Romney Ruder | Revival Behind Bars: Discipleship, Dignity, and Breaking Generational Chains

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer and I am joined today by Romney Reuter. And Romney is the president of Lifeline Global Ministries. And it's a really cool ministry to men and women who are incarcerated. So Romney, welcome to the program. Thanks for being here. Yeah, thanks for the invite. It's a pleasure to be with you today. Yeah, talk a little bit about, just as we get into this, why don't we just start by introducing the ministry to people? Sort of what does the ministry do? And then I want to talk about how you got into it. Yeah, so we have been around for almost 25 years now. And we got our start at Angola State Prison down in Louisiana, who at the time was known as the deadliest prison in America. And there was a lot of work being done in that community through the church and through the administration. And one of the things that they really wanted to do as they saw transformation being happening through the Holy Spirit was how do they now take what they've learned and convey that to their families and make an impact on their families? And Malachi Dads was the result of that work. And so Malachi Dads and Hannah's Gift, which is our women's program, is really designed to engage the incarcerated mother or father to help them embrace in their walk with Christ, the roles that they've been called into as part of that relationship. And that too often when you find yourself incarcerated, sometimes you kind of come up with this mindset of, hey, I know what I'm supposed to be doing, but when I get out of here, that's when I'm going to really start employing this. And what we say is, no, in your day-to-day walk, the time to make that happen is right now. And so, you know, that means being a godly parent if you have children. That means being a godly spouse if you're married. It means making disciples. It means being salt and light in your community. And so we really focus in on those roles. The names of our programs are really kind of about the whole man. Certainly, we talk about family restoration. That's ultimately our goal. But we really try to engage the entire man or woman from a biblical perspective on what their lives should look like. And so our overall goal is to break the chain of generational incarceration, which depending on the state could be as high as 80%, the likelihood that a child will follow in their parent's footsteps. And so what we see from this over the course of the years is what we're calling generational incarceration, really, is generational sin. I mean, it's an epidemic that impacts multiple generations of families. And unfortunately, in some of their communities, actually many communities around the United States, the overflow of that generational sin really impacts entire communities. And so it's not outside of the bounds to go into the south side of Chicago or North St. Louis or take your pick of the city, talk to young people and say, hey, what does your future hold? And they'll say, hey, I fully expect to spend part of my life behind bars because that's just the general atmosphere of the communities they're being brought up in. So we aim to break that by working with men and women behind the walls to really build them up and then be at that leader, that catalyst leader in their family and in their communities. How do you, so I find this really interesting. A couple of connections here. Number one, my partner, Emmett Mitchell, who is the CEO of the D.L. Moody Center, his brother and he worked with gangs in Kansas City for a long, long time. And one of the things he always talks about when he talks about his brother is that his brother saw promise in these young gang leaders. He's like, if they could only apply the leadership principles they're using in these gangs in a Christ-like way for the church, they would have this massive kingdom impact. And I think, you know, many of us probably, because we don't have that window to that world, are sort of writing these folks off where we're not seeing the potential that they actually have to lead in community, to impact the community. And so I'm wondering if you can speak to that, like these folks who are in prison and they're incarcerated. Number one, do you see an odd sort of leadership potential in them, given their experience, given their maybe even stature within the communities they come from, to reorient people to Christ? And then number two, I'm wondering, and this can be a follow-up question, but how is discipling people, which is maybe, maybe that's how you think about what you're doing, but that's how I sort of read it on the website. Discipling people in prison, how does that have its pros and cons? I'm kind of interested in that. So first question is, do you see a real unique potential for these folks coming out of prison to have a stature and a reputation and experience to lead within their communities and that they might not have had if they had not been in prison? Yeah, so one of the things I guess I would, I would talk about, and when we take a look at worldwide missions, you know, one of the things that we have been witnessing is that the greatest amount of growth comes from the most broken, impoverished areas. I mean, when you take a look at third world growth in places like India and China and South America, where, I mean, you're hearing these crazy numbers of people making, not only making decisions for Christ, but the number of churches being planted. And you start to recognize that within this brokenness, it allows the Holy Spirit to move. And when people recognize in the depths of where they are, that there's a savior that came from them, they're just more open to responding to that call. Well, I've had the benefit of working with the urban poor across the United States. And what I could tell you is our poverty, as you can well guess, doesn't really mimic what we're talking about in these other countries. And in fact, probably the biggest thing that replicates that level of brokenness