Thinking Christian at NASCAR with Michael McDowell

Hey everybody, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer. I'm here with Nate and our special guest, Michael McDowell. Michael, it's great to meet you. We haven't met before. I know you and Nate sort of know each other, but I'll let you introduce yourself a bit and just give everybody a sense of who you are and what you do. Yeah, so I'm Michael McDowell. I am married to my wife, Jamie. We've been together for 18 years now. We just celebrated 18th year anniversary, and we have five kids, three girls, two boys, four biological, one adopted, and our oldest being 14 and our youngest being nine months. So pretty big spread there. And I race in NASCAR. I've been a NASCAR driver for 16 years, and my entire life has been geared around motorsports and racing. And yeah, so that's kind of the snapshot. Very cool. My wife and I are actually adopting right now. So yeah, we've got my son is 18, just turned 18. We have twin daughters, 14, and then I have an adoptive daughter we're working through the process. So it's still technically foster, but moving toward adoption, who just turned three this weekend. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, so very cool. Good to know one more person who's been through that. Absolutely. So Matt, I know you travel around a good bit. Where are you at this morning? Yeah, so I'm at home this morning. You know, our season, it's fairly long. It goes from February to middle of November. So I always think about it from Valentine's Day to Thanksgiving is kind of our season. So this is our off season. And so at home and hanging out. And yeah, just, you know, we get a couple months and usually, you know, around the holidays, you're traveling and different things too. So it's a bit busy, but yeah, right now we're just hanging out. Do you do a lot in the off season, kind of appearances and autograph signings and that kind of stuff? Or is that, does that mostly integrate in with the season? Yeah, I try not to if I can, but a lot of times you're getting caught up on things that you didn't do during the season. Like probably some IOUs and things like that where you, you know, whether it be interviews or, you know, different obligations that you have to partners or appearances. So we just, I actually just got back from the NASCAR banquet where they do the awards ceremony. And that was probably the last of the sort of media PR stuff that I had to do. You know, for the most part, all the outlets and all the TV and everything's there. So any interviews that they wanted, they sort of set aside a block of time before the banquet to, you know, talk about your season, talk about your off season, pre-season. So I think I have most of it out of the way. It should be, should be pretty light here for the next month or so. Sweet. And what is prep? I mean, what does prep look like for next season? I know you're, you know, you're saying Valentine's Day to Thanksgiving. So, I mean, what do you do between now and February to kind of get everything ready and going? Are you just kind of off like sabbatical style? I came out of academia. So, you know, take a sabbatical. In theory, you're writing, but really I think everybody just sleeps. And so is it kind of like that or are you, do you have a lot of tune up on the car? Do you have a lot of, you know, sort of driving, that kind of stuff where you're trying to get everything dialed in? What does that look like? Yeah, it's different. Each season is a little bit different. So from the team standpoint, yes, like it's a total revamp. Everything gets, you know, torn apart, gone through, you know, measured, replaced, sandblasted, repainted. It's like starting fresh, right? So the team doesn't really have an off season. The guys at the shop, they're working the same hours right now that they would during the season. So that doesn't really change a whole lot for them other than not traveling on the weekends and not having to, you know, to go to the actual races. For me, it just kind of depends on what I need to work on, what needs to be accomplished in the off season. You know, sometimes it's recruitment, trying to find people and, you know, there's always a bit of turnover. So, you know, like any off season for a professional football team, you know, guys are getting, you know, picked off from one team to another and things like that. But this season, there's not much of that. Last two years, that's been my primary focus was people. But this year we were able to keep our group together, which is really awesome. It'll allow us to continue to build and grow. And so for me personally, it's kind of two or three different parts is two years ago, I did a pretty extensive, like I'd call it a detox, but like an off season kind of like fast detox, try to get healthy with your body and everything else. Cause, you know, our sport's different than professional sports. We're not like trying to rehab, you know, where we got hurt. We're trying to get rid of some of the fumes and carbon dioxide and things that get into your body, you know, because you're sitting on a fireball for, you know, four or five hours a week. So, um, and then, you know, just training in particular, as far as just physically, mentally, all those things. And then, um, going