Rediscovering the Bible with The Chosen: A Conversation with Brandon Robbins

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Thanks for joining me today on Thinking Christian. I am here with Brandon Robbins, and he's the author of a book, The Forgotten Teachings of Jesus, and it deals with the series The Chosen. So Brandon is a YouTube content creator. He's an author. He's a pastor. And we're just going to be talking about the book, maybe his YouTube channel a little bit, and a variety of other topics today. So welcome, Brandon. Thanks for being on the show, man. Yeah, thank you so much for having me on, James. Yeah, tell me a little bit about just how you got into, you know, obviously you're pastoring, but where did the YouTube channel come in and your interest in producing that kind of content for folks? Yeah, so I actually started the YouTube channel probably back in 2019, and originally it was just a way to communicate some things to my church. And then eventually I wanted to reach pastors. And for a while just kind of floundered for about two years, just trying to figure out what content I wanted to create and what people were looking for. And then as I was kind of about to give up on YouTube, I did a video on episode one of season one of The Chosen. I'd watched the show and was just really amazed by some of the contextual details they'd included and things that I'd never seen in a biblical production before. And so I just taught people about it, kind of revealed some of those things. And before I knew it, that video just took off. And what I realized is that this passion that I had to really dive into the world of Jesus and know what it was like to live back then and know those details and see how that changed the way I read the Bible, other people were hungry for that too. And so it was just a really great opportunity. It opened the door to begin to teach people about that. And it just has continued to grow and reach new people ever since. You know, as you as you think about The Chosen, the series, I mean, obviously the book is on The Chosen. And so you kind of go through a number of the different episodes in this book. You kind of refer to the episodes, those kind of things. But the YouTube channel came before the book, I'm assuming. So the identification of the topic came before the book. And so what prompted you then to go ahead and write the book? And what contribution are you hoping the book makes to those who are sort of watching The Chosen on on TV? You know, if we call it that anymore, do we call it TV anymore? I'm not sure we do. You can watch it on TV. Right. Yeah. You know, when I wrote or when I created the videos in the first place, it was really to open people's eyes to things that are happening in scripture or things that everybody knew at the time of Jesus that have since then been forgotten. And that's really where the title of the book, The Forgotten Teachings of Jesus, comes from. It's this understanding that there are things that were just a way of life back then, how rabbis functioned, how the world around Jesus looked, the land, all of these different things that everybody knew it. And then over the centuries and over the millennia, people have forgotten it. But once we learn these things, it really truly changes the way we read the Bible and passages that didn't make sense, suddenly make sense. Passages we thought we knew meant one thing, suddenly mean something else because we have this new information and this new understanding. And it's almost as if we're living back then a little bit. And so with the videos, I was able to do that, but only really in about a 20 to 25 minute format. And so when this opportunity came to be able to write a book and to really dive into that even deeper, I just jumped at this exciting opportunity to be able to share these things with people and spread it in a new way, in a way that, you know, for somebody who may never watch YouTube, they could read about it and they could learn about it and they could discuss it with their small groups. And then the more people who know this, just the more people who are diving into the Bible and seeing scripture in a whole new way. Do you, you know, when you think about The Chosen, one of the things that I've at least thought about when I first saw the series coming out and watched some of the episodes, which I've been really impressed with what I've seen. But one of the things I think my knee jerk reaction was to sort of go back to that sort of iconography debate. You know, should we have these images? What does it look like to portray Jesus? I grew up in a Lutheran church. And so, you know, I always had, I call them affectionately glamour shots Jesus up there, you know, with the long flowing brown hair and, you know, the chiseled features. And you just sort of have to, I don't know, as I've gone forward in my theological training, kind of ask yourself, how do representations of Jesus like that, you know, really skew maybe the way we understand who he is. How did you think through that with The Chosen? Did you think through that with The Chosen? Yeah, absolutely. You know, one of the things about trying to depict Jesus and the gospels on screen in any way is that it's always a flawed endeavor, right? It's always going to be imperfect to some degree. And one of the things that we say outright in the very beginning of the book is that The Chosen is not the Bible, far from it. But what The Chosen has done that is beautiful is it has drawn people into the Bible in brand new ways. It has allowed them to connect with the disciples and to connect with Jesus in ways that they just weren't able to before. And I had this opportunity last fall to go to Chosen Con and to be in the midst of this conference with people who were just really passionate about the show. And what I noticed was that it's almost inaccurate to call them fans of the show because it's not about the show for them. It's about how the show has opened the door for them to experience the gospel in ways they never could before. And that's really the point of the book. I mean, I would say that the book, it addresses The Chosen. It goes through each episode. It very much has a focus around The Chosen, but the book isn't about The Chosen. The book is really about helping people to dive into scripture and the show is a launching pad for that. And I think that's a real need because it's always easy when you're watching a show like this or any depiction on screen to just accept this is what the Bible says. But The Chosen admittedly, you know, will say, hey, we changed this. We've altered this. We're going for stories sometimes. And so we try to clarify that. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And then you're finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text guide to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text guide to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Yeah, it's really an interesting balance. I mean, I grew up, I suppose you could say in more academic circles. And so you realize at some point when you're doing biblical studies and theology and you're writing and you're presenting scripture, you know, you're going from the Bible into an explanation of the Bible. You know that you're leaving things on the table. There are certain things you're going to miss and there are certain things you aren't. But I think we've had this sort of, at least historically, we've had a stigma around images, not so much around writing. Now, there have been other problems around writing, you know, heresy and all those kind of fun things that we look at. But there's been this discomfort with images. And I think that The Chosen has navigated those actually really well. And so it's sort of fascinating to hear. And as I read through The Forgotten Teachings of Jesus, I mean, one of the things I really liked that you did was you put in some of these little side panels. So it's got, you know, a stone dating to AD 9 was discovered at Prenia, an ancient Greek city in western Turkey, bearing an inscription that described the birth of Emperor Augustus as euangelion. You know, I mean, this is stuff that N.T. Wright wrote whole books about. This is stuff that, you know, there's a two-volume work, Justification of Variegated Nomism that gets into all this kind of fun stuff, like total geek scholarly stuff. And you've got

I think I've done trips over to Israel, a couple trips over to Israel, and people are always excited to go to Israel, and I've often heard it described, it's like you move from reading your Bible in black and white to reading it in color. But I would say that, and I'm an Old Testament guy, and so when I go over to Israel, a lot of times it's an act of imagination to go from what's left there to what was, would have been there previously. And so it gives you some inkling and idea, right, that you sort of have to reconstruct and try to understand based on these ruins that are left there. The Chosen does something slightly different. It almost reconstructs it for you. It gives you a picture of that where you don't have to have any bit of archaeological knowledge, you don't have to have any bit of, you know, you don't have to be an expert in Second Temple Judaism or whatever. You just get to now see it. And I think for people who are already sort of educated in the space, there's an appreciation for how much detail is actually presented in the show and how well it does. I mean, you said that at the beginning, like all the different cultural elements are so well presented in the show that you are getting sort of an implicit education. You know what I mean? Like, it's that sort of idea. Yeah, I think you absolutely are, you know, so you're getting this glimpse visually into what it looked like to live back then, what it was like to fish in the boat and how they fished and things like that. But the other thing that I think is so easy to overlook sometimes, but the show does so well, is introducing you to the social dynamics of what it was like to live back then. What really were Pharisees like and who were the Sadducees and what is the difference that everybody understood back then but for us can be confusing? Or what was it like to live in the Roman Empire and why is that so significant when we read the Bible? Like when all of those things become clear to us, it really transforms the way we see Scripture. Do you find this to be, you know, because there have been other treatments, let's say, of biblical stories, right? Anything from The Passion of the Christ to Noah, right? And so you've got this wide divergence of, you know, just strict storytelling, almost just using biblical character names and really departing from what I would say is sort of the core theological message of the biblical text to things that try to be as authentic as possible while still allowing people to sort of enter into this story. And so what do you think the secret sauce is, as you've looked at the show, what do you think the secret sauce is there in producing a show that allows people to have this experience and this encounter with Christ that they hadn't been able to have before? Yeah, I mean, I've never had an opportunity to really interview people who created things like Noah or The Passion, but one of the things that I've been able to learn in interacting with people who created The Chosen is that they know that what they're creating is not necessarily what happened, but their goal in the end is, is it plausible? Like based on how people lived back then, is this a likely situation to have happened? And that was, I think what really grabbed me about the show in the first place is that, you know, I don't know who the exact, you know, Praetor was in that particular region in Capernaum at that time, but this person who is fulfilling this role in the show seems very similar to what