Thinking about the Awkward Conversation of Prayer: A Conversation with John Koessler

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm James Spencer, and I'm joined today by a friend and colleague, John Kessler, who's a retired faculty emeritus from Moody Bible Institute. He was the actual chair of the Pastoral Studies Department for a number of years. He's also an award-winning writer and podcaster and author of the book When God is Silent, which we're going to talk a lot about today. So, John, welcome. It's great to have you, man. Hi, James. Good to be with you. Yeah, it's been a long, long time. I think it's probably been three years since we actually had a conversation. So I keep up with you on social media, and I kind of see the stuff you're putting out, and it's awesome to reconnect. Yeah, same here. You're still lifting weights, and you feel small. That's important. That's the whole point. It needs to be. I need to bully people and make sure that they're intimidated when they look at me. It's working. So you've been retired now for a few years. You've been writing some stuff, and one of the new books is When God is Silent, Let the Bible Teach You to Pray. And so what led you to that topic? Well, all my books are sort of self-therapy, you know. I end up writing about what I'm either thinking about, wrestling with. And I have always wrestled with prayer, and after a number of years, I actually, for a lot of years, I said, I said I would never write a book on prayer because I feel like such an amateur. In fact, the working title for the book, which I really liked better than the one the publisher gave, was Awkward Conversations. Because that's kind of how prayer always feels to me. It's like this awkward conversation with God for reasons we'll probably talk about. But then after I thought about it, it occurred to me that most of the books about prayer that I see, they make assumptions about the reader. In fact, I read C.S. Lewis talk about this where he said that most of the books about prayer that he'd read, he felt made the wrong assumptions about him. And that's kind of how I felt. And so I thought, well, you know, maybe what we really need is a book about prayer by somebody who feels like most of the people I know, which is they don't feel like they're good at it, you know. So really, I thought, you know, we need a book prayer for amateurs written by amateurs. And so that's where it came from. And so I started a blog about it, and then I thought, I'm going to take a stab at writing a book about it. Well, I like the awkward conversations angle because, I mean, when I when I started reading through your book and I hit that sort of conversation, you mentioned C.S. Lewis sort of in the introduction and then talk about the awkward conversations a little bit later. But when I first hit that awkward conversations sort of phrase, all I was thinking was, yeah, God never talks back. Yeah, that's it. That's totally it. Right. It feels like a monologue almost. It is a monologue, honestly. And I know this is where people I know who when they talk about their prayer experience, you know, they they talk about it like it's, yeah, oh, you know, I was talking to God and then he said this and he said that. And it's very, you know, maybe that's been their experience, but it has not been my experience. And I realized after thinking about it for really several years that that was one of the major struggles is that I went into the whole prayer experience assuming that it's just like every other conversation I've ever had. And like, what's so hard about talking? You know, I talk all the time. I've been talking since I was a kid. And so why is it so hard to talk to God? And then when I gave that some thought, it dawned on me, well, it's because, first of all, he doesn't talk back and all of the cues that I usually rely on for getting a sense of how the conversation is going, whether I'm coming across facial expression, body language, you know, the pitch, all of those things, they're absent. So the way that it feels to me, and I know this is a point of faith, that the fact that I feel this way doesn't negate the reality of what's taking place. But the way it feels when I'm in the midst of it is that it's just going up into the air. You know, it's just going out into the ether. And so it reminded me of conversations that, you know, I used to have with my wife Jane when we were first dating back in the old days before you had like cell phones or, you know, I'd be working. I'd go to the pay phone. I'd call her up. And inevitably, like, I would hate the experience because I couldn't tell, this is when we were dating, I couldn't tell if she was glad to hear from me, you know, because it'd be like this silence on the other end. It's like, well, okay, you know. Do you like me? And so you'd get more and more anxious. I'd get more and more anxious, you know. Right. Inevitably, things would go south. That's the way I feel when I talk to God. I probably shouldn't say this because I'm going to lose, you know. Why should I listen to him? But it's true. No, I mean, I think, you know, I've talked about my experience with prayer and how I ultimately, you know, tried to develop my prayer life. And one of the things I've talked about is just I was always better at the reading and the research. Like