How to Live Boldly for Christ: An Interview with Shayna Rattler

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I am here today with Shana Ratliff. She is the founder of a God Shift movement and is committed to upholding Christian values that impact world change and advances the purposes of God. She's also interested in mobilizing others to blaze that same trail. And so I've actually interviewed Shana when we had the radio program Useful to God. And so I'm excited to have her on Thinking Christian podcast now. So, Shana, welcome, and thanks for being on. I'm glad to be back. Well, why don't we start? Just usually when I start this out with my guests, I ask them just to talk a little bit about their story. And so if you can just give us a brief overview of how you came to this point in your life, what role faith plays in your life. And then we'll kind of move into, which I think we will just naturally move into what the God Shift movement is and why it's important. Yeah, so my background is in therapy. I was an occupational therapist for 18 years. I did a lot of leadership training and development. I at one point was a business coach. I taught business owners how to land corporate sponsors, how to land corporate contracts. And in 2018, everything in my life dried up and I had no idea what was going on. I kind of had, like, you know how people say, like, you just have a knowing. I had like a knowing that God was up to something, but I had no idea what. I knew that it probably was for my good because I didn't think that he would just be taking me through situations where I was like putting my mortgage two months in a row on a credit card. And like I wasn't losing contracts, but I wasn't getting any. Like the things that I could normally do in my sleep and probably do talk about in my sleep. I just couldn't perform. And so to say that everything dried up was really the only thing that I can think of that would make sense to describe that time period. But the long and the short of it was that the Lord was calling me to ministry. And if anyone listened to your radio show before, they probably heard me say, I'm the type of person that if you want my attention, you're probably going to have to hit me over the head with a two by four. You're not going to like just tap me on the shoulder. You're not going to just whisper. And the Lord knew that in order for me to be willing to transition into ministry, he was going to have to do something radical to get my attention. Now, once he did, you know, I threw my toddler tantrum for five or 10 minutes like I'd like to do. And then after that, I just said, OK, Lord, you know that any at this point, any assignment that you give me, I'm not going to ask a lot of questions. I'm going to just pout for a minute and then I'm going to just go blazing, you know, into that. So that was my story of how I kind of got into ministry. The first probably few years of my ministry, I was really dealing with helping people to overcome what I was referring to as disruption. Like when adversity comes your way, are we really equipped to use it as the tool that God really intends, meaning for us to grow from it and us to move forward from it? Or is it really just keeping us stuck? And then the fall of last year. So it's the beginning of 2024 at the time of this recording. Fall of last year, I heard the Lord very clearly and I don't know what it is about September. I probably need to do some studies. He speaks to me very closely in the month of September. But in the month of September of last year, he said to me, you've been dealing with people. Now it's time for you to deal with principalities. And I'm a big believer, James. And if there's something that you're complaining about, if there's things that you wish you could change, I believe that you're usually being called to some degree to be to be part of that solution. And so when I finally figured out, like what the help, how he meant about me, you know, fighting principalities or overcoming principalities, I really just had to take a look at I was just tired of seeing everything that I see every single day in the world around us. That, you know, the Bible says something about like, we'll come to a time where good will be called evil and evil will be called good. Well, I was just getting sick and tired of that. And so I said, Lord, I know I'm probably putting a mark on my chest. I know I'm probably putting maybe a mark on my life. I know I'm probably going to get canceled. But after I threw my toddler tantrum, I said, let's go. Very cool. Yeah, that's definitely been a little bit of a shift from when we talked initially because you were still, I think, in the people phase as opposed to the principality phase. And so, well, let's talk about, you know, talk a little bit about the God shift then and how you're thinking through that from the perspective of the principalities. Yeah. So my definition of a God shift, because when I think about a shift, I think about a continuum. I don't think about something that is just a one time occurrence. I think about, you know, kind of a phase of things. And so when I think about a God shift and when I look at how I'm approaching kind of upholding Christian values, I'm looking at it as when your influence and authority actually inspires somebody else to follow God's purposes or to realign with God's purposes. But it doesn't stop there. But then it mobilizes other people to do the same thing. And