How to Improve Your Relationships with Love and Respect: A Conversation with Emerson Eggerichs

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian, where I'm going to be continuing my interview with Emerson Egerich, and we're just going to continue talking about love and respect in marriage. And hopefully, this will be an enriching conversation for all of you. I know it certainly was for me. So without further ado, here's today's episode. All right, everybody. Welcome back. We're here talking about love and respect. And I left off just asking the question. So I know, again, when my wife and I went through this, and I hope it's okay, I'm getting sort of your take on how my wife and I experienced this, but I was hoping it would be kind of an interesting way to walk through the book. I remember specifically thinking to myself, okay, if we're going to do the love and respect thing, if we're really going to work on me loving her and her respecting me, part of what I'm going to need to do is try to figure out how to manage my feelings when I feel disrespected. I know she's trying to respect me. And so I need to, on some level, figure out how to, yeah, just control myself, not to react, but to be a little bit more, maybe, bounded in my own emotions, right? So that I wasn't always just sort of responding with a lack of love, but that I was recognizing her intent and her desire to respect me, even if I felt disrespected. Does that make sense? Oh, absolutely. And I mean, that's a sign of your maturation and your godliness to really want to make that a focus. Some people don't. They'll hear the crazy cycle without love. She reacts without respect. Without respect, he reacts without love, and they'll assign blame. We wouldn't get on the crazy cycle if you were more respectful. Well, we wouldn't get on the crazy cycle if you were more loving. And once we start pointing fingers, once you start pointing fingers, then, as I always say, you're probably more the reason for the problems in the marriage because your whole mindset is blame placing and self-justification. And the first sin after the first sin with Adam and Eve was blame placing. Adam says, the woman you gave me. He only knew two beings, Eve and the Lord, and he blamed both of them in one sentence for his sin. And then she blames the serpent. And so the first sin after the first sin is blame placing, and we're geniuses at this. I'm a genius at being able to blame Sarah. She is responsible for my lack of love. But once you go down that road and you recognize it, that's not going to go anywhere. It's just going to put them on the defensive, or we're just going to spin on the crazy cycle more and more. At the same time, how do I deal with those emotions, to your question now, when, you know, she, in fact, was disrespectful? She said something, you know, you're just like your father, you know? I mean, and it came out and she knew it was wrong, but she said it anyway. Or, you know, well, you're just like your mother. And we get nasty. You know, I mean, Sarah once chased me around the house with my love and respect book, pointing a finger, saying, what would you say to her husband treating his wife the way you're treating me right now? And I said, that's not fair. I just wrote the book. I don't do this stuff. No, so, you know, we all have, we have these moments where, you know, we just want to blame and we want to point fingers. And you're saying, hey, you know what? I knew that wasn't healthy. And I always say, we're not going to do this perfectly. And so there's got to be kind of giving some grace, but not too much grace. Some of us can take advantage of that and justify our own negativity. But now to your question, there comes a moment when Sarah and I, and this is one of our axioms, and the axiom is this, my response is my responsibility. My response is my responsibility. And we've locked into that. And then it continues. My response is my responsibility. Sarah does not cause me to be unloving. She reveals me as unloving. It's my choice. Apart from physical torture on a cross, for instance, I mean, the Lord's going to give us some grace if I scream at Sarah as she whacks a nail through me, okay? But almost all, all marital conflict is social ostracism. All it is is social ostracism. It's an emotional, social issue that is not the result of some evil individual. It's the result of our spouse that we're committed to and actually, most of the time, you know, enjoy. So now we have this conflict where she's dissing me or it feels that way. So how do I contain my emotions? Well, I've got to lock into this idea that she doesn't cause me to be this way. This is my issue. Even though it's affecting me, she's not controlling me. And in fact, I'm really free. I'm free. I am free. Sarah does not control me. And at first I was intimidated by that. But as I've meditated over the years on this, my response is my responsibility. It means I'm free. Sarah can't control me. She can affect me, but she can't control me. So it's my choice. And that became tremendously intimidating at first, but tremendously liberating later on. So once we lock into that, then I can say to Sarah, and I've said many times, honey, if I was like Jesus, if I was perfect, if I could walk on water, but I can't. And I'm not saying this as an excuse. I'm reacting negatively here. I'm feeling this. I'm feeling like that was said disrespectfully to me. I need some help here. If I was like Jesus, bullets