Ray Chang | Discipleship & the Future of the Church

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm pleased to be joined today by Raymond Chang. Ray is actually the executive director of the 10x10 collaboration at Fuller Seminary. And he's also the co-author of the book Future Focused Church. And we're going to be talking a little bit about both the initiative, the 10x10 initiative at Fuller, but also about the new book, Future Focused Church. So welcome, Ray. I appreciate having you on the show, man. It is so great to be with you, James. So I am familiar a little bit, very little with the 10x10 initiative. I'm remembering vaguely a meeting with a foundation that did some research and that kind of stuff. But I'm not even going to pretend to try to describe it or talk about it. And so I'm interested to see what this is, where it's gone from what I remember. And so maybe just give us a little intro to the 10x10. Yeah, so happy to do so. And thanks for having me on. So 10x10 is a collective impact effort out of Fuller Seminary who serves as the backbone institution of the collaborative that's seeking to make faith matter more for 10 million young people over the course of 10 years through a collaborative effort. And so we have over 140 partners that are engaged with the work that we're doing to activate relational discipleship that's radically focused on Jesus and then to really help address the issues that are leading to the disaffiliation and disillusionment of young people from the church, especially as they launch into the world. And so we're asking big questions around what will it take to engage the next generation in an effective manner so that they don't walk away from the Christ that we all know and love. And we're working with a collective of organizations to shift the drift and to stop the drop. There are studies that we're working off of that are suggesting that over a million young people are drifting from the faith every year. And so we're really concerned about that. And if nothing changes by 2050, between 35 and 42 million young people are expected to drop from or to decline away from the Christian faith. And so we're trying to ask the question about what do we do together to do that, to address this crisis. Okay. And was this, am I remembering right, Pinetops? Was that the original sort of foundation that started this and their concern was really this, as I recall it, the, and I don't think they use this language, but the rise of the nuns that we've seen sort of become more and more prominent. Is that the primary driver of a lot of this when you're talking about the disaffiliation of Christian, especially young Christian people, just deciding that this isn't what they want to claim to be anymore? Yeah. So, I mean, the Pinetops Foundation was instrumental in sparking this collective movement. And what they discovered through the research and the report, which is called the Great Opportunity Report, which you can download online. And I encourage people to do so. It's really kind of sparked a lot of great conversation is to address the disaffiliation of young people. What do you see as some of the major factors of that? I mean, I'm more familiar with, I would say, the exvangelicals and the deconstruction sort of movement, the political challenges that people, I think how people of faith think about politics has been one of the major drivers there. But then also just this gnawing feeling that there's something missing in the Christianity that I've been taught or that there's a duplicity there or something like that. But what do you see as the main drivers there? I mean, what you're identifying are probably among the key main drivers that we are seeing over and over again. And we're continuing to explore and looking for more research around, you know, what what's going on. But some some key challenges that the church is currently facing include a host of things, including what you're sharing. You know, we're finding that U.S. Christian leaders are dedicated, but they're drained. You know, according to 2023 data from the Exploring the Pandemic Impact on Congregation multi-year study, 53 percent of religious leaders have seriously considered leaving pastoral ministry from an already high 37 percent in about 2020. And pastors who are younger, female, part time or bicational are more likely to consider quitting. Weary leaders like these are also leading shrinking churches. The average church in the U.S. is getting smaller, not larger. The median worship size of a congregation has declined from 137 people in 2000 to 75 in 2023. And then, of course, we're seeing the rise of the nuns to what you're saying. And the number of Christians in the U.S. is is also shrinking and not growing. In 2007, about 78 percent of the U.S. population of adults identified as Christian. That figure dropped to 63 percent in 2021 and then is projected by Pew to drop below 50 percent in 2070 for the first time in U.S. history. And so the rise of the nuns are a pretty significant and stark reality where, you know, people who identify as atheist, agnostic or not believe in anything in particular has grown from like 16 percent to 29 percent. And so almost one in three U.S. adults identify as religiously unaffiliated compared to one in 20 in the 1970s or 1972. You know, there's also like this massive trust gap. You know, you're talking about the hypocrisy, the duplicity, the inability to engage faithfully and well and and charitably across lines of difference and especially political lines. You know, young people just don't trust institutions. Springtide Research came out with a study that said that 13 to 25 year olds are almost three times likely to say that they've been hurt by organized religion as a as a as and trust organized religion. And to what you were