through data. So we'll go through a lot of data and we'll highlight a few areas that we feel like, or I feel like I need to do better going into the next season. Um, and so you find those areas and, and you study data, you study film, kind of come up with a plan to work through those. Um, but all that is pretty loose. It's not like scheduled Monday, Tuesday, I have to do that. And Wednesday, Thursday, I have to do that. It's fairly self-disciplined, if that makes sense. You're doing it on your own or with your engineers. Um, but yeah, so there, there's some work, but there's other guys that do nothing. And there's other guys that do a tremendous amount and everywhere in between. And it's probably like that in professional sports, right? There's probably guys that go into the off season and just rest and relax and get intense when it's time to. And other guys, you know, stay in that mode so that they don't fall out. So, um, you know, over the years, you know, I've been doing it a long time now. I've sort of found my, you know, routine of, of what works for me. Sure. There's a lot that goes into NASCAR. There's so much science. I had no idea. I was really shocked when you shared with me a while back, uh, all the things that go into it. Like it's crazy, the air conditioning suit and, and all that stuff. It's definitely a lot more for our listeners to know. I know it's not like football or some of those other sports you kind of alluded to, but there's definitely a lot that goes into it. Yeah, it is. It's a complicated sport. It's different than stick and ball sports, um, because the vehicle is as important, if not more important than the actual athlete or the driver. And so it's two, two different aspects of team car vehicle, then driver skill set, overall ability. And so there's more moving parts. There's more, um, parts to manage, aspects to manage. And then also too, you know, our sport's driven by and our teams are driven by sponsorship dollars, right? Where that's different than Dallas Cowboys, right? I mean, obviously they have partners, but, you know, they make their money off of the league. The league is who pays the teams. The teams pay the players, their salary caps, their budget, things like that, where motorsports is not like that. So, um, depending on where you're at sponsorship wise and partner wise, a lot of guys off season might be just that. It might just be working on new partnerships and flying around to board meetings and different marketing meetings. And, um, so there's a lot of different aspects to our sport. And the driver is sort of the focal point of all those things from a branding and a marketing and, um, you know, that standpoint. So you have to be fairly engaged in every aspect of the sport. You can't just be like, oh, I got people that take care of that and not really know what's going on behind the scenes. So, um, there's definitely a lot to it. Sure. Well, man, I, I kind of checked out your website a little bit and, you know, in your bio, one of the things you note is that you're a committed follower of Jesus Christ. And so I'd be interested just to hear, you know, apart from racing, how did you, um, how did you come to faith in Christ? Um, and what is your spiritual life like? Yeah. So, um, you know, if you go back to childhood, I grew up in a good home and had great parents, but, um, faith wasn't, um, a focal point or a part of, uh, our family, if that, if that makes sense. It wasn't like, it wasn't like my parents were atheists and you couldn't talk about it. But my dad grew up in the Catholic church, went to Catholic school. And I think he was fairly

I grew up in a good home. And so as I was coming up through growing up racing go-karts and racing was always the focal point of my life. It was, you know, from the time I was seven, eight years old, like, this is what I wanted to do. This is what I've been pursuing. And so that really was my main focus. And so as far as my faith story goes, you know, it wasn't until I was probably 16, 17 years old. I was, while I was racing, I was also coaching. So I would do like driver training and coaching. And it was a way for me to, to network and also help fund some of my racing. So if I wasn't at the racetrack with myself, I was with other people coaching and training them. And so this is to kind of give you a little bit of background. And there was two guys in particular that I was training that, you know, that I say the best way to describe them was godly men that lived out their faith. And I didn't know what that meant at the time. I could only articulate that now, but at the time it was just more of, there's something different about these guys, the way that they live their life, the way that they engage with their family, their businesses, just overall, you could feel that there was something different. So I feel like those guys were really influential in the start of my faith journey. And it was the Lord pursuing me through those guys that really led me to ask questions. And so, you know, what was the trigger to that is Ron Huber, the guy that I was working for, I was actually training his grandson, but worked for him. And he was at a go-kart track on a Segway scooter, hit a rock, fell, hit his head and passed away about a week or a few days later. And