How Should Christians Build Resilience and Character in a Digital Age? A Conversation with Jay Y. Kim

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm James Spencer, and I am joined today by J.Y. Kim. He is a pastor and author of the book Analog Christian, Cultivating Contentment, Resilience, and Wisdom in the Digital Age. And so I'm excited about this conversation. You all know that I've talked about faith and technology an awful lot. And so this is going to be a good one. Jay, thanks for being on the podcast, man. It's great to have you. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Looking forward to it. Yeah. So why don't we start off, just give us a little bit of a background on why this book? What was the genesis of the book and your interest in technology and how it's influencing faith? And yeah, just give us the story. There's a couple of things. One is just where I live. I've spent the majority of my life in the San Francisco Bay Area, in and around a city called San Jose, which is kind of right on the southern tip of the Silicon Valley. So where I'm sitting right now as we're recording this conversation is like a seven minute drive from the big Apple spaceship, you know. So the church that I serve, our congregation, it's wild how high of a percentage of our congregants work in tech in general and specifically at Apple. So like my small group that I belong to, half of the group all work in the same building at Apple, the big spaceship, you know. So it's just a natural part of the ebb and flow of my conversations with friends as they're dealing with, you know, navigating the complexity of following Jesus while, like most of us, navigating our digital culture and our digital proclivities and leanings and tendencies and really for many of us, our digital addictions. And then the unique layer of the fact that so many of the people that I love and care deeply about are also, they spend their waking hours making the stuff that is just pervasive in our lives. So it's given me a really interesting perspective. So that's one part of it. And two, I mean, maybe more intensely, the reason I started thinking and writing about some of this stuff is because years ago I found myself a digital addict, you know. And I just, I tell some stories in the book where I had these really sobering moments of realizing that I was not actually living the life I want to live because my body had sort of re-acclimated to these digital addictions. And I just, I knew, I knew that God had a different way to live life and life to the full, as he says, you know, as Jesus says and offers. So, and then as a pastor, I started coming to the conclusion, well, if that's true for me, my sense is that that's true for most of our people, maybe all of our people. So that sent me on this whole path of, you know, prayerfully sort of assessing my own condition, doing a lot of reading and having lots of conversations like these with men and women who had thought deeply about some of this stuff. And so, yeah, that was the genesis of it. And I'm grateful, you know, I'm grateful to have gone on that journey. You know, whenever I found I talk about technology, one of the things that almost always comes up is this sort of statement. And you make it in your book and I've made it on a lot of my writing. It's like, we're not against technology, but, you know, you almost have to balance between being a complete and total Luddite where you're saying we should never touch a digital piece of equipment ever again. You know, this podcast shouldn't be happening. We shouldn't be using zoom. You're like everything should go back to the stone age versus saying, no, there's a way that we can use technology that actually can enhance our lives, can enhance our humanness, but we've got to be really careful about how we do that. And there are probably, I don't know whether you'd agree with this, but I think there are ways in which the products themselves and probably the manufacturers often want us to use those in ways that we probably shouldn't use them. And so I guess my question is, how do you navigate that sort of landscape? Yeah, I mean, I think you just said it. I love what you said, you know, how do we use this technology in a way that enhances and amplifies our humanness or the Imago Dei in us and all that comes with that rather than allowing, and this is what has happened for most of us, allowing the tools to use us and then we become the tool, you know? And then you talked about it. I mean, really the underlying reality is the bottom line, especially of big tech. The bottom line demands that we, the users become like users, you know, in the worst sense of the word. You think about like drug addiction, that's what pads the bottom line of big tech. As long as we are incessantly scrolling and swiping and clicking, it doesn't really matter what we're scrolling through, how we're swiping, which direction, why we're clicking. That really doesn't matter. It's the very fact that we continue to do that, that pads the bottom line. So if you think about it that way, you know, tech companies are incentivized to keep us addicted because it is our addiction and our ongoing, never-ending activity on these platforms that puts more dollars, you know, into the company. So I think awareness, like you just, you know, you said it so beautifully just