I was always better at the scholarly aspect. And so what I decided to do was stop trying to, you know, just sit down and pray in my head or even pray out loud, just extemporaneous sort of, hey, let me have a conversation with God. And instead, I started buying books that had written prayers in them and praying through those. Then I'd start writing my own prayers out, like being fairly meticulous and doing it that way. And it did get a little easier and easier for me to understand the cadence of prayer and to get in my own head about it. But I think that's, you know, I've also said that's fairly unique to people who have that propensity anyway. Right. It's sort of leaning into a strength. Right. There's a reason I don't do yoga. Right. For instance. Right. And so I think that that really did help me. But I still had the same sort of an experience. It's a very difficult thing for me not to get an immediate response in that feedback. It's part of the reason I don't like preaching. You and I have had this conversation in the past. I much prefer standing in front of the classroom and interacting than I ever have felt comfortable actually preaching a sermon because you're just looking out at maybe other people don't have this experience, but it's usually blank faces for me, you know. That's fairly common. That kid's sleeping. And then, you know, I was like, what am I doing wrong? But that's sort of that same dynamic that I felt in prayer. So, I mean, I really resonated with your experience with this and maybe we're just unfortunately two peas in a pod on this issue. You know, people may conclude that. I'm sure there are people who look at that and say, well, what's the problem is that you guys are just unspiritual. Right. What's wrong with these guys? The thing that encourages me in my struggle with it, though, is that most, pretty much everybody I know, with a couple of exceptions, feels funny about prayer. They believe in it. They practice it all the time. They just don't feel good at it. And that's, I think, the issue with it. And, you know, a couple of things that you're saying there, I think, are really important. One is that there is this personal personality dimension, which is, you know, I think that's true in all relationships. And it's true in our relationship with God. And it's not something that is given much credence in the way that spiritual leaders talk about the Christian life. You kind of get the sense that, like, there's this set pattern for everybody, one size fits all. And not even to mention the whole list of, like, what Christians are supposed to be like. There's no real allowance made for this. Like, for example, you know, maybe there's been a lot of emphasis on this in social media in some circles. But, like, you know, I feel the whole culture of Christian worship and church life assumes an extroverted personality. And even the model of what a really mature Christian looks like, you know, that's, you know, that's the person who could go out in a crowd and, you know, winsome and, like, lead everybody to Christ. And

And we're just comfortable with people, you know, and you know, I'm, you know, I'm the guy who, like, I'm walking down the street and here comes a stranger and my natural response is, I'm gonna cross over to the other side so I don't have to talk to you, you know, because I just feel, I'm, you know, the word is shy, and, you know, I just feel, so I think those same, there are some issues in terms of the way we relate to God that it's, it is not the same for every person. And I think that's true in prayer life. You know, my wife, Jane, she's really the best prayer that I know. And although she would tell you, she, she would say, oh, I'm no good at it, but when I look at it from a distance, you know, when I watch it, I just really admire it. And she's, she's, she's intentional about it, thoughtful about it. She has a list of people that she's been praying for for pretty much as long as I've known her. I'm not like that at all. I'm, I am like a, you know, a train wreck in terms of like disorganized. It is, to me, uh, very extemporaneous. You know what I mean? It's, uh, the way that I operate is, uh, in terms of my personality, it's like I have this ongoing relationship with God who is always there. Like He's always, He dwells in me through the person of the Holy Spirit and He's omnipresent, so He's always in the room, you know? And therefore, you know, it's a kind of a thing like, oh, you know, let's, don't you agree? You know what I mean? Right, you know it all anyway. So. Yeah, another person that wouldn't, that would not work, you know, that what you're describing there, that's the other thing is, you know, when you're describing this uh uh pattern, you know, where you're, you're thoughtful about it, you're writing it out, you're using the words of other people to help, help you express what you want to express to God. There is a long, long tradition of that in the history, not only in the church, but in the history of God's people. You have a whole book about it, you know, the book of Psalms. So, um, you know, that's, that's, but, but I think a lot of Christians, there are a lot of Christians who feel a little nervous about that too. They say, well, you know, these written prayers, you know, you know, number one, they're like old, you