Shane Wood | Encountering Christ in Revelation

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined today by a former guest. He's been on before, Dr. Shane J. Wood. He's professor of New Testament at Ozark Christian College. And he's written a new book called Thinning the Veil, Encountering Jesus Christ in the Book of Revelation. And so we're going to be talking about the book. We're going to be talking about Revelation and really sharing Shane's unique perspective on this important book within the New Testament. So Shane, welcome back to the show, man. Hey, man, thanks for having me back. You never know if you're going to get an invite back after one episode. So I appreciate it. No, it's great talking to you. And like I said before, you know, I'm teaching through Revelation with the men's Bible study I run on Wednesday mornings. And so this was a very welcome sort of input for me as I'm starting to go through Revelation with them and really appreciated the book and appreciate our last conversation. So I'm glad you're here. Yeah, thanks. Well, talk a little bit about you do take a unique approach in this book. I found it unique. I think most of the stuff I've read on Revelation focuses one way or another. And I am kind of an academic geek. And so I do read mostly, you know, the academic geek stuff. Right. You know, but tends to focus on, you know, the sort of mapped approach to eschatology. You know, how are the end times going to unfold or they really focus on deeper symbolic issues, you know, connections, the Old Testament, Old Testament allusions, all that kind of stuff. And your approach really does sort of narrow that down a bit. So talk through your approach just a little bit, how you how you're reading Revelation and why you think it's important to read Revelation this way. Yeah, you know, all that wonderful nerd stuff, which I which I also enjoy. I mean, I've I actually did my master's and my PhD dissertation on Revelation. So the nerd stuff really excites me in a certain avenue. But at a certain point, I think it's incumbent incumbent upon us, you know, biblical scholars to to not just unearth the text, but have the text unearth us. And and really, I think that's the bridge of a lot of these conversations to the church is is the biblical text. You know, by God's grace, we get to overhear conversations and they do intersect with our world. It's just not typically in the ways that we reduce it down to in a lot of those debates. You know, you know, trying to ask the question of is Jesus coming back in my lifetime? Well, that might be intriguing for a while. Ultimately, I think the goal of Revelation is bigger than that. And it's it's to allow us to encounter Christ and ultimately an encounter with Christ leads to transformation. And so so that was really the the premise with which I approached this particular writing on Revelation. And when you when you think about some of those other approaches, I mean, when you when you talk about is Christ coming back in our lifetime? Like I've had folks that I've interviewed who, you know, set that date as early as 2030, let's say. Sure, sure. And when you but when you start thinking through those things, when you start trying to really nail it down, in my estimation, it's an impossible task. Like the Bible is not built to give us this specific answer. We we just aren't. It just doesn't reveal to us when Jesus is coming on a specific timeline or calendar date that we can calculate. Am I off base on this or is this like? No, I think that's the consistent actually teaching of the New Testament. You know, Jesus in Matthew 24, 36 even says, you know, about that day or hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, not even the son, only the father. I mean, so so the idea that we're going to be able to crack some code that even Jesus when he was here on earth, A, said he couldn't and B, wasn't didn't really seem interested in that. I think that's what I go back to is when I'm looking through the lens of Christ, especially when it comes about his coming, it's usually when he's speaking about his second coming, he's talking about it's going to happen. Don't predict when it's going to happen. But in light of that, how should you live now? Like that's always the turn is the future is not something we become obsessed over any more than people that are struggling with worry and anxiety should be encouraged to continue to worry. Our struggle with the future is actually a, there the answer is secure. So then how should you live in the present? And so, yeah, from the New Testament, you know, Paul speaking about, about that day or hour, we don't need to write to you because, you know, it's going to come like a thief in first Thessalonians five and revelation carries that same theme. Prediction just, it seems to be too small of a goal for a book like the book of revelation to predict when Christ is coming. But the transformation of the reader that that seems to be more in line with where it's where it's target is. When I think this fits, and I told you before, we wouldn't go through chapter by chapter, but I'm going to start at the beginning because I think one of the surprises for me at the very least was the way that you treated revelation one and this sort of loneliness concept with John being on the Island of Patmos. So I thought that was a really nice unpacking of this and a new wrinkle on something I've read a number of different times. But maybe just describe this idea, the approach you're taking with the revelation of Jesus Christ, John on the Island of Patmos and how you tie loneliness into this. Yeah. So that is, that's where chapter one begins. I think I even call it the casualty of loneliness. I think is the title. And the casualty part's important too, but it does begin with loneliness. Like John is, he's isolated and alone, been exiled by the Roman empire to the Island of Patmos. And therefore he's away from all that's, he's away from all that's familiar. He's away from family. He's away from his normal rhythms of worship. He's away from the cities and the congregations that he loves and that he's pastored. And part of my approach was to say, I don't want to just dissect the words of revelation. I want, I want to try to do what Christ did with us and that's embody it. I mean, whenever I put myself in revelation one, the overwhelming emotion was loneliness. And then it's interesting because then when you trace this John figure throughout revelation, he does, he acts erratic. Like he's, he's bitterly weeping in, in revelation five. He's bowing down and worshiping angels and 19 and in 22. Like he's, he is at his breaking