going through seminary and very similar experience to what you did. It was, you know, how do you start to translate and bridge really between what you're learning in seminary and how you're talking to people who have no understanding of what you're learning in seminary? You know, like even some of the Christian people that I would train really had no context for what I was learning or how I was learning it or what the words were. And then particularly, you know, the, the non-Christian people had just no idea what was going on. And so, yeah, when we talk about, you know, spiritual matters, we were really talking about two different things. And so there had to be this sort of bridge across where you figure out how to talk about it. And one of the, I don't know whether you found this, but one of the real challenges I found was a lot of people had been, had felt excluded from Christianity, which is normal. It's an exclusive religion. But then they developed these sort of tropes and stereotypes that really sort of would become a boundary, a wall, you know, a blockade. And, you know, so when I started talking Christianese or even trying to introduce some real Christian concepts, it was like, nope, I've been there. I've tried that. This is going to be no different than the last time. Were you, were those the sort of challenges you were kind of facing as well? Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. James, you hit the target. I feel like one of the biggest challenges is demything what people understand about Jesus. It is fascinating to me to walk in the room and to get sized up pretty quick if you say that you are a follower of Jesus. I mean, there's so many assumptions. And in a sense, I don't know about you, but I've always, like, there's an emotional side of that for me where I've gone like, oh man, I mean, I wish people wouldn't pigeonhole me. It makes me mad. I want to push against that. I want to prove that I'm not like what they think. But after a while, I feel like, well, there's a clever advantage in being able to create clarity, right? And so all of a sudden you sit with someone and you say, well, yeah, tell me where you're at. What do you think? Or what do you think I think about that? And then people say, well, let me create some clarity for you. Here's where I'm at. And then to bare my soul authentically, right, and to tell them kind of the real journey. Everybody just wants to know that something works. And I was talking to a president of a company in North Denver yesterday, and he was sharing his story. It's gritty. It's got so many ups and downs, so many hard moments. And he's a follower of Jesus, but, you know, it's not.

Not that polished story, but it is so real. I told him, I said, you know what? Two of my boys are spiritually searching right now. And so I'm like, I would trust you to talk to them because you're gonna demonstrate that the gospel works. It's relevant. It makes sense. And it can be applied into any scenario. And so again, the stereotypes were and are frustrating, but at the same time, I mean, I think it's the, and maybe that's what Jesus did, right? He asked questions and he almost kind of created a shock the system experience of like challenging the understanding of how God works in the world and, you know, pushing against religion, pushing against society. And he did it in a way that made people think. And so I'm not telling you I'm great at it, but I wanna be better at, yeah, demything people's understanding of Jesus. I think it's really difficult. I mean, one of the things I've found as I've engaged in this kind of work and even just had discussions on the podcast is we tend to get stuck in a sort of final idealized version of what Christianity should look like. And I think there's an appropriate aspect of that, you know, it's sort of called eschatology, right? Where are we going and when is this all going to get, you know, exponentially better through God's action, you know, and we're going to be in his presence and be free from our flesh and all that kind of good stuff. But a lot of times I think we miss how messy spiritual growth actually is and how many times people stub their toes even in scripture. I'm an Old Testament guy, so, you know, the life of Abraham, you just look at the life of Abraham and you're like, well, this is a guy who was in process of figuring it out. Like he wasn't, he didn't come out of the womb understanding how to fear God. This was something he had to learn over time and he didn't always make the right choice, but he learned from the choices that he made and God was gracious with him and sort of drew him along. I think there's something about that that we need to capture with people that this is about a process and a growth curve in some way, as opposed to a, you're this one moment and you have to be this the next sort of feel. That's really interesting because I think about like what's happening kind of a, you know, gated entry, right? With like access. You got to have the pass. You got to have the login and the password to get in the door. And in one sense, I wonder often, not just within the context of church, but within our circles of kind of faith engagement, have we created that kind of gated entry experience to where, and maybe we haven't created it, but it feels that way to everyone looking in. And so they're looking for like, how can I find something that