saying earlier, our hypocrisy, our moral failings, unkindness have really earned a lack of trust. And so, I mean, you can keep going into like why young people think that we're you know, that that churches and Christianity is irrelevant and unloving and inauthentic, which is a study that was done by Arbor Institute when they asked young people why other why their peers are leaving. And those are the three words that they came up with, you know, doing a survey in Dallas. So, and I don't want to be callous to those those reasons. I think those are really interesting. There's obviously the reason why people are leaving is actually pretty crucial. But then there's also a sense in which I feel like it almost doesn't really matter because the solution to all of these problems tends to get down to one thing, doesn't it? I mean, you guys are focusing on relational discipleship of youth. And if we do discipleship right, will not that sort of if I were picking my Band-Aid, right, if I were picking my my medical treatment here, discipleship is going to be the medical treatment I'm picking. And it's going to be a pretty broad spectrum antibiotic to take care of as much of the problem as we possibly have. I know that's a little bit of a simplistic view, but talk a little bit about that. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Yeah, I mean, we certainly believe that the best days of the church are ahead of us. In fact, that's the opening line of our book. And, you know, we're really optimistic about the future of both the church and the churches of those that are listening in and not listening into this podcast. Not because we're ignorant or naive of the major challenges that we're facing, but because we believe in a bigger God and our big God really invites us to be a people of hope grounded in the resurrection of Jesus, who makes all things new and shines light in the darkness. And one of the things that God shows us as a model in the

Life of Jesus and throughout all the Scripture is this kind of deep engagement in relational discipleship or what Dallas Willer would call apprenticeship. And we think that, you know, one of the things that we've seen over and over at 10x10 and other organizations that are part of the movement would say that we've relied too much on programming over, you know, investing in people or trying to be relevant instead of cultivating relationships. And really pushing out content instead of driving deeper connections with one another. And so, you know, our effort at 10x10 is driven by John 10 10's call and promise for those who follow Jesus to experience the full and abundant life. And we believe that one of the key components of that for young people, especially, to experience that full and abundant life that Jesus had is if there's an activation of intergenerational discipling relationships. And are you finding, I mean, I remember sort of sitting in the initial meeting with Plyntops and one of the questions that I was having with some of the people that also attended were, do we actually have a critical mass of older generation people willing and able to disciple younger generations? Have you run it? How how has that sort of worked itself out? I mean, I think that was sort of an itch in our brains. It wasn't sort of a, hey, this project is going to fail because we don't have it. The real question was, man, if we had the resources to be discipling, wouldn't we just be discipling? And so how have you seen that play itself out? Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I don't have a specific answer to that because we don't know whether people who are affiliated with Christianity are actually mature in their faith or, you know, true to the faith of Jesus that we see in the Bible. And so we see a lot of people that identify as Christian, but might not be walking like Jesus or talking like Jesus or living like Jesus or representing Jesus well. At the same time, we know that there are a lot of people that are doing faithful ministry and living lives of integrity and character that are in our faith communities throughout the country. And so there's a part of us that just hopes, like, if we can figure out ways for them to take more ownership or more responsibility of spreading the good news of Jesus through both word and deed, what that could look like so that there's a multiplicative effect across the communities that they're a part of. But to your answer, I mean, just by affiliation alone, we do think that that's part of the reason why this this like the timing of this is so really important because there's a there's a point in which we see a greater number of disaffiliated. There's a higher disaffiliation in these younger generations than with older generations. And so if we can and the assumption is that, you know, there are a percentage of those that are still affiliated that have to be closely walking with Jesus. And so if we can activate more of them, that would be great. And so, you know, you you will kind of move from 10 by 10 into the book a little bit, the future focused church. And one of the things I really liked about Future Focus Church is it and I don't mean this in a negative way. It sort of reads like a strategic change manual for the church, which I thought was great. I really enjoyed the way you guys put that together. And, you know, you're mixing biblical and theological references with HBR articles. Right. Which was kind of fun and cool. And so I really enjoyed the book. But I guess I'm wondering, you know, when you when when churches work through this, when they're trying to figure out what is our future vision? A lot of times when I've gone through strategic planning processes with schools or nonprofits, one of the things they tend to get stuck on is resources. And how do we have the resources to do this? They tend to get stuck in their capacity and they're they're usually when they get stuck. It's usually because they're unwilling to stop doing one thing in order to really plow in to this new direction. How are you how are you all trying to address that with a future focused church? What is that? What is that sort of stepping through change process look like in helping churches sort of, I don't know, mourn what they're going to have to stop doing and, you know, really own what they need to start doing? Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I think that, you know, it's helpful where where leaders and churches and faith communities can really think about what is occupying their time, their capacity, their resources. What we are offering through the book is a change map. And so I love how you picked up on that as you were reading through it. And we basically have a framework where we suggest that people need to go and consider like four very important zones to the journey. According to HBR, you know, the Harvard Business Review, 70 percent of all change efforts fail. And we know that, you know, Jesus didn't have a clear pathway. He he experienced a lot of resistance to change. There was a lot of calling for repentance and transformation and self-reflection and upending institutions and turning over tables. And so the question that you're basically asking is, how do churches successfully change? And as we've studied over a thousand churches, as they've prayerfully become and we've studied over a thousand churches, especially as they've prayerfully become more future focused. And in our in our study, we had churches that diverse in size and theology, a lot like the churches of those who are probably listening in today. And we suggest four important zones for people to consider in this journey. They have to remember, though, that this is not a quick fix, quick fix, quick this is not a quick fix, but a fully integrative process that requires attention and time and care. But here are the four zones here, there, who and how. We try to break it down to be as simple as possible. And so we we ask them to consider the here. Where are where are they now and why are they here? So to the things that you were talking about, like around capacity, sometimes people just add because someone has an interest, but it doesn't necessarily fit with the mission and the values and the vision of the church. And then that, you know, lots of mission drift and mission creep can happen. And so there needs to be an assessment of how we got to where we are. And so everything from the physical location to the people, the culture, the current sense of life and vitality, the the resources, the infrastructure programs and more need to be considered in terms of defining reality. You know, leaders first task is to define reality. The second thing is then there. Like where is actually God calling us? And sometimes the there is what we had originally articulated in the past, but then lost sight of or something new because God might be calling us to, you know, like to embrace a new wineskin. And so this is where you picture your church six months or six years or 60 years from now. The third piece outside of here and there is who. And so who are the people in your congregation or ministry and the wider community who must help shape this effort? Right. In in most churches, this encompasses your overall congregation, your leaders, as well as people who are not yet part of the church. But you really need to figure out who that core is that's going to help lead the change and and and cultivate a what we call a transformation team. And then the how, you know, what's the next faithful step? How might we move towards a more faithful future and so actually mapping out the steps towards the change that you want to see. And so these four things constructs your map, who, here, there, who, how. And this map really works for whatever you want to change. And so that's kind of what we're trying to help people walk with and walk through. Yeah, let's probe a little deeper into the who, because I think the transformation team concept is really interesting. And one of the things I liked about it, it isn't necessarily just, you know, your elders and your pastor, right? It's it's a broader community thought process. And my understanding was that you could even bring people outside of the church into that transformation team. So talk a little bit about that, how you how you all are conceiving of the transformation team and maybe some of the iterations that churches could think through. Hey, maybe this is the way you could go. This these are the type of people you want to look at for your transformation team. Yeah, I love this question. I mean, because and I love what you even suggested, like bringing people from the outside. That's I think that we have a piece like that in the book where we encourage people to bring in an outside auditor or someone who can look into like the culture of the church, the reality of the church. But the first key is who and and to identify this transformation team, which we encouraged being a group of five to 12 folks who are really dedicated to activating and advancing change within the community. You know, Jim Collins writes about how it's important to get the right people on the bus and the who should not ever be just you. It's really hard to bring change about on your own. And so the question you might be wanting to ask is, who are the right five to 12 people? And before finalizing those names, you know, we want you to hear, you know, a second key of who the people on the bus or on your transformation team should certainly be a diverse group of people who are going to bring diverse perspective and see things from different angles with different.

