How Do Entrepreneurs Think? A Conversation with Lowell Busenitz, Part 2

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome back to this episode of Thinking Christian, where I'm going to be continuing my discussion with Lowell Boosnitz. Lowell, again, is an expert in entrepreneurial decision-making, and we're going to have a conversation about how that decision-making plays itself out, not only in the business world, but also potentially in the Christian world. So stay tuned for more from Lowell Boosnitz. Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I think as we think about the decision-making process and the, you know, like you connected this to Christian giftedness, and so maybe we can kind of pivot there a little bit. But I mean, I think that there is sort of an embedded giftedness, but we don't often think about how that giftedness expresses itself in decision-making. Yeah. And so, you know, as you talk to me about your work prior to this, and just as I'm listening to you now, it seems to me that that's a really crucial connection that we don't often make, right? That your individual Christian giftedness is probably going to shift the way, it's going to color the way you see the world just a little bit. It's going to shift the way you make decisions a little bit, and it's going to allow you to maybe take some shortcuts or make some different intuitions about the situation you're in that would be very different than someone else. Yeah. You know, when I first started down this research track, and actually after my dissertation was even done, I really grappled with the giftedness. You know, is that carrying this idea of giftedness too far? And there's probably a whole conversation to have in that. But it was just so evident to me that there's some people that, you know, that use these heuristics as measured in this way, that they really are good at starting companies. They're terrible. Once the company gets further down the road, they're terrible at making things more systematic, you know, and the company gets to, you know, multiple millions of dollars before they install an inventory control system, you know. And so sometimes this very strength that helps them start a company out of the gates and get through those tumultuous early years, the up and down cycle of starting a business, it's hard. It's sweating blood. But a lot of times then, those very, if they keep running the business the same way, then they just drive the company right back down into the ground. It doesn't do well. They go broke or they make lousy hiring decisions or they didn't think they should have went and got an attorney to draw up some contracts before just, oh yeah, I'll take the work for it. I know this guy or I can read between the lines. I've got his number. We're good, you know, and he or she gets burned. Good, because they weren't careful enough. They weren't methodical enough in getting a lawyer involved or an inventory control system in place and they end up in a crisis and lose the business. Some people, to state it another way, some people who are gifted in this particular way really are best at starting businesses and they're, they would do themselves and the business and their employees a great favor if they would then go and either get a manager in there to turn the business over to and let them manage the company while they go on and invent an additional business to start or an add-on product to start and to work in that area. Or to keep selling, sell the business off, go start another business that would be, so from one, I think that's whether, whether somebody has started following Jesus or not, we're all made in the image of God. We're all cut out of a unique mold that the creator has designed us to be. Yeah. But I think for, but takes on special meaning for those of us who have made a commitment to following Jesus and I, to continue to function in our giftedness in the workplace. Let me ask you a serious question. 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Continue this with a career that fits reasonably well with our decision-making style. I think that has significant spiritual implications as well. That it's in that realm that we're going to be most likely, most open to sensing, to knowing the thumbprints of God in our work. It's really, yeah. Sorry, go ahead. That our, and that's part of my, I guess, paradigm, if you want to call it that, and what I go through in my book Soul Work, is that God's already at work. You know, we often think that, well, I need to get up on these principles and I need to take God to work with me. And yes, there's truth to that. But the reality is God is much bigger than that. God's already there. God is everywhere. And I think it's when we, the more we can function in our work in a way that's consistent with our giftedness, the more sensitive we're going to be to seeing and connecting with God there and seeing his thumbprints in our work and that we put that together. You know, that, I mean, I think, well, first of all, just in some of my own giftedness and this research project and getting on the research track and learning that, I mean, God has touched me multiple times through this research project and to see some of the subtle nuances in myself, to see his design on some entrepreneurs that are just really great at creating new businesses, you know, and I just kind of sit back, wow, you know, that's a pretty neat God, what you did there, you know, and it's a track to worshiping him and who he is. So I think that it has bringing our decision styles, crafting work, trying to get into a career track that uses decision styles, whether it's heuristics or whether it's a more rational, econometric sort of model of, all right, what's the data tell us and how do we analyze the data and get that? And if that's, you know, if analyzing the data is a strong suit that someone has, then that's an automatic channel. That's an open door.

