How Love and Respect Can Improve Our Relationships: A Conversation with Emerson Eggerichs, Pt. 1

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I am joined today, and I'm excited to have on as a guest, Emerson Eggerichs. Emerson wrote a book, which my wife and I actually went through earlier on in our marriage, Love and Respect. He and his wife started Love and Respect in 1999, and that's still going. You can check out all the resources. He's got a lot of resources, a lot of new videos, blogs, podcasts, all that kind of fun stuff, over at loveandrespect.com. And in addition to that, you know, he's been a, he was a pastor for about 20 years in East Lansing, Michigan. And so, really full life of ministry. And Emerson, as I was looking at your, you know, I was reading back through Love and Respect and just prepping for the interview. I remembered that you also went to Wheaton College. And so, we have actually that in common. I did my master's at Wheaton College back in the day. So, really lovely to have you on the program. And I'm excited to have a conversation with you. So, thanks for being on. Oh, no, that's great. It's great to know you're a Wheaties, and so is Sarah, my wife. That's where I met Sarah, back in those early days. I think the horse and buggy was just on its way out. When were you there? Would it have been in the 70s or? Yeah, 69. Freshman year of 69. And that's when I entered and she came in in 70. And so, those were our years and very exciting for us. I was a new believer in Christ. I had just come to Christ two years before at a Billy Graham film called For Pete's Sake. I was at a military school from eighth grade to 12th grade because of family issues. So, I was at Missouri Military Academy, went to this Liberty Theater, heard about Christ. I didn't know this. And I received Christ into my life and I was headed toward West Point. I met with my congressman, the president of the academy can make recommendations. But when I found Christ, Billy Graham, I found out, went to Wheaton. I didn't know any of this stuff. And I thought Billy and I were the only two that knew what was happening. And so, I applied to Wheaton and I was accepted. But that's another story, but that gives you a little background on Wheaton. No, it's actually pretty fantastic. I actually was, I actually went out for West Point as well. So, that's a... Oh, is that right? Yeah, I did. When I was looking at colleges, they came to a recruiting event and I was like, well, this could be interesting. So, I actually went all the way through and ended up being accepted and then just decided that probably the military wasn't for me. I had a little bit of a rebellious streak and I didn't know, I didn't really feel like that having that beaten out of me when I first went to college. So, I opted out. But yeah, West Point. And I'm actually close, I think, to the Missouri Military Academy or some version of it. Is it near Columbia, Missouri? Is that right? Yeah, yeah. Mexico, Missouri. Yeah, yeah. Very few people, very few people. Yeah, people don't know about that. But where are you then? I live in O'Fallon, Illinois, which is on the Illinois side of St. Louis to the east. But I make the trip over to Kansas City an awful lot. And so, they've got a series of billboards there that talk about the Missouri Military Academy. And so, yeah, some pretty cool, just some cool kind of get to know you connections there for us. Yeah, yeah. I was there five years, five years of my life. Yeah. Wow. Very cool. Well, let's dig into, you know, sort of, like I said, my wife and I read the book, Love and Respect, when we were probably five years into our marriage, I think. You know, we were starting to have just the normal kind of disagreements and frustrations that a young married couple has. And my wife heard about your book, I think, on the radio. And so, she picked up two copies for us and we read through it and found it to be really amazing. And so, for those of you, for those in the audience who maybe aren't as familiar with Love and Respect, would you just mind walking through kind of the basics of, you know, the craziness cycle and, you know, what it looks like to do love and respect in a marriage? Yeah, no, that's an excellent question. In fact, you know, one of the points I make is many couples have these tensions and conflicts due to honest misunderstandings. There's not a lack of goodwill. You and your wife did not lack goodwill, but you're five years, six years into the marriage and somebody can be 30 years into the marriage. And many of these conflicts, I take the position, if there's basic goodwill, you know, they're not committing adultery, they're not lying, they're not selling cocaine, you know. Right, right, right. And so, given there's basic goodwill, but we're having these ongoing tensions, I've been encouraged through my research and these years of doing this that oftentimes these things arise because of what we call a pink and blue difference. And even though that word picture is upsetting to some, it's really a word picture that each of us looks at it through our upbringing, our, you know, gift mix, our talents, our interests, our passion, our gender. There are a whole set of things. But at the end of the