David and Brandon Lindell | Lionhearted Manhood: Leading with Strength, Submitting with Heart

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Before we start today's episode, I want to take a moment to tell you about usefultogod.com. From online courses to free downloadable study guides, I'm confident you'll find something to help you live faithfully in today's world. You can also check out some of my books, including Christian Resistance, Serpents and Doves, and my most recent contribution, the D.L. Moody Essentials collection. Coming this fall, we're also running a German Reformation tour. The tour runs from October 30th through November 9th, and we'll be visiting sites from Berlin to Munich. The booking deadline for the tour is May 31st, and spots are filling up fast. If you're interested in learning more about the Reformation, World War II, and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, you can check out the tour at the link in today's show notes. As always, if you find this podcast valuable, take a second to like, share, and leave a positive review. It really does make a difference. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to our YouTube channel for even more content to equip and encourage you. Now, let's get into today's episode. Hey, everybody, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm James Spencer, and I'm joined today by David and Brandon Lindell. And they are pastors at James River Church in Springfield, Missouri. And they've recently written a book called Lionhearted. And so we're going to be talking a little bit about the content of that book. We're going to talk about maybe some of their ministry and some different aspects, how they came up with this. But the book is really on a man's guide to life in today's world. And so, guys, thanks for being here. I really appreciate you being on the show and for writing this book. I think it's definitely something that's needed in today's culture. So I appreciate it and welcome. Well, we're super excited to be on the podcast, James, and excited anytime we get to talk about manhood. We're pumped up about it. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah, it's a huge privilege. Just for the folks who are listening, do a little intro, like David, say your name so they get a sense of who they're listening to. And then Brandon, say your name so they get a chance. Well, I'm David, and excited to be talking manhood and talking about what's happening in culture today. And once again, echoing what Brandon said, thank you, James, for having us on. We're super excited to be here. Yes, and I'm Brandon, and really excited to have this conversation with everybody on the podcast. I think it is a super critical topic, and I can't wait to see where the conversation goes. Well, cool, guys. Why don't I just start out with a general question. What prompted you to write this? I mean, you're saying you're excited to talk about manhood. You're excited to talk about culture. So what was it in your lives and your ministries that really made this sort of a passion and an interest for you? Well, we're both dads. We're both husbands and fathers, pastors, leaders with now, man, years of ministry experience, you know, whether it's like working in the church or like nonprofit side. And what we found as pastors, just consistently, is that the cultural push on men has just become increasingly intense. And you coincide that with the fact that the realities of a lack of like a rite of passage in our culture, that that's getting more play. But the fact is, where are we initiating men? Where are boys becoming men? What are those spaces where men are growing together outside of a church service, which is great. That's awesome. We're thankful for the local church. Obviously, we believe deeply in it. But where men are pushing on one another. And this is complicated, I think, by the fact that men oftentimes can sense something gnawing at the core of their being. They sense something is wrong. They feel like something's wrong with their marriage or wrong in their house or, you know, they're feeling pressures but not knowing how to deal with it and not knowing what to address. And so obviously, there's a lot. There's a lot of podcasts that have come out for men. There's a lot of resources, whether it's like Navy SEALs writing books about, you know, Jocko's writing this book, Extreme Ownership, and guys are gobbling it up, which is great. It's a good book. Or Atomic Habits and James Clear has a lot of great stuff to say. But our feeling was that often the resources out there are addressing symptoms. They're addressing practices and they're giving guys handholds to make it through or to get ahead, but they're not addressing the deeper issue. And the deeper issue is obviously the heart. And men have a heart that is distinctively wired by God. They have a, we would say, a male soul. And so, and not the heart being the epicenter of that. So how do, how do guys understand what's going on at the core of their being when they, most people, even Christians, I think, at least this has been our experience, can't even define what the heart is. So if you can't even define what, how God wired you at the center of who you are, how are you even going to go about addressing what's going on in what you can't define? And so that became a conversation for us over a number of years and specifically looking at the Proverbs, honestly. And, you know, that's a, that's in a lot of ways, a father-son book in the Old Testament. And this relaying of wisdom that surrounds what you read in Proverbs 4.23, which says, above all else, guard your heart. So if that, you know, if everything you do flows out of your heart, which is what the rest of the verse says, then how do we understand the heart? How do we steward the heart? How do we guard the heart? How do you live out of the heart? How do you, you know what? That whole conversation is what the book came out of for us and which was, I think the study was certainly super fun and we got a lot out of it personally. But what we've had since diving in and creating the content are these incredible conversations with guys who are like, okay, this is really, really helpful. Because they're understanding better who God created them to be, how God created them, who God created them to be and how they harness what God has done by the power of the Holy Spirit on the inside of them to live out of that and get unstuck from the areas in their life that have just maybe plagued them for years and years or have submarine their marriage or, and they don't, they don't understand what's going on on the inside. They don't understand what's going on in the center, but now they're getting, from our