will add purpose and meaning into my journey? But I've got this really broken story. And the more we can lean into what you just described, I believe of like, yeah, the Old Testament is beautiful because it says, oh, God can use people just like, just like me with everything, ups and downs, brokenness, all that. It's a beautiful mess. And it's exactly where God wants to be. And that's the beauty of the gospel. And so the more we can introduce that, I think to people and help them say, no, no, no, no, no. You are like, you're the white hot center of where God would want you to be for something amazing to happen so that there's not this, you know, polished requirement to get in the gate. And so the more we can get there, boy, I think it's a lot better. I think it's why the business, the marketplace makes sense for us to engage people. Everybody's showing up and they're showing up with their masks on. I mean, they got to like put their game face on. They got to get the job done. They got to pull the paycheck. They cannot like bleed on their employees and their friends in the marketplace. They got to do their job. When they struggle, you know, the business experience struggles typically. And so people live with this really interesting tension. And our hope is that we can interrupt that with, you know, ways to integrate Jesus into marketplace environments so people can experience a seed planted for hope. That is a game changer and helps them kind of turn things around and reframe. And yeah, everybody's showing up to work no matter what's going on in their lives, whatever the struggle is. And it's a great place to engage people. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. So, you know, one of the things my wife and I, it's interesting, we were just talking about this the other day. She's a chief pharmacy officer for a hospital system here in the St. Louis area. And I was an academic dean prior to doing what I'm doing now. And we were just talking about the difficulties of helping people understand leadership choices that have to be made. And so, you know, you think about anybody who's been in a leadership position knows what it feels like to make, have to make a decision. And no matter what decision you make, which way you go with it, whether you go to the left, the right, up or down, whatever, somebody's gonna be hurt by it. And it just strikes me that that sort of conundrum is unique to upper level leaders, you know, particularly executives and companies and those kinds of things. And so I'm wondering how, you know, is that an accurate sort of, I guess, observation? And how do you really wrestle with that aspect? You know, having these guys, I would, you know, there's a part of me that feels like it could produce alienation within the church where, you know, people see this from the outside and what they're really seeing is greed or something, you know, other than that. There's a lot of, you know, potential judgment involved. And then on the other side, just closing themselves off because to make those kinds of decisions does require a level of grit and almost isolation, I would think, right? Solitude, you tend to go into yourself a little bit more. So what are some of the unique aspects, I guess, all that to say, what are some of the unique aspects of discipling these sorts of people, these folks who are making those kinds of decisions and have charge over that much responsibility? What does that really look like? Yeah, leadership is lonely. I think we say that quite often for leaders. And I mean, obviously, from a church perspective, the United Place both speak to that, that that's a reality within the church. But ironically, it's a reality everywhere is that executive leadership roles, managerial roles are lonely positions. And so the level of isolation and having to make hard decisions that impact people's lives is, it's intense. And one of the ways CBMC has sought to attack that issue is A, to call it out. I think there's something to, you know how Hagar named God, the God who sees me? I think that there's something to that, that the more we can like look leaders in the eyes and say, Hey, you know what? I see you. I just want to call out something I'm observing. I may be right. I may be wrong, but it just seems like it's a lonely, it's a lonely role. And nine times out of 10 guys are like, yeah, it is. And that in and of itself is helpful to just be able to affirm the pressure cooker that so many business leaders in general are facing. The men we work with, we, we, we realized that for us, it's kind of like, you know, you think about like the, the marketing funnel where like for CBMC, we really want to like get people introduced to the movement. So we'll do events. We'll do marketing campaigns, you know, digital campaigns to really push people into the funnel, get them connected to information. And then the next step is really get them connected to community. So a lot of times we, we form teams that we have teams that are called for our executive leaders. In particular, we have a type of team called a trusted advisor forum. And it's for that mature business leader who is most likely owning a business, leading a business, or in an executive role. And they come into the room, they take turns bringing an issue to the table, and there's some strong kind of guidelines for how the meeting is conducted. So you don't have some...