day, she looks at things differently than he does. And the question is, are both wrong on that or just different? And we're coming at it from different angles. But this creates resentments. You know, we feel devalued. We've said to them many times, please listen to me. You're not hearing me. And we end up getting into these conflicts. And so that is a backdrop. And because my mom and dad divorced when I was one, then they remarried a year later. But then I saw my dad attempt to strangle my mother to death when I was two and a half. I never surfaced that until after he had died years later. And mom said, you were too little to remember that. And then I described what I saw. And I said, is that what happened? And she said, yes. And I said, well, I apparently wasn't too little. But then dad committed adultery. I was then sent to military school. I come to Christ at age 16 at this film. And I go off to Wheaton in my freshman year. My mom comes to Christ. My sister, who's five years older, came to Christ. My brother-in-law, who's a professor, came to Christ. And then my dad came to Christ. Everybody came to Christ my freshman year and our family changed. My mom started speaking for Christian women's clubs. Dad would drive her telling their testimony. But that woundedness was there in me. But I've reflected over the years, so much of the conflict was due to this honest misunderstanding. It's not ill will. There wasn't evil intent. And even though there were very traumatic things, dad didn't make a habit. Dad was not in the habit of doing what he did, but he obviously wounded mom. She shut down. She closed off. But as I watched them over the years as a little kid, I'm thinking, this is not the kinds of tensions that they had were over money, management of money, this and that. And so part of my pastoral study, when I came across, back to your now question about love and respect, when I landed on Ephesians 5, which is considered the greatest treatise in the New Testament on marriage by most, that summary statement in verse 33, Paul kind of summarized. He said, husbands must love their wives and wives must respect their husbands. And I've got my PhD in family studies from Michigan State University. I was pastoring there in East Lansing where Michigan State is. And I realized no one would debate the fact that a husband ought to love his wife. The debate was respecting a man. You don't respect a man unless he deserves it, unless he's earned it. But I thought there must be something here. And having gone to military school, men serve and die for honor. You and I die for honor. Honor is a huge thing. We're motivated by honor. In fact, Shanti Feldhahn, good friend and researcher, asked the American male, the decision analysts out of Houston, asked the American male as a random sample, 400 American men, and then did it again because they were blown away by the study. But the question was asked, would you men rather be left alone and unloved in the world or be viewed as inadequate and disrespected by everyone? Would you men rather be left alone and unloved in the world or be viewed as inadequate and disrespected by everyone? Almost 75% of the men said they'd rather be left alone and unloved. And so the question then is, why do men find respect and honor and being inadequate in their field so important? Because of narcissism? That's how it's filtered by some. Not when you die, you know,

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And I thought, ah, here was the illumination and now I'll kind of come to the answer to your question. Long way of getting around to it. I thought, well, when Sarah feels unloved, she negatively reacts. I know that. I see it. But you know what? When she does, I feel disrespected. That's how I'm filtering it. I'm filtering it through. And I think, I wonder if that's why the Lord is saying to Sarah, be guarded here, Sarah. When you negatively react and you feel unloved, you're going to be interpreted by Emerson as disrespectful. Unfair to you, Sarah. He should get it. He should be smarter than he is. He's educated beyond his intelligence. I get that. But nonetheless, he should not be interpreting you as disrespectful, but he is. And then I thought to myself, I don't question Sarah's love even when she's upset with me. I just don't think she likes me or respects me. And I end up stonewalling. 85% of those who withdraw and stonewall is the husband. That's the University of Washington. After 2000 couples, 20 years, they said men, 85% of those who withdraw and stonewall is the man because his heartbeats get to 99 beats per minute. He's got to calm down. She looks like she's emotionally out of control. Her heartbeats are normal. She knows exactly where she's going. She knows her aim to reconcile and connect here and apologize mutually. But men are in warrior mode. So we have to pull away to calm down, which to her is the most unloving thing you could possibly do. And so I'm thinking about this research. I'm thinking about the scripture. I'm thinking about the correlation and then whammo, the crazy cycle came into my mind. Without love, she reacts without respect. Without respect, he reacts without love. Without love, she reacts without respect, without respect. And this baby starts to spin, James, and it gets out of control among couples of goodwill who have honest misunderstandings. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think intuitively there's a sense in which, and I know there's, you know, different ways to love people, but I think the notion of respect is so novel in sort of an odd way. When you describe respect, what are you really talking about there? What is it that men are really looking for? Yeah, and this is a question wives will say, you know, I have no idea what you're talking about, Emerson. I say, well, do you know what disrespect is? Do you know what disrespect is? Oh yeah, I got that down. They know. I say, well, just kind of cut that back in half and he'll feel honored, okay? Just cut that back in half. And it's true, it's true. There was a book I wrote called Motivating Your Man God's Way, and this woman was having conflict with her husband, and he knew that she had been reading that book, and she pulled back and her tone was different. The University of Washington again said women have the gestures of contempt. Their face turns sour. They roll their eyes. They sigh. They point their finger. They put their hand on their hip. Their head goes back. And when estrogen kicks in, the word choice of contempt just rolls off their lips. And University of Washington said this is what women will do when they're upset, but they expect the man to decode that because they decoded among one another. I know why that sweet dewdrop is reacting the way she is. He was so unloving. Well, I agree with that, but the gestures of contempt are being interpreted by him as you don't like him and you don't respect him. And if you pull back a little bit, just shift that tone a little bit. I don't want to be dishonoring you. I don't know how to talk to you. I don't want to dis you right now. You're an honorable man who would die for me if I don't kill you first, but how do I say this respectfully? And this woman was doing this to her husband, and he said, she said, he came over and started loving on me, holding me, kissing me. And she said, what are you doing? He said, you read the book. They know. They picked up on it, and she said, it works, and it does work with people of goodwill. Does that make sense? So, first of all, it's not being disrespectful. In other words, it's just truth carries its own weight, as we say. Truth will carry. But someone will feel like they need to really just come at this because he's not hearing me, and I get that. I get that. But the question is, is that the woman of dignity that God wants you to be? No. So how you can say, I want to say this honorably, I want to say this respectfully. I'm very upset right now. I'm very mad at you, but I know you would literally die for me. You're an honorable man. But how do I say this without you thinking I'm just using this topic as another opportunity to send you a message I don't like you when the truth is I'm feeling vulnerable. I'm feeling hurt again. I need to really talk through. I would hope you would apologize. But how do I bring this up without you just shutting down on me? That in and of itself. Now he's going to be suspicious that you're drunk, okay? But apart from that humorous comment, there's going to be this sense that you're up to something. And if there's some tension in the relationship, he's going to, he's not necessarily going to say, oh, this is so wonderful, but he's going to be hearing you so loud and clear. And if it's genuine, just watch what happens. I tell ladies, don't do this as a test. Do this because you're trying to meet a need that he has that only you could meet. This is not a matter of manipulating him, but it is a matter of meeting the need. And when you do that that way, he will meet you halfway. Does that make sense, James? It does. And I think it resonates with my wife and I's experience with the concept and really trying to work it through. I think there was a period there where we both knew we were sort of in training, you know, I was trying to learn to love her better. And so it was coming off a little bit would, right? Like she knew I was trying. It wasn't natural necessarily. And I felt the same with her. But I think we both had to just respect the fact that we were trying, that the effort was there and that we really wanted this to get better. And so we were willing to overlook sort of the, you know, the suspicion, like you're talking about. And I think that has a lot to do with the fact that we both, I think, number one, we both went through it together, which I'd kind of like to ask you about here in a second. But I think, you know, number one, we both went through it together and we both had the same intent. We both wanted our marriage to be better. And so we recognize this as we're working through this, it might be a little awkward, a little strange, not exactly how we naturally communicate. But once we get past that, this is going to be better and we believe it's going to be better. And so I think it's really encouraging actually to hear that you had that experience with other couples and that you, you know, this is kind of part of what it is, that there are those awkward moments at the beginning where you're thinking that the other person's