Chris Rappazini | Thinking Christian about Leadership, Faith, and Moving Forward

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm James Spencer, your host, and I'm joined today by Dr. Chris Rappazzini. Chris is Professor of Leadership at Anderson University in South Carolina. He's also the author of Moving Forward After Messing Up, a book he published, I believe, last year, if I'm correct. And he's also the founder of Faithful Steps Forward. Faithful Steps Forward is an organization that provides leadership, coaching, and organizational consulting. And so, Chris, welcome to the program, man. Hey, before we get too far, why don't you give the website for Faithful Steps Forward just so people can find it? And then I'll also include it in the show notes for everybody, but where can they find Faithful Steps Forward and find out a little bit more about you and what you provide there? Yeah, sounds good, James. Yeah, so they can just go to faithfulstepsforward.com. I got the .com for it, so faithfulstepsforward.com. But it's something that I like to do when I'm not teaching at Anderson University and their leadership because I get to work with leaders who have the boots on the ground, right? They're out there in the trenches, and so I get to do coaching, consulting, leadership training with them and their organizations. So faithfulstepsforward.com. Well, congrats on getting the .com, man. That's a feat in itself, I think, these days, right? Finding a domain name is one of the more challenging tasks ever. Right, right. Exactly. Well, Chris, this is awesome to have you on, man, and I appreciate you coming on. Well, I want to get to your book. I want to get to Moving Forward After Messing Up. But as we talked about a little bit in the pre-interview, I also wanted to pick your brain on leadership stuff because I teach a course for Wheaton College on the biblical and theological foundations for leadership. And so I kind of wanted you to interrogate my approach to this and give me a little bit of a sense of how far off base I might actually be, if you're okay. Yeah, that'd be... Well, you're probably not too far off base, man. You're a smart guy, and you're a doctor, too. You didn't introduce yourself as a doctor, but you're a doctor as well. True, yes. I'm an Old Testament doctor, so no prescriptions or anything. But maybe both leading. All right, well, let me throw some ideas past you. All right. So I opted... When I think about Christian leadership studies, my mind always goes to servant leadership. Servant leadership has been sort of this reigning paradigm within Christian leadership studies. And I actually value it. I think it's a really good... I think it's a really good orientation to Christian leadership. But for the class, I wanted to give the students a little something different. You know, I didn't want to just teach servant leadership. So that's sort of my angle on it. So what I tried to do was, I tried to approach it in terms of leadership being a specialized form of discipleship. And so what we've got is, in order to be an effective leader within a Christian organization or an effective Christian leader, what we have to first really be attending to is our discipleship. And so we go through three things. We go through a lot of different stuff, but the basics are reordering our loves, reorienting our attention, and then learning to respond to God. And so I almost made the preaching, you know, asked me, the three R's, but the L kind of screws it up. No, so say those again. Say those again. Yeah, so it's reordering loves, which I kind of stole from Augustine, right? He talks a lot about ordering loves or misguided, misdirected desires, those kind of things. Reorienting attention, which really does deal with how do we avoid being distracted from recognizing God as infinitely more relevant than any other actor or factor we could possibly, you know, pay attention to during any given moment. And then responding to God, learning to respond to God within any given situation. And there I really deal with narratives like 1 Samuel 24, where David's in the cave, Saul comes in to relieve himself. David refuses to kill him because he is the Lord's anointed. And in that moment, he's got this opportunity to get his men out of being chased through the wilderness and, you know, doing all these things to claim the throne. But his concern is less about that than it is about honoring the Lord and making sure that he, you know, the Lord is the one who places him on the throne, not some action he takes himself. So we talk a lot about exercising restraint within leadership, which has been sort of an interesting topic for students. And then obviously we do touch on servant leadership, but I just didn't want to make it the main focus. So I guess I'm wondering, you know, you've done leadership studies and all that kind of good stuff, your PhD's in leadership studies from Gonzaga. And I'm wondering what you think of that kind of an approach from a biblical and theological perspective on things, but I'm wondering what you think. Yeah. I mean, all of that sounds good. Sign me up, right? I'd love to go. I'd love to learn from you. I think it's all... I'll say this. From leadership studies standpoint, particularly from an academic view, it is sometimes challenging to demonstrate how Scripture and how theological studies points to leadership. So essentially, the field of leadership is actually a relatively new field. So we have all these different fields, whether it's in theology, whether it's in preaching, or even just fields in agriculture or whatever your different field is, you know, medicine, Sure. Different fields that have been studied throughout centuries. The field of leadership is actually a relatively newer field. It's only