so it was at his funeral that I was challenged by another guy, Tom Barnett, just about, this is how I phrased it. I'll just tell you exactly what he said is, he said, he asked me, did I think Ron was in heaven? And so for me, not growing up in the church, not really having a full understanding of what eternity looks like and who makes it and who doesn't, and not knowing the gospel, I was, you know, could just answer it the best way that I knew how, was that, yes, good people go to heaven, right? And so that's kind of the worldly measuring stick, right? And he said, well, you know, what about you? Where are you at? And God just used that question, where are you at, to really challenge every area of my life, which I hadn't had much conviction up until that point, or really knew what that was. Or maybe you just grow to suppress or be immune to it. I don't know, you know, how you would phrase it, but how I would describe that couple period, two, three weeks, it was just God pursuing me and convicting me. And I think that God a lot of times pursues us through conviction. And so, you know, as a 17-year-old, I was thinking about how I wanted to live my life, you know, how I wanted to be a husband, which I wasn't married, how I wanted to be a father, I wasn't, didn't have any kids. Like I was like, I thought I was losing my mind. I was literally felt like going on and I can't figure it out. And my wife and I, we've been together since we were 16. So we were together at that time. And her aunt and uncle invited us to church and we liked hanging out with them. They were fun. And, you know, I'd been to church maybe for like a handful of funerals, handful of weddings, but never really. No youth groups, no youth camps, nothing really like an actual service of any sort, you know. But they, like I said, we liked hanging out with them. They were fun. And they convinced us that they'd take us to lunch afterwards. So we figured we would go and hang out with them. And, you know, this was during that two or three week period where I was having a lot of conviction and a lot of confusion. And it was at a big church in Phoenix, in Peoria and thousands of people. I'm a big church. And I'm never sitting there and like looking around and like pretty disconnected from like, well, who pays for this? And what is it? You know, where do they get the money? And like, I'm thinking about all, but when the message started, it felt literally like I was the only person in that church. And it felt like the Lord was talking right to me. And I was already wigging out over these two or three weeks, not knowing what was going on. And the pastor was just talking about how God's grace is a free gift and that you, you can't earn it. You can't work for it. You can't purchase it. And growing up and racing, you know, I I've equated everything to hard work. And if you don't have a fast car, you buy better parts. Like you work for it, you can purchase it, you can make it better. And so that was a fairly foreign concept to me. Um, but you know, he was just, like I said, he was just talking about God's grace and forgiveness, that it's a free gift. It's not something you can earn or buy, but that, um, that you receive through faith and that you could have a fresh start and a clean slate. And out of all the stuff that I heard that day, the fresh start and the clean slate is what really, you know, hit home for me. Well, we'll take a break there. You're listening to Thinking Christian on Life Audio. Our guest is NASCAR driver, Michael McDowell. More on his testimony when we come back on Thinking Christian. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. So, you know, I don't think anybody fully understands the depth and understands the gospel the first time it's presented, right? And I don't think we ever fully grasp it, but it was, I knew I wanted it. I knew I wanted that fresh start. I knew I wanted that clean slate. And, you know, that was really the beginning of my faith journey. And, you know, I've been, let's see what year that was. That was 2004. So almost 20 years ago. And I went into my faith journey with a lot of questions and I've never been somebody that is like taking anything at face value. I'm a skeptic at heart. And so it caused me to really like dive in and try to understand and to challenge a lot of people that were around me that were trying to speak life into my faith journey, but I was just, I was skeptical. And so, and I just kept pressing in and reading and asking and reading and asking. And it was a slower journey for me than, you know, when I look back, I was like, oh man, I wish I'd have just taken it with faith and face value. But it also, it also forced me to understand and truly know what I believe and why I believe it. And I think that just through that time, you know, a year or two years, God was just continuing to reveal and prove himself to be trustworthy and improve the Bible to be the authoritative word of God. And so it was, yeah, it was an interesting journey because I feel like it was mostly academic and not really centered around faith. And then I just got to a place where I was like, all right, God, like, uh, you're legit. And whatever you want me to do and however you want me to do it, I'll do it. Um, and I stopped maybe fighting the fight.