vantage point, we've produced something that we believe is incredibly helpful for understanding them living out of that engine on the inside. Interesting. So how do you, how do you, when you talk about that, thinking through the pressures that guys feel in our culture, how do you think about perceptions of masculinity within the culture that create their own pressure on males? So I agree with you. I think, you know, Extreme Ownership is a good book. I like Atomic Habits, you know, like those kinds of books have been helpful. And I tend to agree that they are, you know, giving people, like you said, I like the phrase handholds, right? Sort of pull themselves up a little bit, but at the end of the day, they're almost like coping strategies because there isn't a center from which they're moving from, right? And so they're now able to create sort of a different facade or coping mechanism, but there's no substantive character there. And so as I've looked at some of these issues, one of the things I've been just struggling with is thinking through, okay, I, you know, how do you wrestle with these notions of masculinity out there that say men need to be more aggressive? You know, some people would look at me and say, you know, he's large, he has tattoos, he's manly. I don't think either one of those makes me particularly manly, right? Your tattoos are pretty awesome, though. Let's just be honest. Thank you. I appreciate that. I mean, but, you know, I just, those are the kind of, I'm wondering if those are the kind of pressures you're thinking of or whether I'm misconstruing what you're saying by pressures, those cultural pressures. How are you, how would you navigate some of those? Yeah, I don't think you are because that really meets guys where they're at. That's what they're thinking through. What does it mean to be a godly man? And is that, what does that look like to not, because that, you know, culture does throw out the word like toxic masculinity a lot. And you know that because we actually, we actually co-lead a conference called Stronger Men's Conference. And every single year, almost no matter what we do, like there's some like article written about it. That's like, this is the worst of America. This is toxic masculinity, you know? And it's because we'll like, we'll have like a tank drive through or we'll do, we'll do like, you know, I, like, like Chuck Norris will come out, shoot Uzis, you know, like, and cage fights, bull riding or whatever, whatever it is

Sounds bad. Like, I don't want to be that, but they are also wrestling internally with like, okay, what does it mean to be a non-passive man? Because as a man biblically, we're meant to be leaders. Like, and I don't know, I mean, I don't know if you would agree with that or the listeners would agree with that, but I think there's a pretty strong biblical argument for that. And so what does it look like to lead? Because if you're married, if you're married and you want a healthy marriage, then that probably doesn't mean like, hey woman, you do what I say, you know, like. Absolutely. And so I think guys are like, I don't know where to land on this. And especially if they're struggling with an area of in their life that has to do with like typical manhood, they're struggling sexually or they're struggling just in their identity or they're struggling, then they can tend to overcompensate. And I think that because of the extreme conversation, like, you know, either they're like, they get overly, they get overly passive and they're like, well, I don't want to be a toxic man, or they get overly like macho and it's a really aggressive, overly aggressive. And so, I mean, if you look up the definition for toxic masculinity online, like just like a Wikipedia version of it, super deep. But if you look it up, I mean, it will say, okay, this is, this is toxic masculinity. It's, it's somebody that's overly assertive or, you know, they, they're insensitive or they They are overpowering of others. And obviously, biblically, like being insensitive is not what a biblical man should look like, but being assertive isn't wrong. You know, being strong isn't wrong. And so I think as we lean into the conversation and lionhearted, we want to help guys be like, here's kind of the extremes that you might be hearing, but here's what a godly man looks like. And it does start at the core. If you don't build from the inside out, it doesn't matter if you change your workout routine or you cold plunge or whatever you do. And I think those are great. Can I just ask him real quick, do you cold plunge, Jay? I do not cold plunge, yeah. But if you did, it wouldn't make you more manly, although it might help your dopamine levels. I don't know. Yeah, it could. But all that, all that to say, I think, like you're saying on Atomic Habits or the different books we've been talking about, if you, those things can be helpful, but if you don't deal with that core issue, you're going to end up frustrated again in a different way. So like a lot of guys, when they're like facing like midlife or whatever, they like start taking testosterone and doing different things. And that can help. That makes them possibly more aggressive or at times. I know there's ways to do that where you're not, but like they're looking at it as a fix. Like, I don't feel great, not just physically, but emotionally. I don't feel right on the inside. Yeah. I don't feel healthy, but so hopefully this will help. But then it just creates a different type of unhealthiness for them. And that that can obviously put create more problems if the heart's not fixed. So I just think so starting back to that or going back to that extreme thought on on culture, the confusion in culture and the press on that, like, you know, is it doesn't help the narrative for guys, like, honestly, like it just makes them more confused and they're like, so they, they, they're just keep looking. And then as when something runs out or something, they, they try a direction and it doesn't work out. I think they just feel like, I don't know. And it, and I mean, we can talk more about this, but like, it, it is, it is a painful search for guys. I think, I think they're like, man, this is hard. It's hard. Whatever, whatever the definition of a godly man is difficult. And so back to the book, we just want to help them be like, Hey, starts with the heart and it is difficult. So I think that that is some of the most helpful, honestly, I think we believe is some of the most helpful words a guy can hear is yeah, it's hard. You know, like you're not going to get out of this easy. You're not going to get through being a godly man easy, but that difficult road is also very satisfying. Long answer for a short