across the table like, well, this is how I think you ought to do it. It's more of a method of asking questions of the person that is presenting the issue to help them work through the issue and come to some conclusions about how can they work the problem. And it becomes an opportunity for executive leaders to be in the room together in an environment where they're not around their work peers, right? So they can talk candidly and honestly about some of the hard things that they're having to do and face. It's a goldmine of opportunity in encouraging our leaders because we're all missing something. I was at a Bible study in my church a couple of weeks ago, or no, it was last weekend, and I'm sitting at the table and one of the gentlemen next to me, a remarkable guy, love how he wears this. And he's talking about how he does mergers and acquisitions. And he's talking about this company they're working on and how they had to do a reduction in force. And he's talking about all the other things they've had to do. And he's talking about it strategically and methodically, and he's just like, hopeful the company is going to survive. And I'm listening and I'm going, that guy rolled a reduction in force into that whole conversation of all those things he's doing. I'm like, how is he managing that in his head and in his heart as a follower of Jesus? And I'm thinking about my temperament and my blind spots in leadership, how that's not that easy to roll off my tongue. So instead of going, man, that guy must be really cold-hearted, more of it is like, I need to like, that's a reality in the marketplace that we go through those ups and downs, and we go through riffs. So I need to get curious about, hey, how do you do that? And how do you do that well? How do you take care of employees when they have to be let go? And how can I learn from that, right? Otherwise, I'm sitting in my remote space or wherever, and I am sweating bullets because I'm facing a hard decision at work and I don't know how to navigate it. And there's an answer across the table in another leader who knows how to do it well. Very cool. Yeah. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. So is this a, I assume it's nationwide. It's not just in Colorado. It's nationwide that you do this with different leaders. Have you been, had any, and I think you have a goal, if I'm remembering correctly, 100,000? Is that correct? Yes. By 2030? 2030. 2030. I had the shape right, but I closed off the number. Yeah, that's all good. So 2030. So how does that look? What does that look like to accomplish? And I guess before you, maybe before you answer that, you know, your, your ministry is pretty laser focused on discipleship. And, and so sometimes that can imply that it's existing Christians growing in their faith. Is there a component of this where making disciples involves that conversion experience so that, you know, non-Christian executives can kind of pop over and in and really explore their spirituality with you all and eventually come to saving faith in Christ? So we've, we've been working really hard on our, our verbal branding as of recent. That's one of the, on my marketing side of things, talking about like, how do we across the board talk about CBMC? Because to me, the observation is, and I've had this observation in both the church world and also in the not-for-profit faith-based experiences I've had, is that it is so much easier to declare that you are intent on leading people to Christ, but then settling into a community of like-minded people that are already kind of in, and then, you know, living in that space. So for CBMC, our brand work is around, what are the things, what, what is it that we do? And at the end of the day, we, we've, we've drilled down to, we, we present Jesus and we develop businessmen. Those are really pregnant phrases for us, but that present Jesus and then develop businessmen needs to feel like a continuum for us. You know, I started this conversation with you talking about what brought me in was the fact that CBMC tools really gave me a way to engage people that, honestly, I think sometimes you're going, wow, that's going to be complicated. That's going to take a lot of time, but it's, we're human. We're complex. And so I, I think that for us, the tension and the accountability is always going to be around. Are we doing a good job staying true to the whole, the whole, you know, assignment for this organization, present Jesus, develop businessmen. For that reason, in that funnel I described to you, there's, there's one more stage beyond teams. We've got to get the ultimate goal. The number that matters the most to us is always going to be how many men are in life on life discipleship relationships. And even more important, how many of those men are turning around and discipling others because the way our operation Timothy strategy works is it's just, we're trying to create a tractor runoff that honors the great commission. And, you know, I, of course, you know, I've been at faith for a long time, but to be really kind of