been around for 150 years or so. Yeah. And it wasn't initially adopted by Christians or by believers. It wasn't like the believers are the ones who started the field of leadership where believers are the ones who started the field of theology or the field of bibliology or whatever it may be. Sure. And so one of the questions that they would have, and I guess I would have too, is what... So this is an underlying question regarding the purpose of Scripture, right? Is it to teach people how to be leaders? Is that what the initial intent of the Bible is for? I think you and I would agree. It's like, well, no, but there's leadership within the Bible, right? And so we can definitely see different models of leadership in the Bible. But the challenge, I think, oftentimes is, how are these theories of leadership studied throughout history so that the models can be proven true? So you have to have a theory first that is, you know, maybe in the clouds, and then you come down the ladder of abstraction to the model of leadership on the ground, this is what it looks like. And I find that in the Scripture, there's a lot of these models of leadership that are on the ground. You can see it like you mentioned, whether it's David, whether it's Jesus himself, whoever is the leader, right? You can see what they're doing. But how is that grounded in a theory that can be tested and proven? And that's where I think the challenge of finding leadership from strictly biblical and theological perspective. Now, I think it's important to do that, though, because as a believer, hey, Scripture is powerful, right? And it is true. And so that's one of the challenges that I think leadership studies has when it comes to how do we teach it. But then, you know, in a lot of my classes and programs going through my PhD, they actually would say, you don't even, you shouldn't actually include theological perspectives in when it comes to leadership. But I disagree with that as well, because, again, I think you can, I think theology has to say, has a lot to say about the field of leadership studies. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. It's interesting. There's a lot in there. No, it's interesting. So I think you could almost say that about any two disciplines. How are we? We usually talk about it in terms of integration.

Yeah, right. But I think even within integration, what we normally see is some sort of developing hierarchy, right? So biology wants to own psychology. They want to sort of take in portions of the, you know, sort of the psychological insights that you might get from psychology, but really, we're biologists. And biology is our thing, and in saying that it's our thing, sometimes you get the impression that it's the thing, right? Not all the time, but a lot of times. And so, there's this, for lack of a better term, integration of the disciplines that sort of, I think, is problematic across the board. And so the way I've tried to approach leadership studies is, how do we, if we believe, and this is a very Christian belief, if we believe that the Bible is the final authority for life and faith, then how do we draw leadership studies underneath the authority of God's Word? What does that look like? And so there are ways for, and I think this is apparent, I've done more work in sociology lately, so I'll use an example from there, but when you look at something like the way religion is treated within sociology, it looks at the phenomenon of religion, but not the actual substance, we might say, of religion. In other words, it doesn't acknowledge God as a present sociological actor. Right, and so you can see a lot of the stuff that's going on, and you can recognize in the way that practicing religion might have this or that effect on someone's life, but you're not really fully understanding the underlying dynamics of why that's working because you're bracketing out the theological. And so, I think it's a really difficult, I would say it's really difficult, I think, between other disciplines, excluding theology for the moment, just any discipline is gonna have that sort of underlying tension, although I take your point that the testing methodologies are probably easier in some scientific disciplines than others, but then there's this other side of it where I sit back and I say, just like you did, theology doesn't need to be incorporated into those disciplines, those disciplines need to be sitting under the authority of a right understanding of God's Word. Fair enough. That's exactly right. And well, so for instance, I mean, you mentioned a little bit about servant leadership, and that's one of the things that, thankfully, I was able to study, but from actually a secular perspective, servant leadership. So even the term servant leadership is a relatively new term. It was coined in the 1970s by a guy by the name of Robert Greenleaf, who worked at AT&T. And now, he was a believer, but, and so I definitely would say it seems that servant leadership has its roots in the scriptures, but there are professors, teachers, programs, organizations that have adopted a servant leadership mindset or model and philosophy that have little to do with the scriptures. But now, I would argue, I think the same with what you're saying is, yes, but if the scriptures point to servant leadership, perhaps that's the subtext or the foundation in which servant leadership is best placed. And as Christians, we should draw those connections. We should show and demonstrate how the different philosophies of leadership that are out there are actually connected and rooted, rather, in the scriptures. And that sounds like what you're doing in that class, so I think that's fantastic. That was the attempt. Well, that's good. That's a helpful discussion. I think, you