know, they've got to be fresh. You got to wade through them. They're not my words, you know, so I mean, is that plagiarism, but, but no, here's, you know, here is a vocabulary, and that's one of the things that the Bible is great about and the recorded prayers of the Bible. It gives us a vocabulary of prayer that we might not have so that somebody else could say it and it's like, yes, that's exactly how I feel and what I want to say. Because that is one of the things I've found in terms of my own prayer life. It's like my, my prayers are so boring, you know, and it's like, bless, bless so and so, bless so and so, bless so and so. And sometimes when I look at the words of others, um, It, it just catches me up short, you know, and it's like, wow, yeah, that's exactly what I, what is in my heart. I want to say it that way. So that's a great practice. And, and I think there is something to that. I personally spend probably more time alone than, than I'd like to admit. I work from home, you know, my wife goes off to work. My kids are in school. Like I'm, I'm basically in the house by myself except for a dog and a couple of cats, right? So I don't have a lot of human interaction. So for me, that reading is, is actually helpful. It, it, it spurs different thinking than I would otherwise have. But when I have opportunity to pray in a group, I also find that oddly helpful. Although I don't particularly like to verbalize in the group. I'm still sort of processing what I would say if I were to say something by the time the prayer is over. You know? Yeah, it's a very, um, for me, I, I don't know, I don't want to say I get stuck in my own head, but I definitely am not as Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579 Free with my words when I'm praying. It's almost, it's not like I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing. It's just, I'm really trying to construct what I want to say and say it well. And maybe that's just sort of a problem with being, you know, a rehabilitated academic or writer or whatever it is, you know, I mean, you write a lot too. And so there's, there is a sense in which there's a care that we take with our words when we put them down on paper that I think for me at least, it sort of backtracked into the way I think about my prayer life. There is a, there, I think there is a personality dimension to it that we are contemplative or internal processors or, you know, there's some of us are like that. And, and that's inevitably going to be reflected in the experience of prayer. And it is one of those, it's a double edged sword on the one, on the one hand, you know, it helps me in the, when I am praying, when it comes to those experiences where I'm going to pray out loud and maybe I'm in a group or I'm praying with another person, you know, I, I have a habit of processing words. And so I naturally bring that to prayer when I'm talking to God. He doesn't need it. He doesn't need me to speak clearly in order to, for him to understand me, but it helps me to be able to do that, you know, so, but the double, the other side of it is that when I'm, it is one of the things that can make, it's one of those things that can create problems. When I am listening, I'm in a context where other people are praying and they're not, it's not their bent, you know, that in terms of the way they process words. And so, you know, I'm like, ah, you know, how many times are you gonna say, you know, Lord Jesus or that, that, which, which is my weakness, not theirs. You know, again, there, if they're, if they are attempting to speak their heart to God, God, God sees through whatever the imperfections are in the words that come out and he knows what they're trying to say and he welcomes it. You know, that's, but this, I do think that in our Protestant tradition, those of us who, particularly those of us who come out of low church tradition, you know, so in my, my background, uh, I, one of the things I realized is my experience of prayer, the way I thought of it, well, it is primarily in this internal experience, not so much, not so much a congregational practice, which there are Christian traditions where that's part and parcel of it. And that was one of the things that I noticed when I was working through the book is how even in scripture, you know, when you look at the framework of the Lord's prayer, the way the Lord's prayer is worded implies collective praying of that prayer. Whereas my default was, oh yeah, this is this, you know, this is a, first of all, my default was, well, this is a person, Jesus is telling every individual, here's a prayer you can pray. But actually, in my tradition, it was, well, you know, you don't actually pray that out loud. That's just sort of your template. And then you just take it and You just take it and yeah, right, you know, but, but that, uh, actually it seemed that when Jesus is handing it down to the church, his assumption is, well, you're gonna, you're gonna pray these words together, you know, our Father, give us this day. So, um, there, there is this wonderful tradition in many circles of the church where I have, I am ushered into the life of prayer by life in the congregation with words that have been curated, you know, that, that help me to gain a vocabulary for prayer. Now that can also go south, you know, that can be.