question. No, no, I think it's good. I actually find it really helpful to hear you talk through it. And I think to kind of circle back around to one thing you mentioned, this idea of men should be leaders. I think one of the challenges I've had when I've had that conversation is differing conceptions of leadership. Yeah. What that looks like. I think there's a reason it gets me misconstrued an awful lot. Right. Like, you know, even when you qualify it and you say, well, it doesn't mean you just tell your wife what to do. Right. Because there's, there's this weird conception of leadership out here that it's like, I'm the CEO of the family and you're going to do exactly what I say. That's not it. And so, and so, you know, sometimes even the language we're trying to apply within this becomes problematic because guys hear it and they're seeing all these different sort of weird leadership conceptions out there. And it's like, well, if I'm supposed to be that, that's never going to work here. And so, you know, again, I just appreciate the emphasis of going back and it's like, start with the heart and allow some of this stuff to emerge from there. You'll understand better how it is, what it means to be a biblical leader, to be a man, you know, and lead once your heart's right. Yes. Like once you get that, then this becomes more intuitive. The problem isn't that we, we, you know, maybe you don't understand that you should be a leader. The problem is you don't have the intuition to do it. Yeah. You know, it's really interesting. As you've worked with guys then, and you've sort of seen some of these polar opposites and the polar extremes, I'm wondering, you know, I've dealt with a number of guys. I used to be an academic dean at a college. And so you sort of run the gamut between the machismo guys who are, you know, doing sports and, you know, I don't know, going out in the woods and, you know, living off the land or whatever. And then, you know, the more bookish guys who are smaller and, you know, they're, you know, they've got the big glasses and the whole thing. Right. And so how do you shepherd those two ends of the spectrum so that they both understand that the way they are isn't automatically more or less manly. Yeah. Right. And they're, because I would think that they're coming at that, that sort of stereotypical male perspective from two completely different. Yeah. Maybe areas of harm. Sure. Yeah. There's trauma. There's also a few things. Well, I think, you know, what you hit on in, you know, in the follow-up to Brandon's question on Just that definition of what a leader is. The fact of the matter is we're often reacting to a narrative that is being perpetuated in culture. So we're saying, well, no, you don't, you know, don't misunderstand. I'm not that. And, you know, and so if you play that way, instead of if you, if you're, if your conception of leadership or your conception of what you should be as a husband or a father is built off a reaction to negative press in the culture around you. Well, that's not going to work. And you're also, you know, hitting on, okay, so is a leader this, is it, you know, is it this stereotypical person or this stereotype? And it's, you know what, it's neither. It's the fact of the matter is that leadership looks different contextually. It looks different because of family background. So that for it looks different based on personality. We know that there are some, okay, so if we just took the corporate world for a second, you would say there are some really amazing leaders who lead from more of a, a relaxed posture. And yet they lead, you know, billion, you know, billion dollar companies or whatever. Then there are other leaders and they're super aggressive, you know, like a more of like an Elon Musk and they're going in and they're like, they're just, you never know what's going to happen. And it's, it's, it's total intensity. And yet they're building massive things. And so even, okay, so obviously that scenario, I'm not applying a corporate leadership to the home, but I am saying this, that leadership is not, like good leadership is not like a one size fits all. It's just not. And so I think we get into trouble when we start trying to either reactionary define what leadership looks like in a particular context or we define it based on what we're most comfortable with. So like, and I think this happens, you know, like we've got, you've got prominent voices in culture currently, and they're saying basically they're gathering groups of people around them. I think this is what influencers do by and large. They gather groups of people around them who are most prone to relate to, which this is normal, most prone to relate to their perspective or view. And then they trumpet their perspective or view as the right way, as opposed to, and I think part of what we really wanted to do in the book is say, okay, this is not a,

other son conversation, what kind of man is he cultivating and what are the things that he's going to camp out on and say, this is really important. You get this right in your life. And that the epicenter of that conversation is, of course, going to be the heart. Now, when you go to the heart, you're going to, part of what we're acknowledging acknowledging is that God uniquely wired James and he uniquely wired David and uniquely wired Brandon. And there are principles that are going to fortify your leadership in the context, you know, at the D.L. Moody Center, like, they're going to fortify your leadership when you walk onto a university campus and provide help and counsel. They're going to fortify your leadership and they're going to, they're going to really be the foundational principles that then you launch your leadership off of in your home. Like what, and your home is going to look different than my home, and that's going to be really awesome. As long as Jesus is the center and my paradigm for approaching hard conversations with my wife, Becky, like the conversation may look totally different, but the paradigm and the foundation for the, for the way that we approach the conversation is going to be built off a viewpoint that says, okay, this is what scripture has, has, this is what scripture has brought to the fore on what I'm going to think and how I'm going to process this conversation, how I'm going to relate to my wife, how I'm going to relate to my kids. And now my home is going to look a certain way because of that, but it doesn't mean it's going to look exactly like your home. Jesus is going to be at the center. The Bible is going to be our guide. The Holy Spirit is going to, is going to lead us and direct us. But that may mean that you do things very differently than me and you're still a leader and you're still godly and you're still living focused, fulfilled, and fearless, which is part of the, the push of the book. But I think this whole, like one size fits all, be like me and hey, follow me as I follow Christ, but be like me, that, that is a problem. And if it's reactionary, that gets it even in a trickier situation because now we're just responding to what culture says we shouldn't be. And we're, I think we're walking on eggshells in a way that is totally unhelpful for being what we're supposed to be, which is salt and light and leaders to the, to the world around us. So I, I just think that, you know, I don't know if that's answering your question, but to me, it's like, if you get into a reactionary posture or a one size fits all posture, you're going to run into serious trouble because I don't think that's the, that's the mandate of scripture. Let me ask you a serious question. 