that Roman official would have been like and the structures that they have of the Roman military and how it all unfolds, you know, you get this glimpse into that. And the same thing with Jesus. Like, we don't know that Jesus ever necessarily sat down and had a conversation with kids like in episode 3 of season 1, but the way he interacts with them and the things that he says, the things that he emphasizes, all of these are conversations that would have been happening back then and the kind of thing you would have emphasized with children. And so what it really does and what I think any of these depictions of Scripture should really, their goal should be, is to drive us back into the Bible to say, okay, I saw it in the show or I saw it in the movie, now let me go see what Scripture really says. And when we fail to do that, I think that's when we really find ourselves in trouble because then we're like, I don't know what, you know, I've heard this story versus I saw this thing on screen versus what Scripture actually says. But when we dive in, now all of a sudden pieces start to click and that's where I think the real power, you talk about kind of the secret sauce. If you can get these glimpses into that world and then you take them with you into Scripture, that's where the transformation happens. That's cool. I like the idea of, you know, plausible to happen. It's not, you know, it's not a make-believe story that you're trying to sort of manipulate the way people see it. What you're trying to present is a real situation using the characters who people would be familiar with in the biblical text in order to illustrate the sort of social interactions that would have been going on at the time. And so you're understanding now why certain, you know, maybe X, Y, or Z happens in the Gospels and what really is going on there. And you don't have to read, you know, a 50-page commentary on it to really deeply get it. Yeah, and this is a great example of that. I just mentioned season 1, episode 3, which is this whole episode of Jesus and Children. And there's this beautiful moment that we talk about in the book where Jesus sits down and he's talking about prayer with the kids and he has them pray and they recite the Shema. And the Shema is a prayer that Jesus himself and every Jewish person would have prayed twice a day, every single day of their lives. It was just this incredibly important prayer. And so in the show, you know, you're seeing that lived out. We don't know that Jesus ever actually sat with kids and prayed the Shema, but we know that kids and Jesus would have prayed it every single day. We know that it was so important to their life and to their understanding of who God was and who they were. And so by seeing it in the show, now all of a sudden we're introduced to it and it gives us this opportunity to explore it more, which then changes the way we see Jesus' greatest commandment, changes the way we understand where that's coming from and why he says that's the greatest of all the commandments. And it just, it opens Scripture up to us in a whole new way. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up, and many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a Gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a Gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. As you've interacted with people on, you know, how they're really seeing Jesus fresh, you know, how they're getting back to the forgotten teachings of Jesus, what have been some of the reactions? Are you finding people want to dig deeper into just the Gospels or are you seeing people want to dig deeper into some of those Old Testament texts? I mean, you reference just in the first couple chapters of your book, Isaiah, you know, the Shema, you know, various other Old Testament texts because they're so informative to what's going on in the Gospels. So how have people responded just from your experience, maybe at ChosenCon or, you know, those kind of places? Yeah, I think there's a couple of different ways that people have really been drawn into Scripture. One of the things that I think is a primary impact is how people connect with the disciples. And so many people will say, you know, when I grew up, I imagined the disciples as these old men who were on pillars and they never did anything wrong. And, you know, I couldn't relate to them. But now all of a sudden you see these things in the show that are in Scripture and this sense of like how flawed they are, how hard of a time they have understanding who Jesus really is. And, you know, as you begin to glimpse that, then that pulls you back into Mark's Gospel or a place where you just see the disciples make mistake after mistake after mistake. And now that that kind of has you connecting with their scriptures in a different way. But then in terms of things like the Old Testament and how the Hebrew Scriptures connect with the New Testament, that is a place where I've really begun to see people digging even more. And so outside of the things I do about the chosen YouTube videos, we have a membership where people can subscribe and we'll dive into Scripture together. And that's one of the things we're constantly doing is referring back to the Old Testament and looking for those moments in Scripture where Jesus or someone else is quoting the Old Testament, but our Bibles don't even really tell us. And so once we begin to kind of notice