would bounce off me like candy. Bullets would bounce off me like candy. But I'm not like Jesus, and I need some help here. But that kind of tone and that kind of language then softens her a little bit. I'm saying, I'm struggling with what just happened here. Can you help me with my feelings? And we've got a basic rule of engagement we call it. She doesn't dismiss me by saying, well, that's just because you're so un-Christlike. You're such a childish individual. She does not come back at me and tell me I ought not to feel that way. So one of the rules of engagement we've had is we trust the spirit of the other person, given that they're not pointing fingers. I'm saying, I wish I could be perfect. But here's what you just said or what just happened here. I'm just telling you I'm vulnerable. I shouldn't be vulnerable. I wish I was not vulnerable, but I am. And I even wrote the book, okay? And so, too, Sarah on the other side can say, you know, I was, you know, this just felt so unloving to me. I can't believe that you're not listening to me. What? I can't believe you're not listening to me. I try to joke, and that doesn't go over too well. So there is this tension, though, where she then gives voice to this. You're an honorable man. I think I show you respect as much as I can, but can you help me right now? And I don't say to her, oh, grow up. No, we don't do that. So we try to then allow for the other to give voice to that vulnerability. The other doesn't pass judgment. So if two people together like you and your wife are doing that, it just works. It just is powerful, and it works. But it's a real tribute to you that you're saying, you know what? I was still personalizing some of this, but I knew I had to control it. So now my question to you, James, what did you do? How did you proceed on this based on some of the information I just divulged? Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Tell me what you did. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I think a lot of this emerged for me out of work. And so at the time we were sort of going through your book and trying to work on these things in our marriage, I was also going through some executive coaching. And that executive coach was really trying to get me to interact with colleagues and the people that I was overseeing differently. And, you know, I

I knew it wasn't going to go well. I'd asked for it. You know, I'm not I'm not sure I'm ready to have this conversation right now. Could you give me 10 minutes and I'll we can circle back to it. You know, I would really try that. I was a little bit more. I think just in general, I was a little bit hotter than my wife. You know, I was a little more prone to anger. And so I would get on the defensive and I would get angry. I wasn't mean, but I was definitely winning the fight. Right. And so I was trying to win the fight. And so I needed to get out of that moment where I was feeling defensive and really wanted to win the fight and recognize that my wife was not my enemy, that the only way to win the fight was for us to end on the same page together, not for me to get her to where I wanted her to be, you know. And so I think that practice of taking the break and my wife allowing me that time to just kind of take a moment and like process and, you know, decompress a bit and then come back around to the situation was probably the best thing that we did. Definitely the best thing I did. And now I find that my interval for that is much shorter. Since I've practiced it over the years, it's just, you know, it's moved from like 10 minutes to maybe two minutes, you know. And if I really need to take a minute, I can take just a minute and be back and ready to go. And so it's a habit that I think has really paid off from a character perspective over the years of our marriage. Oh, I think that's absolutely outstanding because it is exactly what I recommend due to what I'd referenced earlier. When we get into a heated exchanges with our wives, the heartbeats of the man gets to 99 beats per minute. She can't imagine this. She can't imagine what, because we're warriors, we're the one, that physiological reaction is what comes over us when we throw ourselves in front of someone who's trying to hurt our wives. You know, she's not going to have that same protective impulse. It's just in us. And so when that gets triggered, then our heartbeats get to 99 beats per minute. We're in warrior mode. We don't consciously think that's what's going on. We just know I, this thing's going to escalate if I don't disengage. It's going to get out of control. We did that with our buddies when we were younger. And what we do when we're younger, you know, we get into this heated moment where we say, drop it, forget it. And we walk away from each other because the relationship is more important than the issue on the table. That's just part of the honor code. And this is part of what I give voice to that women don't understand that. Two sisters come at each other because they need to bring it what they call full circle. And they feel very comfortable in the ocean of emotion. The University of Washington refers to it as. And so they'll start talking and venting. And it looks like they're going to get into a fight. And then the one said, well, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that. No, I was really horrible. I was really bad. Will you forgive me? Yeah, I forgive you. But will you forgive me? Yes, I do. And