make sure I'm all in. I have a gentleman we, I call him my Paul. His name's Gary and Gary disciples me. I'm going through operation Timothy right now. I'm in book three. There's three books. And what's really exciting about it is that as I'm going through, it's so much fun to like address the, the core principles of faith, but now to move into disciplines and be challenged at age 52 to grow and to push into new areas of, of spiritual development that I just wasn't moving in. And then a midway through Gary's like, all right, who are you thinking about that you want to, um, you want to disciple? And I just had an organic conversation with a friend named Matt. And I said, Hey, I'm going through this. It's really great. I'd love to walk through this with you. And he's like, I'm in. And so now Matt and I are having conversations, uh, you know, every other week and we're going through operation Timothy. We're about probably seven chapters behind where I am as I'm going through it. And I'm sharing that story to say, that's, that's the power of CBMC's model. That's the thing that we know really gets, uh, gets the ball down the field. So all of our efforts need to point to that. So to the number a hundred thousand. Yeah. It's huge. We're, uh, we're in 39 states right now. Um, we're in, uh, let me make sure I get this right. 86 cities. Um, and, and we have roughly around, I'd say 19,000 people that are engaged in the mission currently. So we've got some scale factor to work on. We're looking at 2030. The other thing I would mention is that we're an international organization too. CBMC is in 99 countries. Um, we, we have, uh, across the board, we have around 50,000 people that are involved. And, uh, the other really cool thing about this James is that we've designed our tools so that we, we recognize our charter is to serve men in the marketplace. But um, women in the marketplace are an equal force, right? And there, there's amazing leaders out there that need to be served well. So we, we realized our charter since 1930 has been to serve men. And right now, candidly, we feel like men are in crisis. And so our charter feels strong, but we also are working really hard to collaborate with women's marketplace movements and ministries to make sure they're being served well because they're doing some really exciting things that um, we want to collaborate. Yeah, That's, that's great. Uh, I, I want to circle back to something you mentioned, you know, that that sort of tension between, I don't know what, I guess I wouldn't describe it as a, a shame, right? Being ashamed of saying, yeah, we're just going to settle into this group of which we're all a part of and try to grow together. But there is a little bit of a stigma to that, right? Um, and I think, you know, for me, I guess it's, I suppose it came out of the, you know, the church movements, right? Um, you have this old adage, like if you're not growing, you're dying, right? And so if you're not seeing numeric growth through evangelism, through um, additional baptisms, your church is probably stagnant and not doing particularly well. But, you know, that doesn't exactly ring true because you can have a depth of spiritual growth and those kinds of things. And so I find it interesting that you, you all are sort of

Is that what you meant when you were saying that? Because I do think that people tend to sort of see it, if you're not doing evangelism, you're not doing anything almost, is sort of sometimes how it feels. Is that... Yeah. Wow. We're, this is a, how much time do we have? We'll take as much time as we need. Yeah, it's interesting how we have, we've chopped up the wishes of Jesus, right, with the Great Commission. We've kind of chopped it up to say, and I come from a tradition that has been really good at equipping and activating people to share their faith or creating environments where people can come and experience a clear message about Jesus and make an informed decision. Okay, that's great. But it's that continuum of progression. It's that durative action, right, of, like, ongoing. It's Jesus saying, follow me, not, you know, get your... Get your, I used to think about when I was at Baylor University, I had my meal card. My ID, a badge, it was like you slide it through the little slot and you get your meal, right? And you slide it through the slot and you get in the library and all that stuff. And I just think, you know, in some ways, the way that evangelism seemed, and I'm guilty of it, of presenting it as, like, hey, get your card so that you can, like, slide it through and you're in, and then maybe you can get some good stuff or good benefits of. But there's this deeper sense of, like, Jesus saying, hey, I'm actually telling you to make a decision daily. Are you going to, like, are you going to die to yourself? Are you going to choose this path of life that is narrow and hard and uncomfortable? Or are you going to get on a highway that leads to destruction? And it's almost like, how well are we doing at, like, saying to people, following Jesus is this