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I had a conversation with a gentleman named Danny Adams. He does Christian comedy and different things. And he was describing his comedy team. And he said he doesn't have like a set. He's not like a standup comic. He sort of works the crowd and does the whole thing improv. Right. And so he'll he has the he builds these relationships with people. And then it just the laughter and the comedy just sort of emerges from these interactions. And what you're describing seems very similar that there is a this, you know, your goal is glorifying God in your family. Right. But the way that that comes about is highly relational. Yes. And it has to do with your relationship to yourself and understanding deeply who you are, your identity, your preferences, your particular shortcomings, whatever that may be. But also then how the people around you are going to respond to you. And what's the best way for me to build this person up to draw them up toward Christ to help them conform to his image, not just to respond well to me, but to ultimately respond well to Christ. And so there's almost this improvisational aspect that I hear when you're giving your answer, which is really fascinating. You know, understanding that. And again, it sort of draws back in once you've done the internal work yourself, you're going to be able to improv, you know, and respond within those situations in more faithful ways that will yield, I think, growth opportunities and leadership opportunities within a given context that you're not even imagining. You couldn't you couldn't map those out as if, oh, I know A plus B is always going to equal, you know, whatever. Like they're going to come out in different ways than you'd ever think about. Yeah, I agree. And I would just think on that leadership side of the improv aspect, when you're in a relationship, so like in the home and you brought up this question and I just want to make sure for anybody who's listening that they because I think the question is true, like, OK, so what does leadership look like in my home, whether I'm the guy who wears glasses and into books and I'm small, so or I'm the guy who's like not into any of that. Or you're James, you have massive muscles tatted up and you're into books. Into books. That's right. Right. Whoever you are. But so you you you want to lead in your home. What does that look like? If there is something that needs to be dealt with for it to be right. And I'm not talking about like you feel offended personally by something your wife did or whatever. And so you're like, that's not right. I'm going to make that right. That's not the kind of problem I'm talking about. I'm like, this is the direction I feel like the Lord is leading us as a family. However, you also know for your wife, that's going to be a difficult conversation. And so what happens for guys who want to dominate is they when those difficult conversations come and they know it, they gear up for it in a way that makes them like, well, I'm going to have to overpower her and intimidate her into doing what I want her to do, which doesn't work and creates a very unhealthy environment. But a lot of guys do that because they they don't want to be passive or whatever. But then there's the other aspect of that, that whether you're a big guy or a small guy, whether you like books or you work on muscle cars, you can also be like, well, I don't want to deal with that. Yeah. You know, I don't want to. That's going to be a hard conversation. I don't want to deal with that. I don't want to deal. She's not going to like that. You know, whatever that whatever it is, or that's it's not going to help. You know, it's not going to fix anything. It's not going to make a difference. So what they do is they retreat to their work. They retreat to their garage. They retreat to reading or whatever. And they create an environment where it's like, I'm going this way. You're going that way, which is the definition of not leading. So what we're trying to help guys do is be like, once again, it's about leaning into the discomfort. It's not about whether she likes it or not, and it's not about dominating. It's not about getting your way. It's about helping voice something that you feel from a character standpoint needs to happen. And you're going to say, you're going to pray into it. You're going to ask the Lord for wisdom. You're going to come with gentleness. You're going to come with thoughtfulness. You're going to come and say, hey, this is a and you're also going to be like, I'm not worried necessarily about the outcome of this conversation and that I need to get my way. But once the conversation happens, to your point of improv. Hey, you don't know how that's going to go. If you come into a conversation with your wife and I mean, we're all husbands here, but let's think about this. If you go into your conversation with your wife and you're like, this isn't going to go well. Well, you might just have a self-fulfilling prophecy in that whole thing, you know, because you're going to gear up in the wrong way. But if you come in with your improv mentality and you say, OK, my job is to lead by saying, here's what I think would be best for us as a family, or here's a problem I think we need to solve together. And the outcome may be like, it may be like, ah, she, it didn't go well. Or, you know, or it could go well, who knows? But if it doesn't go well, how are you going to respond then? And I think that for guys, if you want to lead, you want to be lionhearted. You'll really find out the core of what's happening in your heart by wading into the difficulty of whatever that is. And that doesn't have to all be marriage. That can be at work or whatever. But dominating is just another form of insecurity and another form of like, it's not real leading.