point at a point of desperation. And that's something that frankly in my own life, when loneliness descends, it, it, it tempts me to act in ways that's not exactly who I want to be or who I believe I am in Christ. And so that entry point in fleshes the text in a way where all of a sudden, if Christ does meet John on Patmos, as he does in revelation one, is Christ going to meet John where he's at or is Christ going to bypass the emotions of the human and move onto some, you know, cosmological cartography, this predicting of the future. Do you, do you think, so as I was reading that chapter, one of the things I was thinking is, you know, you move from that chapter into the revelation moves from that chapter into the letters to the seven churches. And obviously part of what's addressed in the letters to the seven churches could be construed as a complacency. It seems like, and you'd correct me if I'm wrong, maybe this is something we should talk about before we go into this, but it doesn't seem like there's this sort of rampant persecution happening. What it seems like is there's a consistent pressure for conformity to the world happening and that there are various Christians who are sort of folding under that pressure versus some that are standing firm in that pressure. And so as, as I read your chapter on loneliness and then kind of went back to the text, one of the things I was thinking of is John sort of becomes this sort of paradigmatic figure that is keenly aware of the urgency of the moment. Like his breaking point is not shared by the church in every respect, but it kind of should be. Sure. No, I think that's very insightful. I, yeah, so, so the situation at the end of the first century has been one that's been debated by scholars quite a bit. And I think it actually comes down to how we define the word persecution. What we do not find at the end of the first century in the, in the Roman records is this edict that has been signed for mass killings of Christians. That doesn't happen until like, you know, a second, third century under, you know, Decius and Diocletian. So we're not, we're not dealing with that, but what we are dealing with is this kind of unique tension that is built under kind of the erratic leadership of Domitian that is uniquely targeting Jewish communities of which Christians would have been considered. So it's not this, you don't, you do not see

This like slander that is coming on them, this, if you do not do or worship how we want you to worship, it will economically impact you. We do know of one physical killing, at least in the seven churches around the end of the first century, and that's in Pergamum with Antipas, which is mentioned there. But you're right, there is this movement, this tension that ultimately tempts us to function in multiple ways. And I even think that it's pretty relevant in 2025, the world that we live in today. There's this unique tension that we don't know what to do with. Typically, what we do with it is we use that tension to predict. And I would say, let's actually stop, and the urgency that you're picking up on is one where John goes, I think what we need to clarify first is a couple of things. First of all, who is the true enemy? Like, I understand it's easy to just go after Rome. He's like, that's too cheap. And then he also says, but clarifying the enemy is one thing, the tactics of the enemy, all that comes with that enemy, but also remembering who God is. And that's why, you know, I really, really hammer on the first five words of the book of Revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ. Like, why did John begin with those first five words? Because ultimately, the clarifying of who Christ is, clarifies not only who God is, but who the enemy is, and then, as a result, how we should respond. But you're right, the churches are not responding to the moment. Yeah. What I think you see that as you go through those letters to the seven churches, Jesus is introducing himself in a slightly different way to each one of these churches. So, I mean, you mentioned Pergamum, that one, you know, he references the sword of his mouth, right? And he's going to come to judge. And so, if you have this interesting situation in Pergamum where it seems like they're allowing an adulterous sect to continue to operate and to teach falsely about the sort of compromises that the Christian community is able to take within the world. It's something around that. I think the reference to Balaam there and all that kind of fun stuff sort of leads that way. And so you have this picture of Jesus and the sword and sort of a, you know, I think the picture of it, at least that I'm thinking through right now, is it's a judicial picture, obviously. He's going to come to judge. He's going to judge the nations. He's going to judge those who are practicing apostasy within the church. But there's a divisiveness of the sword, you know, almost a surgical nature to it that, you know, is going to cut out the, you know, for lack of a better term, cancerous sections and remove those. So, you know, when you think about that, the revelation of Jesus Christ, and then the way he's addressing each of the seven churches in a different way with a different characteristic, it really does seem to flow in this direction that who Jesus is should condition how we are in the world. Absolutely. And I even loved the points you were emphasizing there. There is a unique nuance to every one of the letters to the seven churches. It's not this monolithic, you know, one size fits all command of how to respond to their either lack of urgency or over urgency. Like there's some of these churches, they come across hyper anxious. And Christ is like, listen, listen, I just want you to know you're doing well. It's going to get worse, but you're fine. Like, you know, the poor church of Smyrna is kind of like, I mean, I thank you. Like, I mean, but it's interesting because in the church of Pergamum, you're right. He's looking at them going, why are you tolerating these clear false teachers? However, then you also have Ephesus, who he looks at him and he goes, now, wait a minute. You are murdering all the false teachers, but I actually didn't ask you to do that with my truth either. It's like, where is your love? And so each of them are responding to this tension in the society in frankly, a very predictable way that we can maybe in some sense replicate just by going through our newsfeeds on social media today. Yeah, right. But Christ directly speaks to each of them knowing the contours of their heart, the contours of their struggle. But he's calling them all to a cruciform living, to