then they'll hug and then they'll wipe away the tears. And then one is witty. She'll say something. The other's laughing and they're just having a great time until tomorrow when it happens again. And so there is this comfort. And so they can't imagine why you and I would just walk away. And so to them, that feels so unloving. It feels like, you know, fingernails down a chalkboard. It's just so it's just beyond comprehension to them. So you, one, got in tune with your need to do that. If she gave you the grace to do that. And I said to one, you've got to let him do that. Now, what happens with some men, they say, well, once I'm calmed down, I don't need to talk about it. No, no. She needs to talk about it. Right. You've got to come back. And but I always say, come back after 15 minutes and but keep it on one point because, ladies, you're going to want to say one more thing because now he's listening to you. He's calmed down. He's been he's open with you. And one more thing. This is not this is not when you pile on. Keep it to the one issue and then see this not as duration, but as frequency. If you allow the man to feel like this works, then he'll come back tomorrow again for 15 minutes. But if he feels like this is going to go on now for the next hour and a half while you feel you've got his attention and I can just dump because I've been sitting on this for three weeks and I can't sit on it anymore. I'm going to explode. And this is the common expression women and it is there is a physiological buildup in her, but it comes out through talking with the man she loves so she can be reassured that he apologizes and everything's good. She feels connected. She's back in the presence and life is good. OK, but what happens if you do too much of that during that conversation? He'll just say, I'm not coming back. I'm not coming back. We encourage and I coach people on this. But apart from that point, I think coming back to your idea, that's exactly right. Once we have that break and now we begin to realize, wait a minute, she's not my enemy. We are allies. And I say to people, we've got to remind each other, look, we don't like each other maybe right now, but we're allies. We're friends. We're not enemies and we're not here to nuke each other. We're not. Let's not go nuclear. That's not going to make any point other than just devastate the other person. And so Sarah and I will remind, remember, we're allies here. We're on the same team. We have a difference here. We don't like each other at this moment, but that's just a minor issue compared to the larger issue that we're teammates and we're just arguing about how we're going to score the next basket. And so that metaphor is very important, particularly for men. But I think, you know, you are to be applauded for having discerned this and acted on this. If I could coach every man, this would be one of the major areas I'd coach him on that you've discovered and then help her give him that break. Because what happens, many wives chase him around the house. You talk to me. Don't you walk away from me. And this just provokes him because this is not what his buddy does. His buddy doesn't say, James, come back here and talk to me. That's never happened. That's never happened in the history of the world. So it's foreign to him and he doesn't understand this. But once we give language to this and establish these rules of engagement, this is why I say comes back to this mutual misunderstanding that this particular dynamic, she seeks to do the caring thing by confronting and he seeks to do the honorable thing at times by withdrawing. And and so neither one are wrong. They're just different. And until they understand that, though, it's just the opposite. He feels that she's confronting because she's trying to show him contempt. And she feels that he's hostile toward her when he's just trying to do the honorable thing. And they completely misunderstand. She's caring, not contemptuous. He's honorable and not hostile. Yeah, those are good. This is really helpful. I mean, and very affirming. But I think I want to take one more break and I want to kind of switch gears when we come back. And I want to talk about the pink blue divide and maybe how you're seeing people receive this message differently in this new context since you've written the book. I mean, a lot of things have changed, obviously, culturally. And so I'm just kind of I'm interested to see if you've noticed any difference in the way people receive this, how you have to communicate it so that you have so that they understand it. You know, those kind of issues when we come back from our second break here. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed with inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty? More families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And then you're finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text guide to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text guide to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed with inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty? More families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And then you're finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to