sort of arguing that the Old Testament should maybe be left behind, that it's something that people really don't need anymore, just like you were saying, it's old, and so we should be focusing on the new. And I think, you know, as an Old Testament guy, it kind of hurts my heart to hear, but also just as a Christian to sit back and say, no, the Old Testament is also Christian scripture. It's, you know, it was the authoritative text for most of the writers of the, well, for all the writers in the New Testament. And so you see them quoting it, you see them, you know, the explicit quotations are one thing, but I mean, I love that you're digging into some of those allusions where it's gesturing back even to these texts where they're not being referenced, it's just, it's the air they breathe. It is. Yeah, it's fascinating. That's awesome that you're doing that. Yeah, and I think it's also opened people up to things that in our day, we say, well, that's Jewish, right? Like, that's their thing, that's not our thing. So in The Chosen, there's just these constant religious holidays happening, and they're not just holidays, they're these commands in the law that people are to live out. And when we understand what they mean and why they are present and why they're so important in Jesus's life and why for several of them you have to travel to Jerusalem to celebrate them, you know, all of these things begin to make us pause and say, okay, have I just written this off as a Jewish holiday when in fact, this is a biblical holiday and I need to understand it and I need to understand why we would even celebrate it now. And we've gotten to see that in a really special way around Sukkot. So at the church I pastor, you know, we've even, like, talked about tabernacles, and we've set it up, and we've talked about what this whole holiday is about and why we should be still celebrating it and what it meant for them and what it means for us and how Jesus is connected. And so, there's so many doors that it opens up where we realize we were only experiencing a portion of all that God had to offer through Scripture. Fascinating. I don't know about you, but, I mean, I've found as I do Bible studies and just even teaching, you know, in colleges or seminaries or whatever, one of the things that I find is if I can get students to interact with a passage that they aren't familiar with, like, one of my go-tos is Genesis 14. It's the story where Abraham goes and he defeats the kings, rescues Lot, and then refuses to take the money from Sodom. The students kind of have an idea of what it is, but they don't understand why it's there. You know, it seems almost like a throwaway narrative. And so, when I can get people to interact with these weird narratives, right, the ones they're not devotionally tied to, it starts to open that door wider and wider and wider, right? And it sounds to me like that's sort of what's happening with your book, The Forgotten Teachings of Jesus, and where you're highlighting some of these aspects that maybe people wouldn't understand. And using the show to illustrate aspects of them, but really helping them be maybe surprised by some of the things that are going on there that they just weren't privy to before. And so, they can't understand it beyond a certain point because they don't know enough information to understand it any differently. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there are so many things there that also allow us to take even New Testament scriptures that we would gloss over because we're like, I don't understand what in the world Jesus is saying here. And we just kind of ignore them. And now that we understand some of that context, it's like, oh, well, now that can make sense for me. So one of the ones that always comes to mind for me is where Jesus talks about how if you want to follow him, you have to hate your parents and hate your spouse and hate your kids and hate your brother and sister and even hate yourself. And we're like, that just doesn't sound like Jesus until we understand what the word hate meant at the time of Jesus, that love and hate weren't necessarily emotions as much as they were choice. And if you were going to be a disciple of Jesus, it meant you had to choose him over everything. Well, when you understand what it meant to be a disciple where a disciple would literally leave his house, he would leave his job, he would leave his parents, he would leave his family and go follow that rabbi wherever that rabbi went, whatever that rabbi did. You understand why Jesus says that, why he's saying that's the level of dedication it takes to be my disciple right now because you're viewing it in the context of the time with the language at the time. And suddenly a scripture that you might write off as that's just crazy, I don't know what's going on there. Now it suddenly makes sense in a whole new way. Yeah, it begins to open itself up. I think, you know, I could see real benefit to something like the book of Hebrews as well. You know, once you start to understand the gospels have so much to do with the temple and Jewish worship and like you said, the festivals and sacrifices and all those other kind of things, so that now when you're kind of gesturing in or moving into the book of Hebrews, you have a different perspective on what's being said there. You have a different understanding of the types of topics that really the book of Hebrews may be trying to address and how Christ fits into all of that. And so I'm sort of fascinated to hear, you know, as you project forward, you've written the book, you've, you know, you've got the Old Testament stuff that you're doing on your YouTube channel. Do you see this as just sort of flowing forward and addressing some of the other maybe less popular, we could say, books, you know, some of the more obscure works that people tend to stay away from because they just don't understand them. Is that sort of your plan to sort of continue moving through this? I think that's my goal, ultimately, right? Like I would love for this to open the door for people to actually study Leviticus and not just see it as a whole bunch of laws, but to understand the context of those laws and how there's so much richness there that we might otherwise overlook. And that's, you know, really part of the goal of the book and our ministry in general is, is we want to highlight, like I want to highlight these really exciting things that change the way you