a living in the shape of the cross itself. What I think it's fascinating, like, you know, I think there is where we started this, where we're talking about these different ways of understanding persecution. I think it's actually really important when people are reading Revelation to understand it in that way. Because if you read it as if there is this edict, as you kind of said before, to kill all the Christians, that's hard to relate to. Yeah. Because we're not there. We have freedoms. We still have religious freedom. And as much as we may think they're being eroded or what have you, like we're not under some sort of censure where we're going to get killed if we proclaim Christ. But I think if we understand it the way we kind of described it as this increasing pressure to conform, to be silent, to compromise, that very much fits the world we live in. And now these messages to the churches have pretty close direct application to what we're doing in today's world. Yeah. And I think that the nuance of persecution is helpful. You know, as a historian, I always know whenever there is a mass killing, that's usually the last resort of an empire. Like violence is a limited commodity. You can't just use it endlessly. It's just like oil. If you overuse the resource, it will actually run out of its capacity. It can't just keep going. So whenever an empire has to move to the point of putting an edict out to kill, it's because there are other tactics of persuading or like you even said, silencing, has not worked. It's kind of like the inverse. It's like people always, they used to believe that if there was no uprising, if there was no revolution, then everybody must have been cool with everything. Everybody was at peace. That's just not true. And uprising is usually the last resort of the oppressed. They're not going to expose themselves to that level of violence unless they have no other, nothing else to grab a hold of. And so, so yeah, if we understand the nuances then of persecution, we can start to understand, A, how Rome is around the Christians in a unique way, but B, also the tactics of Satan, who's the true enemy in Revelation. Yeah. How would you, and I know this is a difficult kind of question. When I look at something like maybe chapters 12 through 14, let's say it occurs throughout Revelation, I think, but 12 through 14 is kind of a nice little chunk we can talk through a little bit. Yeah, definitely. But you tend to see this sort of what I would call messianic mimicry, right? So you've got Christ pictured as something. And so I guess the first question is, when we read Revelation, what would you say is the big sort of picture of Christ? And then how is the enemy situated as a mockery or a mimicry of him? And how do you think that contributes to the overall message of Revelation? Yeah, so the mockery of Christ, which I think also leads into the dominant image of Jesus, not just in Revelation, but in the gospel. We really kind of serve it up on a silver platter for the enemy to mock us. We literally are claiming that the greatest victory when Christ comes into his glory is when he is hanging executed on a cross, which is the most absurd, ludicrous, even Old Testament. You know, you go to Deuteronomy 21 where it's talking about anyone who's hangs on a tree is cursed by God. I mean, there are so many different ways to mock what we have as a central figure of what it means. So in Revelation 5, one of the key moments when Christ is seen as the one that is worthy to open the scrolls in heaven, he's standing on the throne, so sovereignty, looking like a slain lamb. And that's the tension that Revelation keeps in front of us all throughout it, is even if Rome decides to kill you, you win. And that is completely antithetical to, A, human nature and to B, what it is that we would even desire for our families. You know, Revelation has this very difficult call that really plays itself out in chapters 13 especially, but into 14. So then you have this mimicry, this mockery, you know, so chapter 13 where you have this beast that comes out of the sea and it says, you know, oh, and it looks like he has this fatal wound to the head, but then he, you know, he's actually okay, which is this like parody of the resurrection, this. And yet, whenever Christ comes to power, he comes to power with this tender pursuit of everyone, even those that were his enemy. This is Christ on the cross asking for God to forgive those that are actually mocking him at the foot of the cross. However, whenever the beast comes back from his pseudo resurrection, he uses it. He uses this miracle as a way of deceiving and then destroying God's people. So it's the tactics of Christ to bring the truth. Ultimately, you know, it's kind of like the reason why deception works is because 99.9% of the deception is true. It's that 0.1 twist that Satan uses as a way of ultimately, the way I think I describe it is

The deception that leads to destruction, that ultimately the goal is to tempt Christians to then worship the unholy trinity, which is the dragon and the two beasts. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide, or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Do you see in those, and again, I've done probably more study in 12 through 14 than I have elsewhere. And so I'm wondering if you see sort of a convergence of the earthly powers, right? So we're seeing government and false religion, it seems to me, sort of pulling together in 12 through 14. So you have the dragon seeking to slay the woman and her child, chapter 12. Then in 13 and 14, you really do see the beast with the appearance of the mortal wound resurrecting, and now another beast appearing who is going to compel worship of this other beast. And so I'm wondering how you think through that from the perspective of the enemy. You know, you're saying it's like, it's easy to deceive because I agree with you, 99.9% true, right? So it's that additional little percent that can be false and it really skews things. And I do think that's the picture that it's setting up. Part of that is that compulsion, it seems to me. It's this convergence of authorities, we might say, that are trying to, I mean, even just the picture of them as beasts as opposed to one like a son of man, it's sort of interesting, right? The beasts are now trying to exert a sense of dominion over humankind. In this case, the beast being false worship and false authority or authority usurped from God, and the man, the one like the son of man being Christ himself, who actually has dominion. And so, I don't know, just talk through that a little bit and how you see this, not in a conspiracy