Shane Wood | What Does It Mean to Be Human? Technology, AI, and the Image of God

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm James Spencer, and I'm excited today to welcome Shane Wood. Shane is actually a professor of New Testament at Ozark Christian College, and today we're going to be discussing a piece that he wrote about what it means to be human in relation to technology. And so, Shane, welcome to the podcast, man. Thanks for being here. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, so tell me a little bit about what prompted you to even be interested in this idea of humanity and technology. Like, what drove you to write the piece that you did? Yeah, really a couple different things. You know, my, as a professor at a college, but, you know, I hang out with 18 to 22-year-olds a lot. And helping them kind of think through, especially at a Christian college where I'm helping them think through their faith and think through, really, kind of stepping into their identity as adults. But, you know, this is my 15th year of doing it, and I've just watched the questions change over the years. And so, obviously, this generation has been, you know, was very much disrupted in a pretty unique way with 2020 and COVID and the way that technology kind of swelled in a very different way. And then, obviously, the last couple years, they've been asking even more, like, different questions. But, frankly, I've noticed this what does it mean to be human question emerging even before AI. It's just kind of expedited the conversation. And so I was actually just walking around the city of Boston, finding coffee shops and sitting down and writing, and that was the question that came to my mind. Thinking back on a class that I had with them where we asked the question, what does it mean to be human? Yeah, it's really interesting. And I'm wondering, you know, given that you work with undergraduate students, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how they're responding to technology post-COVID. My son would have been in, I think, junior high, if I'm remembering correctly. Either junior high or going into high school. He may have done his freshman year online and really did not have a great experience. The school that he was in just wasn't prepped for online. You know, they weren't, they didn't, they didn't have any idea what they were doing. And so it was just sort of like throw the spaghetti at the wall. He had a horrible experience, didn't learn a whole lot, and it kind of soured him on the whole thing. And I think in a way it was kind of good for him because he doesn't, even now, lean on technology so much. He's definitely a techie kid. I mean, he just built his own computer and all that kind of fun stuff. So he does it, but he's not online 24-7. He's not doing all that kind of stuff. And I think he prefers being in class, being, you know, in a physical setting. And so I'm wondering, you know, these folks who went through COVID, are they, do they have a different perspective on technology than maybe we hear about often? Yeah, you know, I actually think your insights there are really important. So, you know, I see this collision of worlds, you know. There's this entrepreneurial business aspect that is all in on technology and AI and and even administrators of universities and even public school systems. They're all in on the technology. But really the tension is, is that generation, especially with COVID and those that are coming up, they really have a tension with it. Their world is saturated in it. They're not as intrigued by it as my generation or, you know, those of us that are even older than me. But it's almost like this necessary reality. I won't say the word evil because I don't know that they really engage it either way. They almost have an indifference to it, but I think that's also what makes it a little bit more dangerous for them because they almost are semi-neutral or indifferent to it. And it becomes a part of life integrated in a way that they can't even discern. So one of the things that I'm thinking through is, I've noticed in this generation, they almost, their relationships are almost curated like they do algorithms online. It's so intuitive to just swipe a direction or move the next reel or like or dislike. And so they, because it's almost like they're indifferent to the technology, they don't even realize how some of the algorithm way of thinking reprograms how they interact with each other. Yeah, yeah. It's really interesting. I mean, there's, there's a whole literature in the embodied psychology, embodied cognition sort of realm that talks about the differences between human thought and how we go about making decisions and discerning what's relevant in our lives and what's not. And the sort of computational processes that go on behind the algorithms that even artificial intelligence is using. And just highlighting the differences that artificial intelligence really is, in that sense, artificial. Our brains aren't strictly computational. They're not just compiling all of this data and sort of running it through the math. There is something more intuitive about the way we do things. And so it's interesting to think how this sort of, maybe an efficiency mindset, maybe a, you know, sort of a, I don't even know how to describe it, but almost like a transactional mindset is infiltrating and influencing the way that we are actually thinking about one another. No, and I think that word transactional is a great way of describing, I think, both what is happening and the danger of what's happening. So there's the song, and I don't, I don't even, I don't even remember the name, but it's a, it's a worship song, but there's a line in it, and I always