see the Bible and kind of give you this wow, aha moment. But at the same time, I also want to teach people, what is it that you can look for? Because not everybody is going to be a biblical scholar. Not everybody is going to know so much about Hebrew culture to be able to just pick up on all these little things and understand it all. But there are things we can know, like little strategies we can use when we read the Bible in terms of as you're reading the New Testament, you're just focusing on key words, right? Like, what are these words that really matter? And as you dive into what that word originally meant, you begin to get a bigger picture of, of what it's really saying and why it's being used in that particular moment in scripture. Or maybe how to look for Old Testament references. You know, sometimes it's in quotes or it's parenthetical, but other times it's, it's just there. And maybe there's a little footnote or there's something. So how do you look for that and then begin to explore back? And I think the more that people have those tools, the more comfortable they're going to be actually going back to the Old Testament and studying the scriptures that they've never looked at before. You know, one of the things I've found to help people with that, and in addition to just understanding how their Bibles are laid out, right? Because most of the Bibles will refer you back sort of, hey, this is a reference to X, Y, or Z passage and they'll give you a cross-reference or something like that. But I've found the net Bible. People find the net Bible extremely helpful. The translator's notes in the net Bible, those kind of things. They do tend to drive you back more frequently into the Old Testament and give you a little bit better depth even as you go through that. And so it starts to, I think, what I'm finding and what I really enjoyed as I was reading through your book and thinking about this, this conversation, what it helped me realize was this is really opening up just everyday lay people to tools that have largely been the, in the realm of biblical scholars. You know, most people, I think if I just said, hey, you should use the net Bible. It's got these translator notes and they're really cool. They're, you know, they're looking at me like I'm a huge geek. But I think that a lot of this has made it much more of a popularized idea. And now people are looking at these tools and they have just a more intuitive sense of, oh, I could see how that might help me. And I find that fascinating and, and just really encouraging. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? 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I mean, I think that's great. That's the goal of the kingdom, right? That we are diving into God's Word, that we're hearing what God's saying, and we're obeying it and living it out. Yeah. It's just such a, it's interesting that it comes about through a television show. I'm still, I'll be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about that yet, but I'm happy it's happening, and I'm excited to see how people really, you know, I guess I'd just love it if it happened sort of the way it happened for me. You just sort of start reading through the Bible and fall in love with it and then, you know, go to seminary and learn all this stuff. But obviously that's not going to happen for everybody. And so there have to be these more compelling ways for folks to get into it and dive into it. Maybe let's talk about a few of the forgotten teachings of Jesus. You know, you've referenced sort of the passage where Jesus says, you know, you've got to hate your mother and your father, your brothers, in order to follow me. What other little tidbits might you throw out there? What other forgotten teachings have really been maybe most impactful or stand out most in your mind? Sure. So there's quite a few. I mean, that you're just popping up constantly throughout the show. One of them I referenced a moment ago was where Jesus sits down and they're praying this prayer called the Shema. He and his children together. And the Shema is where, you know, the scripture says, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength. And it's the same scripture Jesus uses when he is giving the greatest commandment. But one of the things that people understood then that is often lost on us now is what each of those words mean. So this idea of love or heart or soul or strength. You know, so love is this Hebrew word ahava, which it's this love that is an action, right? Love is not just a feeling or an emotion, but it is expressed through the things that we do. And so much of Hebrew thought is not just about feelings, but actions. And then this idea of your heart, well, the heart was the center of your thoughts. It wasn't where your feelings lived, but your thoughts and your nefesh, which is the word for soul, represents not some spirit that lives in you, but your entire life, everything about who you are. And then the last word there that's translated strength is this word mehod, which means literally all of your very, this idea of every ounce of energy you've got, all of your oomph. And so when you're understanding those teachings, when you're armed with that information, all of a sudden you can understand Jesus's greatest commandment and this prayer that people are praying every single day entirely differently. And so Jesus isn't just saying you need to really, really, really feel a lot of love for God. He's saying this is what our love for God looks like. It is a love that is driven by our actions. It is a love that is a love for God that exists in every thought that goes through our minds and every aspect of our entire lives. It's a love that we express with every ounce of energy we've got. This is what it looks like to love the Lord. And when you really begin to meditate on that and understand what that means, you now see why Jesus says that is the greatest of all the