skill sets because that's gonna make the change stronger, especially as you're envisioning the future together. Back to HBR, you know, or Harvard Business Review, you know, one of the quotes that they pressed forward based on their research is that non-homogeneous teams are simply smarter. So I would encourage, you know, people to seek diversity in life stage, culture, and ethnicity, gender, a representation of a variety of ministry areas, and multi-vocational aspects because the church is not only made up of ministers. And so bring a lot of different backgrounds and perspectives. And that's one thing that my co-authors and I are really pushing for. And so there's a church called Loma Linda University Church that we write about, I think, in chapter three. It's a church that was large and segregated by age, which is normal and typical for a lot of churches. There was a lot of miscommunication that took place in siloization that resulted as a part. And the young adult ministry that was really struggling more and more. They've formed a transformation team to really help young adult ministries, but counterintuitively, didn't have a lot of young adults on it. And so they were basically a team that were telling young adults what to do, but young adults weren't able to shape their own reality. And so the key to a strong young adult ministry was actually connecting young adults with the rest of the church, that building those bridges between the generations. And so the Loma Linda University Church took this approach because the majority of the changes needed were not within the young adult ministry. Instead, what they realized was that the majority of the shifts that were required increased intersection and integration between young adults and other areas of the church. And so it was a broader church issue that needed to be addressed. And so, you know, it's a great example and a great picture of what, you know, churches could be and how like the having the right voices in that transformation team could make a difference. So talk a little bit about the, you know, the here and there, right? So, you know, you have this sort of current state that you're occupying and then you have a future state that you'd like to occupy. And when you bring the diverse voices around the table, which I agree, I mean, a lot of that diversity research, it does talk about the intelligence that you gain by having a more diverse team. And I think the example of the church you just gave is really sort of telling, right? Not having any youth on the transformation team when you're trying to transform the youth ministry just doesn't make intuitive sense. At the same time, how do people shape that vision for the there, right? The future that they're going toward without just doing sort of a hodgepodge of everything? And I'll tell you where I'm going with this. I mean, I've been part of strategic planning initiatives at academic institutions. And almost inevitably, what happens is everybody gets a little nibble within the strategic plan, right? And so it's like, well, we need to do, you know, X, Y, and Z. And you're going, well, but we can't really do all of those. And that's not a particularly focused mission, but it ends up not mattering because the 5 to 12 people around the table, and you probably have the wrong people on the bus. And so that's why I started with the team. But I think it's a temptation, right, to start divvying out aspects of the there, right, to define the future state just based on what the people around the table are interested in, as opposed to coming up with a more cohesive vision that isn't like a, you know, a patchwork quilt. It's more woven together than that. So can you speak to that, how you might counsel a church to maybe avoid the perils, at least that I've seen in higher ed? Yeah, I mean, that's so good. I mean, I think, like, you know, to what you're saying, that phenomenon and that pattern exists everywhere and it keeps happening, especially because they don't necessarily, especially in a complex organization, sometimes the people that are chosen to be on the transformation team are often yes people instead of people that might offer divergent voices and different perspectives. And they might not be trusted within the pockets of the community of the broader community. And so, you know, they might only represent one segment of the community. And we see that all the time, and I'm sure that you see that all the time in the higher ed world because there's just so many stakeholders and so many elements. But, you know, this is where I think, you know, for us, you know, we really want to encourage people, whether it's about the here or the there, to begin with listening. Like leadership really begins with listening. This is one of the things that our colleague at Fuller, Scott Cormode, often opens his class with. He always says, leadership begins with listening because, you know, whether you're discerning your here or you're discerning the there, God really can help make your make listening your church's or your organization's superpower. Let me give you a story and then I'll talk about the there, right? So there's a church that we also highlight called Wollongong Church, which is in chapter 5. And it's a multi-ethnic