forget the song, even as I'm singing in and church. And then the line comes every time it does. My wife laughs at me because then I'm like, oh, and it's, I can't, I'm probably going to be misspoke the line, but it's something to the effect of, and I will not let emotions shape me. Something along those lines. Like I refuse to let, you know, my emotions shape me. And part of my thought with this is, I don't even know if we know where emotions, what, what they are and how they integrate into Christianity or what it means to be human. So when you think of transactions as a relationship, the emotions are actually not a part of it. They're in some sense set aside because it's literally, I want this, you have what I want. I have what you want. We make a transaction. And I hate to say it like this, but honestly, it reminds me of Revelation 17 and the relationship between the prostitute and a client. It's transactional, but, but love and emotions. And frankly, even at times what I see with some of the algorithmic way of engaging relationships is they're even confused when someone gets upset because they've dropped this person or broken this relationship because a machine never shows emotion back saying, Hey, that hurt me. Like that's not a, so, so there's almost this stunted relationship with emotion that I think predates technology. This to me, this goes back to the trajectory of the enlightenment as a whole where Rene Descartes defines his identity as a human by, I think, therefore I am. Yeah. But where does emotion play into this? And so what I'm seeing increasingly in the church as the technology increases, I'm seeing the, we have emotions, but we've not been trained in the church what to do with them. And so it's almost like at times we're using our emotions as children, you know, whether it be anger or whether it be desire or whether it even be, you know, even cravings for knowledge or position. We don't know what to do with the emotions. And so we grab them like a child that has a steak knife and just starts swinging and we're hurting ourselves and other people. And we don't know how to respond to that. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Yeah, and they're just going back to something you said, you know, about it.

being easy to swipe right or, you know, flip the reel up, there's maybe there's a sense in which we become less, we view it as less necessary to engage with people who are having strong emotion because we don't ever do this any other time. There's no reason for us to give sustained attention really to anything because there's always something around the corner that's probably going to make us feel a little better or at least be novel to what's going on here. And so I could see how, and I don't know whether this is actually the case or not, but I could certainly see how we could get to a point where we're saying, this conversation doesn't make me feel good. I don't really want to be in this conversation. And so I'm just going to move on. Yeah. You know, that sort of passing of, you know, there's no real depth. It's just all very, well, I'll come back when you're posting something that's more interesting for me. You know, if that starts carrying over into our, you know, a day-to-day lives, I think that's extremely problematic. Yeah. And which, again, some of these, what I find interesting about the conversation of technology is that it's really just reshaped old conversations or old patterns that we've had. So as you were describing that, I remember being, I think it was like a junior, senior in high school, and having like a, something feels wrong here. We were having a Compassion International Sunday at our church, which, you know, that old organization where I believe they're still doing great things and exist still, but you know, where you can, you know, like sponsor a child that doesn't have the basic needs. And it's a wonder, we've done it with all of our kids. Every kid that we've had, we also had a Compassion kid that we supported alongside of them. But I remember one Sunday at the church standing next to somebody that was in my youth group, so a fellow peer, and they're going through the kids, like they had these little packets of the kids inside the boxes. And they were like, no, I want somebody cuter. No, I want somebody. And I'm sitting there thinking, wait a minute, this is, this is, you're not shopping for clothes. This is a human being. But what's fascinating about that is that, is that this, is that now technology has taken that same thing. It's just recast it where we're, we've found a different way to transactionally dehumanize people and kind of a, you know, consumerism is not the problem. It's just another symptom of a problem we've been struggling with for thousands of years. You know, this dehumanizing of another. And so, yeah, so from avoiding a conversation by just moving on or even relationships. And that's one of the things, so I feel like I'm talking too negative. One of the things though I find positive is that usually when we focus on the, the, the behaviors that these generations are responding to, it also kind of can illuminate to the church the thing, the lack of need, the things that they need that they don't even know they need, like, like deep community, which the church should be able to provide that. I mean, like, that's, that's a part of the gift of the spirit and the unity. So definitely there's some negative stuff, but I don't, I don't see it as this vastly new war. I see it as just old stuff recast in a new light. I think that's a good way to put it. I mean, as I've thought through this, I think we don't get to this point if we, if we had a robust understanding of what it meant to be human and a robust