for God to touch you in that area. Inversely, you know, using heuristics and decision, if that's your bent is towards the data and an analysis of the data, you know, using heuristics and decision making probably ain't going to get you very far with seeing the thumbprints of God in your work. Do you think, Lowell, I mean, just my reading on some of the decision-making literature, you know, you have the heuristics are an important aspect of all of this. The data analysis is an important aspect as well. But then you have sort of the double-edged sword of there's good bias. In other words, there's a way for us to make decisions that bias us toward being right, right? Yeah. And, you know, looking at the world in the right way and putting that frame around different things and saying, this is actually what it's going to be. This is the way it's going to look. And even though I can't see the full picture, you know, the puzzle is enough together for me that I can guess what that picture is going to be and I'm right. And then there's also going to be those biases where we're too narrow, where we're missing it. And so do you think that, I guess my question is kind of twofold, but number one is, do you think that's why entrepreneurs get bad at, or bad at running the business, you know, after it's up? And then, you know, the second follow-up question would be, you know, given that we can make those bad decisions, you know, even in our giftedness, we can make bad decisions. How do you see that sort of playing into our giftedness, our Christian giftedness? Yeah, yeah. That's a great question. I think that we really, I think some of it comes down to, we've got to be, we never give up learning. We've got to be learning and maybe another word to put in that is humility. And quite frankly, that's a trait that a lot of entrepreneurs lack, you know? It makes sense. I mean, you'd almost have to because, you know, if you're second-guessing yourself while you're starting it, that's not going to go very far. You've got to kind of plow forward. And so there, yeah, there's a level of confidence that you have to have and like, I'm not going to worry about it. That's, you know, that problem will take care of next week or next month. We'll, we'll deal with that when the time comes. Right now I'm focused on this. But, but I, there's plenty of entrepreneurs out there that, uh, uh, battle arrogance with regularity, you know, and they just become overconfident, too confident in what they had been. So it's kind of the very strengths that, that get them there, um, can, can very much turn against them. And so being, uh, being a learner of ourselves and to develop respect, uh, grow to respect the limitations that we have, um, grow to, to respect, um, and depend to, to depend on the Lord for direction on decision-making that it isn't, you know, yeah, I've got, I've got this heuristic thing nailed down and away I'm off to the, uh, off to the races without stopping and, and conversing with the Lord about it and seeking, uh, seeking him on it. So yeah, it, every strength seems to have a flip side weakness. Um, and, uh, and I, I think that's true in the, in the realm of our spiritual giftedness as well. And of course, just overall spiritually, whenever our, our strengths, um, go to our head a little too much, um, you know, usually that's, that's bad news that, you know, the Lord has to, uh, pull us back a little. Well, I, I mean, I find it fascinating because, you know, as you're, um, as Christians, we're always called upon to make decisions. But if we actually look at the way a lot of Christians make decisions, or even if I look at the way I've made decisions in my own life, right, I would throw myself into this. So many times they are, the decisions that I make, at least, are abstractions from what the biblical text might actually say. You know, so you, you take something like and you say, well, the justice of God, right? And so we use that then as a framework or the love of God. And we use that as a framework. Well, the reality is that God is more than love. He's more than justice. We're choosing to read the situation or see the situation to use this shortcut, right? To answer the question of, this is the love of God. This is a moment for the justice of God. This is a moment for whatever. Um, but a lot of times I think we're probably taking the short, the short way around. And one of the things that I've been sort of captivated by when we think about, and this is in no way, does this Bible passage actually um talk about decision-making. So there's that. But Deuteronomy 17, it's uh, it gives, and this was before Israel, Israel had a king, but um, it gives instructions for the king. And on an annual basis, uh, the king was to write a copy of the book of the law that he would then, you know, sort of submit to the priests. And the whole idea, I think behind that was that the king was not to get too big for his britches, that the king was to intimately know the word of God. Such, you know, and that writing it down every year was to remind him that he sits underneath this word, that he is not a law unto himself. And so sometimes I kind of think back on that passage and ask myself, am I really, um, and I would think an entrepreneur would do this too, right? Do I really understand the field as well as I think I know the field? Yeah. Right. Do I really understand, like, as much of this as I think I understand. Now I, I would admit I'm probably not an entrepreneur. I'm probably more, I mean, I'm a huge geek. And so I think, you know, at the end of the