know, the field of leadership studies, I haven't done as much with it lately just because I'm in a different context. I think when I was an academic dean and actually leading a lot of people, I was much more involved with it. And so I was reading more broadly in leadership theory and really got into the social identity theories of leadership, which I'm not sure you're familiar with, really interesting stuff. But now I've kind of, my focus has shifted and I'm doing different things, but I will say I think I resonated with a lot of the leadership studies because they gesture to sort of what we might say is biblical patterns, although they were not explicitly biblical patterns, but you could see how some of that would resonate. They're just stopping short of actually going, and God said to do this, and look how it works when it's in leadership. You know what I'm saying? They're not making that connection explicit. Yeah, exactly. Right. And well, so for instance, I mean, you mentioned a little bit about servant leadership and that's one of the things that, thankfully, I was able to study, but from actually a secular perspective, servant leadership. So even the term servant leadership is a relatively new term. It was coined in the 1970s by a guy by the name of Robert Greenleaf, who worked at AT&T. And now he was a believer, but, and so I definitely would say it seems that servant leadership has its roots in the scriptures, but there are professors, teachers, programs, organizations that have adopted a servant leadership mindset or model and philosophy that have little to do with the scriptures. But now I would argue, I think the same with what you're saying is, yes, but if the scriptures point to servant leadership, perhaps that's the subtext or the foundation in which servant leadership is best placed. And as Christians, we should draw those connections. We should show and demonstrate how the different philosophies of leadership that are out there are actually connected and rooted, rather, in the scriptures. And that sounds like what you're doing in that class. So I think that's fantastic. That was the attempt. Well, that's good. That's a helpful discussion. I think, you know, the field of leadership studies, I haven't done as much with it lately just because I'm in a different context. I think when I was an academic dean and actually leading a lot of people, I was much more involved with it. And so I was reading more broadly in leadership theory and really got into the social identity theories of leadership, which I'm not sure you're familiar with. Really interesting stuff. But now I've kind of, my focus has shifted and I'm doing different things, but I will say I think I resonated with a lot of the leadership studies because they gesture to sort of what we might say is biblical patterns, although they were not explicitly biblical patterns, but you could see how some of that would resonate. They're just stopping short of actually going, And God said to do this, and look how it works when it's in leadership. You know what I'm saying? They're not making that connection explicit. Yeah. And my main issue right now with the field of leadership, which I'm in, right? And so we're all in our fields and we all are trying to wave our hands. And this is the problem with the field that we're in, is that it's changing. It changes with the culture. And so the different, I mean, a brief history here. So leadership theories, the first ones that really were studied and came out were something known as like trait theory or great man theory, that these are the main characteristics of what makes a leader a great leader. And this was usually, it was typically formed in the 1940s, 1950s after World War II, right? And so we saw, hey, General Patton, that's the characteristics that makes a great leader or, you know, Eisenhower, whoever these leaders were, right? Roosevelt, Churchill, those characteristics, that's what makes a leader great. But then you continue on with time and you realize, well, actually, through like the civil rights movement, well, no, leadership is not about just a person, it's about a group of people. And so leadership studies, like leadership member exchange, other types of servant or other types of leadership came out of those movements. And then even into the 80s and the 90s, you look, you see more of transformational leadership, servant leadership. And so the leader is not the focal point, but actually the followers are the focal point. And then even to today, where you have more of a identity or group leading or cancel culture. And so you have this heavier emphasis on, it's not just the leader and it's not the leader, how they are leading people, but it's actually the people who are the leaders of an organization or a group or a movement. And the problem I have with that is it keeps changing because it changes with culture. And I think the importance of a class like what you're teaching is, well, what are the core truths of leadership? And let's find those core truths from theology and from the scriptures. Yeah, I would imagine it's really difficult to discern. Maybe it's not. So I guess it's a question, Chris, is it difficult to discern what is an evolution in leadership theory? So let's say movement from specific traits and, you know, that original, here's the strong man or the strong leader sort of theory. Here are the traits that you absolutely have to have, but to for the field to actually evolve past that and recognize that this was really just an example of something deeper that we're now recognizing versus an accommodation to that sort of cultural pressure that's saying, no, we can't have a strong man theory of leadership anymore, for instance, right, because that's just not appropriate. And saying that that's not appropriate is really more of a value judgment than it is a data driven recognition that no, this isn't actually how it works. This was just the way it presented back then. But what we can see through that is this deeper dynamic. Is it difficult to distinguish between those two? I think so. Because, and if I'm understanding you correctly, I think time forces us and forces leaders to perhaps adapt to the changes of the people and the people that they're leading. And adaptive leadership is actually a leadership theory. And so I guess maybe that's a good one to ascribe to, because and you know, and I had this when I taught a lot of undergrad students is particularly in the preaching classes is, you know, they, I had