What it's all about. I found hard issues in me through this conversation that I realized, like, wow, I'm really angry, or wow, I am not handling this well, or I do need wisdom, or I'm not asking the right questions in this. And that's what leading is. You really just, you actually led then when you had the humility to say, I don't know, that's not passivity. Passivity is avoiding the conversation because you don't want to walk through the pain of not knowing. You know? And so I'm just trying to, like, help any guy out there who is confused and like, yeah, so what does it look like? And it's complicated. Let's be honest. Like, that's why everybody does go to extremes on it. It's because what we're talking about right now is like, it's not necessarily like zingers, you know, but it's like wading into the mess of like, yeah, life's hard, and if you wanna be a godly man, then you have to be willing to wade into it, you know? I actually think that's really important, though, because, again, as I've been sort of thinking about this and studying it, you guys' interview came up at a really interesting time for me, because I've been thinking about these issues a lot. Part of it is my son just went to college, and so I am now in a house with my wife, my two 16-year-old daughters, and our four-year-old daughter, who we just adopted. And as I think about Christian manhood, part of what I'm trying to discern is the characteristics that I wanna cultivate in my son are not that different from the characteristics I wanna cultivate in my daughters. And so, you know, how do we really think about these things in a way that is helpful for us in thinking about them? And so, as I've studied some of that, and I won't go into how I'm thinking about it necessarily, but as I've been studying some of that, you know, I came across Paul's instructions to bondservants in the New Testament. And you just think about that, and then you think about some of the messages we give to men in our society and our culture that you need to be pushing for success, that ambition, you know, when we say ambition isn't a bad thing, that can be taken as two ways. Hey, actually, ambition is not a bad thing, right? You shouldn't have to apologize for being ambitious. But also, ambition is the standard, right? Ambition is what you should be. And so, but when you read those bondservant passages, Paul is really encouraging those bondservants not to break free, not to, you know, influence the broader culture, not to rise through the ranks, but to be subservient to their masters as to the Lord. That's a very different picture of Christian manhood than we often think of. And so I think these distinctions you're making between what does it look like for a man to be passive versus what does it mean for a man to be assertive are almost, you know, sort of contained within those bondservant passages, right? It's not our go-to, like we go to, and I mean, we've done it in this conversation. I do it all the time. Like you go to Ephesians 5, right? We wanna look at the man as husband, or we'll go to, you know, different sorts of passages. But when you look at some of those bondservant passages, it just hit me. I'm like, wow, this just gives a, it almost shaves some of the rough edges off of my conceptions about what it means to be a Christian man. So I don't have any thoughts on that. I super helpful. I think, you know, when it comes to ambition, I kind of always go back to this little phrase from the Apostle Paul where he writes, so we make it our aim to please him. And so, you know, kind of springboarding off that contextualized, you know, improvisational way of looking at leadership, what it looks like for you to please the Lord in the context in which you find yourself. Marriage for us is such a great case study of how this stuff works itself out, but this is just as applicable to the guy who, you know, is in his 50s and is gonna be a lifelong bachelor or the, you know, the dude who's just graduated from college and isn't thinking about marriage yet or whatever, like that or the kid in high school. Like it's just as applicable. It's just that a lot of the press of marriage kind of pushes on these things and it gives you a great space to kind of examine how this works. But the fact is all of us have the same actual target, and the target is we are supposed to make the aim of our life to please the Lord. And so, you know, when we talk about ambition, what it looks like for me to please God in this season of my life, yes, there are things that are applicable to every single one in any season, but I'm talking, we're talking right now in this conversation about the uniquenesses of a particular season, especially for men specifically. And so what you, I think what every listener has to do, what every one of us has to do as a follower of Jesus is to say, what does it look like for me to make the aim of my life in this season to please the Lord and please him through this relationship, this career path, the decision I'm making, the parenting struggles I'm facing. And that's where relationship is so important, because a lot of times we're walking a road that we haven't traveled before. And so you're like, you're even talking about, okay, like got a kid in college, got three at home. Like this is a season that you've never experienced before. You never had a kid in college before. So this is the power. Like, I love this statement. Men become men in the presence of other men. And so you need, like, just like in this season, you need guys who maybe the particulars of their story are different, but they've walked this road before. And so part of what we hit on in the book, and this is not new, this is not uncharted territory, but I think it is forgotten. The power of it's forgotten is that you need a community of men who are in front of you, beside you, and behind you. You need guys who have traveled the road before, who you can be gut level honest with about, you know, what are the pitfalls? What are you walking through? Then you need guys who you're walking through it together and you can be honest. But all of that, the reason those relationships are so critical is they begin to define the target in the season. Because if you don't have that, you define your own target. And you might be right some of the time. You're gonna be wrong a lot of the time because you're, this is the power of community. It shapes our, it shapes the way that we process decisions and that we navigate the territory in front of us. And so for us, part of what we've done, even from the outset of this journey is say, how do we get more intentional about gathering men together, getting men in relationship with other godly men? Because we're not talking about males becoming males in the presence of other males. We're talking about men, godly men, lion-hearted men, men who look like Jesus and wanna look more like Jesus. That doesn't happen on accident. And so if you're navigating that on your own, and this is where men become weird and make stupid decisions and do stupid things if they get outside of wise, godly male community, then they're gonna make, you're gonna make a mess. And so if you're, if you just have a diet of podcasts, but