Differentiate men and women. We shouldn't assume that respect in a marriage maybe seems like domineering in a marriage. I tend to see a lot more of those kind of ideas popping up when I just work with people at church or do ministry out in the world. How is it affecting the way people receive love and respect? How do you deal with some of those issues? Maybe you don't have to, but I'm kind of assuming you do. So what are your thoughts on that? No, I think we see the cultural effect, and we see these attitudes that you're giving voice to. It's interesting that I have not been blasted. There doesn't seem to be that attack. There are voices out there that are concerned about things that, the implication of the message or whatever, respecting a man, he doesn't deserve that respect, he hasn't earned it. My campaign has always been with people of goodwill, like my mom and dad, that I talk about the conflicts. I said, I'm here to help people of goodwill. I've got a burden, a passion to help people like my mom. If somebody had spoken to my mom and dad the way that I'm trying to speak to other people, I would not have grown up in the environment that I grew up in. I perhaps wouldn't have been sent to military school. So I spoke to 17,000 students or however many at the University of Liberty on the wounded healer. I spoke in the combo on the wounded healer, and I talk about this story. So my preface always has been, here's who I'm trying to serve. If you're not in that camp, you know. But yeah, I mean, obviously we see the difference between biological sex and gender identity and the whole— having my PhD in family studies, I understand the gender fluidity issue, that there are no gender distinctions. You're not born with any—I get all of that. But I am a Christ follower. I love Jesus Christ. And Jesus said, have you not read? He who made them from the beginning made them male and female. Matthew 19.4. And he's referencing Genesis. I was not raised in a Christian home. I didn't know Jesus. But when I came to Christ, he changed me, forgave me. So as best I can, I align with him. But why? Well, because I believe he's the Lord of Lords, and he's revealed truth. And so I say to people who may be resisting it, even the use of the pink and blue, I get that. Many women feel they're dismissing. Ultimately, that's going to dismiss women as lesser and weaker. We don't like the pink and blue analogy. We don't like that. And I say, I get that. But I'm trying to then just use it as a word picture to say, is the person you're married to different from you? And if they're different, do they need to change to be like you? And there are people who believe that, that I'm the normal one, my spouse is abnormal. And I said, if you send the message you're the normal one and they're abnormal, come back and talk to me in about two or three years because I'm going to tell you, they could be abnormal, but that's a whole different issue. But if you're telling them they're abnormal when they're just trying to do the loving and the respectful thing and they're really filled with goodwill, come back to me when what you've been doing isn't working. And at that point in time, the people that I serve are the people who are finally waking up saying, you know what? He said to me all along that I was disrespecting him, and I just dismissed that because he hadn't earned the respect. He didn't deserve it. He needed to love me more. I needed to be the one who was respected and loved. Yeah, you can stay on message, but how effective was that, particularly if he was a goodwill guy who would literally die for you, and you are continually saying these things. And so my ministry has really been about people who've said, you know what? I think I've got new ears to listen to you now. And I just want healing in my relationship. I'm not trying to, you know, and I think I understand your answer. You're not trying to be dogmatic, because I always say there are some women in our, even our research, women need more respect in the relationship and the men need more love. And I said, I'm not out to argue against that, but you're probably still in the crazy cycle, right? Oh, absolutely. Okay, well, then still, nonetheless, let's figure out ways to bring about a greater harmony between the two of you so you feel like you're on the same team, that you're enjoying each other, that you're friends, and that you're not letting these things derail you so that the call of Christ on your life. And in fact, James, I'll say to people, do you believe, particularly in the believing community, do you believe that Jesus Christ joined you together because Jesus said they joined together, that the two shall become one, that God joined you together? Do you believe that God joined you together? Almost every couple that I've ever talked to will say in those early days, yes, absolutely. But now we are questioning it. Well, why? Because, well, we're having all these conflicts and we must have made a mistake. And then I begin to unpack. I mean, even when Focus on the Family spent $50,000 to survey the long-term impact of the Love and Respect message, Jim Daly and I were talking about one of the stats that 60% of those people who had been divorced or were filing for divorce called off the divorce or reconciled. Now, the sample was not large because not that many people are coming, but 60% of those who had divorced, who came for whatever reason to the divorce, both divorced, but they came. Probably their dad said, you're not getting inheritance money unless both of you come. I don't know how they got there, but then you have the people who had filed for divorce, and it's kind of like they've said to me, you're our