is when those prison doors shut and men and women kind of reach a point in their lives where I've had enough. I can't go any lower than this bottom. And so there's an openness to receiving the Holy Spirit that we might not otherwise see in the outside of the walls. And so that is, number one, you know, it sets a great opportunity for us. Secondly, when a man or woman behind the walls decides to become a Christian, it's not an easy decision. You know, when we're on the street, it's an easy decision. There's not really a lot of repercussions. Maybe in our family dynamics, we might get a little bit of pushback, but behind the walls, you have to understand there's gang pull. There is, uh, polls from, uh, uh, race groups, uh, tie in with economics, you know, there's just so many different things. And if one decides, Hey, I'm going to avoid getting in those groups and become a Christian, all eyes are on them. And you don't get to fake it until you make it. I mean, like they're looking at you and going, okay, is he pulling the wool over our eyes? Is he really following this, this son of God that, that he claims to be? And, and so there's a genuineness that comes out of validity, if you will, in, in the faith walk that we don't necessarily see on the outside. You know, when I'm teaching guys on a weekly basis, you know, oftentimes I will tell them, Hey, I belong to a wonderful mature family group that meets every week. And, and kind of like a Bible study group. And I, and I belong to a Sunday school group that is just mature believers. And I, and I love them, but the reality is at noon on Sunday, I don't know what their walk looks like. I mean, like they could leave. And whereas in this community, they're living it out each and every day. Now, don't get me wrong. They're making mistakes, but they're recognizing what that looks like. And, and so it just sets, um, you know, a different tone. And, and one of the things that we, uh, deeply engage these guys with and gals is, is that God does not make mistakes in creation, that everybody is wonderfully made, even those behind bars. And so often we hear.

The mantra, if you will, of it took me coming in prison for me to find freedom and that freedom comes from Christ. And so in these folks walk, you know, they're just, that's what they needed for that wake up. But God has a ministry, they've been called for the things that we're talking about in the roles, but sometimes they've been called for bigger things. And so what I would say is, is that in the redemption story, that is these people's lives, what greater value that they have to talk about where they have been, the depths of where they have been, but then be able to testify to the work of the Holy Spirit to where they are now. And sometimes those stories just outlive anything that we can experience outside the walls. You know, you talk about that and it's one thing learning to live sort of within that more isolated community of the prison, right, where you have a, my envision of it at least, I've never been, so I don't know it well, but my impression is that you have a fairly set schedule, that you have, you know, you're fairly isolated. You're interacting with the same general group of people, you know, life is relatively uniform. And how does that translate when these folks get out of prison, where life is a little bit more contingent and you know, like you have a lot of randomness. It can be, it can be difficult. Yeah. I mean, oftentimes when these guys through our program and through other ministries, when they're really, and I'm going to get to your question, but I just want to preface it with this. They're really becoming building trust because they're starting to unpack some of their vulnerabilities, which in prison, you know, is typically a no-no. These guys are starting to unpack these things and so there's healing from sometimes trauma. There's healing from past misconceptions, what the world has told them what a man is supposed to look like or what a woman's supposed to look like. And so through that and unpacking these things, trust starts building. And what ends up happening is with that trust, you start getting a body of believers and these men start relying on one another. And that impact, you know, breaks down other affiliations that they may have had coming into this, including gangs and other groups. And so when these guys are fully engaged in that Acts 2 types of church behind the walls, it's kind of like a cloister. I mean, you know, similar to monks, I mean, they're wearing the same clothes. They're all eating at the same time. They all live in cells. You know, I mean, there's a lot of correlation. So when these guys get out into the world, it can be difficult. We try to urge in our rollout of our curriculum and programs, wherever we can, we try to engage the local church to help facilitate our programs. It is so crucial because for many points, first and foremost, we're called as a church body to reach the incarcerated person. And so we provide a great on-ramp for churches to do that. So oftentimes churches might have the mindset of, well, this doesn't really affect our community. And oftentimes I'll say, hey, you know, ask from the pulpit, who's been touched by this. And you'll be surprised at how many people have been touched in their immediate family or extended family by incarceration. So it's crucial to get the local church involved for that reason. It's also crucial because as a parent, raising children in today's world is extremely difficult. Even if you're home every night and you're able to engage them regularly, how much harder is it for these guys who are trying to have that same level of impact from behind the walls? And so that's where the local church comes in to be able to provide assistance and be able to not only reach the man or woman that they're ministering to, but really be a place where the family can come and find a like-minded community. And then certainly the last thing is, is that when these guys, studies have indicated that when men, and the study