of trying to, from a head knowledge standpoint, understand it all. But God used that time and continues to use that time, right? Because I think that I got a halfway seminary degree by those few years of really digging in. And it's helped me a tremendous amount 15 years later when you're asked tough questions or you're in tough situations to be able to lean on, you know, some of that understanding that I kind of gained while I was questioning things. Yeah, that's cool, man. I will say, like, when I was, so I came to faith in 97, sophomore in college, senior year. I was being discipled by this guy from Campus Crusade for Christ, and he told me when I was about to graduate, he's like, you're too hard-headed for anybody to teach you this stuff yourself, or, you know, for anyone to teach you this stuff. You need to learn it for yourself. And so he's the one who actually suggested I go on to seminary. Oh, wow. And so, yeah, my wife and I joke a lot. It's like, you know, 12 years, so I did an MDiv, an MA, and then a PhD. She's like, it was 12 years of the most expensive discipleship process ever in life. And I was like, yeah, that's pretty much it. So I totally get where you're at. Like, that skeptic's mentality, I think I had that as well, but eventually it goes away. And it's cool to hear your story. Yeah, yeah, it does go away in some areas, not in all areas. Very, very skeptic still, but, you know, you roll that into my career, you know, that was probably the hardest thing for me to let go, the area to let go. And what I mean by let go is I felt like, okay, like I can give God this, this, this, this, this, but man, I don't know if he understands this. Like, this is what I've worked for and I have a good pulse and feel for what's happening. And so through a painful removal process, you know, I was at a place where I really didn't have anything going on in front of me, future-wise, career-wise. And that was probably the turning point for me to be like, okay, all right, what do you want me to do? You know? And at that point I was contemplating a full-time ministry or going back to school because I knew, I knew the Lord had something for me. I really felt that. I felt that, you know, some people call it a calling, whatever you want to call it, but I just had that tug of like all these things that he has wired me with are for a reason and a purpose and I feel like it's leaning this direction. But, you know, just one year at a time, an opportunity would come up and I would feel like I'm supposed to do it and then it wouldn't be that great, but it would be okay. And opportunity and the next opportunity and the next opportunity. So my career has been a very slow growth as well. And it hasn't been easy. You know, if you're a stick and ball person, you know, I don't even think I could put it into words or context for, you know, your listeners to understand. But essentially I was on the bench playing very minimally for 10 years, you know, which was really hard for me to do because, one, it was, it was hard for me to provide for my family that way because when you're not running well and you don't have, you know, a big team or partners, you're not making much money. And two is, is that I've worked my entire life to be in this spot and you just feel like I didn't work my entire life to do it like this. Like, I'll just go do something else. It wasn't even a pride or an ego thing. It just felt like a waste. It felt like, well, why in the world would I, you know, devote 20 years to something and it not be good. Right. But, you know, through that, that process too, you know, God really just was showing and revealing to me, you know, just where my worth and where my value comes from and that my purpose is, I mean, you know, people always say, I don't know what my purpose is, or I don't know what I'm supposed to do. And, and I, I kind of probably was in that, that boat 10 or 15 years ago as well. But now it's so easy for me. It's like, no, it's like really clear. We have a purpose. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Right. And love others. Make disciples. That's it. Right. That's it. Love people, make disciples. So everybody has a purpose. So I was like, okay, well, how does that look inside of racing if I'm not doing well? And, you know, we, we ended up, my wife and I, and at the track, you know, got plugged into a Bible study and discipling guys. And then that turned into guys coming to know the Lord and their wives being like, whoa, what happened to my, you know, my husband? And he's totally changed and his life's changed to us having small group at our house to home church to like, and God just continued to like, just provide the ministry, the purpose while my career was still sucking. You know, it wasn't going good, but I felt like I was at the racetrack for more than just going around in circles. And so that gave it a lot. It gave it like new life. Right. Like it just gave it a purpose and a meaning. And so then I went down, you know, I, I still pursued my career and still working hard and