theory way necessarily, but how should this condition the way maybe that we see the authority structures that are around us? Yeah, no, that's a really important question, not just New Testament, but even Old Testament. I mean, this is Daniel wrestling with Babylon, which is where the image of the beast come from to begin with, Daniel 7, the four beasts that come out of the sea, which is interesting. There is a distinction here, and this is important here in a minute, but in Revelation, you have one come from the sea and then you have one come from the earth. And I think that that evolution of the imagery of Daniel is important because what typically a lot of commentators do is they then reduce down the movements of the two beasts in Revelation 13. They reduce it down to Rome. And I think that's a mistake in Revelation. And part of the reason is, is because of the way that the beast metaphors move throughout the rest of the book. So when we get to 17, you have this prostitute that is astride a beast, but then the prostitute dies and the prostitute is the one that sits on seven hills. It's the one that, you know, I mean, it's like all of these code language that everybody would go, oh, that's Rome, right? You know, the one that rules over all the kings of the earth. And you're like, okay, this is Roma sitting on seven hills, which Rome is founded on seven hills. But at the end of 17, Roma or the Rome, Rome's dead, but the beast continues to live. All of 18 is the funeral for Rome. You know, this Babylon has fallen, but the beast isn't disposed of till 19 and 19, 11 through 21. And then ultimately the dragon 21 through 10. The reason why that's important is because if we reduce down chapters 13 to Rome itself, the beast image is down to Rome. We then think that the primary enemy is the governments around us. What Revelation shows us is that there is behind the veil, there is this unholy trinity that is parodying the Holy Trinity that uses, manifests its will on earth with groups of people that have been persuaded to follow that Trinity, which is why I say in Revelation, worship is the war. It is war. Like who you worship, you become and you fight like them. So whenever the hierarchies that we experience on earth in and of themselves are not evil, but it's ultimately what Trinity that they are bowing themselves down to, or I would even say the actions, the fruit of these hierarchies tells us ultimately what Trinity they've bowed down to. But Revelation makes it very clear, I think also by calling Rome Babylon, it says this, we've seen this before. This is the same unholy Trinity that was functioning in the time of Babylon. It's the same one that we saw in Egypt. It's the same one we saw in Greece. It's the same one. This is history repeating itself. But whenever the veil is thinned, we both can see the machinations of the evil and we can more clearly see how then we fight this true enemy. And that's the shape of the cross. Yeah. So do you see, you know, when you mentioned Daniel and in Daniel, you have this interesting image of Nebuchadnezzar, right? He builds, for one, he sees the dream and he's the golden head, right? And Daniel makes it clear that he's the golden head. And then the next chapter, you see him build an entirely golden statue. And you're like, no, you're just the head, right? But at some point, Nebuchadnezzar actually verbalizes and says, you know, I've done all this myself. This is all me. This is my strength. This is my power. I'm an amazing guy. And then he's driven down like a beast. And so I'm wondering, as we look at some of these things, whether what we should really be watching for is that pride within the authorities. So, you know, I agree with you. I don't think we should be looking at all these authorities that are established as bad. And I think Revelation or Romans 13 speaks against that. But I do think that that what we're always trying to do, maybe even as a Christian church is, is we're trying to keep those authorities humble and help them to recognize the scope of their authority. In other words, try not to eke out of beyond the authority that God has given you and also trying to remain to some degree, humble, recognizing that much of what you accomplish was completely out of your control in the first place. Yeah. Yeah. And that, and that ultimately what Christians are is especially their lives are lived as a testimony that the world actually functions in an inverse economy than what typically the nations honor or perpetuate, you know? So it's this idea that, that you know, what is like, like in Revelation, I believe that it's redefining words that we find significant, especially in conversations about governments, you know, power, what is power? Revelation says power is not what you think it is. You know, so killing your enemy seems like you have all the power, but that was the myth that the cross shattered. It's the myth that Pontius Pilate, a government leader was functioning under whenever he's questioning Jesus and Jesus finally had to go, I need you to understand. You actually don't have power over me. The only reason why I'm here is because I chose to be here. And it's this weird moment where Pontius Pilate has this inversion of power because Christ ultimately was seen beyond the charade. And that's most of what we're dealing with, with, you know, structures of power. It's, it's illusion, you know, it's kind of like whenever I, I have conversations with my students about grades and at the very beginning, I always try to like beg my students to believe I'm actually on your side. Like as a professor, I'm actually on your team. It's not like I have my, you know, little, little treasure trove of A's and I'm keeping them away from as many as I can. I'm like, I want you to get an A. You just have to do the work, right? Like I'm on your team. Then I tell them, I said, here's the thing I hate so much about this system that we're in. I said, our relationship will be altered by what letter I put next to your name. I said, I need you to know I will never remember what letter goes next to your name. I was like, if we meet each other in 10 years down the road, I won't go, oh, you're the one that wrote that paper. I said, there's a part of this that it will actually help us in the educational process if you realize this whole system is an illusion. It's, you've paid money. And so you think that therefore it gives me this level of power, but I actually don't. I don't have that power over you. We can do this together or you can hold it against me. The reason why that's helpful is that once you kind of thin the illusion, you can start to see the...