they're, you know, all of your mentors don't know you and aren't in the nuts and bolts of your life, well then that's not gonna work. Those mentors are important, but they can't contextualize. They can't help you process what the target is. How do you make your aim to please the Lord in this season? And that's why we need men around us to help us do that. It's just so critical. So. Yeah. I think really good point. It's having that male community around us. And maybe let me try to paraphrase and maybe pair it back what I'm hearing. Part of it is that there are struggles that males tend to share that females don't share at all. Totally true. And in our society and our culture in the world, just generally, the pressures that men feel are different oftentimes than what women feel. Absolutely. And so we need people who are feeling those same pressures, dealing with those same pressures, maybe have already dealt with those same pressures and gone through those to give us perspective on those very specific things. It's not like we have nothing to learn from the opposite sex. And we, you know, I'm not, like, I'm not hearing you say any of that, but there is something to say, like, I'm not sure I can learn to be a father from someone who hasn't ever been a father. I don't think I could learn how to be, I mean, you have this in professional context, right? I mean, you know, you, you learn to be a pastor from a pastor. You're not gonna go to a fireman to learn to be a pastor. It's not like you couldn't glean some lessons there, but in general, like you kind of want somebody who has that experience. And so it's so much about, I think the, what I'm hearing you say is a lot of this is just about the shared unique pressures that men feel within our society and our culture that we need each other to help walk through that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think for the guys out there who are like, well, I've tried to build that community or I've had guys speak into

and become men when they're around other men. That's not something that can happen in like 15 minutes or like one like coffee appointment or going to work out with somebody just one time. Like that's done in like a planted community. And I think for guys, if they want to learn how to model, they need to get guys in their life that aren't afraid to tell them how it is and aren't afraid to do that on a regular basis and that they're not afraid to receive it. Because otherwise, you know, when they're trying to be a guy and maybe they don't have good role models, then they can take things like, man, because your point on ambition is exactly right. Like I don't want to be an unambitious person. Like, and because that is, that's not good to have no goals for your life and to be like, you know, to be, but then also if you're an ambitious person, but you don't have no framework for how that looks like in a godly context, then you can easily slip into selfish ambition, which means basically like whatever it takes to get there in my life. Yeah, then I'm doing it. And that's what manhood is, you know? And that, like a guy that comes in your life and be like, hey, dude, you're like, you're, you're going to screw all this up. Or, or, you know, what you're doing, you know, might get you ahead, but like, it's not, it's not going to help you in the long run. It's not godly. It's not like this is actually a place where you need to sit and you need to, I had a guy in my life a few years back and he, he worked in like um like a big retail chain. And they, they brought in a general manager who was just, just the hardest boss in the world. He'd come in and, and he'd, he'd be like, you know, this is, you know, the kind of guy who comes in and is like, this is everything is, everything's wrong and like you, we're gonna stay up, we're gonna stay late tonight and we're gonna fix it all. The truth was their store was in complete disarray. So the manager wasn't wrong. And the company had actually brought him in because he could fix things. This guy though was like, I don't know if I can work for this guy like, he's, he's, you know, he's just crazy. And my counsel to him was like, hey, instead, he was going to quit. He was gonna go, I think he was gonna go work at Pepsi or something. And my counsel to him was like, stay. Like, stay with this guy. They brought him in for a reason. Like he's pushing on things that are obvious problems. I know he's a little bit prickly, but I think there's a lot you can learn from this guy. So he and he ended up doing that, staying, and then they ended up making him like a store manager for like a whole another store. But he was able to implement what that guy put in his life. And all that to say, it's sometimes when people appear to be like, they're telling you things you don't want to hear, or they're telling, it's just because they see things that like are gonna, I mean, honestly, if that store goes out of business, that that guy works in, everybody loses their job. So like, so, but for a lot of guys, they don't want to hear that. And so they, they shy away from community. And it keeps them honestly from being a strong godly man because they're intimidated by other strong men. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? 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And that's the only way it works, is to have guys in your life that are like, that are able to tell you, like, hey, like this isn't working for you, you know? And, or I see that in your life and that's going to damage your, your relationship or your, your marriage or whatever that is. And then them being able to sit and go, okay, because some guys, once they get, once you get to know them, you actually know the real who they are, that's when they like uproot and move on and they're like two cities down or they're like only in the job for two years at a time, you know? And it really doesn't work that way. It happens when we have, we can say, hey, I have places that God wants to take me. I'm a person of ambition. I have things I believe God's going to do in my life, but I'm willing to do that in the context, like David's saying, in the community of men, because I want to do that as a godly man. And not just do it as like somebody who's just trying to make it happen. Well, I mean, in anything that I'm doing, anything that I'm trying to accomplish in my life is ultimately subservient to the goal of pleasing the Lord. So, you know, but how is that target going to define? So, yeah. No, that's good. That's what I was going to say. It almost all fits within the pointing to and glorifying the triune God. If I'm going to do that, then some of these other things I want to do may change. I may not be able to aim at that right at this moment. It may come around later, but I can't do it right now because this isn't God honoring in the moment. And so that logic seems to me to be difficult to develop, right? It's, it can be really ambiguous, right? I'm serving the Lord right now. I'm glorifying the Lord right now. So I can't do that. You could see that becoming a real easy excuse, right? Yeah. And that's just yet another reason, I think, to reinforce your point. That's why you need godly men around you to