Just dead. It can become dead. It can become so habitual that I'm just blah, blah, blah. I'm saying the words. I'm not thinking about the words. But I think ideally, it is really meant to help me to learn to express myself to God for my sake, not for his sake. I want to keep emphasizing that. It's not like, well, you know, if your vocabulary is too small and your grammar's bad and you don't get the formula right and say, you know, phrase, then sorry. You know, it's like, yeah, we've had internet experiences like that when we're online, you know, communicating and we didn't put the data in right and the whole thing shut down. Prayer isn't like that. Yeah. Let me ask you, I'll give you kind of a curveball question, and let me try to set this up because I was talking about prayer with a class I was teaching, or not prayer, fasting, when I was talking to a class that I was teaching here pretty recently. And one of the things we discussed was the modern sort of cadence of life that tends to disrupt fasting. So if you think about the time that you would have gained fasting in, let's say, Jesus' day, you no longer have the food preparation time, which was significantly longer back then. You also are not eating, right? There's this span of time that probably you gained back by deciding to fast because just getting food to the table was a more arduous process than we usually experience today. And as I was thinking about why prayer is awkward, I'm wondering if you gave any thought or have any ideas about how our sort of efficient society, right, where we can have a lot of things just right there at our fingertips and, you know, our daily bread is fairly easy to get, whether that's maybe a potential reason or an underlying factor that prayer seems awkward. I'm trying to make the move from fasting to prayer. You know, the dynamics in that, I mean, I see the point you're making in terms of the accessibility of food and the preparation time. I'm trying to think about what the parallel is, consider what the parallel is in prayer when it comes to prayer. So maybe think of it like this. In the Lord's Prayer, when we're praying for our daily bread, if my cupboard's already stocked, why would I ever pray for that? You know, there's this sense in which I think there's just a stronger false, probably, sense of self-sufficiency that makes prayer seem less necessary. Yes, we are less aware, and this, I've qualified this because I think there are many places in the world and many people who are in circumstances that are desperate every day. You know, there are still plenty of people today who don't know where the next meal is going to come from. And that's in that petition in the Lord's Prayer, give us this day our daily bread. That is the assumption. The assumption about his audience is they don't know where the next meal is going to come from. And every day they need to look to God to provide it for them. Now, every one of us is still in that position whether we recognize it or not. I think also when Jesus is teaching us to pray about our sins, you know, forgive us our debts, you know, this is a culture, he is teaching that prayer into a culture that's highly sensitized to the reality of sin and the problem of it. That's not so true for us today, even in the church, where we really, you know, we've come to terms with the fact that we're sinners, most of us. You know, we don't agonize about it. We aren't really all that stressed about it. That's why a lot of the preaching and even the praying that you hear today are more impinge on sort of the softer side of things, you know, psychological well-being or things like that. So, and of course, again, the problem, just like the problem with food, is that our situation is really no less desperate than those to whom Jesus was first teaching that prayer. So I do think that there is a kind of a false sense of security, fullness, a sense that we don't, we really don't need to pray as much as maybe other generations did because like what's there to pray about? And that is why often you see in our lives, it changes when we come into circumstances that remind us of our fragility. So you, I remember, you know, I remember a number of years ago, you know, going to the doctor for what was a routine checkup and, you know, the next thing I know, he's diagnosing me with a form of cancer. And like, it was completely disorienting to me, you know? And all of a sudden, and I can remember in the first few, for some time after that, there was a part of me that said, oh, I just wish I hadn't gone to that appointment. You know, I wish it was the day before that appointment when I didn't, well, the reality was you had that problem the day before the appointment when you felt you weren't worried about it, and now you're aware of it. That's kind of our situation. And that's one of the functions of the Lord's Prayer, actually, is to remind us of the reality, is to shape reality for us. I'm trying to think of this quote. You like Stanley Hauerwas, and this is one of his quotes that I often go back to where he talks about the need for us to look to Scripture to enable us to attend to reality, to train our thinking so that we can bring our experience in line with reality, which is really, I thought it was an amazing way to put it, and so true that that is what biblical truth does. Because I'm often living in this realm of, really frankly, denial about things, and biblical truth helps me to see things the way they really are. Or I have, and this is when it comes to prayer, one of the things I really discovered the more I thought about prayer is how impoverished my view of prayer is, both the riches of the practice and the reality of what's going on. You know, when you think of the full picture of prayer, what's happening when I'm praying? Well, in my impoverished view, it's like, I'm just talking, you know, I'm just talking. And God is out there, and I'm trusting that he's listening, and that's about it. In reality, I am entering into the reality of God's presence. And in fact, Scripture tells me that when I'm praying, Paul talks about praying all kinds of prayers in the Spirit. So first of all, apparently there's a much richer tradition of praying than I'm aware of, that there's this kind of prayer and this kind of prayer and this kind of prayer. And when I'm praying, I am not praying alone. I am praying in the Spirit. I am praying through the Spirit. So he is mediating my prayers for me. I come into God's presence and the Spirit is helping me to pray. And also, Paul says elsewhere that the Spirit prays for me. He also tells me that Christ prays for me. Now, all of a sudden, I realize, you know, what am I engaging in when I engage in this act of prayer? I'm engaging in the spiritual interaction that involves the entire Godhead because the Father is listening. Christ is praying for me. The Holy Spirit is helping me to say what I want to say. That's a much richer picture than what I'm feeling in my experience, which often is just... Right. Here we go. I got to have this conversation. Yeah, right. And I think that's a beautiful picture of it. And I...