value in what it is that you're doing. The gift of being in each other's presence, or in some sense, like you're saying, the humility of, yeah, you might be a government leader, but you don't control the world. And that's what Revelation is constantly saying. You don't control the world. So wonderful, you're sitting in that seat for this short period of time, but guess what? Just like every empire and every emperor that has come before you, it's a short shelf life. It ends. And when it does, what's left? And that's ultimately what Revelation is calling us to, is a deeper understanding of power, a deeper understanding of victory, frankly, also a deeper understanding of suffering. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. When we think about that, so that deeper understanding of victory, would it be, critique this summary, I suppose, is what I would say. Victory involves an unwillingness to submit to the illusions of reality and involves truing ourselves to reality as it is. And in this case, reality is particularly the reality of Jesus Christ. And so this is why we have the pictures of the lamb of God slain. This is why we have, you know, sort of the dichotomy of the lamb lion imagery, right? Where Christ is the odd victor. And so he is now the one we are to imitate. And so victory is going to ultimately come simply through obedience. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, is that a fair way to characterize it? Oh, absolutely. You know, Revelation 14.3, if we're going to stay within our section, it describes this 144,000, the ones that have overcome the beast and the dragon. And it says, and they follow the lamb wherever he goes. And I think that's such an undervalued verse. It's wherever the lamb goes, which is the irony of the fact that usually it's the lamb always follows the shepherd, but our good shepherd is the sacrificed lamb. And this is why in Revelation 12.11, to go back just two chapters earlier, it says they conquered the dragon. You know, the Greek word nikao, where we get the English word Nike, they were victorious over the dragon. And then it gives two reasons why or two ways why. By the blood of the lamb. And we typically think, especially like in the Christian world, we think that's it. And he goes, and, and you're like, and by those that refused to shrink from death, by those that followed the lamb wherever he went. Like we overcome the dragon by believing that the path of Golgotha is actually how we win. That the sermon on the Mount is actually describing true reality, not this false reality that you can only get to, you know, if you strain or, you know, a lot of times we even punt the grace and the love of the sermon on the Mount, either to some future idyllic kingdom that's not here, or to after we die. And Revelation goes, no, that's how you live right now. That's how you beat Rome. That's how you conquer the dragon, is by actually believing what Christ said is the true reality and not an illusion. I mean, I don't want to go off on like some sort of crazy tangent, but I feel like I have to ask this question because, you know, this has such implications for how we think about our engagement with culture. I think oftentimes, I've said it multiple times over the course of the podcast, I think I've even written in a book somewhere, but I said, it's not Christians don't have the responsibility for fixing a broken world. We have the responsibility of living faithfully within a world that's so broken only God can fix it. And so what that means is that we just live faithfully, and if that means that some things get fixed, that's awesome. But if it means that our faithful living creates such a friction with the world that eventually we start to feel the heat of persecution and of suffering, that's just part of faithful living. And I don't mean to be trite when I say it, but I think a lot of times what we're trying to do is we're trying to use the world's structures to conform the world to something more moral, which isn't a particularly, you know, when you think about it in terms of Revelation, I'm not sure that's counted as a win. Revelation goes, that's too small of a target. And it's a very tenuous one, and it's one that doesn't even last very long. And we even see this in our own country, like every new president comes in and they almost spend the first hundred days or so just erasing whatever the previous one did. So it's like you get one to act the morality that you desire. Cool, well, in four years that could all go away like that. So you're right, it's a, but you're right, the faithfulness of it is our responsibility. How people respond to that isn't. And that's where I see Christians a lot of the time today, like how we engage culture. They think that we almost have to do it through instigation, through finding the battles. And if we aren't full-throated fighting them, then we're not being faithful to the gospel. To which again, I'm going, my problem is, is I'm just like a first century historian. And I go, the rights and stuff that we have to even fight these debates today didn't exist in the first century. So how were they to be faithful? And the answer is to do the things like loving the least of these, loving your enemy, doing everything that Christ did now becomes a template for you to do. And really, where the enemy gets destroyed is the transformation of evil into good. That is the number one way to destroy the kingdom of Satan, is to transform what was intended for evil into good. And that can happen individually when you forgive the greatest enemies in your story. That can happen collectively whenever people turn the other cheek. It can happen whenever people, instead of mocking panhandlers or speaking down, or actually getting to know them and bringing them into their home. I mean, the problem is, is that we think it's not effective enough of a strategy because we're looking for the pragmatic evidence. But the gospel is like a mustard seed. The kingdom is so small, but when you plant it, it will take over the entire environment. So use your table as a weapon instead of your words or your posts. Use the love of God that casts out all fear so that then you're not governed by the fear that every person that is in some sense that comes your way that is a perceived enemy, you think you have to strike them. You don't. Yeah. No, it's interesting because I mean, you think about it and it's like, there are times when obedience doesn't seem to make any sense at all. And it's that pragmatic outlook. You say, this isn't going to affect anything. And so I should compromise it, right? I should do what's going to be effective. But the reality is, no, you should be obedient even when obedience doesn't appear to make any sense. I would go back to what the Israelites must have been thinking when they were marching around the walls of Jericho. Worst military strategy ever. Right. But they did it and it worked. But you would never sit down and go, okay, guys, here's what we're going to do. We're going to go walk around this wall and then we're going to blow some horns and this sucker's going to come down. It just wouldn't happen. And so they're obeying even when obedience doesn't make any particular sense. And that's such a powerful picture, I think, for us, because that is what you see in Revelation. God is calling the people to suffer, and through suffering comes victory. Right. What a equation. Right. It's like, this is a horrible proposition, but it is what it is. Yeah. It reminds me of, I have a class every semester or every year that I teach that I make the students read the book Rodney Stark's Rise of Christianity. Rodney Stark is a sociologist anthropologist. When he began writing it, he wasn't even like a full-blown Christian, but he had a question that he couldn't figure out. And his question was, how is it possible that in just 200, 250 years that this small Christian group swallowed up the entire Roman Empire, like one of the greatest empires we've ever seen? And he goes through all of these different sociological factors and he comes to this conclusion. They just outloved everybody. Whether it was during the pandemics that wiped out one third of the Roman Empire or whether it was women or whether it was children or whether it was... He just went, they just outloved everyone. And eventually, the love of the Christians, Rome could no longer overcome. Now, it took 250 years and that's a part of the pragmatic efficiency that I think today we get caught up in. What if we loved in a way today that in 200 years, the fruit would actually be produced? A lot of the times we want to be the person that both plants the seed, water the seed, grows it, and then harvests it. That's not even what happened.