still trying to make things, you know, progress and get better, but it really wasn't. And so, you know, I, I kind of, not that I was ever like accepted it, but I'm like, okay, well maybe that's just not what the Lord has. Right. Maybe, maybe I'm supposed to be here and just be faithful and be obedient. And, you know, this is way more important than having success on the racetrack and, you know, and so it was easy to, I don't know, it kind of justify not having the passion to really do it well, if that makes sense. Yeah. And so, you know, it's these different seasons, these different seasons in life that you hit and, and we're in a new season. You know, these last four years, my career has like just skyrocketed. Right. Which doesn't usually happen at my age and after 12 years of being in it, so it'd be like a quarterback that's been on the bench, right. For, or is the second or third string for 12 years that all of a sudden to get more playtime and, and now he's crushing it. Right. And so it doesn't happen that often, but it's also easy to see the Lord's hand in it too. Right. And it's been, it's been crazy journey and yeah, I mean, you know, you look back and you're like, wow, that's wild. But, you know, to, to have the success that we've had the last few years, you know, my, my first win was the Daytona 500, our, our Superbowl, our biggest race. Yeah. So that was wild. And so awesome. Yeah. It was so cool. Like, I think, you know, everyone talks about how great it is and how amazing it is. And, and, but for me, it was more of like, it had been such a struggle for so long that it didn't even seem feasible that something like that could happen. And then the, you know, the, the other side of that is like, I could see God's hand and provision in it and that he allowed it to happen. So that made it a very, like, I call those aha moments where you really feel the presence of the Lord of like, you know, he didn't have to, but he allowed us to experience it and to enjoy and to take it in. So that was really cool. And, and really special for my family. And, you know, there's so many people that are behind you and your career, especially in motorsports, not just my immediate family, but you know, there's been people that have sponsored and supported and come alongside you for years. And so it was such a big moment to, to have, you know, the success come with it. And so, yeah, it was special. And I think just knowing where your value and where your purpose is helped me not to let the highs be too high and the lows be too low. And, you know, I just felt like it was a gift and it, it's not, it wasn't expected and I, and I don't expect him to, to do it again. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it was, it was a neat experience. You certainly put in the work and definitely went through some of those low times. I remember, I forget the name of the company, but one of your garages or the, the team you're with didn't have a fire or something. There was a garage that burned down years ago, which I know that was probably a really tough trial to go through that probably changed things and was difficult to walk through. I know you've experienced some lows for sure. So can you speak to that a little bit? Like, was that one of the most challenging things in

That journey or No, that wasn't the most challenging. I think that There's been a lot of, yeah, there's been a lot of lows, right? And I'll tell you this story because it changed, it changed a lot for me is I was in a season of just really struggling, not, not just mentally, but on the racetrack and career-wise and just, you know, just trying to figure out, you know, what are you even doing? And I had signed up to go speak at a church, like, in between, basically, where we were racing in Richmond and home. And, you know, I would sign up for different things, and, you know, I wouldn't do a whole lot of research of what I was doing or where I was going. But, you know, just, and I remember being like a little bit put off by doing it, like, I'm tired, I'm wore out. I'm drove, you know, four hours from Richmond to get to this church the next morning. And so anyways, I go in there, and it's, it's this biker church. It's literally like a Hell's Angels church, right? And it is wild. It was the most wildest experience I've ever, ever had. And I remember just sitting there and just praying and thinking like, Lord, what am I going to even, what am I even going to say? How do I relate to these guys? Like, I mean, when I mean rough, I mean rough. Like, I mean, a lot of amputees, a lot of, like, vets, tattooed face to toe, like crazy. And it was one of those times where I'm like, I probably only done it three or four times in my life where I just like close my eyes, stick my hand in the Bible and flip to a page, you know, and just kind of see where the Lord lands. That just shows you how little of preparation I put into it. Sorry, I got to, I got to turn my, my robot vacuum off here. Otherwise, we're going to have a loud noise. So anyways, I'm at this biker church