so that's kind of my continuum. I'm thinking there's so many of us that have authority and influence. Some of us are like you and myself. And we have platforms, but other people, they have influence in their homes, their communities, you know, in business. And so how is it that we can begin to use the influence and authority that we already have to uphold Christian values, help people to see why they're so important, help people to understand why they're under attack? Why are they looking to be eroded at every single turn? But then I think the most important part of the continuum, if you will, is that if there's only a handful of us that are willing to do this, we're not going to have much impact. And so where the real power in the shift comes in is when we can mobilize other people to do the same thing, because I think that's when we really begin to gain momentum and when we can really expect to see some influence and impact. And you've kind of chosen, again, since we last spoke, you've chosen to focus more on women's role in this, correct? That's been at least an emphasis in your ministry. Can you talk a little bit about that? What is, why the focus on women? You know, I can make some assumptions about that, but I won't. Like, why the focus on women and what is that unique role? Well, I can tell you your assumptions would be wrong because I threw a toddler tantrum. The clarity that the Lord gave me when he talked about, like, what he wanted me specifically to do, you know, in overcoming these principalities, he said, Shane, I want you to raise up an army of women. They're going to take a stand for me. And I said, Lord, you know, I don't want to do that. Like, I've always been the type of person, whether it was in business or whether it was in ministry, I always wanted, I guess this is probably the only time in this culture that it's appropriate to say gender neutral. I've always wanted, like, my brands or whatever it was that I was doing, I wanted them to not be for a certain ethnicity. I didn't want them to be for just a certain gender. Now, I recognize that it's not uncommon for your audience to mirror you. You're a white man, so it's likely that the bulk of your audience is probably white men. I'm a black woman, so it's not unusual that 77% of my audience are women. I don't know how many of those are black people because I really don't care. But when the Lord said, I want you to raise up an army of women, it wasn't, you know, some women are like, oh, I never wanted to work with women because I didn't get along with them or women have done nothing but abuse me or hurt me. It wasn't that. It was just that I've always been really intentional about not focusing in that that much. And so after my toddler tantrum, I said, okay, Lord, what is it that you want me to do with these women? And then I got excited about it and, you know, did all the things that you do when you're putting together something new. But to answer your question specifically, you asked me, like, what is woman's role in God's plan? And so I don't think that anyone would argue with the fact that there is a lot of stuff that is out of place. And I think that the Lord really wants women in this hour to arise and change the course of history. But in order to do so, we have to really look at what are the different ways that we can recover and restore what is out

They are able to lead in their communities. Women are rising the ranks, even though they say that they're still underpaid, or the statistics say that they're underpaid. Women are continuing to rise the rise in the ranks of even male-dominated industries. And so when we look at how all of that comes to a head, I just think that we're in a very unique position for women to do some major things for the glory of God. I mean, in most churches, the bulk of the women that are there, the bulk of the people that are there are even women. So I think that we're just in a unique stage, but many of us have no idea where to start, and these women need a leader, and I guess that's what I was chosen to do. That's very cool. I mean, I would say I resonate with a few of the things you said there. I've, you know, most people have suggested that I do some stuff more toward men, and I've always resisted that. And it's like, I don't think the Bible and theology are just for men. I'm not even, you know, sometimes, yeah, there's specific instructions to men in the scriptures, just like there's specific instructions to women. But it's like to tailor it after that, I've just never felt like that sort of urge to be the machismo guy and go after just the men's ministry or something like that, you know? So I totally resonate with what you're saying there. And then I would just say, I've talked about this in other places, but I think some of the most influential people in my life have been women. My wife, my executive coach for a year, was, let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. A woman, she was amazing and had some awesome insights for me. But I mean, that was a really formative time in my life. And I think that it's good to hear. I didn't know about the Southern Baptist Convention and the woman preaching. That's a really great thing, I think. There needs to be more reciprocity within the body of Christ, more recognition that we all have our unique gifts and we should really be viewing each other through that giftedness as opposed to through our respective genders. That's really