last chance. If this doesn't work, this conference, then we're following through on our final favorite. So I said, whoa, you just made me responsible for this marriage, but okay, I'm game. But 60%, James, 60% called off, and they realized, yes, yes. It doesn't mean that there wasn't adultery. It doesn't mean that there weren't a lot of people. But I take them back farther. Did it start that way? I said, when Sarah and I met, I didn't say to Sarah, you know, I hate you and you hate me, so let's get married. It doesn't go down that way. It doesn't go down that way. So I say, in those initial weeks and months, there was basic goodwill. True or false? Yes. Do you believe you started having conflict due to honest misunderstanding, not due to ill will? Yes. Okay, so then let's go back and see if we can figure out that you both kind of misunderstood each other. And if I can help you understand those earlier days, will you give me a chance? And we've seen the positive results of that. So my message has been to those people, when you hit a wall and you've tried everything on your own and it didn't work, please reconsider what I'm saying. And please don't dismiss this message as simplistic by saying, well, we women need respect. Absolutely. I write a whole chapter in the book on women needing honor, esteem, and respect. Well, but her husband says he needs love. Absolutely. I write a whole chapter on his need for love. I'm not that truncated. I'm not that dumb. Right. No, and I think, you know, when I read through your book, I definitely see the balance of it. And I had this, this is the second conversation I've had in the last few weeks where I had Nancy Piercy on. She wrote a book called The Toxic War Against Masculinity. And one of the things she raises in there is the research related to men who are attending church, who are more committed to their faith. I would almost equate it to what you're saying, these people of goodwill. They actually do have better marriages. It's the nominal Christians, the folks who are just sort of taking the pieces of the Bible that they want and using them however they feel like who are actually having the poorer marriages. And so I just really appreciate your distinction with the people of goodwill, that this needs to be good intention, that this can't be domineering, that this needs to be something that you and your wife or your spouse do as a way to love and respect one another and to really have a flourishing marriage. So, yeah, I love that answer, really appreciate it. Well, and I would say scripturally, 1 Corinthians 7, 28, Paul says, if you marry, you have not sinned, but you will have trouble. And so there is a special challenge it brings. It doesn't mean there's sin. It just means that there will be these, and two are better than one in that sense. And so there is a friction that is important to create better decision-making. Our whole government is based on the three forms because they wanted that debate because better decisions are made. So that trouble is not a bad thing. It actually be a good thing. But then he goes on to say in 33 and 34, the husband is concerned about how to please his wife, and the wife is concerned about how to please her husband. And that's the basic text, James, that I use for the goodwill. That's how I interpret that. Paul pin Romans is a great treatise on total depravity. He never denied the fact that we're sinful, that we're in need of a savior, that there's an inherent flaw within us. But he didn't say all your problems are due to sin. I mean,

33 and 34. And in translating that into the vernacular, do they have basic goodwill? And I have been blown away, just as you've referenced, how many people surface this by saying, thank you for reminding me of that. Yeah, yeah. It's so crucial. I mean, I think if we start to assign ill will to the other person, it starts to become a battle as opposed to a partnership. And we just sort of begin to lose perspective. And so I think one of the things that I've had to figure out, both again in sort of marriage and in work, is how to cultivate a real care and curiosity for what another person is thinking. And just to avoid sort of the idea that this person is my adversary and I've got to figure out some way to subvert them. I think that was my natural tendency, but I've had to sort of really dial that back and say, no, this person is actually expressing something they truly care about. And if I assume good intent and let them prove good intent, maybe this will turn out better. And so I think it's a really important message for not only husbands and wives, but man, for our public discourse, for, you know, so many other things that we're dealing with right now. Yes. Well, and I say, you know, and one of the points I made along that line, that line of thinking, when Sarah comes at me negatively about something that's upsetting her, my interpretation of that, she's pointing out to me that I'm failing, rather than she's really appealing to me to help her succeed, the relationship to succeed, that she's needing the strength from me, she's needing something. It's a compliment, not a complaint, as I say. And it's very important that we hear what we think is a complaint as really a compliment, that Sarah has a need that only I can meet, but she's coming to me and my first reaction is, she's pointing a finger at me that I'm inadequate, that I'm not succeeding at this, that I'm failing, rather than seeing that this