Yes, you know, as I was reading your book, one of the chapters that really hit me, and I've had a couple of conversations with guests on the show previously about Lament, and so your chapter on managing your angry prayers, I think, connects a little bit with at least my experience of what you're saying. There's a part of me that when I am trying to think through, okay, yeah, the Spirit's interceding for me. He's empowering me to do this. He's saying the things that I don't even understand. I should be saying Christ is praying for me. The Father is listening. You're participating in this wonderful scope of God's presence when you're praying, but oftentimes I feel that I'm being too controlled in my prayers. You know, I'm being too sanitary, maybe, just, you know, and sort of trying to retain a level of self-sufficiency and manage my vulnerability when I'm praying, as opposed to recognizing that prayer in and of itself is an act of dependence. You don't pray to, you know, you don't pray to something that can't help you. You don't pray to something you're not dependent on, and you certainly don't pray to something that you know is never going to help you. And so it's not that prayer is all about getting help, but there is, I think, a vulnerability and an openness you have to have with prayer, and I often feel, especially when I think about anger and Lament and those kind of things, that those are practices that we have largely lost in the church. It's, well, I want to answer your question, but I want to go back and say, when you say we don't pray to those kinds of things, actually, we do pray to those kinds, you know, we pray, that's called idolatry. That's the essence of idolatry, right? You pray to something that doesn't hear you and can't help you, and we are idolaters by nature. That is one of the problems we wrestle with when it comes to prayer, is that it is our nature to go to the wrong place for help. And I think that, and I also think that it is also part of our nature, part of the innate struggle when it comes to prayer, is that we are inclined toward presenting the face to God that we think he wants to see. Right. So that, and that's part of the, I think, the control you're describing there, that I want to come in there, you know, I want to have a good disposition. And so, for example, when I'm really angry and what if I'm really angry with, what if God's the one I'm angry with, you know, like Jonah to me is the case in point there, you know, where Jonah, Jonah is furious with God. I mean, he's not just like, you know, ticked off the way we say. He is absolutely furious with God and he is so angry with God, you might as well just kill me, God, is his prayer. Right. And God comes to him actually more than once and says, do you do right to be, is it right for you to be angry, Jonah? And of course, the crux of the matter is, number one, God doesn't, actually, it's not what we think. We think that the Jonah story is God doesn't do what Jonah thinks he's going to do. He knows exactly what God is going to do. He knew what God was going to do before he went to, before he was forced to go to Nineveh. That's why he didn't want to go in the first place. He is angry with God because he knows what God is going to do. He knows what God is like and he's angry because these people that are being shown grace by God, they don't deserve it. You know, and so he's got a case, you know, he's got, it's a justice issue, right? We hear a lot about justice today and well, Jonah is a justice warrior and he's petulant. That's what it makes, that's what it does to him. It makes him mean-spirited and petulant. And so, you know, and so God, and I, as I love Jonah, I think because I, because I identify, you know, just with his bad behavior, you know, God comes to Jonah and says, do you do right to be angry? And Jonah, Jonah is not like Job, right? When Job is confronted with God, he like throws his hands over his face and says, you know, I'm not going to say another word. I spoke and I, Jonah's like, yes, I do. I do. I do. I am justified to be angry, so angry you should just kill me. You know, so one of the things that most of us are not that frank, you know, and let me also say, let's also be clear, Jonah was wrong. It wasn't a case where God says, oh yeah, you know, Jonah, you're, you're right. In fact, the thing that's amazing about the Jonah story is there's no end to it. He just, God just leaves him there in his anger and you don't actually know in the way the narrative rolls out what happens next, whether Jonah comes out of it or whether he dies there, you know, so, but what do you do when you're as angry with, what do you do? This is what it makes, this is what really makes me ponder it. What do you do when you are as angry as Jonah and you know your anger is wrong and now you're trying to talk to God? What do you do, right? And our natural response then is to say, you know, oh God, you put on the, you put on the mask, you know, and you tell God what you think God wants to hear. Well, if you, when you read through the Psalms, what you find is the Psalmists, they are so, they also express their anger with, about their own situation or even their frustration with God. They are so blunt. They are so frank that if we prayed that way in church, it would be embarrassing. So the lesson for me in that is that prayers of Lament and the example of imprecatory prayers, one of the things they teach me is that there is no emotion within me that I cannot express in the presence of God. And in fact, if I'm going to work through these things, I need to. I can't, it really doesn't help me if I am dealing with the reality of that anger or the bitterness I feel toward another person that's so strong. I want to kill them or if I, if I don't want to kill them, I'm so bitter toward them, I