understanding and conviction about commitment to really being the church. And so I think somewhere along the way, we didn't have a sufficiently robust theology that was controlling aspects of our behavior and really helping us think through the decisions that we're making. One of the things I've, I've kind of read up on a little bit is Amish decision-making. I also, yeah, I always thought the Amish were like, they were just anti-technology, like nothing, right? Sure. But from what I understand is they actually go through a decision process that says, will adopting X, Y, or Z technology help our community stay together or does it have a potential to pull us apart? Now, obviously I don't want to advocate for going into an Amish decision-making process, right? You know, that's, that's a little different than what I'm saying, but I think the decision process where that's at least a question, what is this going to do to our community and how do we ensure that this community stays together even though this technology might influence us? And we've just not been good about asking those questions because I don't think we have a real clear idea. And maybe this almost has to influence every tradition. So, you know, Greek Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant. But I would say particularly within the Protestant tradition, we don't have strong ecclesiology anyway. That just hasn't been something that we tend to focus on. And, and I think those, maybe I'm wrong. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. Seems to me that ecclesiology and theological anthropology are in some ways, you know, sort of joined at the hip and that without one, you're not going to have the other. Absolutely. No. And I, you know, it's the, I love and treasure the idea of Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior. But when that's repeated and that's, and that's in a sense conditioned into our people, yeah, isolation becomes more a part of our ecclesiology than, than communion. And I even use that word intentionally because I do think that our behaviors within our worship services communicate something about who we think we are as a collective whole and who we think we are as a human. And whenever we are taking the Lord's Supper, but it's the most isolated moment of the entire service that says something about, well, and that has ramifications for our behaviors moving forward. And so I talk about this in my, one of the classes I teach here where I say, listen, it is true. Jesus is your savior, but you also have to understand that he is your Lord and you, you cannot have him as your savior and deny him as your Lord. And the reason why that's so important is that the savior is this usually, it focuses on the individual and what the individual receives. Right. But whenever you're looking at the concept of Jesus as Lord, you're looking at what the individual must give up on behalf of something that's greater than themselves. And we do in the Protestant church, it was, it was a necessary 500 years ago corrective of, and the Catholic church has, has to their credit admitted, yeah, we were off base. Now I do always remind my students, I said, it was called the reformation, not a segregation, but that's, that ship has sailed. I think, right. I think we're, yeah, we're well beyond that. But, but you're right though. I think the ecclesiology says something about our theological anthropology because ultimately our theological anthropology is defined by our Christology, who we think Jesus is and how that unveils to us who we are. So I, so I, I do this. I actually did this in a sermon about 10 years ago and it was one of those, one of those moments in a sermon where you're like, oh, I'll never forget this. So my, I'm talking to these, you know, at this youth convention, so 18 to 14 to 18 year olds. And I said, okay, let me just say my sermon in one two word sentence, stop sinning. And they just laughed at me. I mean, they just, they just openly laughed and mocked. And so I said, no, I'm not kidding. Stop sinning. And one of the things I've wrestled with is we've almost defined humanity as humans equal those that sin. And my questions back were like, so was like, okay, so then was Jesus never human? You're like, or was Adam and Eve not human until Genesis three? So like, so the irony is, is that our ecclesiology, which on some sense has led to this individualism, we are so individually focused and our Christology is impacted by that. We think that Jesus only came to take away this condition that that is a precondition to be human. And my response is actually, he came to reveal to us what it means to be truly human, more human than any of us have ever envisioned. But you're right. The individualism of our ecclesiology impacts our theological anthropology, which I think impacts our Christology. We don't even really know who Jesus is. Yeah. Well, and I think this plays into what, one of the things I've been sort of playing around with in this, because I've been thinking about what does it mean to be truly human? How do we actually get our heads around this? And what does that look like in the realm of technology? And one of the ideas I keep coming back to is authority. And so, so much of this is about not appropriately scoping and creating boundaries for the way different things have authority. So even if we said, okay, all of this sits under the authority of Christ, right? We see that in the Great Commission. He's been given authority in heaven and earth over all things in heaven and earth. Our job as disciples is to learn to live under that authority. That doesn't mean that nothing else has authority, right? This is why we have governing authorities, for instance. And they have a scope.