and largely immigrant church. And it's ecstatic that they're 40 of their hundred or so members were children and teenagers. And these 40 young people weren't just half-hearted attendees. They were active contributors who helped lead prayer sessions, participate in worship service, guide multimedia, and give input to board meetings. And if you look at them now versus looking at them five years ago, it was a completely different story. Five years ago, you would not be able to describe them as I just described them now. Five years ago, they only had five children and teenagers involved in the church. The key difference that was made at Wollongong was that leaders actually listened. They listened humbly. They listened deeply. They listened non-defensively. And they listened to God through prayer. And they listened without an agenda. They listened to young people and what adults felt about young people. And while the adults and the decision makers in the church certainly valued young people, some really weren't sure at the time that teenagers and 20-somethings could be trusted with real authority, real positions of leadership, and real influence in important decisions. And so the transformation team heard this and heard that, you know, young people were basically saying, we don't know how much young people can lead a message loudly and clearly. So they kept hearing that, that people felt like, we don't know how much young people can actually see. And so the transformation team actually helped the broader church board and the leadership of the church to listen to and better understand the young people that were with them, especially by inviting the board to experience the young people's leadership in action. And over time, through intentionality, the board's mindset changed, especially because they were in some ways observing and participating under the leadership of the young people, and they became more and more open to the leadership and influence of young people. And the youth ministry became youth ministering. So, you know, we often feel like young people are passive recipients to ministry, but this group of young people eventually became the ministers in the church that were ministering to other people. And their roles, though they started small, began to grow. And then, you know, they would even joke about how a church greeter, you know, once said that, you know, maybe this young person should be the one to preach a sermon next week. And the team, they weren't ready for the teen's response when they said, oh, I'd love to do that. And the more they felt like they were owning the church and they were an active part of the church, the more ownership they took over it. And so, you know, the here was really important, but it began with listening, and listening offered them a sober picture of what was actually taking place in the lives and the hearts and the perceptions of young people. Listening also really helps reveal mental models, which is essentially the way that we see and make sense of the world. It's what we think the world should be or our churches should be or our pastors should be or how young people should be involved. Listening also really helps lower resistance and it builds empathy and trust, you know, and so, and it helps young, it helps people become co-creators in the process. And, you know, one of the things that we talk about is how, you know, people support what, you know, what they help build. And so, yeah, those are some things that we are really encouraging is just, I mean, the act of listening is really powerful. And then to your question about the there, you know, like where do we go? I think we have to communicate a compelling vision for the future. And one of the things that we need, and this going back to Scott Cormode again, he describes that, you know, we need to craft a vivid statement by describing a shared story of future hope or articulating a shared story of future hope, but that there needs to be a process where people are involved in shaping. And, you know, here's a, we offer a five-step process to prayerfully discern the vision of the church. You know, the transformation team will discuss the results of the listening as well as the imagination that they have for their church in the future. After the meeting, then you invite each person on the transformation team to

Draft their own vivid description for the future. No more than one page, but you know, it could be a communal effort. And then the transformation team can invite others to help with that process. We also encourage people, thirdly, to then gather the transformation team again, allowing everyone to share their vivid descriptions and identify the key insight and ideas that most resonate with the group. And then fourthly, share the revised document with as many people as possible, inviting their feedback. And I think this feedback loop is really important. We talk about this all the time in the book. And then finally, in a final transformation team, incorporate that feedback and revise the vivid description that has a lot of buy-in because there are multiple stakeholders that have spoken into it and give them real meaningful opportunities to actually speak into it and to be honest. But, you know, the goal at the end