Theology, Religion, and 'The Office': A Conversation with Dan Cameron

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Dr. Daniel J. Cameron. Daniel is the editor of a new book that's coming out. It's called The Theology, Religion, and the Office, Beauty in Ordinary Things. Full disclosure, I contributed a chapter to the book, and so we connected that way. He is also the department head and director for spiritual life at Chicago Hope Academy. And so, Dan, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here, man. Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me. And thanks for contributing. It's a good chapter. Absolutely. I saw it was on The Office, and I, you know, like we were talking about a little bit before we started recording, I kind of fell in love with The Office, too. And so when I was looking at the project and the call for papers, I mentioned to my wife, I said, what do you think? I'm like, do I really have time to do one more thing? And she's like, yeah, you'll love this. Just go ahead and do it. So I got not only divine prompting, but wife's permission to take on another project, which is important. That's when you know you have to do it. That's right. That's right. So, man, talk a little bit about, like, what drew you to this project? What was what's been your evolution over time? I mean, theology, religion, and the office. Obviously, The Office is not a religious show. It's not a it's not expressing a theology of religion. But I think there, you know, as I dug into it, you do catch these certain, as you were saying before in the interview, these glimmers. And so talk a little bit about your journey to get you to this point where you decided to propose this book at this time. Yeah, that's a great question. So, like you said, we had been talking a little bit about just that in these forms of media that are secular, right, that they're not intending to be Christian in any way or even necessarily express a theology of religion, that I think because of general revelation, because of God's revelation of himself in all of creation, that it's hard to see these things and not if you have, right, if you have spiritual sight, it's hard not to see some of these glimmers or these shadows of theological themes in them. And I think one of the things that drew me to The Office, besides, of course, its comedic value, is just the raw humanity of the show that you watch it. And it's there's no hiding that the ugliness and the beauty of people is on full display in this show. And I think that we can kind of all find ourselves in some space of relating to these characters in different ways. But then as you watch it more deeply, right, when you conclude the show, the last line of the show is from Pam. And I have a I have the quote hanging up. She says at the end when she's talking about the documentary, right, the documentary of a paper company. That sounds boring as heck. You know, it's not like it's not Shark Week or something. Right. It's a paper company. And so Pam says at the end, it's the last, very last line of the show. She says, there's a lot of beauty in ordinary things. Isn't that kind of the point? And it just struck me the more and more I watched it, you know, my six, seven, eight, ninth, I don't know, 10th time through the series. It was easier before it got taken off Netflix. But as I as I continued to hear her say that and that idea of beauty in the ordinary things, I was like, she's so right that as we look at this, you know, as we think about God, even we can be kind of like Elijah where we're expecting God in the mountaintops, God in the earthquakes and the fires and God is speaking in such simple ways to us. And I think that's why we miss it is because we have such different expectations. And so that's why, and you'll see even in my concluding chapter of the book, I open with that line of, you might think that theology in the office or that the office is a weird topic for a theology book, but all in all, I think it's a great topic for a theology book because isn't there a lot of beauty in or a lot of theology in ordinary things? And so that's what this volume really seeks to do is to draw out some of the theology from the mundane. It kind of reminds me of The Liturgy of the Ordinary. Why am I spacing on the author? Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up and many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. James, to Sharon Morris, to Warren Harris. I read that book too, and she just begins to talk about the basic things of life and how that can be liturgical in our helping in our relationship with God. And so that's my hope is to be able to draw out some of those things through these chapters to help people to begin to think more deeply about God through something that can be seen as somewhat parabolic in nature. So that's kind of my heart is to view The Office parabolically to help us to deepen our understanding of God through the ordinary. You know, you mentioned you taught a course on film and theology or film religion. And a lot of times when I, at least in popular preaching, I'll say it like this, whenever I usually hear sermons about film, they are fairly polemical. They're sort of this film is going to teach you bad things. Don't watch it. And I think there's a certain amount of that that's reasonable, right? But at the same time, I wonder if we're not just missing out on something like sort of Acts 17 in this whole mess, right? Where people are religious and they're very religious in every way. And so they're gesturing towards something that they're seeing. They're gesturing toward the good in the world. They're gesturing toward this, you know, even like you'd mentioned Harry Potter before we started, gesturing