encouraging. So as you look to lead women, what do you see? What would you say to just any woman out there who wants to sort of move the kingdom forward? What do they need to do to start? Like how do they get that ball rolling? Absolutely. So, you know, there's two different sectors here. There's those of us who have platforms, have businesses or whatever. I'll talk about that in a moment. But I also, I just want to start by saying, what is something that anyone can do if they're listening? They don't have to be just a woman. But what can anyone do? We can get involved politically. We can get involved in our school boards. If you don't have the expertise or the desire to run for office, you can at least attend your school board meetings. You can at least attend city council meetings. I do believe that the moment there become as many of our voices that are for God as those that are in there now that are against God, that we actually stand the chance of getting some things changed. You know, there's policies that are being passed every single day in our government and in our schools that are in direct, not only just in direct opposition to the word of God, but some of the things that our children are being exposed to and being taught. I don't care if you're an atheist, I just don't see how you could think it's appropriate for your middle schoolers to be learning some of the things that they're learning that I'm like, I don't even think a middle schooler should even know that that's exist, let alone the school books are like teaching them how to do it. And so we can get involved in that way. We can raise money. We all know that money, you know, money moves things. We can provide mentorship, but more importantly, we have to go where people are so that we have the opportunity to spread truth to them because many people don't even realize the negative impact of what it is that they're doing. And some do and they need to be held accountable for what it is that they're doing. So those are some of the ways that I think anyone can get involved. This army of women, if you will, that the Lord has caused me to raise up, I'm calling them kingdom trailblazers. And, you know, at the beginning, when we talked about like what my definition of a Godship was, I talked about when your influence and authority like activates other people to align with the purposes of God. And so if you're listening to this right now and you may have a platform and a platform does not have to mean that you have a podcast or that you have a radio show, but you probably have social media. You may even have a business. You may have a book club. There are places in your life that you have influence and that you have authority. And I would say one of the very first things that we can do is we can look at how do we occupy that space? This is not about creating something new. So people get in my community. I'm not going to teach you how to create a new platform. This is not about you creating a new business or a new anything different than what it is that you're already doing. But I will show you ways that you can use where you're already planted, even if it's at work, in order to uphold and protect Christian values and mobilize other people to do the same. And obviously there's a number of ways that you can do that, that I don't even really think we have to go into detail. I would just encourage everyone to ask themselves, where do you already have an audience, whether it's an audience of one or whether it's an audience of a thousand and one? And how can you begin to weave in to what it is that you're already doing to begin to take a stand for God? And it doesn't have to be like rally type. It doesn't have to be, you know, with protesting signs, because sometimes it could just be opening up conversations about topics that you are bothered by, opening up topics that you see that are happening in your world so that other people can give you their insight and give you their input. And together you can start to talk about how individually you can begin to do something about those things. And do you think some of this is going to end up, I mean, I know there's been some studies that came out, Pew research, those kind of things lately that are showing that there's an increasing dissatisfaction just amongst all Americans about, for instance, what children are being taught in schools. And so it feels like now is a really great time to sort of push. There seems to be a critical mass developing, we might say, to get in there. Whereas, you know, a year or maybe 18 months ago, that was not the case. You were at a much higher risk of being canceled, speaking at a school board meeting or something like that. But now I think there's enough of a critical mass. And so it's actually really crucial that we start prompting one another toward this now, because I think we can do a lot just on a grassroots kind of influence level, you know, even without sort of federal politics or state politics or anything like that, that local political level, I think there's a really great space for us to participate and get things moving. Would you agree or? I do agree. And I also think that you hit it on the head. So I was at a turning point event last summer, early fall, and Charlie Kirk said something that I don't think I'll ever forget. He said, now he was referring specifically to a lot of what we're seeing with LGBTQ and a lot of the gender role confusion or whatever. He