only indicated men, not women, but when men are engaged in a local church while on the inside, they have those relationships built and they're essentially met at the gate, meaning that they have a community waiting for them on the outside. Recidivism numbers, which are over 70% in most states, recidivism numbers go down to single digits. The likely that the guys will go back. So the church plays a huge impact in helping these guys, you know, transition. And certainly you've got things like job and where they're going to live and getting licensed and social security cards and so on and so forth. But I'm just talking about just the keeping the accountability, keeping the community and so on and so forth. That's an unbelievable drop in double digits, single digits. I mean, that's pretty crazy. That's just the power of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Yeah. When I was with, I'm glad you addressed the role of the church with the families on the outside because I sort of wondered how that worked. I mean, maybe describe the process you guys go through. Obviously you've got Malachi dads and Hannah's gifts that are working with the people in the prison. But then you have some other things that sort of help bridge the gap between the folks who are in prison and their families. Yes. Yeah. So one of the things, so Lifeline Global, we have an enormous footprint. I mean, we're active in 35 states. We're in 22 countries. Last year we reached almost 15,000 men through our online availability on e-reader and tablets, which are now becoming commonplace in prisons and jails. We're reaching about 30,000 visitors every month that are, I mean, and what's miraculous about that is that when you're using e-reader and tablets, there's no way to market, you know, to, hey, visit this site and here you can find this. So that just is a testimony to incarcerated people searching for family restoration. And how much need is out there. But I'm sorry, you're gonna have to ask the question again because I No, it's okay. Bridging between No, it's okay. I'm sort of fascinated by the tablets in prison. I didn't realize that was a thing. I mean, I think it's awesome that people are just finding you more organically. That's amazing. But no, the question was how the sort of restoration process actually works. Like let's say somebody comes out of prison and they're reunited with their families or they're in prison. How do they retain a connection with their family? How does that work in general? Yeah, so where I was going with that is that while we have this enormous footprint, we intentionally stay small with our administration to force us to work with local ministry, local churches, local chaplains. And the reason we do that is because it's just a sustainability thing. I'm calling you from Wichita, Kansas. So certainly I have, I care. I was just in Louisiana last week. I care what's happening in Louisiana and every other state we're involved in. But I really care about what's happening in Kansas because this is my backyard. This is my community. So when we engage locality, you know, we find that people often, you know, are able to dig in a little bit deeper. What we try to do is be a tool on the tool belt of local ministries. So again, we have these products that we know each of our ministries, Hannah's gift and Malachi Dad's is a set of four different studies that can be taken independently or be built upon one another that focuses on what it looks like to be a man or woman of Christ, what it looks like to live into those roles and what are family restoration, what are biblical reconciliation practices that in turn lead to family restoration. And then from that point, we're largely relying on the man or woman that is getting trained to then engage their family and start that process. And certainly it, it looks different for everybody. I mean, some have a great relationship with their kids and, and some have never met their child and their child is now 33 years old and, and has grandchildren and whatnot. And everywhere in between. And so we also have a kind of a graduation event that we call Returning Hearts. That's why I was in Louisiana this last week. Returning Hearts is an event that really celebrates the work that these, in this case, the men

at Angola State Prison that the men were putting in, and it allows them to engage their children for a half day in a safe, fun environment where they can build on that reconciliation process. They can share the love of Christ and really start the movement towards restoration. Separately, on the other side of the facility, we have an event for the guardians because it doesn't necessarily, just because the man or woman that are taking our curriculum, it may not be being received on the other end. And so the guardians may be in a different spot. And so we love on them and teach them about the things that we're going through. What I would say for our partners nationwide is that what we just did in Angola last week really is a showcase of, hey, this is what it can look like, but oftentimes our partners, you know, are just having smaller ceremonies and smaller graduations. And sometimes families are invited. And so everybody kind of does their own thing. One of the nice things about keying in on locality is everybody knows their institution and what works and what doesn't work. So what we've celebrated last week with returning hearts is, again, a showcase type event at its high point. We've been on a five, six year hiatus due to COVID and coming out of COVID. So we hadn't been back since 2019, but, you know, at its high point, you're going to have 175 to 200 inmates participate. You'll have 500 children show up and it takes 500 volunteers in order to make that event happen. We've got people from all over the country, just like we did last week, who fly in to make that a short-term missions volunteer event. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. I think it's great you do something with the guardians. I mentioned before we started recording that my wife and I have done foster care for a while. And I think one of the things we've struggled with is not fully understanding what the biological parents have gone through. You know, we sort of get the, if you will, the negative end of the stick. And that's not to say anything disingenuous about the parents. But the reality is that oftentimes we're dealing with the problems that the parents have sort of left aside, not the children, but the actual problems. And so we're trying to put some things back together. And so there's always a little bit of trepidation when we're, you know, in the process of saying, okay, if this parent, this child should go back to their parents, we're really trusting the system to have done the work that needs to be done so that when this child is given back to the parents, that it's going to be a good situation. And I can only imagine that you're doing that same thing with these folks who've been guardians of these children. Now a parent is coming back out of prison and they're kind of sitting back saying, yeah, but we've done a lot for this child over this time. How can we trust that this person is going to be a positive influence in their life? How can we trust that this person is not going to ruin some of the good work we're doing? You know, and you can see how there would be feelings of resentment that would kind of creep in there. It's a difficult process. And so I'm really glad to hear you do something with the guardians as well. Yeah, there, you know, there's so many. I mean, one of the things with the process of the way that returning hearts works is that the children arrive in the morning with their guardians. They get checked in as part of our security protocols. We have to have a family assistant, a volunteer with every family unit. So the inmate father or grandfather or uncle, you know, can engage with those kids, but there's always somebody there. But what happens is, is the family assistant then takes those children to an area where there's an MC and the dads are all sitting, waiting for their children to arrive. And, and it's, it's the most powerful ministry. You know, I've, I've been blessed to be able to do ministry all over the world. And I can tell you that I've never been so moved by this event time and time again. And what happens is, is, is that the child, the name is called out for the dad and the dad comes down and engages the child. And from a worldly standpoint, when we look at these men in this case, we see murderer, we see rapist, we see thief, we see assaulter. I mean, take your pick on the crime. Oftentimes these kids, they just see daddy and the reunion in some of these cases, these guys have not seen their children in years, if ever. It's touching. If you're a parent, you're just sitting there going, man, this is so wonderful, this engagement. And at the same time, you're overwhelmed by the tragedy that this is even having to take place. And then what you see is the disparity of the children depending on their age. They age out at 18. And so you're getting children from, from five to five to 18. You're getting children of all ages. And you know, there are kids who are men. I've never met this guy before. And I'm really apprehensive because, you know, I've been told of stranger danger and that's what this guy is. And so, you know, they're just, their eyes are wide open and they've, Hey, I've just been dropped off. And, and fast forward, you might have multiple children and have a son or daughter that's older that the kids are engaging dad, but the son or daughter has had to live into that parent role. And they're very protective of the siblings and the little kids are going and they're hugging dad and they're loving on him. And the older kids are like, stop. We don't have that kind of relationship. I'll, I'll shake your hand or so on and so forth. If you can imagine a few years back, you know, we, we get kids that come all the way from all over the state. And, and we had a bus come from new Orleans. We had a five-year-old child, five-year-old child who was put on a Greyhound bus in new Orleans and showed up at the event by himself. Five years old. He didn't know his dad's dad's name or anything. I mean, he just showed up and I mean, you know, I, I don't have that kind of courage. But you know, the day ended up going out well and he ended up getting to know dad and so on and so forth. But you know, I'd never met again, didn't know his name or so on and so forth. And in the environment that he was in, whoever the guardians were felt comfortable. Yeah. We're just going to put them on this bus and we'll look for him when he comes back. And you know, that's outside of the, of what I'd be comfortable with. But those are the types of stories that we encounter all the time. Do you, does your curriculum address these issues or do you think that the men that they're there, they have a decent enough sense of what maybe they should be expecting when they're doing that and reuniting? Like how do you prep them for that, that moment, whether it goes good or bad, how are they, how are they framing that? Do you think as they are sort of reunited with their kids reunited with their families? Yeah. So we do in our curriculum, for example, for men, we spend 24 weeks on what it looks like to be a godly man. We take a deep dive into Timothy and Titus and we take a look at the definition of the overseer and we really apply that to what it looks like to be a man of Christ. And so in those, we break down all the key components of what that looks like. Patience and sobriety and, and, and take your pick. And then we, we spend weeks, you know, taking, breaking down each one of those and delving into it and, and then applying it to their past life and then applying it as well to what they would like to life to look like moving forward. And so through that time, you know, they're, they're, they're reaching that, they're getting that coaching process. And the expectation is, is that while in some cases at returning hearts, men are meeting their children for the first time.