want them to fail. You know, I mean, actually a lot of us are in relationships like that, um, or maybe again, maybe it's just you and me, but, um, you know, where else are you going to go to process that? If you can't take it to God, you know, you can, you can go to the counselor with it. And, and you know what, that's, I'm not, I'm not denigrating that, but I can tell you what the counselor, the counselor is going to say, well, tell me how you feel. And then they're going to wait for you to figure it out, you know? So, and sometimes you need that. Sometimes you need that. But if I go to God with it, I can also tell God how I feel and he's greater than me. He can help me with it. He can help me to process it. He can bring me to a different place. Now I'm not saying, okay, so just, you know, when you're angry, it's like, tell God you're angry and poof, it'll go away. It, it will not go away. You know, in some cases we deal with these issues our whole lives. And the only real point of, of uh deliverance is eternity, you know, but as I'm moving through this pilgrim life, I at least can go to God with it. The other thing I want to say about imprecatory prayers is, um, and it's disturbing to me, is, is that in this polarized age where everybody is angry at somebody and, um, you know, everybody is pretty sure that the other person is stupid, you know, the people we don't agree with. Uh, the church has rediscovered imprecatory praying. And, and, and so not long ago, you know, I was, I was in a church and basically the, the, you know, the preacher was kind of saying, you know, here's, here's, you know, this imprecatory prayer. And my wife told me a while back when I was talking about, you need to tell people what imprecatory means because we talk about like, oh yeah, imprecatory. Everybody. I think I went to a doctor about that once before. It means it's a curse calling down curses, you know, and, and there are, there are not many, but there are a few prayers you find in scripture, not, not just in the Old Testament. You can find them, for example, in the book of Revelation. Revelation. Yeah. They're like, wait, you know, well, so, so basically this was a, this, this.

The sermon was in an era where there was a lot of political controversy. And in that sense, you know, this pastor was saying, yeah, this is the way you should be praying for these government leaders you don't agree with. And I was very disturbed by that. I don't think, I think that imprecatory prayers help me to be honest about the reality of those emotions that I'm afraid to acknowledge and allow me to express that to God. I don't think they're models. I really don't think that God is calling, what he teaches us. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 948-78 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide, or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 948-78 or call 888-958-6579. Is there for, you know, these Republicans, these Democrats, you know, they're whoever, whichever side you're on, dash their children against the stones, you know. Right. You know, I think Jesus, in the Lord's Prayer and in his own example on the cross, when he is praying for the forgiveness of those who are in the process of putting him to death, it shows us where, where we want to be in terms of praying for our enemies. That, but imprecatory prayers, these angry prayers, and certainly the prayers of lament, show me where to go with this. And if I do not have to deny the reality of the anger I feel and even, frankly, the hatred that I may feel, you know, if I'm going to deal with that hatred, I have to own it first. And I have to, you know, I have to say, look, first of all, I hate this person before I can ask the question, okay, why? Why do you hate them? If you're in denial about those things, you'll never deal with them. You'll relabel them. And, and I think today, this might get me in trouble. The label we use to justify our, our hatred and our anger is justice. That's the word we use. And I think we misapply it often. Well, it's almost as if we've, It's almost as if we've adopted the imprecatory Psalms and stopped there. Yeah, right, exactly. And so, you know, I think part of the context of all of those prayers, whether it's lament or whether it's imprecatory Psalms, there was an understanding of the, of God's order in relation to covenant. And so part of what you're seeing in those imprecatory Psalms is, look, these people are well outside God's justice. They're harming your covenant people. They are stalling your plans. They're hindering your plans. You know, bring these curses down upon them. I agree with you. I don't think it's a paradigm for us today. I think it's a picture of how we can express our deepest emotions to God. But in praying those things, we almost have to be prepared to be corrected because we don't always understand what God is doing, particularly beyond the, the more clear, I would say, covenant structure of ancient Israel. Right. But you could even envision something like, you know, part of the, what I've been reading lately, Jeremiah 25, where God calls Nebuchadnezzar his servant. And here's going to come in God's servant. He's going to drag his people out of the land and into exile. Well, you could see a lot of Israelites praying imprecatory Psalms toward Nebuchadnezzar. Right. And yet this is God's servant that's coming in to do this for very particular reasons. And so there's a way for us, I guess what I would say is there's a way for us to use the imprecatory Psalms to avoid self-examination, to really deeply understand what's wrong with us too. And, and so I love that analysis of it. You know, the other prayer, as I was reading through this chapter that came to mind, it's an odd one, but Exodus 32. If you remember Exodus 32, God's going to come down