and I flipped to my Bible and land on James one and it says, consider it pure joy, my brothers, when you face trials of many kinds, that the testing of our faith produces perseverance and endurance. And I just remember thinking like, like, man, I think I'm in a trial. And I look around this room and there's like some real trials, you know? And it just changed my perspective of why God allows us to go through difficult things. And it's not, it's not because he's mad. It's not because he's frustrated. It's not because we missed the mark. It's because he wants to train us and mold us into his likeness. And one of the ways that he does that is through trials. And so, you know, it's easy to say, you know, it's one of those verses that I think people can flip, you know, like graze over of like, oh, consider it pure joy. But like when you can see it from the lens and the perspective of like, I'm going to, I'm going to count this time that's miserable as joyful because I know the Lord's doing something with it. That it's not wasted, that it has a meaning and it has a purpose. Whether that's removing an area of my life, whether that's protecting you from something that you don't even know you need to be protected from, but I'm just going to change my lens and my perspective of what it's like to walk through trials. And so that morning was really impactful for me to just change my perspective on when you're walking through something difficult, that it's, it's for your good, that it's doing something good. And so that helped me, you know, for the next five or six years. And it almost became like a little bit of an inside joke of like, when you have a bad day, like, yeah, just consider it pure joy, you know? And I know it's hard to do and, and, you know, everybody's struggles are, are, are their own. And, but for me, it was just more of just having that new, new perspective, right? And, and just having a new, you know, like when, when the Bible says that like the old is gone and the new is come, it's like, it's like stepping into those new clothes and having that new perspective of life. It doesn't mean that you're still not muddy. Like you're still, you're still going to have trials. You're still going to have difficulties, but it's just giving you a fresh perspective of it and in a different outlook. So. Absolutely. You know, as you're going kind of through that, you talked about, you have Bible studies in small groups. You're discipling guys, you know, even though your, your career isn't exactly going the way you want, we, Nate and I talked to Daryl Strawberry away back and he talked about the difficulty of being Christian within the MLB. Yeah. That, you know, it was just a different context and culture and being a Christian in the MLB wasn't a big deal, you know, it wasn't looked upon well, let's say. It was difficult, the lifestyle and everything. What would you say, you know, from a NASCAR perspective, is it a more welcoming environment for people of faith? Is it a more, you know, is the culture and context such that, you know, I mean, I'm not saying everybody's going to embrace Christianity or something like that, but you know, do you feel, is there antagonism? Is there, or is there an openness to it? Yes. Yeah. All the above. Yeah. Yeah. So I read Daryl Strawberry's book. I thought it was really good. And I don't read a lot of, I'm more of an apologetic, like deep theological read. Like I don't really read a lot of people's stories. I just like, I just want like real in-depth. I don't like to be entertained all that much, if that makes sense. But somebody gave me that book and I read it on a plane. I thought it was really good. But to answer your question, I feel like Christianity in our sport is very well receptive or receptive. It's a Southeast Southern sport, Bible belt. Everybody loves Jesus. It's no big deal. So I don't, I don't feel from an overall, like if you looked at it from a global, you know, it's, it's, there's not much persecution from that standpoint, right? Yeah. The difficulties and challenges are more of the, well, we'll just break it down into categories. The commercial side of it. I've lost tremendous amount of deals because of what I stand for and who I am from a partnership standpoint. And so when you draw a line in the sand and you say, I won't do these things, it puts you in a fairly tight box of who you can pitch and who you can't. And now the world that we live in, that's even way worse. Like that's changed a tremendous amount in the last five or six years, you know, as corporations and, and marketing firms and how people brand things and the things that they support and the things that you won't. It's really limited the space of what you can do. So that is definitely one area that I can pinpoint and tell you this has affected my career because I've had to say no to really good deals because I wasn't willing to do certain things. But same thing. I just, I count that as a privilege, man. Like I feel like that's a stripe of, of honor, not, not the opposite, right? The next