of that authority. And part of the problem that we often have with governing authorities is that we allow that scope to expand beyond the actual scope that God has given it. And so what we've tended to do, I think, and I think your conversation with sin sort of gestures toward this, is we've decided that we're going to say, well, it's OK that we sin because that's just what humans are. Well, what we should be saying is, no, the real essence of what it means to be human is found in something like 1 John 1.9. Right? When we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanses of our unrighteousness. It's the confession is really where we find, come closer to our true humanity because what we're saying there is, we're going to sit underneath God's authority by confessing our sins, even when it's extremely inconvenient and potentially hurtful for us to do so. Like we're going to align that deeply with Christ's authority. And so this this issue of authority, I think, is crucial to what it means to be human because we are designed to be dependent on, not independent from God. Yeah, which is Trinitarian, you know, the interdependence of the three persons is our model for what it means for us to be human, not just with each other, but with God himself. No, I, I think you're exactly right. And the thing is, is that that authority and in dominion is from Genesis 1. I mean, that's, as he creates us, he entrusts us with dominion and authority. I was talking to my buddy last night at our at our home group, and I just said, the thing I always find interesting is that when Satan tempts Jesus in Matthew 4, I'll give you all the kingdoms of the world. All you have to do is bow down. It was like he actually is not, that's not a false promise because we were entrusted with dominion over the world. But in Genesis 3, we actually handed that authority over to Satan. Why? Because, and this is Irenaeus, early church father, second century, middle of the second century. He said the original sin was haste. That it was never said that we would never eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which I think AI is fascinatingly wrapped up in this idea of accumulating knowledge. But it's, it's that, but you are not to do it right now. And Irenaeus, and I think that he's right on this, is he says, but there would have been a maturation of humanity in the presence of God where we had the capacity eventually to eat of the tree and it not actually produce death, but it produce more life. And that the fascinating thing about that, this even goes back to something you were saying earlier, is we're, we're creating things and we're engaging things, but we're not asking the question, do we have the capacity, or I would even say the virtue, to receive it and to retain who we are once we have it. You know, I think about my children with this, with their, with technology, with, with their smartphones and with really even social media. It's like, it's not that these things in and of themselves are evil, but it's, but it's when you receive it, who are you and do you have the capacity to actually re-engage it and not lose yourself? Yeah, and I agree with that. I think there's a sense in which, and I don't exactly know how this works, so I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I promise. And so when I, when I say this, sometimes I feel like a conspiracy theorist, but I'm really not one. I, I wonder to what extent there is a sort of underlying ideology around technology that is, even if it's not explicitly transhumanist, and I don't know how familiar you are with the transhumanist movement, but this idea that we should be able to overcome our human limitations, our biological limitations through technology whenever possible. And, and so, you know, it leads to things like, um, brain chips and, um, you know, technological implants, um, you know, RFID cards in your hand to pay for things, right? Like, it leads to those sort of ideas, but it's also just an ideology about how we go about um fixing humanity through technology. And so I guess my point is, um, I think there's probably harder and softer forms of transhumanism, but it feels to me like the thrust of the technological ideology is, look, progress is good, um, efficiency is good, and so why wouldn't we do these things? And even if these things don't quite work the way we want them to right at this moment, we'll get them there. Which again speaks to this idea of progress. Now you go back to somebody like C.S. Lewis and you would say, you know, sometimes the most progressive person is the person who realizes they're walking down the wrong path and turns around. Right? Uh, but I, I think there's, you know, there's a notion of progress there that could be um really teased out and, you know, you would drill down on that and say, how do we know we're going in the right direction? And doesn't that, doesn't progress require that we know we're going in the right direction? Um, but I do wonder, I guess the, the point is, I wonder if we are allowing a, an ideology that, that sort of undergirds the technological revolutions that we're in to drive us toward a vision of humanity that has real limitations, if not uh contradictions to what we would consider to be a robust theological anthropology. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide, or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Yeah, what's interesting about that, as you were talking, I'm sitting here thinking, gosh, so, I mean, this is going to sound terrible, but I'm like, man, Satan is just so shrewd. So I, I don't, I mean, I believe, and this is more philosophical in nature, although I think, you know, the theology affirms this. You know, evil can't create. It's, it's not a generative, it's usually a degenerative in its nature. Right, right. But evil can distort what has been created. Yeah. And as you were talking about that, I'm sitting here going, all that progress really is in that definition and that ideology is a distortion of transformation, which God himself put in us whenever he put the image in us. Right. We were always meant to be more than even where we started, always. And that's, you know, the, the, the, the unearthing of ourselves and receiving of the fruits of the Spirit helps us continue to draw, not just draw closer to Jesus, but as 1 Peter says, you know, to, to partake in the divine nature, which is an absurd capacity that our bodies and our, that house a mind and a heart and a soul, which I find that to be as beautifully absurd as it gets too. Yeah. But we have the capacity to unite with that which is beyond us. So in this ideology, you can see strands of Christian theology just twisted. Like, for example, they also are admitting that there is something broken in humanity, which Christian theology also agrees with. But you're right, it's the, it's the solution or frankly, even the methodology by which we even gauge the solution that we ultimately have to wrestle with. And, and this again takes me back to the temptations of Christ with Satan. Christ came to establish a kingdom. Yeah. So the target was fixed. Satan understood that. All right, I will give you the kingdom I am over, but the methodology is bow down and worship me and avoid a cross. And that's something else I think, you know, to lay alongside of your word efficiency, which I think is a, I actually have a piece. I just haven't edited it yet, but I do have a concern about the engagement of efficiency inside of the church because beauty is not efficient and love is not efficient. They are remarkably wasteful. And that's what makes them valuable. But laying next to efficiency is also this, um, I know what the goal, the end justifies the means is also a part of this ideology that I think also we find in the church. And I'm always pushing my kids, especially. I say, listen, the end never justifies the means because the means defines who you are when you get to the end. That's essential. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I think there, there've been a couple areas in my life where I've thought this through. One is the tattoos. You mentioned the tattoos before we were recording, but it's like they have now a, you know, AIs that'll generate tattoos for you. And I always find that to be interesting.