The expectation as to our program is, hey, you're starting to build that relationship or reengage that relationship while you're going through this program. And certainly that looks different for everybody. You know, sometimes, you know, we have plenty of inmates who have court mandates that they're just, they're not even allowed to write their kids. I mean, they're just, hey, you can't. And so we encourage them to write letters and just save them. At some point, we know that they're going to age out. The kids will age out. And we want those dads to be able to say, hey, listen, I've been praying for you and I wanted to write you, and here's, let me show you, you know, and that helps with the dad as well just really try to fully understand the impact, you know. And so one, I would say, is that they kind of get that through every class of what this looks like. And certain dads sit from the get-go and some wait till the last minute. What I would tell you is, is that I talked about that greeting of the child to the dad and how emotional that is. The only thing that's even more emotional is at the end of the day, we release balloons as a metaphor of that brokenness no longer being there through the work of Christ, as well as the redemption in a new relationship with the family. And then those kids are exited out. And I mean, you see some really big, hard guys that otherwise you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley. And they're balling. I mean, it's tragic. I mean, it really is. And I have to spend the next 20, 30 minutes just crying with them and put my arms around them and just saying, and for some of these men, it's at that point where they fully understand the consequences. Like prison, all the years in prison, they still weren't getting it. And when they finally have gotten a chance to spend this fun time with their children and love on their children, and then their children are then gone again, they fully understand the consequences of where they are. And so that sometimes is the spark that really gets that dad to say, you know what? Enough's enough. I'm being the dad that God called me to be. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. You talk a lot about, maybe I understand this, maybe I don't, so correct any misperception. My understanding is that there are a lot more men, sort of per capita, incarcerated than women. Yeah, I mean, I'm not getting into statistics, but it's probably, you know, 9 to 1, you know. Wow, okay. And maybe this could be a misperception too, but I'm interested to understand, I would think that as a man, it would be easier to reintegrate into a family than it would be as a mom. And I think in part, like I watch my, there would at least be a, I mean, this is almost trivial to say there'd be a difference, but you know, I watch the way my wife bonds with our foster kids. I watch the way my wife bonds with our adopted daughter. It's very different than what I do. You know, it's not that I don't love the kids or anything like that, but as more of the, you know, stoic disciplinarian and that orientation that I sort of bring to our family anyway, you know, the rough hours of the player, I can almost see it being more easily reintegrating back in a mom that really does do more of the nurturing and the loving and the caring and just has a different way about that. Do you see that as you're sort of the difference between reintegrating moms and dads? Am I making that up or is there something real there? Is there a fundamental difference? Yeah, I would say that it's situational. I mean, there's never like one case that looks like another. So, for example, you know, sometimes we're looking at dad who's been incarcerated for three years. He went in when his son was two. His son's now five. And he's kept communication with either his wife or the baby mama or whoever, grandma. And so there's maybe that situation is easier. You have another dad whose kids are adults now. And they've been out of their life their entire time. And those kids know their dad as drug addict, bum, non-child support payer, one who made their mom cry. And all of a sudden dad reenters the picture and says, hey, I have found Jesus Christ and I want to be a part of your life now. You know, there are some kids who say, hey, I've been praying for this. But there's a lot of kids who are like, hey, where have you been? You know, I don't get it. I have it. And so there's a lot of things to overcome on the male side of things. You had talked about kind of the provide discipline and so on and so forth. You know, if you haven't been there to do it in the past, it's kind of hard to exert that leadership and from behind the walls. From a mom's standpoint. You know, most, not all men, but most women, studies have indicated, most women that are incarcerated have been impacted by trauma. And so whether or not there's been whatever that trauma looks like, there has been a lot of things that they've been wrestling through as women in their own lives. And it's hard to kind of determine what type of parent they were previously or, you know, where they're coming from with that. I can tell you that a few years back, I was at a graduation for Hannah's Gift and one woman gave her testimony. And she said, you know, in taking this program, she said, I've recognized that I was not a good mother. She says, my, my girls are adults now, but she says, you know, when they're growing up, she said, because of my, my life choices and my addictions and so on and so forth, I just really wasn't there. I just, I was gone. I was checked out. And she says, but through this program, she says, I'm getting reintroduced to my daughters. But what's the blessing is, is that they're allowing me access to my granddaughters. And so this is a new relationship that now I can engage my granddaughters. And here's, here's where it really hit a pivotal tone. She said, I really got hit between the eyes when I was talking to my daughter because my daughter let me know. She says, you know, mom, every instinct that I have as a mother comes from doing the opposite of what you would have done. I mean, can you imagine hearing that? I mean, as a, as a parent and saying, you know, I really, but then the, but the daughter came back and she says, but I want you to know that I pray that I can be the woman of God that you are today. I mean, that's, that's so, you know, the daughter is older. She never really had mom as part of the house, but now she's at a point of over time of reconciliation and that we hope that, you know, while we want to see transformed men and women in our ministry, the impact is really felt in the next generation or generations to come. So what we're hoping that through our ministry, that these men are impacting their families in a way that their sphere of influence is putting people on a different trajectory than what they had been through the previous generation. So, and everybody, you know, that just got, God's story is different than ours and, you know, it happens differently with everybody. What do you see as the bigger challenges, you know, working with men?