towards something that that's sort of like self-sacrifice, right? That would lend itself to a gospel presentation, right? It still needs more. It's not that, you know, I think, you know, any of these movies or any of these shows really conveys the gospel in a full-throated manner. But I think that oftentimes in Christian culture, we've been a little too quick to dismiss and to point out the flaws in some of this. And so I'm wondering if you can just comment on a little bit of that, you know, through your experience teaching things like Star Wars, Harry Potter, which obviously have elements that we would want to correct, but maybe are pointing towards something that we shouldn't dismiss altogether. Yeah, absolutely. So I think for me, it comes down to the reality that God is a speaking God. God is going to speak to us and he's going to get our attention no matter how he has to do that. God spoke through donkeys. God spoke through, right? He spoke through all of the craziest ways throughout the Old and the New Testament. And I think that that's no different, obviously still, you know, in line with Hebrews that he spoke to us through his son, right? As the main place he does that. But God still speaks to us through these things. And in a culture where we are so surrounded by this media, that I think that we have a couple of options when it comes to our engagement with it. We can be disgusted by it, right? We can pull away from it completely. We can isolate ourselves from what's happening around us. Which when I think we do that, we lose... If we do that, if we choose to pull back, then we can expect our voice to not be listened to when we try or we pretend to speak into culture. Or I think kind of similar in lines with like Martin Luther King, who looks at culture, he's distressed by what he sees in culture. And rather than disengaging...

So pulling away, he engages in and speaks to, right? God, God is a God of redemption, right? A God of reconciliation where we come, where he comes into a space that is broken and into a space that is not the way it's supposed to be and helps to redeem that space. And I think that we have a responsibility as Christians to continue the work that he began in redeeming the spaces in which we find ourselves. Obviously, not in the same sense, of course, as Jesus redeems those spaces, but we play a part in the redemption of the world. And I think that the way that we speak into and about media is part of that, right? If we can now engage, as I've seen, right, I teach a class on film and theology where our kids are, or my kids, and this year, it's a lot younger kids, 14, 15, 16 years old, who've never seen Star Wars before. And then I show them Star Wars. They think they're going to hate it. And now all of a sudden, they're drawn in by the story. And then we get to have conversations about the role of accountability and growth, where we were talking about how Han Solo grows as a character because of, in part, due to Chewbacca's accountability of him, you know, calling him out on the things that he's doing and how growth can continue to happen. So from what appears to be lightsabers and laser guns is actually now a conversation about how we can grow as people. And it's a common ground, a touchpoint, an entertaining way in which we can engage in those deeper conversations, ultimately then leaning into and talking about how we can be transformed through the renewing of our minds, right, in Romans 12 and the transformation of the spirit in us. So I think we actually have a responsibility to engage in this. And like you said, there are lines, right? There are some things that are gratuitous for the sake of being gratuitous. And I think that we still, in those cases, have a responsibility to know what's happening and to know, because the reality is that people in our culture are engaging with those things. They're watching those things. And if I want to be able to speak into that space, I can't speak into it from a place of ignorance. And so if we can have that mindset and that focus on redemption and redeeming the space we are in, it'll completely change the way we engage with secular media around us. Well, I find something you said fascinating, you know, Han Solo's maturation in the Star Wars films and Chewbacca's accountability of him. Because I think what it does point to is, and this may be something that is starting to get a little lost as content is churned out, movies, shows, they're churned out in greater number. But it's the character driven aspect of a story, the development of the characters. And I think when I dug into The Office again, with more of an eye toward writing the essay, I was watching the characters much more carefully. Like there's a different level of analysis you jump into. And what I found in The Office was that it has something of a moral center. It really does have a, there's a cohesiveness to it that you could see so many elements just sort of evolving around and staying close to, you know, and you could clearly see characters that were going to be sort of on the fringe of this versus the characters that were at the center of it. And so even looking at a character like Ryan, who I won't explain who exactly Ryan is, but if you think about the distance he creates between himself and the rest of the crew, right, at various points throughout the arc of the show, even though he kind of comes back and is a sympathetic character, he's kind of like a whipped dog and he comes back, you know, they put him in the closet and he's fine over there. He never really is part of that group. And so there are different ways to distinguish these folks. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. From one another, even something as simple as Roy being from the warehouse as opposed to being an office. You know, you have these different aspects of it that are just really interesting. And they keep that moral center in that group of characters together while pushing some of the other characters a little bit further out and away from that group. And having a comparison and a contrast between the way that they act toward one another is actually quite crucial to the show. So all that to say, I think there's just an interesting way that the character driven nature of these shows, actual development of characters, not just throwing them in there, is really crucial. Oh, 100%. And I think it's interesting as someone who's watched through the show more times than I can count, that I hear a lot of people make the accusation that the reason they don't like The Office is the lack of character development. And yeah, and that, of course, it has to be coming from a place of ignorance on their part for not watching more of the show. And I totally get why The Office isn't for everyone. It can be difficult to get through at times, right, because of the rawness of it and maybe what it exposes in us as we watch it. That maybe we've been Ryan kind of where he's he's you see him and you kind of think that he's ostracized by the group and put into a closet. But in reality, he's self-ostracizing himself. Right. Michael wants to be his, I don't know, we don't know what Michael wants to be, but he likes Ryan a lot. And Ryan's the one constantly pushing away. And it's interesting. And I think that the show could have probably developed this more, but it's interesting to think about why. Why is Ryan self-ostracizing? Why is he in one sense, right? Isn't it kind of like all of us where we have this desire to be part of a group, but then once we're in, we kind of self-sabotage because we're afraid of what might happen once we're in the vulnerable space of a community like that. And so there's definitely places where they could develop those things more. But if you pay attention, you're going to see significant character development. You're going to see, right, you're going to see, especially I love how Dwight Dwight and Pam's relationship where they just are butting heads all the time. And then all of a sudden they're the ones who are there for each other. And it's just like the most unlikely relationships that develop. And then even, of course, the episode when Michael leaves and you just realize he's like that annoying uncle that everyone's not quite sure about, but everyone loves. Right. And he is trying his best. Like, I truly believe that. And I love in your chapter where you began to talk about that. The, you know, Dunder Mifflin's in the paper, in the people business, not the paper business. And I think that's just to see them bring, as we're talking about character development, to see them bring the characters and the people to the forefront because the show is not about a paper company. The show is about the people. The paper companies, the background. Right. Yeah. And so within that space, yes, that space contributes to their development. But I think the show just has so much to do with how the characters grow because of their interactions with each other, not in spite of their interactions with each other, which the show plays around with because they get so irritated with each other and you think they're sick of each other. Right. But then no one's going anywhere. Everyone is drawn back into that space. Yeah. Until the end, of course, when, of course, the show ends and they have to go their separate ways. But there's still that draw. That's fascinating. Yeah. I mean, I think it's Andy toward the end of the show, might even be in the last episode where he talks about, I wish you could know it was the good old days when the good old days were actually happening. And I think there's a sense in which that's what the show was intending to cultivate. I know. So my chapter, just for the listeners, I was looking at the role of technology in the office. And one of the things that I began to see was there's all these different instances in which technology becomes a threat.

to the people in the office because it threatens to pull them apart. One of my favorites is, it's one of the opening scenes, but a guy comes in and he's trying to sell them an automated, essentially an automated receptionist, which would eliminate Pam's position. And they end up getting rid of him. But it's just this little interaction where it's like, no, we've got to keep the group together. This, this group actually matters. And this is how we need to grow and sustain each other. And it doesn't really matter what the outside world is doing. We'll make it somehow. I mean, there's never really a plan. And I realized it's a TV show. It probably wouldn't happen in real life, but that's the goal is like, you have to keep the inner relationships together because if you don't keep the relationships together, there's really no point to being there. Yep. Yeah, no, yeah, absolutely. And, and even like that idea of the outside world, like you don't get too much of a picture of what's going on outside. You hear through the eyes of Scranton, Dunder Mifflin Scranton, what's happening outside. You hear about the other branches. You catch glimpses at the pic, you know, company picnic. You catch glimpses of those things. But it is, it is introspective. It is reflective on those interpersonal relationships within the office in a way that does address the external threats, not even just technology, other jobs, outside relationships, right? If with the death of Robert Mifflin or, you know, the death of, you know, these, all these threats that threaten people, but