be a little disappointing because I sort of enjoyed sitting with my artist and having a conversation and figuring out what would work and like, you know, having her creative ideas bounce off my creative ideas and coming up with what we wanted. And even if it's like at the end of the day, you know, you think, oh, I wish I could have done this, this or this. I'd take that process over perfection any day. Right? Because that's just part of the experience. Right? And so there's that. And then there's, you know, the weight training. Like I do, you know, I was a personal trainer going through my MDiv, and you don't, I never would have thought to have a client come in and say, okay, today's workout, you're just going to sit in the corner and watch me lift. And somehow think that that's going to be effective for them. Right? Like at some point the effort actually matters. And so when we're sort of giving a lot of this away, we're outsourcing a lot of this to artificial intelligence or wherever. I don't necessarily have a problem with doing it on occasion. I use AI in various ways. I use social media. Like I'm not anti-tech, but I do think that we're not kind of coming back to where we started this whole thing. When we think about what it means to be human and effortful engagement with the world, it seems to me to be part of what it means to be human. And so, yeah, there's just that part of it where it's like, we can't lose that completely because if we do, we're losing an awful lot of what could be formative for us down the road. And this is, I think, again, this goes back to our spiritual DNA inherited from Genesis 3. The issue in Genesis 3 is they were wanting to skip steps. They just, they thought the destination was more valuable than the process. And we have inherited that. And that's where a lot of technology is in the name of another way of looking at progress is and efficiency. It's getting you to the destination as quick and as seamless as possible. But you're right. Like there are things. So I've learned of this in my own transformation. So I've, in one of my last books, I wrote about being a sexual abuse victim and wrestling with the theology of Christ resurrecting me and dealing with the anger of my abuser and like all this stuff in it. And the bummer is, is I've had people talk to me about it and they go, so how did you heal? And they're looking for like a thing, like a pill or like something that will help them skip steps. And I always say, first of all, I am healing. And second of all, hundreds, thousands of hours of wrestling, of counseling, of therapy. And at this point, I even, I was telling somebody the other day, they said, what are you most thankful for? A significant thing in your life you're most thankful for. And I said, at this point, I can honestly say my sexual abuse, but it's the process that has birthed that. It's not the destination of transformation or of healing. We even think we're looking for the quick, the end around, the way to skip steps, but God never skipped steps. He refuses to skip steps. He could have, he could have cut out the incarnation and just said, you know, we're not going to have that big charade of all the pain. We're going to skip steps and now you're saved. Instead, there's something that is more valuable in the journey than the destination that we don't give it credit for. And I do think that's a temptation of technology to skip steps. Yeah. And I think we're, well, usually when we, and I think it's worth clarifying, just when we think about technology, where my head goes through that story is, you know, we've got now the GLP ones and the Ozempics and the different pills that can be taken to overcome the human condition. We have a problem viewing our constraints as anything but limitations. Yeah. And, and sometimes that just isn't the case. I think sometimes, you know, uh, there are times where I would say not being able to do something I could do in my twenties is probably good for me. It's not a bad thing that I can't do what I did in my twenties, right? Because it's probably a good thing and, and it does form and shape you in different ways. It gives you a different perspective on the world. You know, it does good things for you. Now, if I can just go and correct that, maybe that's not the best thing for me. And I think there's something to, you, you mentioned the word maturation, right? I do think there's something too. It drove me nuts when I was like early theology student in my, I had one professor tell me that I wouldn't be respected until I got gray hair and a paunch, right? And I understood what he was saying. Um, I'm still trying to avoid the gray hair and the paunch, but I, I got what he was saying. It's like, you need those years under your belt. There, there is something that experience only can teach. And part of that experience is the, the slow, hopefully degradation of our bodies, the loss of certain functions, but the gain of others. And I think that time progression, our, our experience in time, in the world, in, you know, our physicality in the world is part of that sort of, here's what it means to be human. Yeah. A hundred percent. I, I, I want to even, yeah, what you took there and then something else you said earlier. It's, it's also though about the, the effort that is essential to maturation because I tell my