active, dynamic, transformative experience that's a game changer, and it's a continuum of activity. So I don't know if I'm totally answering your question. No, I think you are. I mean, I think it's interesting, you know, when I look at the Great Commission, I see two movements, right? I mean, making disciples involves then baptism, which is this sort of radical commitment to join with Christ in his death, right? If we go to Romans 6:4, you know, you see this connection between baptism and burial. Well, that's not a happy moment, right? This is, you know, you're doing something. The point is you're doing something really serious. This isn't a flippant decision. And then the other side of that is you're learning to live under Christ's authority, that, you know, observe all that I've commanded. But neither of those messages are particularly... you know, you wouldn't want to just come to a new believer and be like, okay, so here's what you're going to do. You're going to be buried with this guy, and then you're going to learn to live under his authority. Like, that's not a great presentation usually. But it's like, we've got to figure out a way to sort of crack the code and get in there and say, this is actually what you're doing, right? We’ve got to move away from my supposed, you know, the old adages, the fire insurance, right? You know, salvation is fire insurance. It's not that. It's new life under a new authority. But no, it's just interesting to hear you say that because I think, you know, for you, when I was reading through the website on your organization, I got the feeling that it was more discipleship-oriented, more of the, okay, you've committed your life to Christ. Now let's learn to live under his authority. And I don't know that I see anything wrong with that, right? Like, that an organization would be dedicated to such a thing. It pays dividends exponentially, and I'm sure you've seen those over the years, that, you know, when you focus in on the growth of believers, God is able to do more than we would ever ask or think through these changed lives. And so, no, I think it's just an interesting point of conversation that we need to start sort of pulling away from this idea, not jettisoning evangelism at all. Nobody's saying that, but not stigmatizing the sort of spiritual growth and cultivation and one-on-one relationship and, you know, the Paul-Timothy kind of relationships that you're talking about within your organization. It's interesting to explore what spiritual formation can look like in this kind of life-on-life discipleship experience. And, you know, again, here I am at age 52, and I'm in this experience with the gentleman who's in his 70s, who's leading me through this. He's got a story, and he's got... It's crazy. And some of it connects with my story, and some of it's very different. But, man, the wisdom that's coming from this. I think what the big discovery for me, James, has been in this season has been that discipleship is so dynamic that it keeps happening. And I don't know about you, but, I mean, in my... I'm a slow learner, and I just... I have these days where I'm like, you know what, I think I'm doing pretty good. And then I have these clarity moments where I'm like, there is so much more. There's so much more. And, yeah, sure, I went to seminary. Yeah, sure, I can, you know, translate texts. I can do this, that, and the other. Okay, that's knowledge, but it's that transformative component of discipleship that is accessible to everyone and doesn't need a seminary education. It's just, it's this transformative engagement with Jesus that happens when people get together and try and work on their faith together. It's crazy and amazing. And for that reason, I mean, there are business leaders in CBMC that I'm encountering, and it's... I mean, they're leading in the marketplace. Some of them are leading huge corporations. And the problem they're trying to work is, how do I create space for people to encounter Jesus and have a meaningful developing relationship with him? Whoa, that's pretty awesome. And so I love seeing that and being a part of that. It is pretty awesome. And when you look at it again, I'm not in the business side of things, but my wife and I have a lot of conversations in the organization that she runs, you know, in hospitals. A lot of times what they talk about is making it easy for people to do the right thing. So let's create a culture that makes it easy for people to do the right things. And I sort of love that language because it's like, well, what if we just modified it a little bit and said, let's make it easy for people to explore who Jesus is. Let's make it easy for people to, you know... There's a thought process in the business world of, you know, the way they structure these to create a culture within a particular organization that I think has a lot of wisdom to it. And if Christians and wise business leaders or churches would take a look at it and go, oh, maybe that's the kernel we need to be drawing back over into ourselves. Maybe that's the part