day, I sort of probably am biased toward data, but I got to think they've got to have a pretty deep knowledge of the field or else they're going to make a lot of wrong decisions. And I, my tendency is, you know, in this conversation, and I think just more generally Deuteronomy 17 to me, um, reminds the leader of the kingdom, uh, not only that he sits under the authority of God, but it embeds that God's word within the king, right? And that's the intention of writing it through every year. And so he understands, for lack of a better term, the field that he's supposed to be playing in. He understands that landscape very well because he's writing it every year. So how do you see entrepreneurs, I guess, do you see entrepreneurs moving from field to field to field and starting businesses in a lot of different sectors? And if so, what's the carryover between that? You know, if somebody's starting something in the food, you know, the food industry, and then they go into construction and then they go into something else, is there a commonality that, that you see them doing or do they have to familiarize themselves with those separate markets? Like, does that make sense? Yeah. I, you know, uh, I, I just think that it's very rare that somebody can do that. Occasionally someone can, you know, maybe, uh, um, Elon Musk is probably somebody that is the closest to that as anybody from uh online platform X to uh is like a cars and space and you know, like wow. Uh, but, um, and he, and he makes it work, obviously, and work very well. Um, or some things are still out. Yeah, it seems to be doing okay. Some things are still out, out for judgment. And he's got some stumbles coming, I'm sure. But yeah, I think, I think most of us just don't have enough bandwidth maybe, you know, to, uh, to jump from industry to industry. Um, and that it just, there's just so much to know. I'm, I'm just, and I'm a big proponent of, of uh competitive advantage, of learning to know what you, what you do best and how to build that into your organization to turn that into a competitive advantage, uh, to, as an edge. Uh, because, and I think that I also to connect that with the, the spiritual realm, I think the more, the more we know about something, the more ideas we're going to have, the more we're going to see the gaps, the holes, the potential of an, of yet another innovation. Yeah. But also the more we're going to, uh, have the opportunity to see the thumbprints of God with the very materials that we're working with. Yeah. That, and, and to develop that sense about what's going on and when we do this versus that. And variably when, when we, uh, when an entrepreneur invents something, it's Let me ask you a serious question. If something

trigger a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. It's not the last call. It's not the last item. Rather, it's usually the beginning of the parade if they want it. You know, it's the beginning of the track that, wow, yeah, I invented this and maybe it wasn't very successful, but I would never have gotten to the second or third innovation if I hadn't done the first or the second innovation. That that opens up the and I just think that our world is just way too nuanced, complicated, fascinating. The intricacies of God's creation just, you know, I guess I just I think, feel like I marvel at it more and more and more all the time. And that when something resonates with us, when whether it's a decision style, whether it's a product that we're innovating, to use that as a channel to go deeper to understand why does this work this way? What's behind this? You know, or I'm, you know, I'm built, I need to go get, make some silicon because I need to make some chips for our computer so our computers run, right? Well, guess what? All sands aren't made the same. You know, there's hundreds of different kinds of sand and they don't all work to make silicon and glass and so forth, you know. And when we are delving into innovations to make a better chip or to make a better glass product in some way or another or using sand to frack the rock infrastructure or something. It's like, wow, you know, I need to have just the right kind of sand to do that. One job versus, uh, versus another. And then you find out what it's like to, you have to discover what it's like to mine it and get it and, and process it and all these different things. But, but also just the world is such, I think from, from a business standpoint, it's if you don't really delve in and learn and increasingly learn the depths of the product you're working on, understand the depths of the market you're going into and how people are responding to when the, when the new product is presented one way versus another way or when a certain need of the market is brought to the forefront, whatever. These are people made in the image of God who respond to things, you know, and there's underlying patterns about the way we, uh, connect with them that are our potential opportunities to, to see the thumbprints of God and to connect with them to, to fall down before him and worship. Those are our worship triggers, if you please, that can bring us to the throne of God and, uh, and thank him for this amazing world that he's given us to live in and given us the opportunity to be co-creators, little C, not big C, little C, but together with him and to make the world more productive. Well, I think it's, you know, I think it's a really important message. Um, you know, as we think about, even as you've talked about the, the relationship between entrepreneurs and managers and