kids all the time, I'm like, no, there's, there's 65 year olds that I, that still act like teenagers, uh, because they're just still self-centered. It's like the number doesn't matter to me. Right. Right. Because you can pass time and not actually be maturing. There has to be that, that intentionality. That's why I love the, the mystery to me about, about being human. Um, you know, and this, this goes back to, to Socrates and metaphysics of, you know, of pre-Plato and platonic and middle platonic. It's the humanity is this collision of being and becoming, uh, which, which is this, it's this incomprehensible union of something that is stable and something that is not stable. Um, and the, the most beautiful thing is, is that ultimately that being and becoming climaxes in Christ himself, where the divine nature becomes one with the human nature. But, but Christ is ultimately showing what the capacity for humanity is. And that is to become united with God, but not by obliterating the boundaries. And this goes back to your, uh, the original point. There's actually a beauty and a holiness in retaining the boundaries because that's what also gives us our individuality. So now if I can speak on behalf of individuality, it's, it's this idea of union without obliteration of this becoming one without losing yourself. Uh, you know, you know, that's where like Buddhism and Hinduism, they talk about, you know, you're going to be returning back to this, you know, that you're a drop and you return back to the great ocean and then you cease to be the drop. That's not Christian theology, but that is the understanding of union when it comes to death. You know, death, you become one with death and then it obliterates you. But when you become one with Christ, it enhances you, but it's, it preserves the boundaries that we actually are raging against, which is, um, which again is Genesis 3. Um, when God kicks them out of Eden, that boundary was not just, was not really a punishment. That boundary was actually his way of bringing them back to Eden in Revelation 21 and 22. Right. But, but we look at all boundaries, you know, tower of Babel, like you, you mean, even, you know, when they're at the base of Mount Sinai and Moses is up there, every boundary we think is a threat. Yeah. When in reality, it's actually this, um, divine wisdom to bring us closer to God if we allow the boundary to do its role, to play its role, to do its job. Yeah. There's a sense of proper ordering. And I, and I think when I try to explain this to people, um, the best I've come up with and all analogies are kind of bad, right? But one of the ones I used, if you, if you imagine, uh, you're, you have an iPad or a phone sitting on a table and you're also drinking a cup of coffee. Those two things can coexist together. So long as the coffee stays in its cup and the iPhone and iPad stay on the table. As soon as you take the iPhone or iPad and try to dip it in the cup of coffee or the coffee spills out of the cup onto the iPhone iPad, you've got a little bit of an emergency because those boundaries exist for a reason. Yeah. Um, even though, you know, things have gotten a little more waterproof, you don't want to just sit your iPhone down in a pool of coffee and go, Oh, that'll be fine. Intuitively. We know that's not true. Right. And that's because you've got these boundary lines between these things. Now the coexistence aspect is, is just okay. You know, what we really want is more of an organic interaction. And so things like, you know, holding hands or, you know, working alongside someone else, those kinds of things, like you, you have other analogies that you could use. But I think the illustration of the boundaries is really helpful

benefit to do so. It requires discernment. And so it's not like, hey, let's stop all progress. Let's never do anything innovative again. Let's not think outside the box or anything like that. It's let's discern to the best we possibly can whether and how this thing that we want to do helps us become more human as opposed to hindering us from becoming more human. And what I hear you describing, you know, parallels, you know, the, I love the, I'm going to have to do some research on that Amish way of, but it's the word of the word that keeps coming to my mind is, yeah, when we engage technology without discernment, without any space to add in patience and wisdom, we're being as we're being, yeah, we're being as reckless as, as setting your iPhone down anywhere. It doesn't really matter where it is because, you know, it can be in a puddle or it can be, and that, that way of moving is the reason why I think that, you know, the fruit of the spirit ends with and self-control. You know, you love joy, peace. Self-control is so huge because you stop and say, I don't know that I'm actually ready to engage whatever the, the, this is. Yeah. I don't know if I'm ready. I may, I may need more maturation. Well, well, let me ask you this because I, we're getting a little close to the end of the episode here. So let me just ask you this. We, we've covered a few things. We've covered effort, you know, sort of as part of human capacity. I think we've got boundaries and limitations, you know, in my phraseology would be dependence on rather than independence from God, right? So there's a right relationship there that, that