now, like I think awareness of what these tools are incentivized to do to us and through us is really key. And then it gets really practical, I think. It's just about pragmatically reorienting our lives to make sure that the tools don't use us, but instead we are able to use and leverage the tools to enhance and expand and amplify the goodness that is God's breath of life in us as humans. And there's a way to do that. You know, these tools can't, I mean, you and I are having this conversation because of digital technology. And our hope, I think, is that this conversation will be an encouragement and maybe bring some sense of conviction and even confrontation in a really good way to those who are listening. And in such a way that it, again, it amplifies their Imago Dei, a reminder to be more human and to live into the embodiment of being made in God's image. But we're able to do that because of a digital technology. But it's because you, as the host, you know, are curating the podcast in such a way that the technology is being used by you and I as humans to bring good into the world rather than the tool or technology using us to pad the bottom line. Well, I appreciate that. And I think one of the things that I really enjoyed about your book is that you seem to deal with shifts in mindset. So that word you use, reorientation. I think it is. It's adopting a different posture within the world. And so I'm thinking specifically, you know, one thing that really stood out, the joy instead of comparison chapter. It starts to get at that keeping up with the Joneses sort of idea that whenever something new comes out, we just we look at it and it's bright and shiny and has all this potential to give us what, you know, maybe happiness, maybe greater fulfillment or something like that. But you're advocating for joy instead of that comparison for peace instead of contempt. You know, your chapters are sort of binary in that sense there. You know, it's one rather than the other. And I really appreciated that about the way you went about that. But maybe talk a little bit about how you think about new technologies coming out and what sort of posture we should adopt to those as opposed to, and I'm assuming you'd be advocate against, you know, just running after them like shiny objects, you know, that we should just run unintelligibly towards just no thought. Let's just go get the new thing. So, yeah, how do you how do you think about that? How would you counsel people on new technologies? Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. There is this British psychologist named Michael Asink in the 90s. And I think he was one of the first people to coin this. It's pretty popular now, but he coined this term, the hedonic treadmill. I talk about it a little bit in Analog Christian, but hedonic, you know, hedonism, pleasure. And then he calls it a treadmill because

On a treadmill, you're constantly running. I was just running on a treadmill this morning, you know, and I'm like, I was running and running and running, huffing and puffing, and that's good for my health, obviously, to run. But it's interesting about treadmills, like, you go nowhere. You literally are in the same exact place, which is a fine thing to do at the gym, but it's no way to live life, you know? It certainly is not the way to experience discipleship to Jesus, which is growth and progress and transformation slowly over time. It's static, but it gives you the feeling of progress because you're moving. You know, when I was running on the treadmill this morning, if you looked at me after I left the gym, you wouldn't know the difference. Did Jay just go for a two-mile run up the hills, or did he just stand in place and move his body for, you know, 15 minutes? And it was the latter, not the former. But you would not know because it looks and feels like motion. And I think new technologies, especially today because of the speed, you know, Tristan Harris, who's a social commentator, he's famous for that Netflix documentary. He's one of the principal featured people in that documentary, The Social Dilemma. Tristan Harris talks a lot about one of the most dangerous factors about new technologies is not even the technology itself, but it is what he calls the arms race. Like, companies are competing, so they need to take technology to market before their competitors. Again, that's why he calls it an arms race. And so there's this incessant sort of, incessant, built-in, frenzied, hurried, reckless speed attached to new technologies. So what we're seeing happen, you see it a lot with AI today. Companies in this immense competition to get to market first, they are just releasing products at incredibly rapid pace without doing all of the hard work, philosophically and for Christians, like theologically and ecclesiologically, asking deeply, what is this going to do to our, like, humaneness, as you put it? You know, what's it going to do to our discipleship to Jesus? It's not that we shouldn't use the technology. It's that we should be more thoughtful and careful and cautious before we just unleash it out there. And I think that's the key, is we have to recognize we're running on this treadmill. Like, we're just the next thing, the next thing. We're chasing, we're chasing, we're chasing. But chasing doesn't necessarily mean arriving. It doesn't mean