Men and women in prison is one thing. Helping them reintegrate into society through a local church partnership is another. What are some of the barriers you think that a local church who might be thinking about getting involved in your ministry or who might be thinking about getting involved in a similar ministry, what do you think they ought to be thinking through as they do this? Some of the maybe the pinch points that local churches tend to go through as they're delving into ministries like this. Are there any sort of hot topics that you think they ought to be addressing before they go wide open moment for? Yeah, so one of the things, so we're a member of Christian Ministry and Chaplains Association, which is kind of a third party entity that engages anybody involved. You know, prison ministry is an extremely broad topic. So I mean, you're dealing with drug addiction, you're dealing with reentry, as you mentioned, you're dealing with family restoration. So we kind of all collaborate and try to develop best practices and share our ministries and break down the silos. But we just conducted a research project. And in the research, we wanted to really test what church engagement looked like. You know, where does the church think it is nationwide when it comes to prison ministry? And what we were surprised by as members of the CMCA in the results is how many churches feel like they're engaged in ministry to the incarcerated without necessarily indicating how. Just, hey, oh yeah, you know, we're kind of doing this and we're kind of doing this and so on and so forth. And what I would say is, is that from the vantage point of the people doing ministry on the ground, the church is largely disengaged from this mission field. And oftentimes it's in our society, unfortunately, and in our church society, it is still really kind of the whispered sin. You know, the church has been very open in addressing things like abortion, pornography, sexuality, divorce. You know, we're willing to talk about those things from the pulpit, but when it comes to incarceration, largely it's still in hushed tones. You know, the members aren't bringing forth the fact that they're being impacted by that or the pastor's not talking about, you know, what's happening in their locality. And I would say oftentimes pastors that I talk to, their responses, as I mentioned earlier, is that really doesn't impact our congregation or that really doesn't happen in our area. And what I would say is that we've got 2 million people that are incarcerated. And in fact, we've got plenty of states that if you took the top 10 developed countries besides the United States and combine their total incarceration, we have plenty of states that have more people incarcerated in their state than the next 10 developed countries. And so we have a responsibility to kind of live into that. And there's a missions field that we're called to do. You know, in Matthew, you know, Christ says, hey, when you reach these other guys, you reached me. Yeah. And oftentimes I've been part of sermons where I've heard pastors utilize those same verses and they stop short. Hey, we're willing to talk about the widow. We're willing to talk about the impoverished, but we're not going to take it all the way to the incarcerated. And part of that is because, again, people don't feel like it affects them. There's some that are, they don't feel like grace applies. Recognize that in our ministry, we're not talking about sentencing reform. We're not talking about, you know, changes in the laws or so on and so forth. What we're talking about doing is reaching men and women for Christ so that God can utilize them to be the catalyst of change in their family. We're not talking about whether or not, hey, they're justified to be released or we're not making any proclamations on that. So, you know, there's just a lot of things that the local church that we would just ask, man, you know, take a look and see, you know, what this looks like and how you can engage this. And because there needs to be more because the problem is getting worse. You know, we saw a little bit of drop off with COVID protocols, but now since COVID has ended, we're seeing these numbers rise again. And, you know, there's just a lot of work to be done. It's interesting. So I live in a military town and I had a guest on who was talking about being a military wife and she worked with military families all over the place. One of the things she mentioned that the local church could do a little thing. Hey, why don't you go offer to watch the kids while the military wife goes and gets groceries on her own? You know, it's something small to give her a break from the kids, let her just go out, get things done. Like it doesn't have to be anything big, but she said, people don't realize the impact of those small little things. And I think the underlying assumption that we ended up talking about a little bit on the episode was that most of the people who are dealing with these kinds of situations, whether it's a spouse who's away on military duty or it's a spouse who's incarcerated, aren't actually sharing the burden they actually have. They may not even be able to articulate it. And so to think that this can impact any given local congregation, I think it's kind of crazy to give it. But there's somebody in the orbit of someone who's incarcerated at the very least, even