sort of marks out what, what it means to be human. We've, we've covered sort of the social aspect of what it means to be human, a deep connection with others. And we could probably tease some of that out. What other, what other aspects of humanity, you know, when we say, what does it really mean to be human? What are some of the other aspects of that? I don't want to ask you for a definition unless you want to give one, but just some of those elements and descriptions of what it means to be human. Yeah, you know, and I, I really kind of feel like I'm still in process on that. And that's part of what the piece really was that I wrote was, was more just like reflecting. I did, I did surprise myself at the end of, of the piece though, whenever I was like, you know, there may be something about giving some of ourselves to something else, like an inanimate object. And then now we can refer to it as artificial intelligence that seems very Godlike, but also what it means to bear the image of God in us. And that's part of the reason why I'm not anti-AI. I'm going like, no, we're actually just expressing what God did in Genesis 1 whenever he took his image and put it on us, which is a wild movement of freedom and choice, which I do think that we as humans, when we do things like that, like create, like do art, we are engaging in the creative act. Or even to go back to something you brought up when we choose to confess, part of the way I describe confession is Genesis 1. Like words create worlds. And when you speak them out loud, you're creating a new world. I mean, confession is engaging that. And so I do think part of what it means to be human is to create. And that's why I'm not anti-technology or anti-even whatever we're defining as progress. But I do think, I do think part of what it means to be human is to, as you mentioned with aging, is also to embrace your limitations. You know, I, I teach my kids. I say, you know, humility is not a divine depression where you speak down about yourself. Humility is knowing exactly who you are, not higher, not lower, knowing exactly who you are and being and embracing that as a gift. And I think part of, of what it means to be human is that, is knowing what you have the capacity to do and to receive in this moment and being okay with that. Surrendering, I think is an act of being human that's unique to us. So for me, for me, this is a, I would, I would actually loathe the idea of me giving a definition because I don't want definitions a lot of times in conversations. And I think this is an important conversation for the church to keep having. Yeah. Agreed. Something that that answer sparks for me then is, you know, the tower of Babel narrative. And we wouldn't necessarily have a lot of time to go into that, but it does seem to me that part of what we're struggling with right now, if humanity is just at baseline supposed to be, even if we went to something like the chief aim of man, right? Understand, enjoy, glorify God forever. Right. And you say, well, much of the world is now capable of coordinating in a way that transcends language and transcends geographic boundaries. And they're able to put together infrastructure and to build these sort of amazing things that ultimately stop short of pointing to and glorifying the triune God. Right. And so the church, while we, we're obviously in touch with that world, we can't isolate ourselves from it. And this is where I think, you know, the Amish mentality sort of ends for me. Right. They are a little more of an isolated community than I would prefer to be as the church. But I think the church has to look at this and ask ourselves a separate set of questions. Is our creativity leading us to a point where we can more faithfully point to and glorify the triune God? And at, because that seems to me to be a core expression of what it means to be human. Is that a fair way of sort of putting it? I mean, I think so. And I, I, and there are elements within it that, um, and it's also, I think part of the reason why this is important to continue to have the conversation is that there are elements that you're bringing up there that I think are also essential. Um, and yet it's not like one thing, you know, and that's why I love that we have the father, the son and the spirit. You know, when I think of, like, I was talking to somebody about modalities of education, you know, like, is online bad? And finally I just said, you know what? I said, you know, the God, the father was like long distance learning. It was like, it was like distance education. I said, Christ comes and then it's like, we're sitting in a classroom and now the spirit living inside of us is a whole different way of, of engaging, learning. Uh, and I do think that there's these multitude of components that are being woven together. Um, if we can, if we can frankly, um, engage our what it means to be limited as a human and knowing that that's not an evil thing. Um, and I think that's to me, one of the things I would add is, um, when we think of limitations, we think of incarceration. We, we think of imprisonment, but, but, but the same concept of boundaries is also a womb from which life is, is given. Uh, and, and really it has to do with, um, our, I mean, limitations as a whole is essential, but ultimately it isn't evil. Anything can be evil whenever