said there was a time in life where it was live and let them live. You know, whether you were a Christian or whether you weren't a Christian, you were kind of able to adopt the mindset of, it's not what I believe, and it's not what I want to go on inside of my own home, but if that's what you want to do, you're not hurting anybody. That's your business. And I may never even say anything to you about it. But Charlie said, we've gone from live and let live to live and let them rule. And I think what you said is the key, is that when people really started being willing to put their foot down and open their mouths is when it affected their children. Because it didn't so much matter then whether or not it was contradictory to what the word says, people just didn't like what their children were being exposed to. You know, a second grader should not be coming home. You know, it was tough enough when I had to explain to a second grader, I haven't had one for a long time, but explain to a young child while some kids have two mommies and some kids have two daddies. But now to have a young child come home

Whether they were Christian or not, but especially Christian parents were willing to be like, no, it's time for me to, you're not gonna rule. I'm, I'm beyond, like Charlie Crux said, I'm beyond just letting you live, but I'm not gonna let you rule and damage, um, you know, my family unit and the, and the future of, of my family in this world. So I do think that we are at a, at a critical point in time now where more people are willing to stay, to stand up. And they're looking for someone like me to share ways within that they can do so. Well, I think it's interesting, you know, when I, I grew up, uh, in the 90s, right? Uh, and I still remember the big innovation was Bill Clinton's Don't Ask, Don't Tell bill when, you know, uh with regard to gays in the military. But I think we had that sort of mentality of tolerance, and it was very much a, hey, listen, yeah, I may not agree with this, but I'm also not going to codify laws that are going to keep you from doing, you know, living your life the way you want to live it. And I think to some degree for um people who had a Christian background, that was satisfactory. Yeah. Right, it was good enough for a while. And, you know, I think you realize that there's only so much laws are gonna do anyway. And so, you know, the only way you're really gonna transform people is through the gospel. And so there were, there was part of that that was like, okay, that's fine. But then we got to this weird point where it's like, well, the government is supposed to be restraining evil. And so we're really pushing the limits of weirdness here. Like it's getting strange. And we may need to push back on that level and kind of rein things back in and say, okay, we're willing to tolerate, but to your point, we're not willing to let somebody just take over and take over the entire sort of mentality. And I think that um it's a really good way of putting it. I, I think we've just got, uh, but I do think there's a critical mass of people. I think it's, it's actually a good litmus test to understand where the tolerance level of people actually is. And evidently it's for a lot of people, it's with their kids. Yeah. So what makes you so passionate about this work right now? I mean, it, it's a, obviously it's a big problem, right? Um, you know, do you think you would have come to it if it, if we hadn't had this sort of resurgence of sort of the woke ideologies and the, you know, the really strange sort of transgender movements and those kind of things? Um, do you think you would have come to it in the same way? Do you think God would have moved you in this direction? Like, what makes you passionate about the work right now? I, I think that I probably would have sprinkled it in. I don't know that I would have changed my podcast focus, thought about writing a book, but I do think that I would have begun to, to, to speak out about it, maybe not in such a concentrated way. But, side of the fact that there's just this rising trend of opposition to God, obviously I, I don't like it, and so I'm passionate about it because of that. But what I'm really passionate about is that if we think about in Genesis, Genesis lays out for us very clear, very clearly what God's original purpose was. He said, I'm going to make man in my image, in my likeness, so that he may have dominion. And the enemy is after that. And I believe that that is one of the primary reasons that we're seeing so much opposition because the enemy is really, really upset with the fact that we have dominion, that we have authority that he no longer has. And he knows, okay, if you're made in God's image and his likeness, think about what the enemy said to Eve, did God really say? And that's exactly what he's saying. Did God really say, you have to marry a man if you're a woman? Did God really say you're a girl? Why can't you be whatever it is that you want to be? You know, you don't have authority. You don't mean anything. And I think that I'm really passionate about people recognizing that there is a reason and there is an agenda at work behind the stuff that we're seeing. This is not stuff that is just happenstance. It is a strategic plan. Now, I won't even get into the fact that I think that there's a lot of governmental stuff and other organizations that are, are tapping in, you know, to push the agenda as well. Sure. But the, but