you've gone from point A to point B in a beautiful, healthy way. Running, running, running on the treadmill could actually mean that you've gone backwards, that we've actually been, you know, it's a net negative, not a net positive, in our discipleship to Jesus and our formation into Christlikeness. So I think followers of Jesus, when new technologies come out, we have to confront and withstand the cultural magnetism of jumping on board as quickly as possible for fear of being left behind, recognizing that jumping on board recklessly at speed and at pace could actually mean falling behind, becoming less human, you know, less fully integrated, whole human beings made in the image of God. So I just think we need to take deep breaths, slow down, don't let the urgency of culture make you urgent, you know, or anxious, and go at the pace of God, not at the pace of culture. Yeah, so what I found interesting as we look at AI and the way it's being implemented, I see what you're suggesting, like it's this arms race that the companies are getting it out there. But I also think it's interesting for us to stand back and look and ask ourselves the question, well, how is it being done? AI was coming out right around the time when people were really questioning Facebook and Instagram and the effects that it was having on our brain. And yet, if you looked at your basic terms and conditions on almost any AI platform, they're doing the exact same stuff. It wasn't that much different than what the model for Facebook and Instagram. I mean, this is available for free. And it's just interesting to me that we're not catching on to free is not free. Free means there's no money exchanged up front, but that we're putting our skin in the game in very different ways. And I think that entangles us in a lot of ways that we wouldn't otherwise get entangled. You know, I mean, would we really buy this if AI were a hundred dollars a month? Would any of us really be paying it? Right. I mean, we wouldn't, you know, maybe we wouldn't even pay for Google search. I don't know. You know, but for some of this stuff, like if there were an exchange up front that was very transparent and had a monetary value, maybe we wouldn't. Right. But I think the way it's been constructed, the way the data is monetized on the back end and all that kind of fun stuff. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed with inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty? More families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579 to run into this. And so there is an unreflective aspect to it that for Christians, to your point, we do need to stand back and really understand not only how we could use the tool, but the potential for how that tool can act back on us, which is a scary part. You know, well, let's dig into a couple of these that you've got in your book. One of the ones I really thought was impactful was kindness and goodness instead of hostility, that chapter. And I'm wondering if you can just take me through what led you into that chapter. You know, what hostility were you seeing and how is that manifesting? And yeah, specifically, maybe even in your congregation or wherever it is that you saw it. But what hostility are you talking about there? Yeah, I mean, you know, as a pastor, first of all, I consider pastoring to be an immense privilege and an incredible joy. So this is not this is not like me sort of like complaining about my plight as a pastor. I can't imagine doing anything else, you know, and I'll do this for as long as God calls me and invites me. But as a pastor, my my inbox is an interesting place. And I happen to pastor and this isn't true just for folks who pastor large churches. It's true for all pastors, I think. But I happen to pastor a large, fairly large congregation here, at least for Silicon Valley. So there's a lot of people here, which means I get a lot of emails. And I just I began to notice and I think, you know, many brilliant men and women have written extensively about maybe the sort of social psychology of some of this. But, you know, beginning in 2016, I really saw something happen, like something really shifted and it had been building for probably at least a solid decade before, you know, at least since since the sort of pervasive rise of Internet everywhere in the early 2000s, late 90s, early 2000s. But something happened, you know, with the at that sort of perfect storm of the political climate that was the tension of 2016, regardless of what political affiliation or leaning you have. That's not my point. My point is just our country got very divided. It was already divided, very polarized, but uniquely so. And I don't think it had to do with, you know, Clinton or Trump or, you know, in 2020, Biden or Trump. I don't think it was primarily about the people. It was they became sort of a harbinger for, you know, or a container for all this stuff that had been sort of bubbling up to the surface all around us and this sort of lightning rod moment of of the election in 2016 and then 2020. And then especially with 2020 with COVID and some of the civil racial unrest in our country and all of the noise surrounding that. I feel like as a pastor, what I saw happen was hostility went from being a jarring sort of snap you out of the comfortable reality experience. And instead, dangerous.