we need to be looking at and saying, wow, they've created this phenomenal culture. We need a phenomenal culture, but we need it to be aimed at, you know, something slightly different. But I think there's a lot we could learn there. Yeah. And in that, don't you see the handshake that can occur within the marketplace and the church? I mean, when you, when you're both operating with that sense and then there's... And that's always where the challenge is with parachurch is that you can go, you know, we're doing something the church doesn't do well. And I'm like, I don't like that. I just, I have all kinds of problems with that sense within, you know, parachurch culture. And at the same time, I think, you know, churches looking at the parachurch world and thinking, no, they're doing, that's great, but it doesn't necessarily feed the engine for what we're trying to do here. There's a disconnect. And the more we create that handshake of, you know, I know that if I can be in a business context and, you know, work the problem of faith with people there. And my wife's a nurse. She's working in a surgical center. And, I mean, it's my gateway into hanging out with people that I would never get to hang out with. And I love it. And it's fun because we just, particularly her, she's amazing at this, is like, just how do you wear your faith in an environment that is, it's a bit rough around the edges and it's, you know, surgical center. There's, you know, a bit of, you've got the profile of, you know, surgeons coming in and out and the pressure and the churn of keeping, you know, keeping things moving and, and yet people are hurting and they need help. And so, you know, we can do things there that we just simply can't do within the context of church. But then we can think strategically, well, if we could get them into a community of people that are all trying to work out their faith, you know, with Jesus, if we can move to that step with them and create that space for them, whether it's where we go or somewhere else, awesome. So that connectivity to me is beautiful. And I want more of that for our organization, to be candid. It's interesting to hear you say that because I've always, over the last year or two, as I've really been diving into thinking about discipleship, one of the things I've had in my brain is sort of discipleship is the church's coordinating activity. It's

To a large degree, that we're on the same mission, that there are ways for us to coordinate together as fellow members of the body of Christ, you know, that we're being integrally connected up into the head who is Christ, and to the extent that we are following after him, we're actually, you know, the church becomes, and I don't mean the church like a local church, but the body of Christ overall, it's no longer the gawky teenager who grew six inches and you know, can't control his limbs, right? It's now a, you know, a finely tuned professional athlete, right? Yes. And so I think discipleship is really core to the sort of coordination you're talking about. And I find it so interesting that your organization is sort of drawing these folks together and coordinating them through that discipleship. They're coming together to be disciples, but in the course of discipleship, they're also gaining insight from one another about what they do, how they do it, you know, where all that goes. And so, yeah, I think it's a fascinating thing. I love even the Christian businessman's connection, right, speaks to sort of that coordination. So, fantastic stuff. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Yeah, the word connection is actually really key. We've been thinking through our language and one of the phrases that's popping up is that CBMC is a place where men are walking alongside each other, encouraging each other, and being equipped to face life's challenges with faith and purpose. So, there's some power to this idea of, like, there are so many great faith-based business coaching movements right now. Sure. And we love it. It's really exciting. So, for us, it's like, we've just got to be laser point precise about what is it that we do well. And we believe that it's if we can be that catalytic space where we're engaging men around who Jesus is, step into following him and then step into a relationship where you can grow and progress in that and then let Jesus inform all these domains of your life. So, think holistically, right? And I think about, you know, theological traditions have done a pretty good job of, like, thinking holistically about vocation, about, there's not these different, like, strict lines between the domains of life. No, instead, it's like, let's let Jesus be the matrix overlay in everything. And so, it's fun to think about how, you know, a gentleman can come into the room. And I've done it with my disciple. I've said, hey, here's the problem I'm wrestling with. Here's the thing I'm trying to work, the problem. And it's not tied to the curriculum for the day. It's not tied to the chapter. He's like, yeah, let's link in. Let's talk