call shenanigans on those moments where you're really just deciding, I want to do whatever I feel like doing. And so I'm just going to go, oh, no, I'm glorifying the Lord with this one, you know, and deciding to go your own way. Well, and that's one of the things that we wrote heavily on in the book is the capacity of the heart, even the new heart, the capacity for self-deception because, man, and we've, we've cloaked that in all sorts of language, even in the church, like to allow us to do what we want. You know, like, well, you don't know my heart. It's like, well, I'm pretty sure I do because I see your actions. So, but like we, we have allowed that to be cloaked in spiritual language that if anybody pushes on you, you just retreat back to, well, you don't know me. Like only God knows my heart as if somehow that's the spirit. That's like the spiritual litmus test for do whatever you want. Like, oh, this must be right because God knows their heart. Like that doesn't, that doesn't work. And so I think pushing back on, you know, I think it was Charles Bridges who said, if you don't know your heart, you don't know anything. And I think a lot of guys, the reason they keep stubbing their toes and making dumb decisions and, and ending up in places in their life where they're like, man, why am I here? And why do I feel this way? It's because they really don't know what's happening on the inside of them. And so, and I think community is part of figuring that out. I think obviously uh mining the word of God is part of figuring that out. And we've just tried to create like um a resource that will help them understand what's going on on the inside so that then all of these, these tentacles that we're talking about in this conversation can be addressed because they ultimately flow out of the same place. That's right. So anyway, I think just for the guy who's going, okay, that's good. That's good. That's good. You're like, okay, just start with the heart. Yeah. And, and yes, you need community because you can't really be honestly addressing the heart without that. But all of the other things that you might be wondering about and you know, the tentacles to this conversation that you're like, how do I figure that out? Just start, start, start at the epicenter and then work out from there. So, and when you say that, I mean, you know, obviously Bible reading, community, we've already talked about what sort of reflective practices do you um think about when you talk about, you know, getting in and, and understanding the heart? What's the role of things like even something like Christian counseling or counseling in general to helping men do that? Like, where do you all sort of plug those into this, this dynamic that you're, you're painting out, starting with the heart, really having a guy understand his heart? How do

to be like outplaying symptoms, but you're not going to really know why you're doing those things. And counseling can help you be like, OK, here's a soundboard for me that's a safe place where I'm not going to burn a bunch of bridges and I'm going to just like upchuck on this person because I, you know, either if that can be hopefully, if you don't have like finances for that, like you can find somebody in your world who's like, there are people who do volunteer counseling and things, but it'd be worth guys' time to do that if they need it. I couldn't really encourage the guys enough who are listening to this and being like, I know, like I know this has changed, so it's not, but there's still a subset of guys that are like, yeah, I don't need that. Like it sounds so emotional, you know, it's like, I don't need to like get in touch with my feelings. That's lame. You know, it's not, you're not getting in touch with your feelings. You're literally finding out what's going on in your own head and your own heart. And that's very manly. All right, because you're going to confront those things. So, but you can't know what to confront, so you're attacking all kinds of stuff, but get counseling for sure. Get it with somebody who loves the Lord. I think there's a big difference between somebody who has a theological framework, somebody who understands how to do life in a godly way, and somebody who's just like, you know, doing therapy. And I know there's a place for it. I'm not saying that both aren't good at different times, but if you're going to get like guidance and counseling, then you're going to need somebody who has that framework. But what it does in short is it gets out what's on the inside, helps you know your heart, like David's saying, and then you can address those issues. And I would hope, I would think every single guy at some point in their life should do that in order to be as strong and as healthy and as effective as a guy that they need to be. Yeah, and I would say also, like, just the practice of going to church with your family. Yeah, this is super underrated, but you need the church. You need the body of Christ. And if you're detached from the body of Christ, hoping to live a healthy, godly, God-honoring existence, it's not going to happen. It's just not going to happen. You're not going to be able to do that. You have to have the local church. I actually think this is why there's incredible value. It's why we do the Stronger men's conference, one of the largest men's conferences in America. But there's something about standing in a room, like in an arena, with thousands of men who are all lifting up the name of Jesus. That does something at the core of your being. And so all of those are really, these are all alignment practices. Like, I'm bringing myself under the authority of God's word. I'm bringing myself in. I want to submit to his will. I want guys around me who are going to push on areas where I'm not. I want to be in environments where I'm getting a diet, because you need a diet that sustains you to do this. I want to be in environments that are causing me to go, wow, look at all these guys who are pursuing Jesus. That encourages you, invigorates you, inspires you. All of that is good. So it's like, it's like this. It's honestly kind of a buffet line of things that you need in your life. And when buffet sounds like some things are optional, actually, I think all of these are essential. Everybody probably needs to get counseling at some point in their life on some issue. If you got married and you didn't get premarital counseling, then you need counseling now. Like, both of us have done counseling at different times. And we'll do it again. Like, it's incredibly valuable, but it's not just a, it's all of these things that help us get into alignment with our purpose. I think that's what I like about what you're saying. It's all aimed toward one thing, right? Pleasing the Lord. And then all these other things can be, and I'm with you, it's not a buffet line, but they can address certain obstacles that maybe other actions couldn't. I mean, I remember, you know, you talked about testosterone, you know, taking testosterone, right? And I went to the doctor probably, I don't know, nine months ago and I was having all this like sort of joint pain and I was tired and I was depressed. Turned out I had a, what is it? A vitamin D