Happened with Jesus's ministry. Like whenever Jesus was planting the seeds of the gospel, the end of his ministry, whenever you're talking about his life on earth before the resurrection, was tragedy. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up, and many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide. Or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. It was, arguably, even at the ascension, there's not that many people there. No. You know, so it's not like it's a massively significant group in comparison to the whole Roman Empire. Exactly. And that's the mystery of the gospel. I mean, when you were talking, it made me think of 1 Corinthians 1.18. You know, the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing. But it is the power of God to those that are being saved. Like, it's this, it doesn't have to make sense in order for it to be true. And that's what the cross of Christ reveals to us. It doesn't have to make sense in order for it to be. And that's why Paul goes on and says, like, why does it surprise you that the foolishness of God frustrates the wisest of the wise or the greatest of our intellect? You know, or, to bring up even Romans 12, you know, Paul actually commands us to live at peace with everyone in as much as it is up to you. Which he says exactly what you said, is like, if you're being faithful. What I have found is, now, truthfully, this is wild, because I'm even talking about in churches. I have found that the more I talk about wanting to not kill my enemy and love the poor, people get really upset. And I find that fascinating. Because I'm like, I'm actually saying, like, I don't want to hit you. Right. And people are like, listen, hippie. But for me, I'm going like, this isn't a social agenda in the sense of like some sort of movement from the 60s. This is Christ. Right. And I'm just stupid enough to believe that the cross might actually be more true than my natural tendencies. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so, connecting this in, I mean, essentially, what we've kind of covered is to say, okay, yeah, obey even if obedience doesn't make sense. But then there's this sense of unity. You know, we're talking about being at peace with one another, being at peace with others. And your chapter on the beginning of evil's end is your title. But you talk about the sort of infighting and parasitical nature of some of the stuff of violence. This is, I think, where some of the falsehood, you know, that 99.7%, that's the same, right, that's true, and then the 0.3% that's not, this is where some of that 0.3% starts to rear its ugly head. And I think it's, would you say you think it's pictured this way to contrast with what the ideal Christian community is to look like? Yeah, I think that is definitely the result. I mean, I think also what's happening there, and I believe that was when I'm going over Revelation 17 and 18, I believe. 17, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It also is, it's giving us the anatomy of evil. Like it's like, Revelation goes like, this is the way evil, there is only one end, and I mean that by like, there's only one direction this can go for evil. If evil is discipled in the grammar of violence, and that's how they win all their battles, don't be surprised, though, when they don't know how to give a hug to their comrades. They just don't. Because love is not their native tongue. So eventually, evil's end will always be evil turning on evil. It's the garrison demoniac in Mark chapter 5. Like he is fully possessed by demons. And what do they do with the one that has allowed them into his body? They isolate him in a graveyard where he's cutting himself. Like, because that's what evil, that's the native tongue of evil. That's all that evil knows what to do. So in contrast, what is the native tongue then of Christ or of Christ's followers? It is, it cannot be parasitic. Our relationships are not based off of transaction. They're not based off of what you give me is the only reason why we have any sort of connection. No, actually, it's the inverse. It's how is it that I serve you? This is the antidote to what the disciples were wrestling with in Mark chapter 10, 35 through 45. You know, who is the greatest? And they're fighting, jockeying for the positions of the greatest. And Christ is like, okay, but like, you don't use power like the Gentiles do to backstab the other 10 disciples here, James and John, you know, the writer of Revelation. Like I always kind of, his narrative arc is so fascinating to me because he really is arrogant and kind of a bigot in the gospels. You want me to call down fire on these Samaritans and wipe them out because they're half-breeds? Like, that's John. Right. But then in Revelation 1, it's the same guy that goes, I, John, your brother and your companion in the suffering and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are ours in Jesus Christ. Yeah. Like, what a shift. Yeah. Like where he comes to realize that these grasps of power and these violent dominating of even your own friends is not what Christ did. It's not what Christ calls us to. And it completely inverts the trajectory of where John was going when he was a young, you know, son of thunder. Yeah, yeah. It's really interesting. I think it's compelling to notice that, I like the way you put it, it's not their grammar. It's not their native tongue. You know, it's not evil's native tongue to speak of love. It is evil's native tongue to sort of backbite, turn on one another, not exhibit, you know, you almost have the anti-fruits of the spirit here, right? No self-control. Right, no self-control. You're going to get discord. You're going to have, you know, mean-spirited conversations. And that that becomes this sort of beginning of the end for evil, that they can't hold this together when they start to recognize that they're losing, when they start to recognize that they're losing power one or another, you know, player within this sort of evil realm. When they start to recognize that, they don't conform their ways. They double down and