Please, hostility became sort of the air we breathe. I saw this online. I saw it obviously on Facebook and Twitter and even Instagram and elsewhere. But I really saw it like sadly unfold in our bodies, you know, like when people gathered together, there was a sort of angst and walls being put up in a way, a lack of safety amongst one another because of, you know, public discourse that was unfolding online. I saw real-life friendships come crumbling down because of Facebook posts. I saw this time and time again in our church, in my own life, with personal relationships, people that I loved who just all of a sudden were at odds with one another, not because of anything they had said or done to one another directly, but because one party had posted a particular thing on Facebook or on Twitter, and it just unfolded in real life in such a way that, you know, hostility became this like, sadly, this sort of like dirty, comforting blanket we all put on ourselves to cover and protect ourselves from one another. And what it did was it really began to amplify and accentuate what was already happening, which was like this growing sense of isolation and disconnect and loneliness amongst us. And we began to see each other as the caricatures that media wants us to be, you know, because caricatures work really well on the feed, you know, because feeds are what I said earlier, by nature, they need us to go quickly. Like my thumb needs to keep scrolling and swiping and clicking. That's what keeps the feed fed, essentially. And that the way you do that is you caricaturize everything. You essentially dupe human beings into the lie, the myth that other people are just simple and easy to read and understand based on a few posts or whatever. And I saw that happen, you know, and it was fueled by hostility, which became increasingly hostile toward one another. So I just think the Spirit of God does a different work in us, you know, it makes us kind and good in a much deeper way. I found it interesting, just the way you're talking through that, the way it dovetails with something else you address in the book is self-control versus reckless indulgence and the system one, system two thinking that Kahneman sort of pioneers. So system one, just for people who aren't familiar with it, it's almost like the quick intuitive system that uses pre-existing frameworks and concepts to do what you're talking about, kind of categorize and make quick judgments, see a cohesive story. There's not a lot of analysis being done. Usually if there's evidence that doesn't fit that cohesive story, system one would toss it, right? It wants to be to have a cohesive story. System two is the slower thought process, uh, that, um, sort of takes into account additional data, looks for that nuance, looks for that, maybe a reframing of a situation. But that requires effort. And so, um, you know, you have these system one, system two, but what I find fascinating in what you said is that part of the hostility is driven by this categorization and it sort of lends itself to a lack of self-control because we are running into all of this content, which we, before, we had sort of outsourced the management of a lot of this content to publishers, newspapers, all that kind of stuff. We didn't have access to it. But as soon as the internet really opened up and you started to have blogs and podcasts and all that kind of good stuff, now we have to bring that operation for, for what is good content to listen to. We have to bring that internal. And it doesn't seem like we're particularly good at it. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, maybe comment on that, that self-control aspect and how you see that playing out as we're, as we're just barraged with all this content. Yeah. As you know, we've got it all coming at us. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, the Kahneman stuff on system one, system two, it's in his book. The book is several years old now, but still incredible work that I would suggest and recommend to anybody. It's called Thinking Fast and Slow. And I love the title because we are being hardwired by our environment and by our, our technologies to think fast and only to only think fast. Only fast. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there's a lot more to it. You know, it actually connects to some neurological research on, on attention, human attention. And what they say is, what Kahneman calls system one, neurologists would have different names for it, but it would, they would call it something along the lines of top-down attention. And what that means, it's a fancy way of saying like, essentially, it's our animalistic primitive brain. It's it's the, it's the part of your mind and it's the neurological processes that were actually highly necessary in a primitive world when we were foragers in a forest and survival was all about, you know, catching your food. But there were competing beasts in the field going after that same little rabbit, you know, and you had to constantly be on the lookout. System one is like intuition, like quick read of my environment and then make a, make a decision. And that's really necessary when You're a tribesman in the savannah, you know, looking for food, but there are lions on the plains looking for the same food. You got, your head has to be on a swivel, you know? And so it's really helpful in that way. But because of the speed of the digital age, we are defaulting to that same way of thinking almost all the time. But that's really destructive when we're not hunting for food, fearful of lions that are out to devour us. When we began treating our neighbors and our coworkers or friends or fellow congregants at church as competing animals on the plane, you know what I mean? Like, and you start to see, that's what caricaturing is. It's like, oh my gosh, that person voted for candidate X and your head's on a swivel. What are they going to say next? I've got to attack. I've got to pounce before they do. I've got to have a defense. And that, that is just not, I just don't see anything like that in the New Testament vision of what it means to be the people of God. If anything, what we see in the Jesus ethic is the literal opposite of that, you know, like love, love your enemies, turn the other, it's just like so crazy. You're like the way the early church is born, you know, these people who have, they really have nothing in common. There's nothing that should bind them together. They don't even speak the same language and yet they gather as the people of God and they sacrifice for one another and they have everything in common, it says, which is like such a fascinating turn of phrase. They actually have nothing in common, but in Jesus now they have everything in common. They sell their possessions to make sure no one lacks for you know, food and drink and shelter and all those sorts of things. So I just, you know, it's the, the digital age, if we are not careful, it will undo in us what it means to be the people of God. And it will turn us into hunters gatherers out on the sort of dangerous, treacherous plains of humanity. But that's not, that's not how we forge Christian community. And I was seeing that, you know, in me actually, and in our people, hostility and reckless indulgence and on and on. So yeah, I just think there's a better path forward. Since you brought up the idea of community, I, I think this is interesting. So I, I kind of grew up in online education. That was my first career was higher online, higher education. And so I, we found when we could do online programs that we could cultivate a certain level of community and connection within online courses. And so when I jumped out of higher ed and, and started looking at social media, looking at technology more generally, I was of the mindset of, oh, this could be good for cultivating community. And I still believe that to a certain degree. I think what I found was this, and maybe you'll resonate, maybe you won't, but I just be interested in your take. I think there are certain things that have to be present in order to form a community and that digital side can, can have those, but oftentimes it's required of me as an individual using the digital to do things like hold myself accountable, to communicate in a transparent fashion, right? To make it, make what I'm saying as clear as possible. And you could say that that's, that's also involved in every other sort of structure, but let's say like an online course, there's usually policymakers there, you know, there are like academic deans and faculty who are over that, who are pushing students to do it this way. Like, let's make sure that these policies are in place.