they're always drawn back into that inner space and that intra, you know, inner, uh, what am I thinking of? Interpersonal relationships with each other. And one of the, I was listening to, as I was working on this, listening to the Office Ladies podcast. Yeah, yeah. And they brought up an interesting point about the, um, the talking head shots where the individuals would be interviewed. And they said that it was intentional on part of the showrunners that when a character had some sense of hope of getting out of the office, their headshot was shot with the window in the background to outside. Okay. But when they were, when they were, when the character was feeling stuck, it was always the other way looking into the office and you see it in the background. Yeah. And so to think about, to think about that, right. And all of these characters' desires to get out, to get out of the space they're in, to get out of the moment. And then you get those comments like Andy, I wish there was a way to know you were in the good old days before they were gone. Right. You, they want that space because that space is the place in which they grew, in which they had their kids, in which they developed their relationships and got married. And right. Michael's not too far off when he says they're a family, you know, in the episode at the end where he's like, it's like a parent watching all of his kids grow up and marry each other. That's right. Yeah. They truly do develop. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. At really personal relationship throughout the nine seasons, no matter what you think about 7, 8, and 9, it continues to develop through that time and you get to the end and Ryan's still just a punk, right? He's still trying to escape. And I think I wish they would have talked more about that because he's a dog returning to his vomit, speaking of how it ties into Scripture. He's always, like he knows this stuff is going to bite him in the butt and he's always going back to it. He's always trying to make this new technology that destroys things. He's always trying, you know, he's always running back to Kelly, who's toxic and terrible for him. Right. And it's like, how often do we just do those same things? Like we are Ryan, no matter how much we want to judge him and pick on him, we are Ryan. That's right. Yeah, exactly. We just keep going back. No, I actually think, I know a lot of people didn't like the back three seasons, but I would say that's where some of my favorite moments, at least very, maybe I should say it like this. I think that those are the times when I could identify most with Jim. You know, Jim is going through this little crisis of, am I really stuck at this paper company? He starts to get the family. Like things start to actually work with him and Pam. And then all of a sudden he gets an itch to do something else. He gets this opportunity and he wants to leave, but he's got one foot in, one foot out. He's struggling with that whole thing. I thought those were, you know, for people who don't think there's character development in The Office. It seems to me that like those are the moments where Jim had to really own his choice. What do I really want here? Do I care about any of this other stuff or do I just want this that I have right now? And then it obviously opens up for him later. But I thought the way they handled that in those last few seasons was beautiful. I didn't, I obviously, I missed Michael, but I thought those back, yeah, those back several seasons, I thought they did them really, really well. I mean, they were so very fun to watch. And I thought you saw the characters move in reasonable trajectories based on where they'd started to come from. So. Oh, yeah. And it's like, even as you're talking about Jim, you almost see this, this as well, right? Because I love, you know, every year when I start my class at school, my theology class at school, we always read Life Together first. First four weeks of school, we read Life Together because he talks so much about the importance of community. But one of the things, I think it's in chapter three of that book, he talks about how it's a, it's a line. He says, Bonhoeffer, beware of the person who only spends time in community and can't spend time alone. And then vice versa, beware of the person who spends time alone and can't spend time in community. And we also, we kind of see in The Office this, a little bit of this space of toxic codependence that the characters get on each other, almost like because they are not confident in the relationships that they have in that space, that they struggle to step outside of that space to do anything else. And I think we see that with Jim, right? Because if I remember correctly, it's right after he really struggles with that, that him and Pam have their huge blow up, right? And they get into their huge argument and you see that development too that like, Oh, it's not rainbows and butterflies with these people, that even the people who we looked to for stability in this show are no longer stable. And it isn't until they work through that and they find that confidence and that trust in each other that the community can then repel people into their new spaces, not as a way of getting away from each other, but as a way of kind of missionally almost sending them out into these new spaces where they then can be the leaders that they've grown to be over the nine seasons, you know, nine years of the show. So we see them kind of get projected, propelled out of the office at the end. And then you got in, you know, the later seasons, you see, you know, Jim Carrey and Will Ferrell and all of these people coming in, leaving you with the question of who's going to fill Michael's