It was kind of a thing and you know, like everybody just sort of lived with it. So it's interesting to watch those generational shifts and to think through how it might apply even in leadership settings. So yeah, adaptive leadership, I will say though, man, seems unfair. I mean, just the theory that leadership is going to change just seems like an unfair theory. Like you're always going to be right. Yeah, exactly. And it's interesting that you bring up the example with your kids, and I wonder, because that's the same shift, really, you can see in leadership in that leadership is shifted from maybe you say bullying, but you could also say facts or truth to people's feelings, emotions, empathy, which then, but it's important to note that because one day your kids will be in the workforce and maybe some of your listeners will be leading people like them. So that's why, hey, you can't just say, well, you know, figure it out on your own or get out of here because you're fired. You have to approach them with an empathetic, authentic, transparent, how can I help you leadership style and approach to help not just them succeed, but everybody succeed. So when you're doing, when you do your coaching and your consulting with different organizations, how much of it is helping a leader understand the environment in which he's leading? You know, the people he's leading, the environment in which he or she is leading, you know, how much of it is that and then constructing different tactical, maybe that's the wrong word, but different tactical approaches that he or she can go out and actually implement to better lead in that environment. Yeah. Well, I actually don't even start there. It's whenever I meet with them or I usually do these eight week online courses, it's the first several weeks is trying to understand yourself as a leader because, and oftentimes, and I didn't know this until, you know, I read up a lot more on leadership, but the first person that we actually lead is ourselves. And I think that's a major flaw in leadership today is that we oftentimes look at leaders and automatically look outward and to say, hey, here's what you need to be doing differently so that you can help your team, your organization. But actually the first thing we need to do is look inward and look at ourselves in the mirror as we are leaders and what are maybe our flaws or what are our strengths and why do we perceive things the way that we perceive? So for the first few weeks or the first few hours, if I'm working with them in a workshop is to do a lot of reflecting and some people don't like it because it's too feely, you know, and they're like, well, I'm a leader. I should be telling what the people do. But the first thing we need to do is actually think about ourselves as leaders. Then after that, the second half of, you know, the course is, okay, how do we actually listen to the people around us? How do we help them? How do we set them up for success? And then it's finally how do we work collaboratively as a team? And ultimately what we're trying to do is build trust in our team members and trust in our organizations and our churches with one another so that when we come to an agreement of our goals, of our ideas, we can trust one another that we're going to see them through. So I think your question was, how much of the culture do you look at? The culture comes and ultimately what you're trying to do is build a culture, but you can't build a culture without first identifying the people who are in the culture, understanding the values, both individually and collectively, and then working together towards those values and towards that ultimate ideal culture that you're trying to strive for. So that's interesting, man. I just had this experience recently. My daughter, well, my daughters and I, we pulled off. I was driving to lacrosse. We pulled off to get a snack at a gas station, which is sort of my go-to for snacks, I guess. And we're walking back out to the car and my younger twin daughter, four minutes younger, says to my older twin daughter, you know, you're a lot nicer to people when dad's around. And they're chuckling and I'm like, what are you talking about? And they're like, well, you know, sometimes dad, you're a little to the point. I think the word surly got thrown out there, right? So it's not like I'm not saying please or thank you, but they're like, it just, when you do it, it can come off as you're not catching all the social cues. You're in a, like, you have a mission, you're getting us to practice. And there's the potential for you to see these people in your way, right? They're impeding your mission kind of idea. And so I was like, wow, I would have never, it's like, you know, I'm doing the niceties, you know, please and thank you. And, but here's my 16 year old daughter, sort of making up for dad, being extra nice because they don't want it to seem like I'm a horrible human being. And so I was like, dang, I, I don't know that I would have caught that on self-reflection. I guess this is where I'm going. It seems like I'm wondering, yeah, this is what I'm wondering. I don't think I would have caught that on self-reflection. Like, I don't think I would have known that about myself. And I'm not sure I would have come to it just thinking in my own brain, even with somebody prompting me toward it. So how much of the self-reflection when you really do it with a leader gets corrected or expanded when you start getting that sort of feedback from other people? Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide, or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Yeah. Well, and I mean, that's a great question because I'm struggling with the word, I'm not struggling, but I'm pondering the word correction because it's hard to correct people's personalities, traits. But if they're aware of it, they can either tame those behavior habits or they could, you know, utilize them for good. Because, and if other people know that about others, then they know, okay, they're not coming at me because they're mad at me or angry. That's a personality trait that that's how they're wired in a sense. Now they can tone it down a little bit, but I think, yeah, I mean, my daughter, she, yesterday, she was explaining how she did poor on her math test. And so at recess, one of her friends came over to her and asked, what's wrong? And my daughter just said, stop. And her friend was like, no, no, what's wrong? She said, stop. And essentially my daughter was telling us because she said, I didn't want to talk about why I was feeling bad because of my math test. I just wanted her to stop. And I had to, my wife and I had to tell her like, well, she was reaching out, but saying the word stop is not a good response. You need to say why you don't want to talk to her so that she understands that there's nothing she's doing that's wrong, but you're just not in the right position or the right attitude, mindset to talk to her about that. So go apologize to her today. So hopefully she did that today, but just understanding the differences of people helps in all aspects of leadership. Right. So not necessarily a correction. That's probably the wrong word, but an expanded self-awareness that you're getting this sense. So like, yeah, I mean, we did that incident happened maybe five days ago or something like that. And I've since been to the store with my girls a few times and I've been, I've actually made an effort to be more polite and not just, you know, sort of beyond the mission, right? And so they've been joking with me, oh, that was the, you know, the kind and fluffy dad, not the, you know, the let's take the beachhead dad kind of person, which is cool. But I wouldn't say that it is correcting anything. I mean, I'm still getting everything I want to get done, done. I'm just doing it a little bit different way in a way that is probably more palatable, a more palatable version of me for the people that I'm interacting with. Yeah. Well, and here's the question, you know, you've heard it before, but what is the mission? Is the mission the task or is the mission people? Right. And this is a great complexity that

Jesus had, right, what was his mission on earth? Was it to go to the cross for the sacrifice of mankind's sins or was it to start a movement that would last until today, right? And that was the people. And he was able to balance both of those, right? He had two missions, right? It was to lead people but also to sacrifice himself. And that's the challenge that we all have in leadership is it's not just about a task, but it's about people. Yeah, yeah. So it's fun and interesting and challenging all at the same time. So well, that's good, man. Well, let's dive a little bit into your book. Let's talk a little bit about moving forward after messing up. I actually think this is a pretty good transition point because part of what you deal with in this is, okay, we've all made our mistakes. What do you do after you make the mistake? What does that look like? So why don't you give us a little bit of an intro into what prompted you to write the book, sort of where your heart's at with this book, and then we can dive into some of the specifics. Yeah, I would love to. Well, you know, books are oftentimes written from personal experiences. And so this was a personal experience that I had with myself and my brother, really. So going back many, many years, our father was diagnosed with cancer when we were teenagers. He passed away shortly after that. And essentially, my brother and I, our roads went in two different directions. So once my father died, I actually ended up going to a Bible college, went into full-time ministry, ended up getting married, kids, a career, more schooling, things like that. Whatever the opposite of that is, that's where my brother went. So he did go to college, but I like to say he majored in college life. So he went to a public university, dropped out after about a year and a half, moved to New Orleans, and then eventually moved to Colorado when Colorado changed some of their marijuana laws, was homeless, and is an alcoholic and a drug user, and essentially burned a lot of bridges with me, with family members, and we lost touch for several years. But then we were almost forced to get back together because our grandmother had passed away, and it was my job, my responsibility as his brother to let him know this, and I couldn't get a hold of him. And the reason I couldn't get a hold of him is because he was in jail. He was arrested a few weeks prior to that. And so, you know, this question of how, as a family member who loves the Lord, who loves Christ, how can I help this person move forward after they've messed up? And so that's why it starts, you know, I think with a personal, because a lot of the stories of books that I've read