if it's not, you know, one of your congregants who has gone to prison, right, which may be what, maybe that's what churches mean. But I think that there's a broader ministry there that's really crucial and important and that most of us, including me, wouldn't understand. I don't have any context really for what ministry to prisoners and prisoners' families looks like. And I think that what you're articulating there may be interesting to churches feel like they're involved. I'm wondering if they just start being overly optimistic or, you know, they don't really understand the depth of what needs to be done. What's your read on that? Well, you know, it's interesting. I was talking to a Rotary group in Chattanooga, Tennessee a while back, and, you know, the crowd was made up, you know, I don't know the religious background of those people. So obviously I'm assuming I was talking to some people that were Christian and some people that weren't. But what I talked about in this case and trying to engage their involvement in their city jail or their county jail or their state prison, or if they have a local federal institution, was the impact of them getting involved, the impact that it was having on society. And I said, because regardless if you believe in the work of Jesus Christ, you are so impacted by your tax dollars, you know, as more, I mean, if you take a look at the stats of what it costs to incarcerate somebody in these facilities and so on and so forth, you know, the overall impact on community relations where, you know, there are targeted areas where, you know, a lot of these men and women, you know, reside from, whether it be, you know, reintegration, you know, I mean, there's only so many people that are spending their entire life behind bars. Most are getting released back into society. So, you know, the overall impact to society is huge. What I would say is, is that, you know, there's tons of opportunities. And, you know, one of the things about our curriculum is that it is designed to be facilitated. It's, we're not looking for teachers. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great if we have a teacher, but you don't need to have a PhD in eschatology in order to come in and reach our guys. And in fact, you know, I teach on a weekly basis at my local institution when I'm not traveling. And, you know, it's just really a men's study. I mean, I'm, and here's the thing, what we're talking to these guys about, unfortunately, we're not getting right on the outside. I mean, that's the crux of it, is the things that we're talking about on the inside that these guys need to do is continuing to break down on the outside. And so we seem to be regressing, especially as men. I mean, if I could be honest.

As men, we seem to be regressing on what our godly role is supposed to be. And so when I'm taking these guys through the classes, I'm as impacted and affected and take the learning lessons from it as much as they are. So, you know, there's just a, there's a lot. But, you know, maybe it's not something that's weekly. Maybe it's something that is monthly, or as you talked about, maybe it's re-entry on the outside. Maybe it's supporting ministries like Angel Tree, you know, which have these nationwide rollouts that, you know, it's not necessarily localized. You know, for us, it costs us almost $32 to reach one man or woman with our entire curriculum, $32. We underwrite it all. We're a donor-driven organization. We underwrite it all. And so, you know, for your listeners, I mean, certainly, we would love, if you're not inclined to necessarily get involved with support of actually doing the ministry, you know, help support, you know, the work that's being done to support that kind of ministry. Yeah, yeah. That's extremely low cost. I mean, I wouldn't have guessed it's that low. That's amazing. Well, how can people get involved? I mean, now we're kind of toward the end of the episode. So how can people get involved with Lifeline Global Ministries? What are sort of the different levels of involvement you can have? You talked about giving. So, you know, $32 to support, you know, giving to the ministry would obviously be helpful. What are some of the other things that people could do? Yeah, so you guys, hopefully, those that are watching can see our website there, but our website is called lifelineglobal.org. And we intentionally make our website very intuitive to answer the question that you're asking. And in fact, when you click on our website, there's a tab there that says get involved. And it will tell you, hey, here are opportunities for you to do just that. If somebody is called and says, hey, I really wanna know what's happening in my backyard, we provide the contact information. Hey, let us know where you are and we will try, you know, if we're aware, I mean, we have partners that, you know, are doing ministry that sometimes we're not even aware that they've been active. If somebody says, hey, I wanna start a group in my backyard, or, you know, I wanna start, I feel like God's calling me to this, you know, what would that look like? We have a whole sheet that you can click on. It really kind of gives step-by-step instructions of, hey, this is what it should look like. And one of the reasons, like I said, we exist is certainly to get our programming out there, but we then undergird what we try to do with as much support as we