there's, but evil exists for a reason. And it's the fact that the enemy is after the fact that we were made in God's image and his likeness and that we were given dominion. Dominion, Dominion is mentioned 44 times in the Bible for, for a reason. And the enemy is really upset about that. And so I'm really passionate about helping people to pull back the layers of why we're seeing what it is that we're seeing. And hopefully that will give them as much righteous indignation, you know, as I have. But what, you know, one of the things that I, I wanted to mention that I failed to mention when we're talking about like, what are some of the things that we can do? I think it's really important that we remember that we can't change what we don't love, because if we're not willing to approach these conversations of truth with grace, the way Jesus did, we're gonna be at risk of just causing more division. And that's obviously not the point. And so, you know, yes, I want us to take a stand to uphold and protect our values. Yes, I want us to do everything that we can to mobilize other people. And I want to have, but I want to have impact. I want to actually change people's lives and change the trajectory of our nation and our world. But if we're not careful and we don't do it in the right way, then we just, like I said, create more division. And then it kind of defeats the purpose of what it is that we're setting out to do. No, it's a good word. I mean, I think, you know, what comes to my mind as you're talking is, you know, we, we have this sense that we need to confront the world, right? We need to, you know, be pushing back against the world. And I think you're right, doing that in an appropriately loving manner that um reminds the world that they still need Jesus and makes Jesus somewhat compelling, um, you know, presents Jesus in the best possible way that we can, um, is, is really important. I'm wondering, you know, how do you, how do you see, I mean, Jesus was pretty harsh on the religious leaders of his day, right? And obviously part of this problem is, um, you know, we've got people within our Christian circles who are accommodating to some of this. Um, I, I just recently finished up some work on um the German evangelical church at prior to World War II. German evangelical church endorsed Hitler, um, was kind of all in with Nazism, became the national church, and then the confessing church grew out of that as a counter movement saying, we don't agree with what this is. We don't, we don't agree that this is the way we should be. This is, you know, and they kind of spoke against that and resisted in a number of different ways. Do you see us needing to do some of that sort of reforming work in the church as well as we kind of speak with one another and, and ask ourselves, are we really getting too much on board with some of the things that are going on in the country? Oh, you're about to get me started. Absolutely with a capital, capital heck yes. There's so many things that I could say about that, but I'll just say a couple. Number one, um I see a lot of mega church pastors that it just blows my mind just one sliver of thing that they can encourage their people to vote for a party that is putting policies in place that is in direct contradiction to God. It blows my mind. And now I know a lot of it is because we were in a time period where I say, forgive them Lord for they know not what they were doing, but they just wanted anybody other than Trump. And I don't think that they took the time to say, now wait a minute, the person that, the person that you're getting ready to put in office that you're encouraging them to vote for has already shown you when he was vice president, some of the stuff that he stood for. He's already told you some of the stuff that he is going to put in place. And you know that those things are in direct contradiction to what the word of God says. So how can you, um how can you encourage that? I believe that many pastors, I heard someone say recently, there's a difference between little c church and big C church. And I think that oftentimes pastors are afraid to take a stand because what does that mean? Does that mean I'm gonna lose members? Does it mean that I'm gonna lose tithing members? You know, what is that gonna do, you know, to the organization? But I believe that the year of 2024 and probably beyond is going to be a year of shaking where a lot of these places are going to, a lot of these pastors and a lot of these little c churches are gonna fall by the wayside. I don't know all of the ways that it's gonna happen, but I think we're seeing a lot of exposure of what some of these pastors are doing that is not