up to something because they really kind of are. Well, yeah, and that's an excellent point you make that if two people, as you did, you read the book together, she's going to say everything that Emerson says about loving a wife is true. You know, but it's the respect side that's awkward to her. But as the guys read the book and we wrote this book in a fair and balanced way because, and Focus on the Family has sponsored us as the marriage conference for four years, did research and 49% of those who initiate come into our live marriage conference where we average about 1800 per a two day conference was the man. And I said all along, men are not indifferent to marriage. They just don't hear their mother tongue. But when they read the Love and Respect book, the guys are saying everything Emerson's saying here about respect is true. And so he knows it's true, but he's not necessarily feeling as comfortable about the love side. So if two people like you and your lovely wife, both of you are saying, look, everything he's saying about me is true. And you said that as well, then I'm going to trust that what he's saying about the other person is also true because I know he's

language, even though it feels scripted, it's okay, just as most women would say, if my husband would just say, I don't know how to do this love thing. I want to be loving. Sometimes I don't think I have feeling on about anything, but I want to try to be loving. She'll soften because you're speaking her language, even in the apology. So it doesn't take a lot to really touch the spirit of the other person if they sense genuineness. That make sense? It definitely does. And I guess I'm wondering, you know, obviously, my wife and I have experienced with the book and with the concept work together. Is that ideal? I mean, have you had a lot of folks who try to sort of go at this one-sided, you know, so a wife trying to respect her husband, but he doesn't really understand what's going on there. You know, if she read the book, he hasn't. And, you know, she's trying to respect him, but he has no idea what's happening. It just seems to me like it would work so much better if people did it together, but I'm wondering what your experience is with that. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up, and many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up, and many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Well, no, I mean, ideally, yes. I mean, Paul is teaching in Ephesians talking to both husbands and wives, and he's expecting both of them to move forward, you know, beatings to the command. God commands the husband to love the wife, to respect, and he's assuming both are reading this, and it's not for you to point the finger at the other for not obeying God. You've got your section here, and this is for you to do and quit pointing out the verse to your spouse, you know, which we have a tendency to do. There's that proclivity to point to them, if you would just do your part, then we wouldn't get on the crazy cycle. The reason we get on the crazy cycle is she's so disrespectful. No, probably because you're unloving, and then, to your point, if a person, though, reads the book by themselves, this is what's so powerful about it. I mean, Peter says in 1 Peter 3, you can win a disobedient husband through your respectful behavior. Both Paul and Peter as spouses, they don't command any wife to agape love their husband. That is completely silent in the Greek. They only talk about this respect, and Peter goes a step farther and says, you can win him. And so I say to a wife, well, my husband, almost every wife wants their husband to join them in reading the book together, going to the conference together. It's just the way God's hardwired. But we say to her, I'm gonna tell you, if you do this on your own, even though he's unwilling at this point, you do this in good faith, in humility, you're motivated rightly, you're not trying to manipulate him. If he has any degree of goodwill, it's gonna hit him like a, it's just gonna hit him like, you know, some kind of a hit, drugs. I mean, it's just, it's so overwhelming. He's gonna say, what's going on? Where's my wife and what'd you do with her? Now, that's gonna be the initial reaction. Now you've got a, there's a process involved in this, but this is where then you can make the appeal. I'm trying to learn to honor you. You're an honorable man and you would die for me. And that's overwhelming to me. And, but I've been reading this book on, on how to do this. Almost every man I know will then pick up that book. He will pick it up. That's been my experience. That's just that, that's just how powerful this is. And this is a book where he'll hear his mother tongue. And one of the things I say, men operate by justice and honor. Years ago, Pat Riley had me come speak to the Miami Heat and he and I spent five hours together in a room talking about justice and honor. And when men feel unjustly treated and dishonored, they'll, there'll be mutiny. They'll, they'll, they'll jump ship. They will go over, they'll throw the, the captain overboard. But also men can misperceive injustice and misperceive dishonor. There could be a misreading of that due to their own ego. But given that a man is