on, you know, recovery and things like that have often been from the perspective and the viewpoint of the person themselves who is an alcoholic or who is in prison, and then they turned their life around, and this is how they've done it. But I couldn't find anything on, well, what if you're a sibling trying to help somebody out? And so that's why I wanted to write the book, was for other people, because, and I've gotten to know people through this experience, and it seems like everybody has a brother or a sister, a cousin, an uncle who is an alcoholic or has been in jail or, you know, has messed up, you know, and needs some help moving forward. Now, and I'll say this, lastly, is in the process of that, I've realized, wow, I've messed up a lot myself as well. You know, Romans 3, all have fallen short of the glory of God. And my mess-ups, though, are just not as public as his were. And so it's also then, was helping me, okay, how do I move forward after my mess-ups as well, whether it's my mess-up as being a poor brother, a poor relative, or just my mess-ups in life, in my family, in my work, and in my church and so forth and such. Yeah, so recognizing that messing up isn't a matter of what consequences you suffer necessarily or how public those consequences are, but they're just sort of part of what we deal with in a fallen and broken world. We all mess up and we all have to figure out how to go from that messed up state back to a state in which we're reconciled with God on that particular issue. Exactly. Yeah, one of the main stories in the Bible that I use throughout the book is the prodigal son story. And, you know, your listeners are great, but they know the story. And while my brother obviously checks the boxes of the prodigal son, I check the boxes of the other, what you could say, prodigal son as well. And so I would just say, yeah, some of us are public prodigals and some of us are just private but functional prodigals. And we all need help to move forward. I like that, the functional prodigals. Yeah, we are, man. It's the daily grind of staying with the Lord even when you're in it, right? Even when, you know, your Bible's on your shelf all the time, you go to church regularly, but still, you're a functional prodigal if you're not, if you don't have your priorities right. You know, one of the things I've been talking about with, I lead a Bible study on Wednesday morning and then I've got some other people that I meet with and we just talk through life and different issues. And one of the things that's kept coming up recently is this idea of we're all in process. And the reason it's coming up is not just to say, you know, not to do the, you know, sort of I'm okay, you're okay thing, but to recognize that the Christian life isn't like a lightning bolt that just zaps you and all of a sudden you're okay now. That learning to observe all that Christ commanded is actually, it takes time. It takes effort. It requires circling back. And so as you think through, you know, moving forward after messing up, how much does that idea of time, patience, persistence, how does that play into what you think about this? Yeah, that's huge. For anybody who's going through recovery or walking that journey with somebody, it takes time. And it's often two steps forward, one step back a lot of times. And, you know, there's relapse that happens. There's other arrests that happen, but it's knowing that, hey, this is a marathon and not a sprint. And, you know, so that's thinking of my brother, thinking of myself, though, and I'm curious what you would say, because, you know, you have teenagers and you've been in this situation as well, I imagine. But for me, you know, I went to Bible college, seminary, and whenever you go to some deep theological institution and you're there for a short but intense amount of time, you know, you can be on fire for the Lord when you initially get there. And then afterwards, either while you're still there or even after you graduate, it seems like it just fizzles out, almost like the camp experience, you know, the summer retreats. Like, wow, we have this great experience. And then what do you do afterwards is how do you, how have you consistently or tried to, you know, fan that flame because it wasn't the same as when it first started. It wasn't, you know, as exciting as it was when it first started. So how have you perhaps maintained consistency or growth of, I mean, we're talking about sanctification. That's a theological word here. But how do you maintain that drive year in, year out, month in, month out, day in, day out? It's interesting. My experience was probably a little different than yours. So I did a little bit, I'm sort of in between you and your brother. I went to college and majored in the college experience for almost my entire undergrad degree and then was ultimately saved as a sophomore in college, but was largely resistant to adopting what I viewed as the Christian culture. And like, and in particular, I remember going on spring break with Campus Crusade and they were, you know, they were playing slow motion football. And I was like, this may be the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Like, I don't understand why we can't just play football like normal human beings might. I don't understand that either, but. Right. There were just a lot of things that rubbed me the wrong way and I was, you know, it wasn't that I was overly spiritual and I had these ethereal experiences that I could sit back and say, oh, this is wrong, thus saith the Lord. It was more that I was just too cool for school and didn't want to do it. Right. And so I, I always had to work at cultivating hope. I think my big spiritual challenge, if I had to sort of name it, would be cultivating any hope at all.