No, that is willing to pull their shirt tail and go, wait, wait a minute, what are, what are we doing here? So, yeah, that's a very long way of answering it, yes, but absolutely, there's, there's got to be some change, and it's coming whether we want it, whether we like it or not. And I think it's going to be very sad, some of the things that are going to have to happen in order to move some people out of the way. I think COVID started started it, but I think that there's going to be a lot of things that we're going to begin to see more and more of that it's going to be very disheartening. But just like with the children thing, I hate that that the things that are happening to children have to happen, but I'm glad that something happened that is getting many of us to move. And just like I don't ever want to see the demise of any Christian leader, if that's what has to happen to see some reparation reformation come in the body of Christ. There's always casualties in war, unfortunately. Well, I think it's really interesting. I mean, my touch point on this is the United Methodist Church. And I, so I became familiar with that through a family member who's also part of the United Methodist denomination and their church decided to break off. Yeah. After some of the changes that were made. But I think it'll be fascinating to watch. I mean, even if you just look at some of the Hollywood trends of how movies that are sort of virtue signaling and um what we might call woke do, they don't do anywhere near as well as just a movie. Yeah. Um and I have this sense that a lot of this is going to, there are a lot of people are overplaying their hands at this point and they're really overreaching. They've gotten into these positions. They feel like they can make changes, but the reality is the changes they're making won't ever be supported by a broad enough scope of people that are really going to allow those things to flourish. So there's part of me that says, I agree with you. I think some of these things are going to have to crumble and that crumbling is going to be a lamentable, but also be helpful. Yeah. And so you're in this sort of like catch 22 where you don't really want to see people damaged, but at the same time, it's gonna have to take place in order for real change and transformation to come in. So I tend to agree with you. I mean, I think that's It's one of those things where you just kind of sit back and you say, man, it's gonna, it is gonna hurt, I think, for a while. And for those of us who are more conservative minded, you know, biblically based Christians, it's going to be interesting to watch us handle some of this, um, handling it with grace, handling it with truth, and really recognizing, like your pastor did, that these aren't our opinions, that we're ambassadors for the gospel, and how do we do that well? You know, that that comment did raise a question for me. I don't know whether you're familiar with the um the Ligonier Ligonier ministries comes out with a state of theology report every couple of years. Oh, really? I'm not familiar. Really, really fantastic study, but Can you spell that for those of us that might not know exactly? Yeah, I'll actually put it in the, I'll actually put it in the show notes as well, but it's Ligonier, L-I-G-O-N-E-E-R, and it's the state of theology report. I think if people Google just state of theology 2022, they'll find it. But one of the pieces of information in there was, let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. An increase in the number of people who talked about the Bible being their opinion. It was private, not public. And I think that as we move forward, we're gonna have sort of that hill to get over as well. How is it that when we say Jesus is Lord, we're making a real political claim. It's not an opinion. It's actuality. We're leaning into that reality. And, you know, how do we, how do we get people to understand that, the church, and what we say, what we believe from Scripture is reality, not opinion. It's gonna be a fascinating journey. I agree. And it's one of the other statistics that's out that's really unfortunate. So there's a gentleman by the name of George Barna with the, I think it's Arizona State University, or it's a university. Arizona Christian University. Absolutely. And so George Barna puts out these research studies all the time. He did one like on, what are the percentage of people that have returned to church after COVID? Well, he did one on biblical worldview about a year, year and a half ago. And the percentage of senior pastors that have a biblical worldview, it was somewhere in like the 39% range or something really crazy. And youth pastors, it was even lower. So when you talk about what's going on in the world and is there going to have to be reformation, well, if we only have less than half of senior pastors in the United States that have a biblical worldview, most of them are practicing what he refers to as syncretism, where they pull a little bit of good from this and they pull a little bit of good from that. And then, you know, we've got youth pastors that it's like less than that. And that's the, you know, the people that are speaking into our children. Then it's like, well, no wonder that we're, you know, that we're in a space that we're in because the people who are leading us don't even fully believe that, that the Bible is what their worldview should be based on. And, you know, to what I say to that, because I have a friend that is very much so a mixer and I told her, I said, well, salt in and of itself is good and sugar in and of itself is good. But if you put both of those in your tea, you're going to have a hot mess. That's right. You know what I mean? So, so no. You can't just say, well, this part of this worldview and religion is good and this part of Christianity and biblical worldview is good. I'll just practice both of them together and hope that I end up in a great place. Like it doesn't work that way. Stop mixing. Stop mixing. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it goes back to those Old Testament commandments, right? You don't have no other gods beside me. And, you know, God wasn't anticipating us putting a couple other things alongside him and going, okay, we'll serve you for this, but then we've got this God over here for this or this God over here for this. Like, it's a pretty, God calls us to an allegiance. That's pretty complete. And so we do have to watch that. I think, you know, having been through my background in higher education and just watching this over the years has been, my observation has been that oftentimes we're teaching people the what and not the how. Yeah. And we're teaching them what the Bible says, but then by the time we put them out in the world, you know, it's almost like teaching someone what a bike is. Yeah. A bike is a mode of transportation and you can show them pictures of a bike and you can, you know, point out the wheels and the gears and all that. Doesn't mean they know how to ride it. And we're not really teaching people how to ride the Bible in this analogy, you know, and so as they navigated in the world, like they know all these things, the, the that, you know, they know that this is true or that this is true. But then when it comes to actually using it and integrating it within their daily lives and ministries, it gets much tougher. It does. Yeah. I think we saw a lot of it with COVID. I think we saw a lot of it with, we've seen a lot of it over the political spectrum. There's just a, it's difficult to understand how the Bible speaks to our current days and the challenges that we're facing here. And so I hope people will do, you know, at the time of this recording, we're in an election year, a couple of days from now is super Tuesday. And one of the things that I really, really hope that people will do this time around that I don't think they have done in the past is number one, let's not make our voting decision and emotional decision. You're voting for a president, not a pastor. Number two, I wish they would just ask themselves, what are the top two to three things that are important to me? And now let me blindly look at the party and see what candidate has a track record of and is making promises for those areas and vote that way. You know, it's not a time for us to be, oh

I've been a red state ever since I left there, but yeah, it gets a little tricky in Illinois. They do some real interesting things up there. Yeah, they just keep plowing into the, we're a blue state, 100%. So it's interesting to think about how to vote in Illinois. And so I totally get that. I think it does need to be an unemotional decision and we really need to consider, you know, what we care about when we're voting and ultimately what the candidate can actually do. I think that's always a difficult part for me is, you know, some of these issues that candidates tend to make promises on, I'm not sure that they can actually affect. They can influence, they can push, but we really need almost like a civics lesson to understand how all this stuff works. And, you know what I mean? It's like, so, you know, it can't just be, hey, let's vote for the president we want, and then it'll all be okay. You've got to kind of watch the House and the Senate too, because they have something to do with what gets done. And so it's a really concerted effort if we want to move that governmental machinery forward. And I think we've got to attend to it on local, state and obviously federal levels. So, well, you know, as we get toward the end here, here's my, I guess my last question. You know, we talked a lot about politics. We talked a lot about, you know, some of the problems in the church as Christians, you know, obviously we're supposed to be building the body of Christ, right? That's our primary concern. And so how central is, you know, not Bible study, not prayer, not, you know, those individual things I know are really important, but how central do you see the local congregation being to all of this? I think it's very important. I think it gives you an opportunity to find people that hopefully believe like you believe, and you guys can make some decisions together of what are things that can be done, whether it's on a small group level, maybe it's at a church level that you guys can decide for, you know, what is the one thing that we want to pick for this quarter or this, you know, half of the year or year or whatever, and really and really get behind, you know, maybe it's supporting a nonprofit that's in, that's in your area. Um, but I, I think it's, I think it's very, very important that we are involved in a local church, just like we're involved in the local levels of everything else that we get involved in. We get involved in industry associations. We get involved in, you know, things that are an interest. God knows that if I hear pickleball, the word pickleball one more time, I might just stab my eyeballs out. Um, but I think it's, I think it's very important. However, I think it's important that you're at the right local assembly. If you are under the leadership of a pastor that won't ever say anything one way or the other about what is going on in the world, um, I think that you should question whether or not you're under the right leadership because there are things that are going on all around us that we can't ignore. And I'm not saying that, you know, you, that has to be the focus, you know, every, every Sunday. But when something major happens, if they're never mentioning it, they're never talking about like what you should know, what you shouldn't know, what the Bible says about it, what it is that they themselves as a leader in the community plans to do about it. Then I would question what your own desires are and whether or not you're in the right leadership that is going to help support that. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, we, we live where we live, right? We live in this context. And so the Bible should be applicable to the context we're living in. It almost has to touch real life at some point. And so we've got to, we've got to allow it to do that. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, very good. Well, I know you've got a free resource for kind of taking people further. Talk us through that a little bit and, uh, tell us where people can get it. Absolutely. So if you're a man, this resource is not for you. So just follow me on Instagram at a God shift. Um, all of the strategies, all the different things that I talk about, all the things that I post on Instagram are available for everybody. However, if you are a female leader that is listening to this, maybe you're leading in ministry, maybe you're leading in marketplace, maybe you're leading wherever the heck it is that you lead. It doesn't really matter to me, but I want you to take the kingdom trailblazer quiz because remember I'm raising up this army of women that is going, that is interested in upholding values. It's interested in advancing the purposes of God and they want to learn ways that they can mobilize other people. The very first thing that you have to do is determine what type of trailblazer are you. There are three. So if you take the kingdom trailblazer quiz, number one, it's going to tell you what type of kingdom trailblazer you are. And then you're going to begin to get specific next steps that would be relevant for you based on your, your trailblazer type. And so they can go to kingdom trailblazer quiz.com. Again, that'll tell them what type of trailblazer they are, begin to give them specific next steps for their type. And when they get their results, they will also be given an invitation to join my free online community where I do a lot of training in there. It's free. It will always be free. I don't care if you listen to this podcast in 3024, that group will always be free as long as I'm alive, it will still be there. It'll still be free, but it's just a place for you to, you know, be in proximity of other women who are, you know, want to take a stand for the same mission. And like I said in there, I provide a training every week. I provide free resources every week and it's about things that not only do we need to know if we're serious about upholding Christian values ourselves, but I'm also equipping you of like, how do you have tough conversations with people that don't believe like you believe, you know, all the different things that you can imagine would be applicable. So again, it's kingdom trailblazer quiz.com. Men, please don't take the quiz. I know there's going to be at least one of y'all that are going to do it anyway. And I keep stopping from taking the quiz, but I won't let you in the Facebook group. Um, but anybody can, anybody can learn from what it is I do on Instagram at a God shift. Um, but women take the kingdom trailblazer quiz, kingdom trailblazer quiz.com. Very cool. Yeah. Men stay away. Um, go to Instagram instead. What's your Instagram handle? They will go to the page and at the top it says ladies in big letters and the text underneath it says God is commissioning women in this hour. What makes you take the quiz? I will say I looked at it before our episode. I went to your website and was looking around and I was tempted, but I didn't, I didn't end up doing it. So even though it said ladies, I was like, Oh, I should know what this is about if we're going to talk. I mean, I, you know, but I'm like, no, it's for ladies. I'm going to leave it. I'm gonna leave it alone. Um, so what is your Instagram handle for everybody? What's your website? The website is a God shift. The Instagram is a God shift. I made it super simple. So men, you're welcome to follow me on Instagram and learn everything that I have put there. But if you take the quiz, I'm going to be giving you the side eye. Well, we'll have all that available in the show notes as well, so you don't have to remember it or scribble it down right now, but we'll have it in the show notes. Shana, it was a pleasure talking to you. Um, I love the way your ministry has shifted. Um, I'm really pleased to hear the, the interest and passion you have in, uh, principalities. And uh it was just a pleasure talking with you about these issues. So thanks for coming back on the show. It was my pleasure. Thank you. All right, everybody. We will catch you on the next episode of thinking Christian. Thanks for being here. I just want to take a second to thank the team at life audio for their partnership with us on the thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Dedicating time each day to spend feeding our minds and our hearts the truth of God's word is immensely helpful in our growth as followers of Christ. I'm John Stonge and each day I host a show called daily devotions with pastor John. On the show, I spend just a few minutes taking an applicational look at one or two verses of scripture before coming to the Lord in prayer. If you'd like to make a habit of spending more time meditating on the truth of God's word, you can listen to daily devotions with pastor John at lifeaudio.com or on your favorite podcasting app.