category would be because we're in the Bible belt and because everybody loves Jesus, it actually makes evangelism and discipleship really tough because everybody thinks that they're good with God and everybody thinks that they know Jesus, right? Where for me, it was the growing up. It was the opposite. It wasn't like the cool thing. It wasn't like the, yeah, we went to church. You either were or you weren't. You were either in or you were out. It wasn't like this gray area. And when I moved to North Carolina, it was just like, it's so weird. And it still is. And so that makes it harder as far as outreach and, and the opportunity that there is. I also look at it through like, I've been to third world countries and I've seen what poverty and I've seen what persecution is and we don't have it here. Not, I mean, I'm not saying this as a soundbite or a jab, but even Daryl Strawberry does not know what persecution is. Right. There's, there's challenges and there's difficulties, but it's not, it's not what people face around the world. Right. We have it fairly easy here, but that's also why it's hard to reach people. Yeah. I mean, it just is. And so, yeah, but I, I feel like there's not much resistance and it's not something that's hard to live out your faith, but like the MLB and what Daryl was alluding to in that, like I go to the banquet, I'm not going to the after parties. I'm not, not drinking, not doing all the things, not running around. And so is it hard to fit in? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I got five kids and the dinners don't start. I'm already in bed. You know what I mean? I'm like, I do. Yeah. Yeah. There's some challenges.

but it's not that bad. You're listening to Thinking Christian on Life Audio. Our guest is NASCAR driver Michael McDowell. What a great conversation between he and Nate and James. More on his testimony and actually conclusion on Thinking Christian. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up, and many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. What's some other things that's really kind of fueled you, so to speak, your mind, your spiritual journey, like when you're getting ready or maybe before the race, during the race, after race, things like that? When you're talking about Christian music, you know that it's been a huge part of my walk and my life. And I think a lot of it had to do with, it was two parts. It was one part of me like drawing the line in the sand and like no more. I won't be, I won't allow things to come in that aren't from the Lord or aren't good. And I'll tell you a quick story because I think it's important. I just, I was going down the road and I was listening to, I think it was Eminem. And I was, I don't know, maybe a year into my walk, so a new believer. And I knew every word to every song, like memorized. And it was like a light switch that like the Lord revealed to me, like right in that moment of like, that's not who you are and that's not what you're about. And I threw away every CD that I had that day and I put on Christian radio and I haven't listened to anything ever since. And so it was a two part. It was, it was, you know, the Bible tells us you put on our full armor of God. And this was me putting on an armor in an area of not letting my, my ears and my mind and my heartbeat, you know, infiltrated with things that I didn't even know I was allowing in, right? Because it was just, you were just going along with the music, right? But then replacing that with something that was good, you know, and that something that was building you up and, and bringing you closer. So that was one of those, those aha moment days too where it was like, all right, no more done. And that was it. But, you know, I think that the Lord constantly brings you encouragement, whether it's through a Bible study or a small group or, you know, a sermon or church service or a podcast or, you know, your children or, you know, just people coming to know the Lord. Like that's, to me, that's like one of the most encouraging things, the witness, even if you're not even a part of it or, you know, Just seeing God move and God active. And so, yeah, so, you know, I, I believe a hundred percent that I tell my kids crap in, crap out. What you allow in will affect what comes out. And so we limit our crap in. And, and that's hard to do in the world that we live in. It's super hard. Yeah. So, man, it's unbelievable. But yeah, we limit it and we just try to, try to make sure that we're not, we're not opening the door or like giving the enemy a hole and giving them an opportunity. And I think that it's easy to walk through all that very naive and be like, Oh, it's just a song. You haven't listened to the words. Like, like it's not just a song. So yeah, yeah. But different, different stages, different things, you know, for sure. Well, as we're kind of, we're kind of getting close to wrapping up, I just have one more question. I mean, you mentioned the, so I'm a theology geek at heart. I think, you know, I mean, I've got a stack of books. You