is really a need that she has. And the same thing when a man comes to his wife and says, boy, it's really hard when you dismiss me, particularly in front of the kids. I feel like you're cutting me off at the knees. And so she's now hearing that you're putting me down. You're telling me that I'm a bad mother, that I'm a bad wife. Or no, could it be that he's just saying, I have a need that only you can meet and can we renegotiate how we are going to parent? Because I'm vulnerable and I have a need for your strength because I feel vulnerable during these moments. And once we give that benefit of the doubt, that they are needing something from us that only we could meet, rather than pointing out to us that we've utterly, absolutely failed to meet the need that they have, it turns things a little bit of a more positive way. And that's been very helpful to me in my relationship with Sarah. Well, we're about out of time. I didn't want to end the program though without letting you have a chance to talk a little bit. I know we've talked a lot about the book, but you've really built out a lot more than the book at loveandrespect.com. And so as people have listened to this, maybe they're thinking, hey, I'd really love to get some help with this with my spouse. What are, you know, talk through some of the resources that you've got available for folks that you think they'd be, that would be good for them to plug into if they're interested in helping to, you know, build their marriage. Oh yeah. I mean, well, I'm more excited now than ever. And on our new website, loveandrespect.com, we just really have done the whole thing hitting three major topics. Marriage, which is what we've been talking about, Ephesians 5.33, which Sarah and I've been doing. But the second major topic is parenting. I got my PhD in Family Studies, did my dissertation on effective fathering, but I waited to address that until my children were adults so that they could now speak into these issues. So the parenting topic, the good, the bad, and the ugly of that, but we talk a great deal about that on the website. And then I pastored for those 20 years. I've got 800 sermons that all have been digitized. And I remember studying many years ago, oh man, this is a nugget. I didn't even include that nugget that really affected my heart, but it had nothing to do with the sermon for that Sunday. So I put it in the margins and I say, when I'm older, I'm coming back to that. Well, I'm older and I'm coming back to that. So we have this whole third component called the faith. And what I've learned over the years as a pastor, things that have been very meaningful. I just did a, we have a thing called, Ask Emerson, on pastor, what if I misread God's will? What should I do? I mean, that was one of the most common questions asked to me. And so I share what I did pastorally with people and how that has, that content has been very meaningful to me. How do we discern God's unique will? And what if we misread it and what do we do? That would just be one among hundreds of topics that we're addressing on the website. So this is where I'm landing for the next 20 years. I'm more pumped now than ever, more excited now than ever. And if they would check it out and we're even, we're going to be improving it. I'm going to create tracks for the premarried, the newlywed, what I call the drifters, or those with children, those without children, those in midlife crisis. So we're going to have these tracks because there's an overwhelming amount of information, 700 articles, 130 podcasts that have had about 300, three and a half million downloads. We've got the Ask Emerson things. We've got the videos. We've got the courses. The whole Love and Respect course seminar course is available. So, but it's too much. So we'll try to take people by the hand, take people by the hand so they don't, because people are going to say, I'm bound to see something that's going to shame me. So I'm not good. I'm not even going to go close to this thing. You're going to point out somewhere, somehow that I'm a complete failure. And so I'm not hearing you. Well, very cool, man. I, I mean, it's the perils of having too much content. So I can't say I sympathize, but I have looked at loveandrespect.com and it really looks fantastic. The new website is beautiful and the resources there are just amazing. So I would just encourage anybody who's listening. If you're interested in building your marriage up, if you're interested in making some changes, you and your wife, you and your husband go to loveandrespect.com and you will find something there, whether it's the book or a video course, or even just a podcast or some of the other things that Emerson's doing, I'd encourage you to check them out. And Emerson, again, thanks so much for being here. This has been a fantastic conversation and really appreciate you and your work and just grateful for your ministry. Oh no, thank you. Beautiful interview. You did a superb job. A plus plus. Thank you very much. Well, hey everybody, we'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian and we are going to close it out right now. But again, thanks, Emerson. Thanks everybody for listening and we'll catch you on the next episode. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Hey there, it's Nicole Eunice, host of the How to Study the Bible podcast, where every single week we join together to encounter God through his word. You can subscribe at lifeaudio.com.