of the day is to develop a short, clear, inspiring write-up, again, less than a page, that describes God's there and which can also be shared broadly with the congregation and then help people move in that direction and, you know, go on a vision tour. One of the churches that, you know, that we studied took their church on a vision tour with their vision statement, their kind of picture of what could be. And they did receive a lot of feedback, but it wasn't what they had hoped. Some groups couldn't find themselves in the descriptions or thought it was missing some really important elements. But despite this critical feedback, the transformation team was not discouraged. Instead, they mobilized to incorporate the opinions that they heard. And since their draft wasn't that exciting for others, they knew that it had to be revised, even though they had felt like it was done and they were ready to kind of take it towards action. You know, they kind of, they worked at it again and then eventually landed on a compelling description that was meaningful, not just to the transformation team, but to the whole vast majority of the congregation. And that buy-in and getting that input was really important because at the end of the day, we're all relationally driven. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. So that's interesting. I want to kind of switch gears. I mean, I think you all do such a great job in the book of giving, I think, churches some practical steps and tools to sort of walk through this and a good framework. It's really helpful. I think even the examples you provide are very helpful because it speaks to the ability for really relatively small changes if you stick with them to be an impetus for transformation and to move you into the future. And so I kind of want to I want to pivot and ask a question that came up for me as I was reading the book, which is. I wonder how much you're running into. Challenges due to preconceived notions about what discipleship actually is. Right. So, I mean, I got the I get inklings of this occasionally where it's like people want to fall back to the master plan of discipleship. Right. You know, you want to look at the model of Jesus's life, which is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that, obviously. But if that's the only paradigm we've got, my concern is that we are probably not going to reproduce that in today's world. It's a very difficult thing to do. And so how are some of the and that's just one of those preconceived notions that that I've run into. But I'm wondering how 10 by 10 and now Future Focus Church. How do some of those things sort of play themselves out as you're looking to help churches move toward being a future focused church? Yeah, I mean, the definition of discipleship is a really good one because I do think that while everyone would agree to some degree, there are a lot of differences on what that actually looks like and what it actually means lived out. And one of the things that we encourage people to do is really take a deep dive into your own tradition and to see what discipleship has looked like throughout your tradition. Because there are beautiful aspects of every tradition that responded to particular needs, deficiencies and opportunities in the times that they were formed. And over time, we're built upon, you know, like different frameworks. We also, there's a part of me that I just think like if you just have the Bible, a community of people that are committed to Jesus walking together and an openness to the Holy Spirit speaking to you and moving you in a real and meaningful ways. Like we see over and over that that's really like enough a lot of times. And so I wonder if a part of it is just slowing down, taking a pause and just allowing God to work in your life and in the life of your community. And again, not doing it alone, but doing it with others as, you know, as you allow scripture to interpret scripture and a community of faith to really sharpen you as iron sharpens iron. But, you know, at the end of the day, you know, discipleship is, I used to work at a Christian college and one of the things that I used to lead was, was the discipleship efforts. And I would just say it's, it's, it's, you know, people helping people to walk as Jesus walked in a community of faith. And so if we can just help people walk as Jesus walked, then what we need to do and what that requires is that we actually know the real Jesus. And so we want to make sure that people are knowing and following the real Jesus, which is part of what in the early conversation you brought up is like, you know, like what if some people are not following the real Jesus and what does that look like? It is challenging. I guess my follow-up question, and I'd just be interested in your experience with this. I think sometimes looking at, you know, if I take a step back from the church and I look at some of the things that we're doing, I'm wondering if we haven't created sort of a monster of our own making, right? You talked about, you know, content dissemination. You talked about programmatic aspects of this. So much of it feels very much product driven. Like we're going to produce something and then we're going to market that something and then we're going