commandments. And you understand what he's calling us to do and how he's calling us to live in a way that was natural and understood back then, but it's new to us, right? It's something, it's been forgotten. I love that. I love that mehod is the word for strength in the Shema. I mean, when I explain that to people and I say, this is the very, a very good in creation, you know, and so it's like, well, what does that even mean? And I usually describe it as umph or muchness. And so I'm really happy that you use those terms. It's affirming. But I think, yeah, it's such a fascinating way that once we start to understand it from the biblical perspective, not just what the Bible says, but the people who are writing the Bible, who had these things originally presented to them, had conceptual pictures in their heads. They understood these things in a way that we just won't unless we get back to that point. And so I think that's actually a really fantastic example. And, you know, when you think about how I've often done the love of neighbor piece of this, and one of the things that I think is fascinating is, you know, when Jesus tells the parable of the Good Samaritan, one of the things I've sort of had this itch in my brain that I think the teacher of the law is actually asking Jesus is in Leviticus 19, you have two ascriptions to love your neighbor as yourself. One is your Israelite brother. One is the sojourner who sojourns among you. And I really think he may be asking for a clarification of what does that mean? Are you talking about just loving my Israelite brother? Or do I also have to love this random people around me? You know, we're surrounded by Gentiles. Do I have to love all of them as I love myself? So who is my neighbor? And, you know, linking that back to Leviticus 19 gives you a whole different picture of what Jesus is actually, could give you a different picture of what that guy, what he's explaining to that gentleman. Yeah, absolutely. And it opens up this kind of like rabbit hole that you can really dive down of just all the connections that are happening here. Because now you're exploring really what it means to love your neighbor. But at the same time, you know, Jesus puts those two together when he gives the greatest commandment, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. And he's using this practice of Gizar Shavah where the two speak to each other and they inform each other. And so Jesus is telling us you can't truly love God unless you love your neighbor and you can't truly love your neighbor unless you love the Lord. Like the two are connected. And that's just the beauty of it. Like the richness is there's so much more you can explore. And what was just a verse that you would read now becomes this whole just tapestry that you can just go all over and explore and just learn all of these new things as you just dive down these rabbit holes and learn these new things about the Old Testament and connect with scripture you've never seen before. Well, for folks who might be diving into The Chosen, right, for the first time, if, I mean, I haven't watched all the seasons, so I'm assuming there are other people who haven't watched all the seasons too. Maybe I'm the only one left. But how would you recommend people to approach it? I mean, obviously, I think your book is a great resource for this and emphasizing, as you do in the beginning, that The Chosen is not the Bible and the way that The Chosen emphasizes this is not the Bible. But I think there's also still this sort of question of, is there a good way to go through these episodes and understand, you know, how do I now engage the scriptures having watched the show? Any practical tips for folks as they may be doing that? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the best way to approach a show like this is to have the remote in one hand and your Bible in the other, right? So just to always be ready to look at scripture and see what out of what you just watched was real and what wasn't. And then I think the other really good thing is to find those tools that help you to better understand what's really happening in the episode and what they're depicting and why. So, I mean, The Chosen has their own resources where they put out Bible studies and they help you to connect to the scriptures that are being presented in that episode. The book that I've written, The Forgotten Teachings of Jesus, is very much intended to be that kind of tool where you're understanding why this person is present and what they really represent and why that matters. But I think that's really at the heart of it. So to enjoy it as a television show for what it is, because it's a really well done television show. Then also to be ready to know it's not scripture. So we've got to have that there with us and be ready to reference it. And I think it really changes as the seasons progress. So season one is very foundational for the show. They're introducing characters and they go through a couple of key moments. You know, they have the calling of Peter. They have the moment where there's the wedding at Cana. They have the leper who's healed and the man who's dropped through the roof. So all of these are happening and you can go to those specific scriptures and look at what happened in the show and then what happened actually in scripture. But that's a little bit more limited in season one. As you get into the later seasons, especially seasons four, five, six and seven, where almost every episode is something that happened in scripture. You know, just strictly what's going on in scripture. And that's where I think it becomes even more important because, for instance, in season three, they have the feeding of the five thousand. But what's never referenced in there that that's just one of two feedings that Jesus did. He also fed the four thousand and they're in different places and they're to different groups. And that's where it's really important to go back and dive in and be like, what's really happening in scripture versus what I just saw in the show? Yeah, interesting. How is? So you've got the book. You've been you've been seeing people sort of gravitate into a deeper study of the Bible. All of this sort