about that. And then we start, like, having this back and forth about integrating Jesus into something that maybe we don't always move to that place automatically. So, that integration is, I feel like, is really important and it requires all the team players to think about the role of the church and then the role of community. And that's really what we're trying to do is facilitate community. And we're just doing it in a particular context with a particular target audience. But it should have, here's the fun thing for me in my marketing role. I put my marketing hat on here and I'll say that I have the best job in the universe because I get to fly at an altitude where I excavate stories all day long. And the best part of the storytelling that I get to do is that oftentimes I'll talk to men and they're like, yeah, CMC was a starting point, but then I went off to do this. So, now I'm involved with this overseas ministry or now I'm really actively involved in my church or, you know, I made steps to really try and repair my marriage or there's these organic outcomes that are spirit infused, right? They're Jesus is doing things as a result of what we get to be a privilege of being a part of. So, the catalytic work of discipleship informs things beyond our ministry so that we have to be bold enough to say the end state for CBMC isn't necessarily, we're going to recycle you through and make you a leader and you're going to help us grow this thing and we're going to just kind of kick the doors down and have more CBMC. It, hopefully we do that, but same time, the more important message is, are we helping men discern what God's calling them to do and be? And then they need to go do it and that may release them. Yeah, it might pull them away from CBMC, but that's okay. Absolutely. Yes. I think that's really crucial. Let me, let me ask you a question and this is, it's sort of like the, as we get close to the end of the interview, I like to ask people this question and then just sort of hear what they think from their perspective because you're in a unique ministry position. And so what do you think the body of Christ needs to be thinking about today to help them be and make more faithful disciples? Yeah, I'll start with me because that's a, that's a weighty question and I will tell you that as I progress in my faith, and I'm trying to remember, you know, the writers and theologians who've mentioned this and I didn't quite understand them at the time, but it's like the, the further I get down the road and the closer I get to really taking the words of Jesus serious, the more estranged and alienated I feel towards the, the institutions around me. And, you know, I'll pick on one alone. It's Jesus says, you know, love and then he says, love your enemy. And he tells us, you know, love your neighbor and you know, love God and love your neighbor. And it, that's great. Slap that on a Hallmark card. I mean, that's awesome. But if you really take that serious, then all of a sudden, I, everything that's being thrown at me daily to pick a side, choose, to identify someone that I can have animosity towards or hate or whatever it, you know, it's so much easier to live in that space where I create clear lines and boundaries where it's like that person, that group, that nation, that people group, they're bad. That's wrong. That's in. And here I am following Jesus who's saying, I love them all. And your problem today is to figure out how to love them. That's just mind blowing. And to me, that's an, that's an example of a bigger narrative of like, when you take Jesus serious, it really does create that. Um, you know, Stanley Hauerwas talked about resident aliens, you know, this idea. I am a citizen of another, of the kingdom. And that creates all kinds of challenges for me in this world. And I got to figure out how to live that out. Do I live that out as a jerk? Do I live that out as someone who is kind? Do I live it out with humility? Do I live it out with, you know, how do I live this out? But to your question, the body of Christ, I just think that's, there's something there that this world is yearning for because the, um, the levels of polarization, the levels of, uh, of fragmentation are, are so great right now that we need believers that are willing to really take serious what Jesus said so that, I mean, we do some things that are so radical that they demyth the gospel once again. Um, I, you know, we all live in places where it's challenging spiritually. In Colorado, uh, it's, it's a very, I mean, we've got some amazing expressions of Jesus at work. Don't get me wrong, but it's a, it's a tough place to be a believer. It's a, it's a crucible. And, um, and everyone can point at, again, back to the earlier part of our conversation, the stereotypes, right? That like, well, you guys are this, or this is what you believe, or this is, and, uh, and it's a day in an age where, again, this, this notion of like, well, if my biggest problem is I just got to figure out how to love this person who can't stand me because they think I'm X, Y, and Z. Right. Okay. Let's figure that out. Um, and, and let's lean in and then let's lean in into the spaces and domains of society where, you know, Christians are just not showing up, but Jesus did in the gospel. Um, I think those things alone are where the wrestling match is. And, and