and he, he tells Moses, he says, listen, these Israelites are messed up beyond all. Yeah. I don't deal with these people anymore. I'm going to, I'm going to relocate the covenant to you and we're just going to make this happen. What do you think? And Moses, Moses, in sort of an interesting moment of transparency with God, says, no, this can't be who you are. This can't be what you do. Yeah. Right. He has this moment where he can have, you know, greatness beyond anything that he even has now. And he, he responds to God and just says, no, like sort of with all my heart, I don't want that. I don't want it. I don't need it. I want you to be you. And I, I think there's something sort of clarifying and beautiful about the way Moses does it because here's God telling him what he's going to do. And Moses is like, I'm going to push back on this and just be really, really bold in saying, no, we, this can't be the way we go. What's striking to me about it on two levels. One is that Moses, when he rejects it, doesn't reject it for his own sake. He doesn't, which I think most, a lot, I, you know, I would look at it and say, oh wow, do I want that job or not? And then, you know, and then I might, you know, and then I might say like, well, you know, I love the fact that you made that offer, but I still, it doesn't really fit me. It's not, it's not, you know, Moses' argument is entirely focused on God. He basically says, look, if you do this, uh, this is what people are going to think about you. And you can't, you can't do that. You just can't do that. Which leads to the second thing that's really amazing about it. That's exactly what God has in mind. That is why God makes the offer. And he, if you look at the wording, he, I don't want to say clever. Clever isn't the right word, but he subtly words his offer in a way that signals to Moses that he has been drawn into God's redemptive work. That he's been drawn into this redemptive story, which is what Jonah didn't figure out. And so that, so that it gives Moses permission to say, no, you can't do it that way. You, you have to, and I do wonder if he regretted it later. I think probably he did. I think he probably had days, you know, where he, uh, in himself thought, you know. Right before he smacked that rock in anger. Right. So, but, and, and that's, uh, again, if we're trying to understand the imprecatory, uh, uh, prayers that we find in scripture, uh, that is where you have to fit them into the larger picture of this movement that John identifies when he talks about the movement from law to grace. You know, law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. That, um, You know, that, that even, even in these acts of justice, two things are happening. One is God is highlighting the need for redemption and grace, and he's moving that forward. And he's moving it forward to the point where, where Jesus Christ comes. And there's this fundamental shift. Um, but here's, here's something that really was startling to me in this whole notion of this longing for, for justice. When you get into the book of, when you come to the book of Revelation, which here you have the end of the story, you know, this is the, or at least moving toward the end of the story at one point you have the martyrs under the altar. Yeah. Okay, they're, they're in heaven. Their struggle is done. And, and you would think if I was thinking about what, you know, what it must be like to be in a context, you would think they wouldn't even be thinking about earth because there's God in his glory and the lamb and, right, not to mention angels and, and they're in bliss. What is it they're thinking about? How long, oh Lord, before you avenge our blood? Yeah. This, there's this impetus toward justice that reaches even into

to the heavenly realm. So it's not, and I think there's an element of mystery there because God's answer to them is, in the picture, they're given white robes and basically God says, wait. And I think that's it. That's also, that's the place we're in. I think that the, actually, the message of the book of Revelation is not meant to teach us, it's not like your Disney World guide to, you know, when you get there, go here first. It's about earth. It's about what's happening now. It's written to people who are in the same place that the martyrs are in in that they're in the process, they're waiting for God to finish the story. And right now, the message is, just wait, which was also God's message to Jonah, which was also Moses understood that that was what God was doing. Don't do this now. Just wait because now is the day of salvation. Yeah, and even I would connect that in. I love that picture of the martyrs under the altar in Revelation. I think the other text that I've generally gone to lately is Matthew 24 where Jesus is telling his disciples all the bad things that are gonna happen. And what I've talked about in that passage is that Jesus doesn't encourage his disciples to stop these things from happening. He doesn't encourage them to fix the world. What he encourages them with is, you're going to endure this and God is going to stop it before it gets to a point that goes beyond your endurance. Yeah, and because their role is not to fix it. Their role is to bear witness. Right. Just endure, bear witness faithfully, and keep moving. And I think that's how they bear witness, right? Is that through their endurance, that's part of their testimony. Anyway, yeah. No, no, not at all. I think as we think about prayer in that vein, and I guess I'm wondering, I'll say this, and then I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on people or to give people to kind of encourage them as they develop their awkward moments with God. But I think prayer is sort of crucial to our endurance. As I've been asked to reflect even on National Day of