To say, okay, here's something we can watch together and we can explore together, and we can really understand Scripture in a new way and be transformed by that. And that might actually be one of the other things I would add, that if somebody is watching this show, to really prepare yourself, be with other people, watch it alongside others, let God kind of filter you through one another, because that has really been transformative. I mean, we've done small groups around it. Each year, we deal with a different season at the church I pastor. And it's just really allowed people to engage with Scripture in a new way. And I love that as a pastor. But then the other thing I think it's specifically done in my life and in my preaching is it's opened the door for me to talk about things that in the past people might have thought, well, why would anybody want to hear that? You know, nobody wants the pastor who just gets up and exegetes a bunch of, you know, Greek words and high theological stuff that nobody understands. But now, as that stuff becomes more normative, as people become more eager to know what was the world of Jesus really like, we can dive into that context and preach about Scriptures in ways we haven't been able to do in the past, or maybe never thought to do in the past. But now we know there's a hunger for that. It's sort of fascinating. I mean, I've sort of read a lot of the Marshall McLuhan, you know, the media ecologist kind of folks, Marshall McLuhan, Neil Postman, Jacques Ellul, those kind of folks. And they are, we could say, relatively down. I think Jacques Ellul is probably the most pessimistic down on technology, right? I mean, Marshall McLuhan talks about the media, the medium is the message. And, you know, you know, so the, the medium is the atomic bomb and the content is the silkscreened, you know, paint on the atomic bomb. Like he sees them as that significant. And as I look back on what they've written, I find a lot of helpful insight and wisdom. But I think that as you, as you look at what The Chosen has done, what it's opening the door to, I think there's also a balance we need to find between the media and the higher or the different forms of media. So we could call, like, the visual, audio-visual media and the textual media, because what, what this seems to be doing is it seems to be allowing people to see the value that they could get through deeper study. They're seeing a glimpse of that, and they're understanding, oh, okay, this is where I could actually get where I could actually go. They're understanding how that depth actually helps them understand Christ more and then producing a willingness to go back into what we might call analog tools. Right. Yeah. And really dig deeper into it. And so I think that it, you know, one of the things I got out of reading your book just from that perspective was to sit back and say, okay, there's a time to be pessimistic about technology. There's a time to question whether or not this is forming us in ways we don't want it to form us. But then there's also a time to sit back and just watch what God does with these things and how he can create a renaissance of, of deeper biblical study through something that many theorists would say, that'll never work. This will be a distraction. This will be a whatever. And so I think that sort of been my takeaway. And like I said, reading your book and thinking about these issues that I prepared for the podcast is to sort of sit back and say, so it's helpful for me to understand how it works in your church, that you're using it in small group, that you're seeing people respond more to what we might've classed before as sort of geek speak, right? You know, using that headier stuff. It's a really fascinating dynamic. I don't know that anyone would have, could have predicted it, but I'm really glad it's happening. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that the movement of the spirit here is something that it's just so, so obvious to me. And it's not even just with the show. I feel like the show is this thing that gets a lot of attention and it's kind of the highlight that everybody notices, but it's all over the place. I mean, you know, the YouTube channel that I have is not about the chosen. It's very much about teaching people about the world of Jesus and the people we've reached through that channel. You know, it's because that hunger exists. And now there's this door that's open and the spirit's moving. So I think with any of this stuff, we always have to remember that the medium is not the end, right? It's just a tool. And as long as we can keep that perspective, it can be a really healthy tool. You know, if somebody was ever to say, The Chosen's the end. Like if we see The Chosen, then we know the gospel. Okay, well, we missed it, right? But in the same way as, you know, people have different feelings about revivals and, you know, gatherings like that and the revival itself is not the goal. The revival is just the spark that then hopefully you're getting somebody connected in a local church so they can truly grow. We don't wanna view these things in isolation. And I think the same thing is true with The Chosen. It's an amazing tool as long as it leads somebody somewhere else. And so, like, when you interact with other pastors, with other speakers, teachers, that kind of thing, do they share your perspective on these things or do you get a mix of, you know, leeriness, like sort of, we don't want to deal with The Chosen, we don't wanna look at this. We just want people to, you know, sort of, I guess, dig in on their own without this external impetus. Or do you see people more