shoes or I think, who's going to save this place? Dwight just shot a hole in the floor or, you know, Dwight just shot a gun in the office. Who's going to save this? Right. And it was, it wasn't, it wasn't this outside force that saves them, but someone from within who ends up coming in and bringing that stability and that filling that gap that Michael leaves, which is, you know, somewhat right. You can think glimmers of the idea that Jesus comes and he becomes one of us and from within he redeems and brings a healing to our space. And so even in those later seasons, you see a lot of that still matter. I think they're not quite as strong as the earlier seasons, but even still, there's solid development and solid theological reflection that can be seen in those later seasons. Well, you know, as you're thinking and reflecting on this book, right, there was what, 13, 14 chapters, 13 chapters in the book. Yeah. That's what I'm seeing. What are some of the highlights, man? I mean, what do you got? You know, I, I thought that, you know, the chapter that I think looks really interesting. You got

Awkward things to confound the wisdom of the management. I mean, there's just so many cool little plays here on what we can actually see and draw out from theology, but from your perspective, what were some of the highlights of the book, and what would you recommend for people looking to pick it up and read it? Yeah, so the beauty of a book like this is you could pick it up and you could read and read the chapters you were interested in. Like you don't have to read through the whole thing to get the point. I think that's one of the cool things. I tried to organize it in such a way where it was pretty thematic. So I broke it down into two parts where it's like the, so the two parts of the book are the office and the Christian life. There's eight chapters in that section, and then the office and Christian thought, which is five different chapters there as well. So while it's, it has an eye towards doing theology well in a way where it's an academic publisher, right, it's advancing the study of theology. It's also, I think that hopefully almost anyone could pick this up and understand it. So I think you could, you could pick it up and kind of read it piecemeal as you want to. But yeah, it was hard when I was developing this book because we had 60 proposals, I think it was, for this book. And I had really wrestled with potentially doing two volumes of it because there was so much interest, but I didn't want to lose the potency of it by just choosing it to do two volumes because I had proposals. That's why I stuck this way. But yeah, some of the, some of the highlights, the, the chapter on women in the church, basically what she's arguing is that you see how in the office, the women are really kind of put down. They're really kind of, you know, even the party planning committee is put into its own side room, like kind of get out of the way. Michael comes in only when he wants to throw money at them and tell them what they have to do. And they're kind of looked down upon, which is reminiscent of women throughout church history and how they've been treated in that, in the space of the church. And so what she's trying to do, and one of the things I really like, her thesis really goes around kind of like this. She says that throughout church history in the office, the role and power of women have been hidden and underestimated. And I think that's key with that chapter is to realize that it's not that they've been silent. It's that their voices have been hidden. I think that that's a really important point. And so as you watch the show and you see, you know, Phyllis, the quiet little church mouse hiding in the corner or Pam, who's afraid of stepping on people's toes, and then Angela, who just doesn't seem like she cares. You see them then put into this space where they're actually powerhouses. Pam created her own position secretly and Michael didn't even know it. Like she, she, not just any position for money, but he had to be sneaky about how to get a place of leadership where the, where she could then help manage and keep things sane in that space. And so throughout this chapter, she really begins, Jennifer really begins to, to highlight and to look at Pam and Michael's relationship and the party planning committee to understand then and reflect on the roles of people throughout women throughout church history, like Monica, right? Like Macrina. She goes through and looks at then how their voices have been powerful, even though they've been hidden. And she's, I think it's a really good work of, of kind of recovery of when theology done by women throughout church history by looking at how women had to work to gain power throughout the show, throughout the office, which is just fascinating. And I think so timely for, for the time that we're in. So that chapter was... Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. It's absolutely, I say one of my favorites. I picked 12. One of them is mine. I picked 12 of 60 proposals. So I kind of, they're all kind of my favorites, but that one's super fantastic. Uh, I really enjoyed as well. Tom McCall, uh, wrote a chapter with his son. On The Nature of Sin, right? And he talks about throughout his chapter, he begins to talk a little bit about the sinful life and the ludicrous and depressing nature of that life and how that shows up in the office, right? He defines sin in his chapter as sin as something against God and nature, right? So it's not just something we're doing against God, but against its contrary to the very being of who we are. And so he begins to look at how sin is on display throughout the office, right? Obviously sin is a religious term, so it's, it's reading into an understanding how that corruption of nature is, is affecting relationships and affecting the lives of the people in the show and how the way the show is made really leaves us wanting so much more for the characters, right? We get to a place where we long to see Michael redeem. I don't know about you, but it's like, I just wish Michael would get a girl already. Like he is so kind. Like he is so kind. Like I just want what's best for him. And so that same longing and desire that we have for those characters in the show is a reflection of the same longing that humanity has for redemption and wholeness, for healing. And the problem is, is that if we don't understand what the problem actually is, that it's that sinful corruption of our natures, then we're not going to be able to seek healing in the right places. And so the chapter that Tom and his son, Isaac did was really helpful because it helps us to begin to think about that longing that we have, right? And even those who have been redeemed, right? Those who are followers of Christ now, we still live in this, in this broken space because of sin, and we still have that longing for new creation, right? And so he really begins to highlight that and bring that out again in that kind of parabolic way by looking at the office and the way the show was made and how it makes us desire and want so much more. It's like a hard, which ones do I want to talk about? They're all so great. Yeah, I mean, Amar Peterman wrote a fantastic essay on the idea of pluralism and religious hospitality in the office. And you think about, right, when the tech guys come in who are Sikh, and they just, they don't know how, how to handle that. And they don't know how to be hospitable towards that. And so his, his big challenge in his chapter is to show how Jesus created hospitable places in which people can come to experience each other and to experience him. And so he, he highlights that in a less analogous way by applying it specifically to the workplace, right? Looking at office as a workplace and then applying that to how we can be hospitable in the workplace, uh, even still to this, uh, in our current contexts. Um, and then I really liked as well. Uh, and I just, I mean, people, you just got to get the book and read it. They're also good. Uh, but I really enjoyed as well. There's some chapters, uh, Mary, uh, Danbury wrote a chapter, chapter seven in the book on Michael Scott as a prophet. Michael Scott as a prophet, looking at, um, uh, using Walter Brueggemann's theology of prophecy and prophetic imagination and applying that to the imagination that Michael has for the office, even when misdirected, right? And highlighting how Michael's desires and dreams and goals are actually in a way helpful for the growth of the office. And you do see throughout that even though he messes up in many ways, as many prophets did, a lot of what he's doing is, is calling the office to account and calling the office to come together and to be the community that they're intended to be, which is super cool.

And then you see some others about community, right? Carolyn Beard wrote one on the office and the unlikely communion of saints, which is so funny because I actually have a Dwight Schrute votive candle, votive or a prayer candle. Someone gave it to me, so I literally have like this little, it's a total joke. I don't pray to Dwight Schrute, but I know some people who are, no, no, no. I know some people who are not happy that I have that, but I see that candle and I think of this chapter like this where she looks at the idea of and explores more deeply the idea of sainthood, what that means and how the different characters in the show, like Michael Dwight or Pam, kind of serve as that kind of that saint within the show, not necessarily ethically speaking of the role they play in terms of the relationships with others. It's really interesting. That's super cool. So those are just some of the highlights. I mean, there's just so many, so many good ones. We have one on the Trinity and Dorothy Sayers analogy of the Trinity and how the office can kind of come into and deepen our understanding of the Trinity. We have a chapter 12 was really fascinating as well, where Corey Tuttle talks about Michael Scott's use of religion as a way to bail himself out of trouble in contrast with Karl Barth and Dietrich Bonhoeffer's understanding of religion and redemption and what religion is supposed to be for. So that is fascinating. Obviously, your chapter is super good, especially in the technological world we live in. I mean, yeah, I could just go on and on. I'm super thrilled with these chapters. You do. I mean, I think it turned out great. And, you know, overall, I had trouble narrowing down. Like when I was thinking about, okay, what do I want to write on? I happened to be writing on technology at the time. So I just, I ended up going that direction. I thought it would dovetail a little easier with the research, but I mean, issues of diversity, in-group and out-group sort of dynamics. There's so much you can actually look at in the office that is just super interesting and super compelling. And I think partly because it went on for so many seasons. There's just a lot of fodder to work with there. But what I love about even, and I agree with you. I mean, I think the earlier seasons were much stronger than the later seasons, but I would still say that the people who did it did a fantastic job of keeping it cohesive. It never feels like one of those, that like you, I can, I don't think I can remember a time during the office where I was like, Oh, that just feels like that never would have happened. You know what I mean? Like this character never would