sort of almost the handoff that needs to take place, right. Um, sort of stay in our lane, not overreach, not think that, you know, the way we might think about something is either good or bad necessarily, but sometimes just very contextual. Like it's great in a moment and in another moment, less great, right? Yeah. I think it requires, and it points to, um, an interesting sort of humility. And what I, what I've been thinking about as you've been talking about this is, you know, Romans 1, um, Paul sort of lays out this idea of reciprocity in Romans 1 where he says, I want to come to you. Uh, you know, he's talking to the church in Rome. I want to come to Rome so that I can impart a spiritual gift to you. And then he sort of backs up and says, well, not only that, but I want to benefit from your faith as well. And so there's this sort of reciprocal recognition that it's not that we don't bring anything to the table, right? It's not that we shouldn't, we shouldn't feel confident and competent, uh, to the extent that we have developed the gifts and orientations that God has given us. Um, but also that we shouldn't feel so overconfident that we feel like in order to be of use, it has to be our way every time without any exceptions. There's a lot of times where we just need to almost read the room a little better and say, this is probably not the time for me to chime in because my way of thinking about this is going to slow it down. It's going to muck it up. It's going to, you know, whatever that might be. It's, it's such a, it's a little bit of a sort of a step backwards of the discernment process we normally think about, right? Um, but I think it's so crucial for us to really get that. I agree. Yeah. We have to be humble in that. We really do. You know, and I mean, in our world is, you know, practically from a business standpoint, you just, you can't sit on the same innovation. You have one successful innovation, you know, you got it all figured out and away you go. You know, the marketplace is always changing. Uh, you now you've got to go from domestic to international, uh, because of the nature of the marketplace at this point. And boy, you know, that opens up a whole new channel that you have to learn about. And I, I think rather than, than it being really room for, for arrogance, it's like the more we learn, the more we realize that, boy, I don't have it together. Uh, there is so much more to unwrap about this innovation that it just goes, it goes deeper and deeper, uh, that, that is, is really important to, for us to, to understand and, and to grasp a hold of. Otherwise, um, otherwise we, we keep trying to live off of the same innovation. And I think, uh, which doesn't work practically, but I, I think it closes our eyes to God being in our midst. Uh, and rather the, the deeper we go with understanding some uh tiny little portion of this universe, but the deeper we go, the more it gives us eyes to see other things and more opens our eyes to real, to see that. And I've, I'm a duck out of water. You know, I was good here, but I'm, I've got a ton to learn. If we're going to expand into this market, we're going to do a bolt on uh addition to our product. That's, that's going to, to make it more effective for a sec for a different application. Wow. I've got a whole bunch to, to learn. And it, you know, and I think both from the discovery standpoint as well as the problems we get into and the additional discoveries, all that are, are fodder for bringing us to the foot of the cross. You know, they all bring us there and realize what a great creator we have, how big he is and how dependent I am. And it's almost like the more we learn about this world and all the natural resources and, and people and so forth.

The more we realize our little dot in the black box of the world becomes smaller and smaller and smaller. Yeah. Well, I think that's probably a good place to end it on the majesty and an amazing character of the God we serve. And so Lowell, I just really appreciate you, appreciate your research and your heart. And I appreciate you being on the show and talking a little bit about decision making. I think it's just a compelling topic that we don't talk about quite enough and it has so many implications. I mean, I think we could go on decision making for a whole hour, but we won't today at least. But yeah, fascinating topic and really appreciate you being on. And so folks, I hope those of you who are listening, enjoyed the conversation. We have posted the contact pieces for Lowell in the show notes. So you can, I'd encourage you to go get his book, Soul Work. It's out there on Amazon and probably some other places, right? But Amazon has everything. So we will link there and yeah, Lowell, just really appreciate you and thanks for being on the show today. So we'll call it an episode for today and we'll catch everybody next time. So thank you. Thank you. Great to be together. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Are you seeking to deepen your faith and embrace your identity in Christ? Then tune into the Bought and Beloved Christian podcast hosted by me, Kirby Kelly. Join me each week as we dive into God's word, explore its truths, and learn how to live out our faith boldly. Whether you're new to the faith or looking to grow closer to God, the Bought and Beloved podcast offers insightful discussions, heartfelt encouragement, and practical advice for your spiritual journey. Subscribe now on your favorite podcast platform and let's walk this faith journey together here on the Bought and Beloved podcast.