Hey, so let's make sure the structure is in place. No, you can't speak to one another like that. There are going to be penalties and consequences. There's an imposed accountability as opposed to a necessary accountability, but no real imposition of accountability. And so I guess I'm wondering, A, whether you agree with that or whether you'd add anything to that and just sort of talk through it. So that's one. And then two would be, it seems to me that our digital, quote-unquote communities draw people away from the physical communities in part because it is a much freer setting. I have no, I can be whoever I want to be anonymously online. I don't actually have to be accountable to anyone. And so there's a recreative aspect to it that's a little scary. And I'm not sure how widespread that is, but it just seems to me that that is one dynamic we're dealing with here. So I don't know, I'm just throwing out some thoughts and for your comment. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree with you more. I think, you know, and you're you're opening the door to like all sorts of other interesting conversations about institutions and what the digital age has. I mean, the data is, is just unbelievably undeniably clear now that over the course of the last 25, 30 years, American trust at a broad level in institutions of any kind, not just the church, not just government, but just anything that seems like an organized institution. American trust and confidence in institutions has like fallen off a cliff, much of that deservedly so. Like I, I get it. Like a lot of it, you know, there's been so much failure and then again, with digital technology, those failures, the news about the failure is in your back pocket at any moment. So it feels like institutions have failed humans since the beginning of humanity. So it's not, it's not that that is new. It's not like, oh my gosh, organizations and institutions used to be perfect. And then it was like, you know, the sixties and seventies, they just all started declining. No, like institutions and organizations have always failed us to a certain, and some have been great. Others have been, you know, whatever, but it's just now this, you know, the 24-hour news cycle and there's all sorts of interesting research being done or that has been done on the psychology of the news crawl at the bottom of your. Whatever news network of choice, whether it's CNN or, you know, Fox news or MSNBC, whatever, whatever you watch, you know, uh, there's always the news crawl so that when you go to the two minute commercial break, there's a reminder. And just next time, as a fun exercise, pay careful attention to the way they word the news crawl. It is never, it is never is a strong word. 99.9% of the time, it is not some like gentle, kind, you know, encouraging, inspiring thing. Like next we're going to hear from a gardener who, you know, changed inner city Detroit by bringing, you know, fresh vegetables to under-resourced populations. It's never that it's always, you know, whatever, some failure in some institution and how we're going to, you know, and all of that to say, it's a long roundabout way of saying. I think that that is, it's, it's easy to blame social media and news media for that. And I do think social and news media deserve some blame there, but I actually think it's really primarily a consequence of our sort of reckless deification of individualism and autonomy. Like we are a culture that worships the self and we would never say it that way, but just think about the way we plan our lives, the way we spend our time, our resources, our energy, the way we prioritize the concept of community is like, we like the idea, but we do not embody the idea in any way. Like it's really about convenience, not commitment to a community. It's about personal convenience, not commitment. So then when you talk about online community, man, I also agree. I think that certain parts of community, elements of communal connection are possible online. Like, like just the fact that you and I are having this conversation, I for one am enjoying this conversation. Yeah. And so I feel this affinity, but you and I would both agree. I think, man, if our friendship continued at some point, there would be a limitation to this. And what we would need is like a meal, you know. Face to face. And we'd have to do this over multiple days to really get to know one another. And we probably wouldn't record it. And, you know what I mean? Like all of those different things. So, yeah, I 100% agree. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we've got to pay attention to that. It's not to say, like you said earlier, neither of us are Luddites. We're not saying don't ever jump on Zoom again. What we are saying probably is recognize the limitations, leverage the technology to do the thing it can do, which is probably initiate connection, begin to sort of tease out potential deeper levels of connections that might exist. And then let that lead you to more embodied incarnational experiences where real deep connection can unfold. Nice. Well, how do you, I run into this an awful lot. We actually run a campaign, Go Dark, Shine Bright. It's a seven-day social media fast that we encourage people to set aside their voluntary use of social media. We recognize some people do this for their job or what have you. And so setting that aspect aside isn't going to happen. But most of us have discretionary digital use that we could get rid of for a time. And so we encourage people to get rid of that and study God's word, pray. And we provide some of those. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. materials to help people do that. We've run that over the last three years and it's been good, but relative to the number of people who are actually using digital media, it's fairly small. I mean, for our organization, we've done over 150,000, I think, now. But it's still tiny compared to the amount of Christians who are using digital media. And so the question becomes, how, when you're interacting in these spaces, what's your counsel to people to sort of break the social media addiction, to step away from this, to get more discerning, to develop love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, all these things you deal with in your book? How do they go about doing that on a practical day-to-day basis? Yeah, I mean, it's a wonderful question. And I think that a decreasing... trying to live a less and less digital life is sort of an acquired taste. So that happens over time. You know, we've become so digital. We've become so addicted that the cold turkey thing works for some people, but it works for very few people. So for most people, what I recommend, again, getting very nuts and bolts here, and I got this from Andy Crouch, his book, Tech Wise Family. And Andy has become such a helpful thinker and leader and friend to me over the last several years. But he's got this really practical thing he invites people to, and I started instituting it in my life and in our family's rhythm when I first read it years ago. But it's a rhythm of digital Sabbath. So what he suggests is one hour a day, one day a week, one week a year. And anybody can do that. I believe everybody can do that, no matter how digitally addicted. So can you take one hour out of your day, out of your waking moments, where you disconnect from all things digital? Not just your phone, but like no laptop, no television, no email, and just be human and embodied with your loved ones or just quietly on your own. Take a walk or go to the gym, read a book, whatever. Just a human experience without any digital technology, one hour a day. And then can you do that for a whole day, a week?

Maybe it's not the whole day. Maybe it's just sort of I commit after breakfast on Saturday until I finish dinner on Saturday, I will have a non-digital experience every single Saturday, and then one week a year, you know, which is more daunting. But when you take a vacation or whatever, like, is there a way you can do that without digital technology? And that's something we instituted in our family rhythm many years ago, several years ago, and it's grown now. So it's actually, you know, a few hours a day for us. It is a day a week. It's usually every Saturday. And from when the kids, we have two young children, so from the moment our kids wake up on Saturday until they go to bed Saturday evening, we're a non-digital family. And we're not like militant about it, right? It's not about a letter of the law. It's about the spirit of the law. So I still have my phone on Saturday. It's just I don't have email or social media or any of that. I have it for directions. So when we're driving to the farmer's market, I know where to go. It's little things like that. But I'm not checking email or news or media, none of that. And then the one week a year for us has turned into a couple of weeks a year now when every summer I take a little break with my family. And again, we're non-digital. I delete everything from my phone except the essentials like maps and, you know, Yelp so I know where I can get good coffee, whatever part of the country we're in, you know, that's important. Yeah. So yeah, like that's a great way to start. Another thing that we do in our family is our phones are not in our bedrooms. There's no digital technology in our bedrooms. Our phones get docked, my wife and I at least, our phones get docked in the kitchen and they stay there when we go to bed. So when I'm laying in bed, I'm talking to my wife or reading a book. So little things like that, you know, I think begin there. And what happens is, so as an example, my two weeks a year has turned into much longer than that now. So I've been, for example, I've been off social media since May and I'll be off until I come back from summer break in August. And the weirdest thing is when you can build your appetite toward this, like, honestly, I do not miss it. And I kind of dread going back. And I have to go back because of, you know, some writing things and I want to honor my partnership with publishers and stuff. But I, I don't miss it at all. You know, I don't know what's going on on Instagram or Twitter or whatever. And it's a beautiful thing, but I would not have said that two years ago. Two years ago, I'd be like jittery and like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to log back on. So it's possible for, for all of us. So that's what I would recommend, you know, start with some rhythms and then watch them grow as your appetite changes. You know, I don't