end up with this sort of infighting and frustration and difficulty that only makes them go down faster. Yeah. It's a really, I don't want to say it's a comical portrayal in the sense that it's funny, but I think it is sort of an ironic, maybe a cautionary tale to sit back and say, look, this is what comes of this way of life. This is where it ultimately leads. Whereas now we're going to see in like Revelation 21 and 22, where the way of Christ leads. And maybe we can kind of, we're getting toward the end. Maybe we can talk about that at the ending of Revelation. What does that picture of the, of, you know, life in the presence of God really convey at the end of Revelation? No, it is Revelation 21 and 22 is all about, like you just described, the inverse of evil's end, because the end in God is union. It's union with each other. Matter of fact, I don't think I do this in the book, but I teach this in one of my classes is that what you see in Revelation 21 and 22 is there are four relationships in Eden that were shattered by sin. The relationship with humanity and God, the relationship with humanity and themselves, the relationship between humanity and humanity, our societies, that's gone. But then you see this beautiful picture in chapter 22, where the tree of life that we've been kept from for 66 books in the canon is now present, but it's the leaves of the tree for the healing of the nations. Like creation is once again serving God and God's creation in a different way than just getting us from one meal to the next. Revelation 21 and 22 is about union, the coming together of, not in a way, and this is the thing that I find so important and fascinating, is that when sin…

When it comes together with anything, there is always a war of which one's going to win. It is the inverse of what we see in the Trinity, this incredible union where there is no competition. There's actually mutual enhancement through mutual service. And so the Trinity itself unveils the inverse of evil, but ultimately, it's the picture that's painted for us when we come to Revelation 21 and 22, the new heavens and the new earth. It is this Trinity-like union in which when we come together, it's not through competition or war. We come together in a mutual enhancing, mutual self-serving, or mutual serving of the other through ourselves. Just like Christ did, like a Philippians 2 moment. Yeah, yeah. There's something to, and I'm not going to be able to pull the passage up right in my mind, but I was talking with this Bible study that I do on Wednesdays, and they were asking me about God and evil, and we were kind of going over some of those sorts of things. And I said, There's just something about suffering when you read it in the Old and the New Testaments that you begin to realize that part of the reason, part of the rationale for suffering, is that by the time we get to heaven, I don't remember what the question was, it was, How do we know we won't sin in heaven? That was sort of it. And I said, It's because we've suffered through faithfulness on earth. Like we're coming into a new context. When we get to the new heavens and the new earth in Revelation 21 and 22, we're going to have a really strong polarized understanding of how horrible life is when we're not in union with God, when we're not seated under his authority, when we're not in relationship with him. And that comes about because we're constantly suffering and being tested and experiencing the pain of this disjuncture you're talking about, right? God, humanity, humanity to ourselves, humanity to humanity, and then humanity to creation. Like when those things aren't appropriately ordered and aligned and we're not, you know, sort of in union with one another, we experience a great deal of pain and suffering and evil. And, you know, you name it. As we enter this new world, we're going to recognize it as so much better than the alternative that any inclination, I think, you know, forget, you know, supernatural sanctification and those kind of things, which I'm sure we'll play a part too. But it's almost like I think we will have just learned our lesson. Yeah. We're going to come through this and we're just going to know. Absolutely. And ultimately, what you are doing there, and I love it, is you're actually redefining, though, even what sin is. Like at its core, sin is the grammar of death. When you are united with death, sin is your natural grammar. And so everything that comes into that, the antitheses of all the fruits of the Spirit is the grammar of death. So what you're describing is, but when we are in heaven, we are united with God, we now are speaking the grammar of Christ. We're speaking the grammar of life and therefore learning a new native tongue. We become fluent then in cruciform living. And so even things like suffering or loneliness. And this was ultimately where I come to that conclusion in chapter one of the book is, I started to realize by looking at the saints of old that loneliness in Christ is a conduit for intimacy with God. It's this entry point to intimacy, which doesn't make any sense unless I reflect on the Garden of Gethsemane, unless I realize that everything that sin has accomplished, death has accomplished, Christ has ultimately repurposed for union with him. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. In my last conversation, and maybe we can close with this, but our last conversation, we talked a little bit about technology. Yeah. Right. And I know there's, you know, as technology is ramped up, as we've had social networks, we're seeing an epidemic of loneliness. We're seeing loneliness actually increase because the connections just aren't real enough to actually get us there. But if you think about what you just said that we need to be lonely and alone in order to have these encounters with God, they're a conduit for that. Our world right now is not conducive for the sort of loneliness that I think could be a conduit for God because we're constantly seeking out some other connection, even within our loneliness. We're trying to find something else to connect with as opposed to being lonely and desperate, like you described John in chapter one, and the only thing when we reach out to find is God. We're just not there as a society right now. We're not there as a people. No. You have thoughts on that? No, I think you're right. I think a lot of the times our loneliness is predicated or even created through our obsession with distraction or through numbing. And so loneliness is a byproduct of our erratic graspings of meaning. And so instead of stopping and asking the question, is our method going to lead to the ultimate result we crave, we continue to double and triple down on the method. No, just distract more, just find different ways. And ultimately it will. It'll have its end. And you're already seeing this. You're seeing the generation that's coming up right now is fascinating because they have been immersed in technology. They're not, even though they're more savvy in it, a lot than my generation, they're not as obsessed with it as I thought they were going to be. As a matter of fact, a lot of them are like, No, I'm fasting this week. Oh, a whole week? Oh, yeah, I have no screens and stuff. And I'm like, Oh, wow, that's a, I've never, growing up, that wasn't any type of fasting we did. And I was like, but you usually are fasting from things that you realize are distracting you from what matters most. It's almost like native to them that they know too much technology leads to, how do I want to say that? Too much technology leads to like an obese soul where it is one that is being stuffed with too much that's not nourishing it. And I do, so I do think that again, evil does this to itself all the time. It has this ravenous appetite to just do more and more and more of the same, but eventually it turns back on itself. And so I, I am actually thinking where I'm sensing what's happening is, is that the AI stuff especially is kind of taking what has always been an illusion and making it a very clear illusion that we all are in on now. And I think, I think it's actually going to hurt evil's cause long-term. I really do. I think it's an overreach where if they would have just kind of, you know, played the game of illusion a little bit better, they could have kept this maybe in the malaise a little bit longer, but I think we're going to see a slingshot effect. Yeah. That's my tendency too. I think I had a conversation with a sociologist on the program a few episodes ago, and her comment was pretty much the same as yours. Your observation that the younger generation, she said, they have a keener sense of how this isn't working for them. And thus they're stepping away from it a little bit quicker. And yeah, it made me think of this, something my youngest says to me a lot of times. He's like, Dad, we just need to go touch grass. I'm like, what does that mean? He's like, it means we need to go outside and have our feet touch the grass. And I'm like, so it's even made its way into the slang. This is awesome. It's so weird. I mean, I think in my kids when I had my daughters particularly, but also my son, we always did stuff together. We're a pretty active family. And so, you know, I had them out running Spartan races and lifting weights and, you know, that kind of thing. I'm not exactly an outdoorsman, but you know, you throw something heavy in front of me, I'll lift it. And so, you know, I have my kids in the weight room. So we, we didn't have a lot of screen time problems, so to speak. We didn't eliminate them, but we always had other things they were doing. And so it's, it's interesting for me to look out at the rest of the culture and kind of go, okay, this is really a problem, but it seems to be sort of eating itself, right? The sort of serpent is eating itself at this point. Absolutely. Which is, which again, goes back to just, you know, stuff we've talked about. Like technology isn't actually the issue. It's, it's the craving within the human united to death that, that grabs a hold of technology. That's the issue. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's part of a, sorry, go ahead. No, I was just going to say to reduce the enemy down to technology is just like reducing the enemy down to Rome. Like it's just too small. Yeah. It's one of McLuhan talks about those four laws of medium. One of them is, you know, what does this, what does this technology enhance? And I think sometimes we answer that question with, well, it enhances our ability to communicate. And it's like, well, but when we communicate, it's not always nice. That's exactly right. We're enhancing both. Like it always has this sort of projection of sin. And I think those are the things that we need to, you know, guard ourselves against as we expand this. But anyway, Paul, this, this has been great. I love the book. Thank you. Thinning the veil. And IVP is always nice enough. They give us a 20% discount code for anybody who's listening. So that'll be in the show description. So you can get thinning the veil. If

really recommend it. This was a great conversation, bro. I really appreciate your approach to revelation and just the sobriety you bring to it, but also the personal touch and the real application you bring to it. I think it's fantastic. So thanks for being on again, man. Yeah, thanks for having me, James. Appreciate it, bud. Absolutely. Everybody check out Thinning the Veil, and we will catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care, everybody. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Are you seeking to deepen your faith and embrace your identity in Christ? Then tune in to the Bought and Beloved Christian podcast hosted by me, Kirby Kelly. Join me each week as we dive into God's word, explore its truths, and learn how to live out our faith boldly. Whether you're new to the faith or looking to grow closer to God, the Bought and Beloved podcast offers insightful discussions, heartfelt encouragement, and practical advice for your spiritual journey. Subscribe now on your favorite podcast platform and let's walk this faith journey together here on the Bought and Beloved podcast.