Prayer and different things like that, when we think of prayer not just as asking God's blessing on our country, but we think of it as remembering that God sits above our country, that prayer rightly aligns us with the order that God has established, or at least has the potential to. And in that way, it gives us this idea, almost like what you said about Harawash, going back to the Scriptures to realign our experience with reality. Prayer, I think, can have that effect as well if we're doing it correctly, if we're really leaning into that idea that we're praying to the God who we're waiting for. I think it does have that sort of sense of contributing to our ability to endure faithfully. Yeah, one of the great temptations when it comes to prayer is to want to try to use it to control God. And we have an agenda that we want God to fulfill. And so often when I look at the way the church approaches prayer, it feels like that's what we're really... it's like, number one, it's like our petition drive. Let's get in, if we can get enough people praying, if we can get enough people praying for long enough, then whoever I don't want to be in office will not be in office or whatever. And I think the way you're describing it is really helpful that it is this sort of, I'm trying to think of the right word, it is this cooperation with God, this struggling with God that is assuming that he's the one working. He's working out his purposes. And my struggle is, I'm trying to come into alignment with him. And then I am trusting the result to him. Now, I'm not saying it's wrong to pray specifically for, there are things we want to see happen. Pray it, you know, as long as it's not something that the Bible tells you you shouldn't. But also recognize that God's the one who makes the decisions about whether that fits what he's already doing. You know, I think it's legitimate to pray specifically and concretely and the things that bother me. I should talk to God about them and pray for them. In terms of what word I might have for, you know, people who are struggling. My book was written for people, it was not written for experts. It was written for people who struggle with prayer. And so what I would say is, don't be afraid to struggle. Don't be afraid of the awkwardness of the conversation you have with God. You have awkward conversations with people all the time and you push through. And the thing that causes you to push through is this important relationship. You know, you go out on a first date or, you know, you have to have, you have to talk to somebody about a sensitive subject or whatever it is. In human relationships, it happens all the time. I feel uncomfortable, but I have to say this because it's important. Go ahead and do that with God. Simply, what's the secret to prayer? Just speak. Open your mouth or open your heart. Do the best you can. Come to the Father through Jesus Christ and trust that he knows it. He knows what you're trying to say to him and recognize that not only is he listening, he's responding. And so as the theme, you know, that's come up a number of times. So then just wait. Wait and see what he will do. But that's probably a, I hope that's not too trite, but that's what I would say. No, I think it's something that I've come back to with a number of guests on the episodes is the basics tend to just come back around. Be persistent. Continue despite the awkwardness. Continue despite the inconvenience. Right. Set aside yourself and really just wait on God. I think these things are in some ways really easy to say and they can sound trite. But when we delve into them, they become more and more profound. You know, and so I think it's actually a perfect way to end this conversation. And I just encourage folks to go out and get your book. They can also visit you at johnkessler.com, correct? Right. And we'll put that link in the show notes. The book's available at... There's a set of videos and a group discussion guide there that they can download for free. Fantastic. Yeah. So it'd be a good resource for small groups. I will link that in the show notes and make sure everybody has access to it. And then the book's available, I'm sure, Amazon.com. It's published by Lexham, right? Yeah. And actually, there's a link. If you go to my website and there's a link to Lexham with the book where you could get a discount too. Oh, great. But yeah, most of all, Amazon and all the other online book sources, you should be able to get it there. Very cool. Or I can sell it out of my trunk. That's right. We'll put your address up there too. No, we'll route people to johnkessler.com because I think getting that discount would be great. And obviously, it's available with Amazon if people want the ease of that. But John, thanks for being here. This has been great. Yeah, thanks, James. Yeah, just awesome to catch up with you, man, and appreciate the conversation on prayer. Yep. Grateful for you and your ministry as well. Thank you, sir. And we'll catch everybody on the next episode of Thinking Christian. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to LifeAudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Brought to you by Life Audio and BibleStudyTools.com, Your Nightly Scripture, a calming, scripture-centered devotional podcast created to help you end your day with peace, reflection, and rest in God's presence. This 260-day Bible reading journey features carefully selected passages from across Scripture paired with slow, reflective devotionals and gentle evening prayers. Whether your ending is stressful day, struggling to quiet anxious thoughts, or simply longing to fall asleep focused on God's truth, Your Nightly Scripture is here to guide you into a more peaceful night. You can listen to Your Nightly Scripture on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.