deficiency, I think it was. And so it's like, they put me on high dose vitamin D and all of a sudden I'm not, like my mental state just clears up. I don't feel pain as much anymore. And it's like surprising the change that not having constant pain has on your mentality. No matter how much you're fighting it, like you, like, you know, you're just like, no, I can't act this way. I know I'm in pain. I got to reorient my behavior. That's exhausting. And so I think there, you know, all of these things, they can treat a symptom, right? But if you're not oriented toward the right thing, treating that system is really just an isolated event that's going to allow you to exhibit bad behavior and move in the wrong direction. You know, in some other way. So you got to get that alignment right, which is what you all are saying is start with the heart. If the heart's aligned, all these other things now become really good options for you to exercise and will actually help you towards your aim of pleasing Christ. Because ibuprofen can help you with joint pain, but it's better to take vitamin D and kind of fix multiple things that's in your body needs in this mask. And that's for sure for guys, a lot of the the ibuprofen, as it were for them can be, you know, just excessive alcohol or, you know, porn or whatever they're doing. Right. Those are in the long run, like, I mean, not to overplay the ibuprofen analogy, but it can destroy your liver or your kidneys, you know, it's like, it's like, yeah, those things will destroy your life if you don't deal with the problem and find ways to get that diagnosed in your life by people around you going to church, you know, counseling, whatever that is. The buffet line that is now mandatory. Yeah. The mandatory family, the 18 course buffet line that you have to eat everything. That sounds delicious, right? Yeah. Well, guys, as we're getting close to the end here, I just want to give you kind of the last word. I mean, I obviously think that a lot of this stuff is really crucial and important for men. I guess my question is, as we look at it, as you've looked at it and you look at it for men, how much of this carries over to Christians in general, male or female? And what do you really see as the difference that is pressing in on men that really needs to be addressed in the church today? Yeah. Well, obviously, the Proverbs wasn't written to just men. And the book largely centers on teaching from the book of Proverbs. However, the fact of the matter is there are, as we started this conversation with, there are unique and persistent pressures. And the conversation really right now culturally, at least in the West and particularly in the United States, is about what does, what should manhood look like? And what are, what's bad? What are, what are we going to celebrate? What are we going to, what are we going to pillory? And I think that creates, it can be, there could be some clarifying stuff that comes out of that conversation. But what I think it creates, and what we're in part addressing in the book, is it can create some confusion around like, okay, who am I supposed to be? And so, yes, the nucleus of the book, because it comes out of the word of God, is applicable to men and women. But the fact of the matter is, we're recognizing that there is a conversation happening. And there is a lot of resource being created. So we're adding our voice to something because our concern is that in this conversation, like we've said, Jordan Peterson, 12 rules for life. That's great. Read it. Awesome. Like, you know, jump on some podcasts. They may address some symptoms. They may, it's good to have godly habits. It's good to have habits that are healthy. Like that's awesome. But our concern is that you could, you could lose. You could win the battle and you could lose the war because a habit is not going to fix your life. Just hate to break it to you. It can, it will help. And, and ownership is not going to fix your life. Like, and a list of rules, they're not going to fix your life. Like, but if you, if you get your heart right, it'll change everything else. Everything. I mean, and I think I'm, this is not selling you anything. If you get your heart right, everything else changes. It's the one thing that changes everything. And so that I think for us is why this is such a pressing issue. You, if you don't get it right, well, then it'll mess up everything else. So that's, I think that in a nutshell is why we wrote the book. Yeah. And I just say like, it's a, it's a difficult road, but it's worth it. You know, and I think leaning into who God's called you to be and what's going on on the inside of you, and then lining that up and creating the systems in your life that facilitate health will ultimately lead you to

like I can take a pill and it'd be over. It's something that, that God's calling you as that's why we called it Lionhearted because it takes kind of that sort of tenacity to say, you know, I'm not gonna go into the stereotypical version of whatever anybody else wants me to be. I'm gonna be who God's called me to be. And that's ultimately the most satisfying place. Well, guys, I love the approach. I love the emphasis. I think you're, you're right on and just highly recommend the book to folks who are listening. It comes out. It's out available at Baker Books. Am I correct about that? Yeah, Amazon, Amazon, anywhere you buy your books. And so I'll include a link to the book in the show description. I'm also going to include a link to the, uh, James river church so they can find out a little bit more about you guys. Is there a link to the men's conference you referenced that I could put in there as well? Stronger men.org. Yep. Stronger men.org. So I just encourage anybody who's out there, check this stuff out. The book is fantastic. I think you've heard enough today to realize what you're getting into if you read it. And I think it's the right thing to get into despite the fact that it's going to be a long, hard, arduous journey. As Brandon has said repeatedly. This is going to be difficult. The book is more fun to read than it is to do what we're telling you to do, but it's worth it. I'm sure. Yeah. Well, guys, thanks for being here. I really appreciate it. Appreciate the message. Appreciate your heart. And I hope a lot of guys out there are going to get this book and maybe even wives get this book for them and really help them start journeying and figuring out what's inside. So thanks for being here. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. Take care, everybody. If you go to LifeAudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Praying Christian Women, the podcast that brings Christian women together to talk about the deep questions about prayer that we're all thinking, but sometimes afraid to ask. Hi, I'm Jamie Hampton, and my podcast partner Alana Terry and I would absolutely love for you to join us as we discuss what it means to be a woman of prayer in the 21st century. This podcast will be your go to for biblical encouragement, inspiration, and practical tips to equip you with the tools you need to live out a more passionate, powerful prayer life. Tune in now at LifeAudio.com or your favorite podcasting app.