have gone that way. That's completely off base. You know, and crazy. They really did hold it together as kind of a cohesive narrative with these people. And I think that's part of the, sort of the magic of the show. So it was difficult to choose, but I think you did a great job editing it, man. And what's next? Are you going to do another one of these? Put you on the spot a little bit, but what are you signing up for? So I'm in the pop culture world. I am currently in the peer review process for Ted Lasso, Theology, Religion, and Ted Lasso. So I have that whole manuscript done. So now we, I just this week, it coincided. It was funny because I got the proofs back for Theology in the Office this week. So now I have to index that. That's going to be fun. So I'm working on indexing that, but I also just got back the peer review report for Theology, Religion, and Ted Lasso. And so that is the next big thing in the pop culture world that I'm working on. That should be pretty good too. It's, that show is a little different because there's only, what, four, three seasons, four seasons, three seasons of it, I think it is. Yeah, I think they're actually coming out with a new season, aren't they? Yeah, they didn't consult me when they decided to do that. And I had already concluded my book and the storyline about these characters. So I'm a little disappointed. I'm a little disappointed that that's the case because I was like, oh, now there's more content coming out. But I mean, I'm excited as a fan of the show. Yeah, absolutely. But that one, that show is super interesting too in just the ways they go about and explore the idea of, you know, belief. And I don't know if you've seen Ted Lasso, but it's, it's good too. So yeah, that's the next, that's the next big pop culture thing. I'm trying not to pigeonhole myself into pop culture. That's not, that's not my thing. Most of my work is in Christology and ecclesiology. So I'm waiting to hear back right now from TNT Clark. I'm working with one of the authors of this book, actually, Daniel Rempel, wrote a chapter on the church for Theology in the Office. Great title too. He says, we've wasted too much time, too much of our time ignoring the fact that we belong together. Office belonging in the body of Christ. So Daniel and I are actually working on editing the TNT Clark Handbook of Ecumenical Studies, or Ecumenical Theology and Practice. So that's the next kind of big project besides pop culture that's coming. That's awesome, man. Well, we'll put, it's still in pre-order, right? The book? Yep. Am I remembering that correctly? The thought is that it'll be released in December. In December. Okay. So we can look for this coming up right around Christmas time. It'll be perfect. You can get, like, people can White Elephant this, and it'll be a beautiful thing, right? That's an expensive White Elephant, but please do because the people who buy it now will make it cheaper for the rest of us. That's right. It's the iPod, you know, in the Yankee swap. That's what it is. Yes. So someone please, please put this as the iPod in your Christmas swaps. Yes. Yankee swap, theology, religion, and the office. Well, Dan, this has been a fantastic conversation. I could kind of sit around and talk about the office all day, but I really loved participating in this. It was a fun project. And oddly intellectually stimulating, I'll say. It was my first foray into pop culture kind of stuff and just really enjoyed it. I loved the office anyway, so I mean, the research was fun. But also just being able to navigate some of these things from a biblical and theological perspective and thinking through how this series conveys something that's extremely true, but also needs supplementation with the Bible, with theology, and with Jesus Christ. I think it was just a wonderful project. So, yeah, thanks for taking it on. I really appreciate the opportunity. And hopefully folks will be out there and they'll definitely get it for their Yankees walks. They should. And the more people do, I'll just say, the sooner we get it to paperback, it's only $40 on paperback. So essentially, yeah, the sooner we get it to paperback, the better. So $40 on paperback then and everyone could buy it. Let's let's make this the best selling book in the series. That'd be fantastic, man. Yeah. Well, again, thanks for being here. Thanks for talking through it. I'll put the link to the preorder page in the show notes, everybody. So if you're interested, you want to get the preorder, you'll be able to find it. And if not, you can you can wait till it comes out officially, but it'll be the same link. So check it out. It's got a lot of really cool essays in it and it's just a great topic. Anybody who loves The Office should pick this up. If you're a librarian, if you're at a church, you want to get it and bless your pastoral staff. This would be a great work, I think, for them. And I know a lot of people love The Office. I do. That's why it kind of drew me. That's what drew me to the project. So I just encourage you to pick it up and Dan, we'll look forward to some of your other work coming out, man. Thanks a lot. Yeah. Yeah, thanks for having me. Absolutely. All right, everybody. We'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Hey there, it's Nicole Eunice from the How to Study the Bible podcast, and I'd love to invite you to join us as we weekly discover a passage of God's word together from beginning to end, from principles to practicals. We are here to make sure that God's word is powerful and relevant to your life. If that sounds like something you're looking for, I would love to invite you to subscribe. You can go to lifeaudio.com and search how to study the Bible and we'll see you there.