Apart from Christ. So the way I usually phrase it is, when I came to, when I placed my faith in Christ, I knew I loved Jesus. I wasn't sure about his people. And so, yeah, a lot of mine has been sort of this, my growth and sanctification has been cultivating, I think, a love for the church and learning to fit in, even when I think some things are kind of goofy. You know, but not fighting every fight, not pushing everybody, you know, not pushing everything around. And so I've had to tone myself back a lot. I still feel those feelings, but I think I've learned to deal with them in a more mature way. And so, you know, some of my favorite Bible passages are like Romans 14 and 15, where we talk about the strong and the weak and bearing with one another's burdens. And really, you know, and so that, that for me has been what I always go back to. It's in this moment, am I really helping this person who I'm standing in front of who I might deeply disagree with or this organization that I think is doing some goofy things? Am I appropriately prodding them toward Jesus, or am I just venting my frustrations? That kind of an idea. And so for me, one of the practices that I put in place is asking those kind of framing questions. And they usually come in the, and I don't usually advocate for this, but like an either or question, because I do think, you know, the answer will come in somewhere along a spectrum, but I think the either or questions really forced me to recognize that I'm at one of the poles most of the time. And so the framing questions really helped me. And then I think I've had to bring into my life a lot of people who are willing just to say hard things to me. And I know that they love me enough to speak those hard things to me. So these are not critics who are just angry. These are people like my wife. I mean, she's called me delusional multiple times in our marriage. And so that's helpful to me. It reminds me that I can get caught in my own head sometimes, you know, those kinds of things I think have been really powerful in my walk with Christ. Those people are willing to speak to me and the way I ask questions in my head and try to frame myself to a situation. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's so interesting. You know, you said for you, it was especially in, you know, early on as a believer, you loved Christ. You weren't so sure about his people. And I feel like when you grow up in the church, you love the church. You're not so sure about everything that Christ says. I mean, yes, you agree with the salvation part, but then, but you're really there because you love the people and it's that balance of both, right? It's the, the, the imperative to, to do both, to, to love the Lord, your God with all your heart, soul, and strength and your neighbor as yourself, right? To love one another. Yeah. No, my wife's like, that's where I'm at. I mean, I love the people. I love the church. I grew up in the church. Christ really wants me to die, you know, to give, to, um, to, you know, um, check myself before I, you know, go to this event or something like that, or not be selfish to be selfless. That's hard, you know? So it is. And I, I think, you know, my wife has called me, she, she describes me a lot of the times, and this is sort of our, she doesn't mean it in a mean way, but she's like, you're a generally disagreeable person. And like, she, I don't think she can conceive of somebody who like has their PhD, who's not somewhat generally disagreeable, right? Like we, that's what we do. We analyze things to, to do a dissertation. You really have to be very analytical and very discerning, and you have to learn to interrogate arguments and those kind of things. And so you not only develop a thick skin, but you also understand how to like really dive deep into something and go, well, is that really what you, I mean, we've even done it on this, you know, in this call, it's like, you know, um, are we really trying to say that somebody can correct their personality? Nope. That's not the right word. You know, and you kind of dig into those things. That's what she's pointing to, like that sort of general disagreeable kind of nature. And I think that's what I've had to, you know, if I, if I look back on my life with the Holy Spirit has really knocked the rough edges off. It's that disagreeableness and just to recognize that, Hey, there's a place for this. It's, you know, there's really great places for this. And then there's other places where it's probably a little detrimental. And so it just needs to be reined in and pulled back. So let me ask you a serious question. 