know, and I don't buy into the whole generational things. When I say this, I'm not, you know, trying to be sort of stereotypical across the generations, but I was, I grew up, I would be technically classified as a Gen X person. And so I can remember, I always tell my kids, I went to college without a laptop. I had a, you know, a little word processor had this tiny green screen on it and I typed my papers up and I had a printer hooked to it. No internet. You know, if you wanted to go to the internet, you were using the library's broadband for whatever that was worth or bumming a, you know, a dial up modem off of your buddy. And so, you know, the concept of even having a cell phone with me was new. I don't think I carried a cell phone at all until I was well into my late twenties, early thirties. I just didn't have one. You know, what if I was going to carry a bag phone? Like they just weren't around. And so I think in a lot of ways, and I think you're about, we are probably around the same age. You would have grown up with a lot out of a lot of digital technology. And so for me, it's sort of like a return to a previous age where none of this stuff was that essential. I mean, yeah. And so, but I think we have it. How do I want to say it? I think it's fortunate that we grew up without it because we know it's not essential. And so when we're stepping away from it, we have other things that we know we could like all this stuff got accomplished without digital technology. It's probably going to be, it's going to be okay. But I think we've lived through that and have that. I don't know. I find that I have that sense of it, that a lot of these things that we've got are interesting, but, you know, yeah. And so, but I think younger generations, and maybe this is the, you know, coming in for the question, like, do you find that younger generations struggle more with this simply because their default setting is only, it hasn't been switched. It's just been on the whole time. This is digital technology. Do you, do you find that, and maybe not with your kids, but with younger people in the church, you know, the sort of quote unquote digital natives that came in and all this is all the only world they've known. Do you find that with them? Yeah, I think it's exponentially more challenging for emerging generations, you know, digital natives, natives who are born into an internet world. Yeah. You know, what they say is that you and I, because I'm, I'm considered like a zelennial, I guess, you know, because I was born in 79. So what they say is like 77 to 82 or something. You're that weird bridge where you remember a pre-internet world Gen X, but you're very accustomed to and comfortable with an internet world, you know, millennials and on. And I definitely feel that way, just like you. Like I, I'm not, you know, I'm getting older, but I don't feel like the old person that's like, what is the TikTok? You know, I'm not that person. Like, I'm very comfortable and aware. It's like, Oh yeah. Like TikTok is or like Snapchat and younger people use that for whatever. But then at the same time, I totally remember my high school days, middle school and high school, you know, it was late high school is when I first got an email account, you know, Hotmail. I remember. And I was like, what is this? This is amazing. So yeah, we're in an interesting place, but I agree. I think that, um, post Gen X and Zolennial generations have a, a really unique challenge because they have not known a world that was not digitally connected. But it's interesting though. Um, some of my thinking has, I was really down about that for many years. Like, Oh my gosh, what do we do? Like young people are just born into this. They don't know anything else. And then going back to Andy Crouch, I was with Andy at this gathering a few years ago and he said something that was, it, it just like in a beautiful way, broke something in me. He said somebody mentioned that term digital natives. And Andy said, you know, he, he said, I understand the term, but if you really think about it and what that term implies, there are no digital natives and there will never be digital natives ever in the history of humanity. And he went on to explain, he said, no human is born digitally. No human has an early sort of entry into the world experience that is digital in any way. Humans are born in body, like, you know, without getting graphic, like the literal experience of birth is one of the most in car literally in the flesh, incarnational experiences that you can imagine. And there is no other way to enter the world. There is no other way to become human. Even with all of the conversation around AI and where that will lead us, it's like, no, no, no. To be human is to be incarnational. And then he just went on to talk about that. And I just found it so hopeful. Like even emerging generations, my children who were born into a totally digitized world, a completely internet world, it's like, man, they're humans and they have something in their DNA that even if they're, you know, in their subconscious, like their body remembers when I was born, I was held and I was seen and I was cared for and embraced and covered and fed and cleaned up and every human being has that. And I think what that means is it gives us