to hope that people come in and they, they sort of buy or buy into that product. And I think that's really difficult to get away from nowadays. It's really challenging to not think that you need a big social media account, that you need a snazzy church website, that these are the things that are going to get people in the door. And as you see churches shrinking, I guess my concern would be, and I'm wondering whether this concern is valid, whether the knee jerk reaction isn't, let's get more people in. Obviously that's a concern, but I'm just wondering what your take on that would be. Yeah, I mean, I think that what people sense and what they're intuiting, you know, they should lean into those things, right? Because there is a lot of inertia. Like once you start building budgets and putting money towards certain things and people get excited about this ministry and that ministry, and all of that has nothing to do with actually, you know, living out a full life with Jesus in community together. But it just simply becomes social programs where we just, you know, sing Kumbaya together or they become like, you know, nothing wrong with knitting classes, but, you know, like, you know, like those type of hobby things. You know, we might lose sight of the main thing. And so I do think that it's helpful to get a refresh from time to time and actually do an audit, a cultural and program audit to see, like, are we doing everything that the church is supposed to be doing? Because, like, the reality is the church can't compete with a lot of other things out there. Like, there are better sources of entertainment. There's better sources of socialization. There's more, you know, like the leagues in the church are not as good as the leagues outside of the church when it comes to sports and whatnot. And so I'm like, you know, like, why not, like, focus on the main things, you know, become experts on the things that God has called us to without losing sight of, you know, the, you know, like unique opportunities that we have to lean into some of the things that, you know, our congregations might uniquely be equipped to engage in. I don't know if that's answering your question, but I do think that, you know, there's an element of us just kind of taking a step back and seeing are we, are we doing the main things right? And what's it going to take to discern whether we're doing that? And maybe this is where, you know, your idea earlier of bringing someone in from the outside makes a big difference. Yeah, because I think it's interesting when I was reading through the listening sections of, or when I was reading through the listening sections of your book, one of the things that came

actual needs of the community that maybe we could jump into and use as a way for us to just take steps of faith and grow through that taking steps of faith, even as we're just trying to formulate where we want to go in the future. I think there's something, I'd be interested to hear you talk about it. I just think there's something interesting to creating movement in a new direction in order to inform our overarching future state, right? And so if we're a church who has traditionally just been, you know, sort of more isolated, more Bible study oriented, maybe more worship oriented or something like that. We really haven't done a lot of community engagement. Maybe community engagement is something we need to get a little experience in. And in doing and listening, now we have a different potential vision for the future of our church. Yeah, I would totally agree with you. And one of the things that we encourage in the book is to experiment at the edges. And sometimes if it's so disruptive to like the status quo, people might struggle with like a new direction. And so sometimes building at the edges and essentially fanning the flame there so that, you know, people can see what the transformation looks like without it disrupting everything at the center. Because at the end of the day, you know, people are resistant to change, right? They're not like always active to like disrupt their whole lives in order and the things that they hold dear, whether it's the color of the carpet or the color of the drapes or whether, well, depending on like what kind of instruments are used or not used. And so, you know, if you experiment on the edges, you know, like it gives a taste for what things could be and helps people like, you know, catch a vision that they might not be able to see if it just was like shoved into their faces. Yeah, love that. Well, man, I usually ask people and we're getting toward the end of time, so I want to sort of tee up the question for you. But I ask all my guests the same question. What is it that the church would benefit from thinking about in order to be and make disciples more faithfully that we're not thinking about right now? And so it isn't meant to be a challenge to the church, like, hey, let's critique what the church isn't doing, but maybe just something that what are we really missing? What do we seem to have forgotten about in the whole mess of things that we're doing that we could, if we really honed in on it, we would be and make disciples more faithfully? Yeah, I mean, so much comes to mind. And I think one of the things that