can see it here. You can't, it's, I think there's like 20 of them just stacked up on my desk next to me that I refer to as I'm doing writing or whatever. And so I'm constantly reading. I love academic theology. And so it's awesome. So as my kind of my final question for you is what have you been reading lately? Like what are some of your like favorite theology books? What are some of your favorite ones that you kind of go back to other than the Bible? Of course, I know the Bible would be central, but yeah. Yeah. So I don't know if I could pinpoint my all time favorite, but if I, if I narrowed it down to whatever the season was of life, the ones that have been most impactful as far as like changing the trajectory of my faith, which probably weren't theological books. It was Francis Chan's Crazy Love. That was probably the first one. I really enjoyed, but it's not an easy read is I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. Yeah. Just because I was really in the time. I was really, I was having a lot of debates with, with atheists and Jehovah's witnesses and other people. And I'm like, I found that book and I'm like, Oh, this is it. Like, if you want to charge up and have all the weapons you need to have these conversations. But it's been very interesting because early on, that's, that's really what I was about. And like I said, I think it was useful, but now I'm like, man, I don't, I don't even, I don't know if it's just blind faith or what it is, but I'm like, flip the switch where I'm just like, yeah, I don't, I don't need to read that. I don't need to dig in that much, you know? Like I just, I know it's real and legit and true. And then I've also stopped trying to find arguments. I think for a long time I was trying to. I'm well-prepared for them, but I'm not looking for them. If that makes sense. Right. It does. Yeah. And I was so early on. I was just like, I was looking for a fight, you know? And so I wanted to be equipped as much as I could for the fight. Yeah. So different, I guess I'm getting soft is what I'm saying. I totally get it. And I think I know my wife at least is happy that I've gotten a little softer and that I'm not out trolling the streets for theological arguments. Every once in a while I'll go on a rant and she'll be like, yeah, there's the old James, but I totally get what you're saying. At some point you just got to kind of let it go. And it's, I'm hoping it's a sign of maturity. I'll put it like that. Well, Michael, it's been great getting to know you and hearing your story and really appreciate you having appreciate having you on. Is there a place where folks can find out more information about you, about your team and all that kind of good stuff? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I just launched a new website, which is mcdowell.com. It's the same domain that I've had, but just updated it. Nice. And I have all the social channels there and yeah. So if you go to that, that'll kind of take you to everything there. But yeah, it's, it's funny in this world that we live in of social media and all that. I have a guy now and I don't, and I just don't. I have a guy. It's so consuming. And I think it's a little bit what we talked about. Like for my job, it's necessary. And I think from a ministry standpoint, it's great too. And I know a lot of good comes from it, but it's a little bit of that crap in crap out. And I just don't want it to affect me in the, in the wrong way. And so I got a guy, he pushes everything good out there, but I'm not, I'm not super engaged in it. Well, that's cool, man. But people can find you at mcdowell.com and link to your Instagram and social and stuff like that. And I know how you feel about social media. It's a, it's a bane and a blessing, right? Yeah, it is. Very cool, man. Well, thanks for being on the show. Everybody, if you want to find out more about Michael and mcdowell.com and, and then the social channels will be linked there. And Nate, thanks for co-hosting today. And we will catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian, y'all. Thank you so much, brother. Appreciate you. Thank you guys. For more on Thinking Christian and Useful to God Ministries, visit usefultogod.com. I'm Richard Beatty, and we'll see you soon on Thinking Christian. Let's go.

I want to take just a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you will find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Are you concerned about tensions in the Middle East? Do you wonder where we're currently at in the biblical timeline? Are we really in the last days? Hi, everyone. I'm Dr. Carl Muller with the Inside the Epicenter podcast. Every week, my co-host, best-selling author Joel Rosenberg, and I answer those questions and more. You'll hear inside knowledge of our meetings with leaders at the highest levels of government in the U.S., Israel, and the Middle East, equipping you to filter the news with biblically sound insights. Find Inside the Epicenter on your favorite podcast app or go to joshuafund.com to listen and subscribe.