lackadaisical, just almost that, yeah, we know The Chosen is not the gospel, but just go watch it. You know, that kind of feel. What's a, what maybe the best question is, what's a faithful approach to this? How would you counsel other pastors and leaders in churches to sort of sit back and say, okay, if people's interest in this is being piqued by The Chosen, what's their next step in your mind? Yeah, I mean, so I've seen pastors all over the place. I mean, I have friends who, they know what I do. They know how connected I am to the show, and they've still never watched it. You know, they're pastors. So I would say that the faithful way to approach it is to do it with your congregation, you know? So watch it as a pastor and review it and vet it as you need to so you know what you're gonna be discussing with your congregation. But then if there's an opportunity for this to open the door for people to dive deeper into Scripture and to really understand the gospel in a new way, then do it with it. Right, walk alongside them and guide them through that and be part of that conversation with them so that when any of those dangerous things might pop up, you're there as their pastor and you've got them together in community. Yeah, that's great. Any other, I usually close these episodes out just asking because we're getting close to time. But I usually close them out and ask, is there anything that we're not thinking about as a church that would help us be and make disciples more faithfully just from your experience and your viewpoint? What are we missing that we shouldn't be? Yeah, you know, one of the things that I think has become so important to me as I've gotten older, as I've pastored and just really explored Scripture and understood the world of Jesus better is how important community is. And I know I've mentioned it a few times throughout just our conversation here, but it really, I mean, it is absolutely essential. And when I look at the gospels, I realize that Jesus is never talking about his disciples going off and do this on their own. And it's never just me and Jesus. It's always about their relationship with one another and being together in community as they do these things. And that's just such a Jewish mindset of this isn't a individualist society. It's a collectivist society. It's how we are all connected together and what happens to one of us impacts all of us. And I think when we begin to view Scripture that way, when we begin to view our faith that way, and as pastors, when we begin to lead our congregations that way, we really will begin to see some transformation in people's lives. And we see this all the time in the congregation I pastor. I mean, we were just talking recently about how it's been five years since COVID happened and our congregation, you know, didn't

relationships with each other. And the more that we get focused on that as a church, the more we're going to see the kingdom just begin to explode. I love that. Yeah, I'm an old personal trainer. People who watch or listen to the podcast, they know this about me. But I, you know, my first job was as a personal fitness trainer. And so I always gravitated toward the body metaphors in Paul. If you look at those body metaphors, what what we're really seeing is an organic union of the members of that body. And there's a deep coordination that we need to be striving for as members of the church, where we are working together and really have this sort of deep connection with one another. So I love the answer, totally resonate and really appreciate everything you're doing, man. I love that I appreciate you sort of redeeming and helping me reorient my thoughts on The Chosen. I did not think about the show much at all, but when we scheduled the interview, I, you know, I got the chance to kind of dig in a little bit differently. And between that and your book, I think I'm walking away with a little bit different perspective on these things. And so I very much appreciate it. I'd encourage folks to go get the forgotten teachings of Jesus, a great book. And I think it will help you grow in your faith. And so Brandon, thanks for being here, man. Really appreciate you being here. And any, any kind of closing thoughts, where can people find you? Sure. So they can find me on YouTube. Just type in Brandon Robbins and the videos will will pop up. But we also have a website, BrandonRobbinsMinistry.com where we have different courses and Bible studies that we have produced as well as just some free resources to help people dive into the Bible. And then if you want to pre-order the book, so the book releases on February 4th, but we have some special bonuses for those who pre-order and you just go to BrandonRobbinsMinistry.com slash book and you can get those there. Okay. And we'll, I'll link all those in the show description. So you all, if you're listening to this, just go to the show description. You'll find all those links and you can connect with Brandon if you'd like to hear more. And as always, thanks for joining us on The Thinking Christian podcast. Brandon, thanks so much for being here and we'll catch everybody on the next episode. Take care, everyone. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on The Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to LifeAudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. What do you do when the world around you is falling apart? It's amazing to me how many people are breathing air. They're going about their business and doing the things you're supposed to do. But if you really ask them, they know that on the inside, they are spiritually and emotionally and relationally dead. If we're not careful, all of us can experience that death. When what we need to do, even as the world around us is falling apart, we need to learn how to march when it would be easier to stay where we are and die. Join me each week on The March or Die Show as we discuss that and so much more.