That's where I'm at. But where I see it, not just in word, but in action, it's like, oh wow, it's powerful. But it's a target. And I also believe it's disruptive. Jesus was the best marketer in the universe. And the fact that he was, lo and behold, but he was disruptive. I mean, and his marketing message was, I never would have picked it, but it's so disruptive. But he, he spoke to what is clear and true and it was so disruptive that people got mad. And I think that the church has to be prepared for internally and externally. If we choose to follow Jesus, it's gonna be disruptive. Yeah. No, I'm, I mean, just as you're saying that, you know, love your enemies, the disruption, I think is a great word for it because you think about not only the changes you'd have to make in inside yourself, right? Being around people who do hate you and trying to find ways that you, that you can love them requires a certain resilience and grit and a willingness not to be defensive, but to be, you know, loving and winsome and, and all those different things. But then you also think about what that would do to the church, you know, and, and the difficulties that that can create as we seek to be safer than probably we are, seek a security that isn't really bound to Christ. It's more bound to how safe we can keep ourselves and loving enemies would almost certainly challenge that. So I think it's a fantastic comment. I really appreciate it. Yeah, very, but really insightful. Love it. Well, I'm a, I'm the worst at it. So pray for me that I get better. You have to pray for us all that we get there. And maybe that's the best thing about the church, that it is such a beautiful mess in that when we can be okay with that. Yeah, it's just, it's gonna be so much easier to, you know, trip over ourselves and say, hey, yeah, this, this is what we're trying to do. And people gonna say, well, you suck at it. We can say, yeah, we do. We're not, we're not good at this. Of course, raise our, we'll be the first to raise our hand. Yeah. But yeah, that's the fun. I mean, that's the dynamic, fun, playful nature of the gospel, maybe rooted in disruption. So. Love it. Well, Joe, where can, where can folks find more information on Christian's Business and Connection? How do people like plug in and actually get involved? What does that look like? Yeah, thank you for asking. So I'm excited to tell you, it's pretty easy. You go to cbmc.com. That's our website. And a couple of things that I would just call out about that is, A, we're going to be launching a new website in March. Can't wait. It's going to be much easier, what I call customer journey for someone to learn how to get connected. But in the meantime, yeah, go there, soak it in. In the top kind of part of the portion of the browser, you'll actually see a link for something that advanced. That's a link into our free discipleship tools. So women and men can go in and access that. Use it for your church. Use it for your ministry. Rip it off. We want people to use it. It's really accessible. And that's a great, it's, it is, it's a, you know, you've got to create an account. You get in there and, and look around, but encourage people to do that. But yeah, take a look at cbmc.com. Okay. Very cool. And we'll link that in the show notes. And so folks can go there and maybe we can put a direct link to the disciple, the free discipleship resource as well in the show notes. So look for those folks when you're listening to this episode, if you're interested in getting involved in CBMC or whether you're just looking for great discipleship materials, we'll, we'll put those links in the show notes. Joe, thanks so much for being here. This has been a great conversation. Really appreciate the work you're doing and just God bless you as you continue doing it. Thanks for what you're doing. And I love your questions. Thank you for inviting me in this conversation. It's a great way to start the day. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's an early morning for, for both of us. Probably earlier for you than for me, right? A little bit, but not too bad. All right, sir. Well, take care and we'll catch everybody on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Hi, I'm Becca Cook, host of The Becca Cook Show. I lived as a gay man in Hollywood for many, many years until I had a radical encounter with Jesus 13 years ago. Since then, I've gotten my master's degree in seminary and published a book called A Change of Affection. On my podcast, The Becca Cook Show, I sit down with fascinating Christian scholars and thinkers to address the lies of the culture and bring the biblical truth to bear on those lies. To start listening now, go to lifeaudio.com or search for The Becca Cook Show on your favorite podcasting platform.