even the preface and the way that you set this question up might actually indicate one of the things that we need to do is be willing to actually critique the church for its failures and be okay with that. And know that by critiquing the church, you're not actually hurting God's feelings, but you're actually calling the church to greater faithfulness. Obviously, you don't want to just go around like lighting fires everywhere and like saying, oh, everything's terrible. But, you know, like a part of the Christian journey is repentance and faith. It's faith and repentance. And the only way that you repent is if you see what is deficient or wrong or, you know, unfaithful. And it's so easy because the human condition is so wayward from God for us to drift in a way that's in opposition to God or even a way that distracts everyone else from God. And so that's one piece. I also encourage people like to really look at, you know, what it is that they're so concerned about because change is scary, but what is it that they're really afraid of losing if things change? And are those things that you might lose as a result of the change worth it if you lose the next generation or if you lose representing the kingdom of God here on earth? Like, are the things that you think that you're holding on to truly aligned with the scripture, with the ethics of God's kingdom and so on and so forth? And so, you know, Jake, Kara, and I believe that the best days of our churches are ahead. And we do believe that the best days of the churches of those who are listening are ahead. And we encourage people to courageously step into a change process, you know, because, you know, a lot of people will say if you're not changing, you're dying. And if you're not growing, you know, that growing deeply, especially, that there might be some issues with the soil or the nutrients that are being adapted. And so we encourage people to really engage. And, you know, like there are plenty of stories, even in the book, where churches that were on the verge of maybe extinction or closure, you know, made some decisions to pivot and, you know, they can grow. And so, you know, one of the churches that we find inspiring in Indiana shrunk to about a hundred people, mostly senior adults. They were wondering if they should close down, but decided that it was not too late to be future focused. They followed the principles that we talk about. They focused on young people, loving their neighbors, especially those who are unhoused within their community or that have secure housing to your point about, you know, listening to the community outside of the four walls. They casted vision. They noticed the needs. Then they mobilized multiple teams to make change. And they're now a church of 1500 people, 70% of whom are under the age of 30. And so, you know, there's no guarantee that the pace of change or results, you know, there's no guarantee that the pace of change will be faster, that the results will be exactly as you hope, but you'd never know what God's going to do. And we're so thrilled to be on this journey with you. Well, how do you, how do people get tied in? Are there ways to collaborate with 10 by 10? Yeah. So, I mean, they can go on futurefocuschurch.com, check out the book, you know, Fuller Youth Institute is a great resource to connect with. And so FYI, which is an Institute out of Fuller. And then if they want to connect with us at 10 by 10, they can go online. There's a place to kind of keep up with the emails and then, you know, they can send us an email saying like, tell us your story of how you've changed. If you've adopted some of these principles and even if you didn't know about this intentionally, we just love to know your, you know, what you've done to, to highlight your church if there's opportunities to do so. And so we're always encouraged by the work that God is doing. We don't, we don't always get to hear about all the good work. And so wherever we can, we want to, we want to hear about it. And so connect with us at 10 by 10. Very cool. Well, I'm going to include all those in the show description. So folks, if you're listening and you want to connect with any of those, I would recommend it. I, like I said, I've been familiar with the 10 by 10 for a while now, but it's kind of great to get a little bit of an update on how you guys are doing and what's going on. And I love the book, Future Focus Church. I would highly recommend it. That link will be in the show description as well. And Reyes, thanks for being on. Thanks for sharing what's going on in your ministry and your heart. And really had a great conversation with you. So thanks for being here. Thanks so much, James. Appreciate you. All right, everybody. We will catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care, everyone. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Dear Heavenly Father, thank you for working everything out for my good. Help me trust in your perfect plan. Amen. Father, thank you for loving and caring for me. With Christian Prayer Meditation, you can pray along to prayers based on specific topics. Go to lifeaudio.com or search your favorite podcast app for Christian Prayer Meditation. You can also download the Abide app for biblical meditations at abide.com.