the potential to remind even emerging generations that there is a way to be human that is immensely beautiful and profound that has nothing to do with technologies and ones and zeros. It's definitely, I take his point, digital natives. Yeah, you're not born digital at all. I almost feel like you're converted into it. You know, it becomes something that you're converted into, but the nice part about that is that the church should understand how to deconvert someone. You know, discipleship then becomes crucial to helping this younger generation really become truly human without the digital side and to understand themselves as maybe swimming in digital water, but not actually being fish, you know. And so I think that's great. I love that. Hey, we're coming in kind of close to the end of the hour here. And I wanted to ask a question I ask every guest. And so what topic do you think that the church should

In making, in being and making disciples for Jesus Christ. Yeah, I mean, per this conversation, it's not an accident that the go-to metaphor for discipleship and formation into Christlikeness is agricultural in the New Testament. And some people might say, well, that's because they were an agrarian society. And maybe that's true, but there were a number of metaphors Jesus and the New Testament writers could have used that are much faster, much more expedient than fruit growing on vines. Way more. I mean, Jesus was the son of a carpenter. And you can argue what that means, tecton. Like maybe he was a stonemason or he was a woodworker. Either way, you know, carving out a chair or chiseling away at a rock to make it a block for a building or whatever. It's still faster than growing fruit, which takes months. And then you only reap the harvest like in season, you know? It's much faster. Like there's a plethora of metaphors Jesus could have used, but he and the New Testament writers intentionally use agricultural metaphors. They use vine and branches sort of language. And I think that's what we need to lean into. We need to embrace that reality, that as culture tells us, you know, the sort of up and to the right, constant up and to the right culture that we live in, where everything is like, you got to get more and you got to get it faster. Followers of Jesus, I think, need to slow down as culture speeds up. And we need to go at the pace of agriculture. We need to go at the pace of fruit bearing, you know, not microwaving. And that's really hard to do. It's really hard to do. But I think if and when we can do it, it will unlock a sort of peace and satisfaction and joy in us that I think we sorely lack today. It's funny you bring that up, and I appreciate that. I love that angle on it, the agricultural piece. It's one of the things I've been really thinking about lately is when we look at a spiritual discipline like fasting, I think sometimes what we forget is how much more time fasting would have gained you in Jesus's day than it does today. Right? I nuked my lunch in between meetings in about five minutes. That meal prep time is nothing compared to what you're looking at in the New Testament age. You know, getting food, finding food, sitting down and eating food, it would have been an event. Nowadays, we can scarf down Mickey D's in the car in about, you know, 10 minutes. So what is fasting really gaining us? And as we've sped up, as gone up and to the right, like you described, and have lost that sort of more agricultural, which is a slower development well over time, I think we've got to rethink the way we practice even our spiritual disciplines to make sure that we're not just giving up something that has become relatively trivial in our lives in order to spend time with God and to cultivate that kind of idea that you're suggesting. We've really got to think through, no, how do we move slower? We can't just default to a spiritual practice when everything else around us has changed. We actually may need to modify that spiritual practice and say, if this is what it's going to take for me to slow down, this is just what it is. Yeah. Well said. Well said. Yeah. I've never thought about it that way, about the fasting piece, but that's a fascinating idea. And I think it's true. Yeah, I think it's true. That's well said. Well, man, this was great. I don't often get to talk to folks who are as in the technology space as I am. So this was a lot of fun. And I appreciated the book. I think it's a great book. I recommend it to everybody. Analog Christian. Fantastic book. We'll put the link in the show notes. But but yeah, Jay, I really appreciate you being here and just thanks for taking the time, man. This was a good conversation. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, James. It was fun. Absolutely. Hey, everyone, we will catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to LifeAudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting and more. This is my sky ship dreamer. My cargo is stories. And our destination, dreams. With Abide Sleep Stories for Kids, you can help your children fall asleep fast and learn about God. To find these kids bedtime stories, go to LifeAudio.com or search your favorite podcast app for Abide Stories for Kids. You can also download the Abide app for more biblical meditations at Abide.com.