it's distorted. Yeah. But it doesn't have to be. Yeah. No, it's good. I mean, I, I think we've, I think you're right. I think this has to be an ongoing discussion and I don't think it's a one size fits all answer. I mean, I, I think I, when AI first came out, it was hard not to be more cynical about it than, than maybe I should have been. Right. Because you're, you're seeing this new thing and it has all this potential power and there's all these theories about where it's going to go. And we've all seen, you know, the matrix or a robot or something. Right. And, you know, so you're like, well, you know, but I, I think as I've used it more, as I've researched it more, as I've talked to more people, one of the things I find is that, no, this is just another iteration where what we really need to do is we need to be drilling back into these kind of more authentically theological questions of what does it really mean to be human? If we can't scope that out, I don't know that we're really in a position to judge where AI crosses lines that we don't want to cross. Right. We just don't have it. Now, intuitively, there are some things we're probably going to be able to recognize as bad no matter what. Sure. But, or good no matter what, either way. Mm-hmm. But I don't think that the, the church is going to be in a position to really be discerning without having at least some sort of answer, a vague conceptualization, right, of what it means to be human and what it means to be the church. Yep. And I think to your point, all of those are mixed in together, right? Anthropology, ecclesiology, Christology, pneumatology. Like, we've got all of those things together. And so we've just got to really understand who we are in relation to God and how this technology stuff fits in, I think is, is sort of where my, my head's been at lately. Yeah. And the beautiful thing about being like a theologian slash historian is this isn't the first time we've had to ask

That's right. It's risen to a level where it's like, it's almost ubiquitous. You know, a book you can avoid. It's really difficult to avoid artificial intelligence or digital media in today's world. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. It's in our cars. It doesn't matter what you touch, it's present. And I do think that's where, you know, that's the entrepreneurial business side of it, that we're saturated in a world whether we like it or not. It is what it is. But the question isn't, and that's what I love about this conversation is we're not asking, is AI evil? To me, that's a waste of time. It's a much more valuable conversation to say, who are we as humans, especially in light of who God has made us and how he is remaking us in Christ? That conversation, if we can isolate the answers to at least maybe even a dozen answers to those questions, that's going to equip us far more to engage all, not just AI, but whatever is next and whatever our grandchildren will deal with. And great. If we can generate that focus as a community, we become agile, more agile than anything that progress could throw at us. Yeah, it's funny how the answer always seems to just be discipleship. That's what we need. Like, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, hey, what do we need? Well, we need to learn to observe all Christ commanded, which involves, you know, thinking well about these things, having the theological capacities to discern, not ignoring God's word. Like it all sort of comes back and swirls down to that. And to the extent that we're equipped with those things, we'll be able to answer these questions much more easily. Yep. Equipped and embodied. And I'll use that word on purpose. Well, Shane, man, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you coming on. I enjoyed your article on LinkedIn and sort of thought we'd have a good conversation about this. This has been something I've been interested in over the last year or year and a half or so. Any place where people can go to find out more about you and your work? Yeah, actually, I have a website, ShaneJWood.com, or you can just Google my name. And yeah, I have like hundreds of hours of free lecture on there that I give out and videos they can sign up and watch, and it's all ShaneJWood.com. Cool. OK, I'll make sure we get that in the show notes, ShaneJWood.com, and just encourage everybody to go check it out. Shane, again, is a New Testament professor at Ozark Christian College in Missouri. And so really appreciate you having being on, Shane. Thanks for being here. And I look forward to seeing what you're thinking, you know, as you progress forward and continue on this topic. Thanks, James. I appreciate it. All right, everybody. That's it for today. Thanks for being here, and we will catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care, everybody. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to LifeAudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Hi, friend. Are you stressed, maybe even worried about so many needs around you that you've forgotten you are worth taking care of too? Well, I'm Bonnie Gray, the host of Breathe, the stress-less podcast. I want to invite you to join me as I share practical tips based on science inspired by God's word to help you spark joy and restore God's peace and love to your soul. Subscribe now and go to LifeAudio.com.