humble and goodwill, and I say to a wife, if you act on this information and then appeal to your husband to read this with you, and he sees what you're doing, he has something come over him, which is called justice and honor. He will say to her, it's only fair and honorable for me to engage around this. He really will come around, not absolutely all men, but any man with goodwill who wants to work on the relationship and he's tasted of this, it's what we call power. I tell people at the conference, there's power in this when we do it genuinely, we do it in humility. God would not mock us. I mean, Hosea was told, go love a woman who's an adulteress. He won her. Well, Gomer back through love. Peter says you can win this husband. I don't believe the Lord is mocking. Now I never make a hundred percent guarantee because Jesus had his Judas, but Jesus had his Judas who was betrayed, who was unfaithful. When we talk about an individual like yourself, James here, that you're a good man seeking God's will. You've got goodwill. Your wife, if she just picked up that book on her own and applied this, it would get your attention immediately. It's powerful. I think, let me take a quick break here in the show. And when we come back, I want to talk a little bit about how each of the spouses might do work on themselves, you know, as they're recognizing that like the wife is recognizing that she desires love and the husband's recognizing that he desires respect. How is it that they work on themselves so that they can better handle lack of love and lack of respect maybe in a relationship? I'd like to get your take on that. So we'll take a quick break and then when we come back, we'll talk through that a little bit. All right, everybody. Welcome back. Uh, we're here talking about love and respect. And, uh, I left off just asking the question. So I know when, again, when my wife and I went through this and, uh, I hope it's okay. I'm getting sort of your take on, on how my wife and I experienced this, but I, I was hoping it'd be kind of an interesting way to walk through the book. Um, I remember specifically thinking to myself, okay, if we're going to do the love and respect thing, where if we're really going to work on me loving her and her respecting me, part of what I'm going to need to do is try to figure out how to manage my feelings when I feel disrespected. I know she's trying to respect me. And so I need to, on some level, figure out how to, um, yeah, just control myself, not to react, um, but to be a little bit more, um, maybe bounded in my own emotions, right? So that I wasn't always just sort of responding with a lack of love, but that I was recognizing her intent and her desire to respect me, even if I felt disrespected. Does that make sense? Oh, absolutely. And I mean, that's a sign of your maturation and, and, uh, your godliness to, to really want to make that a focus. Some people don't, they'll hear the crazy cycle without love. She reacts without respect, without respect. He reacts without love and they'll assign blame. We wouldn't get on the crazy cycle if you were more respectful. Well, we wouldn't get on the crazy cycle if you were more loving. And once we start pointing fingers, once you start pointing fingers, then, then as I always say, you're, you're probably more of the reason for

And I say, that's not fair. I just wrote the book. I don't do this stuff. No, so, you know, we all have, we have these moments where, you know, we just wanna blame and we wanna point fingers and you're saying, hey, you know what? I knew that wasn't healthy. And I always say, we're not going to do this perfectly. And so there's got to be kind of given some grace, but not too much grace. Some of us can take advantage of that and justify our own good negativity. But now to your question, there comes a moment when Sarah and I, and this is one of our axioms and the axiom is this, my response is my responsibility. My response is my responsibility. We've locked into that. And then it continues. My response is my responsibility. Sarah does not cause me to be unloving. She reveals me as unloving. Hey everyone, thanks for listening to this first part of my interview with Emerson Eggerichs. Tomorrow, we're going to air the second part of the interview. And so I hope you'll come back and check it out. It's, he's really got a lot of great insights. And as I mentioned in this first part of the interview, my wife and I have gone through love and respect, and it was a really an important concept for us to adopt in our marriage and just really enjoyed it. So join us tomorrow as I continue the interview with Emerson Eggerichs and hope you enjoyed this episode of Thinking Christian. Take care, y'all. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Finding uplifting news in today's headlines is often like searching for a needle in a haystack. At The Story Behind podcast, we believe in the power of finding heartwarming tales and are happy to share empowering stories with you every week. Get inspired by the note a waitress received from a patron dining alone. And even hear about how one VIP passenger made a hardworking pilot get emotional before his flight. To start listening to The Story Behind podcast, visit lifeaudio.com.