can to make you successful. So whether it's myself, again, we're a smaller, small, we have a huge footprint, very small organization. Myself or one of my coworkers will get on the phone with you and say, hey, you know, how can we help you make this happen? And it's not just to get started, it's for whenever you're doing ministry, moving on down the road. For those that say, hey, you know what, that's too much of a commitment. I wanna do something maybe just to kind of introduce myself to it. You know what, we do a returning hearts function, as I just talked about, that we just did this last week at Angola State Prison. And so that's an opportunity, again, to come really experience what the end of that looks like. And you know, there are plenty of other opportunities with other ministries. You know, we want, if I can say this, we really want people to be engaged in this ministry. And if that works with us, praise Jesus. If it works with somebody else, praise Jesus. You know, so there's a lot of opportunity, but you're welcome to contact us, like I said. And in there, there is plenty of contact information where you can reach out to us with questions and so on and so forth. And we're here to help that process along. And then likewise, you know, if you want to help us financially, you know, there's an opportunity to do that right from the site or to mail a check to help underwrite the cost of what we're doing around the country and around the world. That's awesome, man. I will put all that information in the show notes. So folks, if you didn't grab it, lifelineglobal.org is where you're going, but that'll be in the show notes and we'll put links to the various things that Romny mentioned here in there and just give you an opportunity to engage with this. I'd encourage you to do so. I think one of the, and it's not exactly the same, I realized, but I think, you know, being involved in foster care has really opened my eyes to a variety of different things. And it's given me a different perspective on my faith, different perspective on the Bible and theology, and those verses about, you know, caring for the widow and the orphan really start to come home a little bit differently. And so I would just encourage you to recognize that these are things that the Bible talks about that we should be doing, that we should be reaching out to the prisoners, that we should be reaching out to those who need our assistance and that it's a fantastic way to witness to Jesus Christ, to disciple these men and women who are incarcerated and who really are separated from the people that they love. And so I just encourage you to get involved with lifelineglobal.org at lifelineglobalministries. Romny, thanks for being here, man. This is a fantastic ministry. I don't know whether you have any parting words, but I'll give you the last word and then I'll close up the episode. Anything left you wanna say to folks? Yeah, I'm gonna make a big God statement here. Because I've had an opportunity to see just how genuine men and women's faith are behind the walls and seen the stories of how, what that looks like. And sometimes how difficult it can be to live that out, that faith walk. I really feel like the next revival in the church in America is gonna come from behind bars. I mean, we have seen some things that have just, people wouldn't believe. And I'm gonna share this last story here. It happened down in Texas. A chaplain friend of mine shared a recording and the recording was from 7 a.m. to 7:20 a.m. every day, one section of the prison would open up acapella and be singing praise and worship songs every day, seven days a week, time and time again. And you can hear these men singing. You had Christians and non-Christians and so on and so forth, all joining in. Nobody was organizing it. Somebody would just start singing and all these guys would join in, but you can hear it echoing throughout the walls of this facility. The section next door would hear these guys. And at 7:20 to 7:40 every day, they would pick up once these guys left off. And then a third section did it for an hour every day between these three sections. Men's voices are singing praises to the Lord on high. I mean, it gives me goosebumps to even think about. So it's for those reasons that I just ask your listeners to really trust in what God is doing with the incarcerated because it would not be too big a thing for him to cause the next revival from those folks. That's amazing, Romny. Appreciate you sharing that story and just appreciate you being here today, man. Thank you so much for the invite. It's been a pleasure to be here. I've enjoyed myself. Yeah, I love the ministry. Really love the conversation. And for all of you who have stuck with us, check out everything in the show notes. Again, lifelineglobal.org. If you wanna get involved, if you wanna donate, just encourage you to do so. It's all in the show notes. Check those out and we'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Thanks for being here, everybody. Take care. Just wanna take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. The love of God is immeasurable. It's unchanging. It's indescribable. Because God loves you so much, you can sleep through the night in peace. With Abide Bible Sleep Meditation, you can fall asleep fast with relaxing sleep stories based on Scripture. 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