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I'm going to tie this back to our previous conversation and the book because another example that I love throughout scripture is John 21, when Jesus essentially reinstates Peter and he asked him, do you love me? Do you love me? Do you love me? And he says, you know, I love you. And Jesus' response is, well, go care about the things that I care about, right? Feed my sheep, feed my lamb, take care of them. Care about the things that I care about. And so for one, I love it because God is always on the shore of our lives, calling us back to him, just like he called back to Peter after the denial. And so whenever we've messed up, he's there calling us back. And what is he asking us to do to both love him and then care about what he cares about and do it in a manner that is honoring to him. Yeah, I like that a lot. I don't know that I've ever exactly read it that way, but I like that. I like that. Well, I think I probably get around that, but I just think the way you phrased it just makes it kind of clear. That's what Jesus is doing. He's trying to get Peter to understand that to love him means to love the things that he loves in the way he wants you to love them, to love on Jesus's terms as opposed to loving what we want and on our terms. And whether that aligns with Jesus doesn't really matter a whole lot. Yeah. Well, yeah. In that text, what I find so interesting is he says, he starts the question. Jesus starts the question with Peter's, Hey, do you love me more than these? And the question is, what does he mean by these? Are you saying you love me more than the other disciples? But what's there on the beach is this huge catch of these fish. I think there's like 154 and it's like, why are there that many? Why does John take the time to put the exact number of fish? Because somebody counted how many there were. And I think that's what Jesus is referring to. Hey, do you love me more than your past life as a fisherman? And that's where he starts these questions. You know that I love you. Well, then take care of the things that I love, not fish, but people, not your past, but your future. So when you kind of connect that into moving forward after messing up, how do you see that sort of playing in? Is it a reorientation to what Jesus loves? That sort of imitation of Christ picking up his desires and setting aside our own, that kind of idea that, that Is that part of the process? Yeah, exactly. The hard part that I'm struggling with is that my brother, he's not a believer. So I'll just kind of spoiler alert. He's a lot better off than where he was. He's not in jail anymore. He went through rehab, did a relapse back to rehab. Finally got out. Our relationship is a lot better because one, we're talking, we talked just about a couple of times a month, but actually I got to see him for the first time in about seven years, no, 10 years, I think this last Thanksgiving as well as Christmas. And so, you know, our relationship has, has improved. But it, I mean, like you mentioned, it just takes time for that to happen. That doesn't answer your question. So my apologies for that. No, it's okay. I'm wondering, because I think it's an important wrinkle to the question, which is There's a way to help people move past the sins they were committing and cope in a way that would be viewed as a more, let's say sociable within society. Yeah. Without them actually coming to Christ

Sort of the transformation we experience in Christ. And so I think it's a really important wrinkle. And where we, maybe the question is, how do you avoid settling for that? Yeah. I mean, I guess you can, and maybe I'm getting this wrong, and you can correct me, but maybe you can do it in the sense of either some people need a explosive moment and other people need more of a tugboat where you just kind of push, push, push in the right direction. I think of the, I can't remember how many years ago it was, but there was that tanker that was stuck in the, it was at the Suez Canal and it was like sideways and it like, you know, disrupted the whole world. And the way that they were able to get it back is they had to just nudge it just a little bit at a time so they could get, you know, parallel to the shoreline so they can finally, you know, send the tankers through. And sometimes people need that. They just need a little tug, tug or push, push in the right direction. Other times, hey, you just need to take some dynamite in there and let, you know, pull it up to smithereens so that it's a, it's one of those occasions. So, but people are different. People are unique. God's made us all in different ways and we all need different things. Maybe it goes back to the adaptive leadership component too, adaptive relationships. I think it's just interesting, like when you say that, those two strategies, you know, the nudging versus the blowing up, you can see in there, and I can kind of think of examples in my head where I've watched people try to blow it up. It doesn't work and then they just write somebody off. Or when they've tried to nudge somebody and they get tired of nudging them. It's like that boat in the Suez Canal, well, this nudging isn't working, forget it. We'll just find another way around, right? We'll dig another canal. Let's just leave the boat there, right? And so there's a sense in which I think we can settle, let people settle where they are and just go, they're good enough where they are. But for Christians, that's not really the right option. It can't be the end game. And so, you know, as people are trying to help others get past what they've done wrong, I guess that's my question is, how do you avoid that complacency? What does that look like for you to get, you know, let's say, you know, 20 years down the road, your brother still where he's at right now. You know, how do you not just sort of sit in and go, well, I guess that's just where he's going to be. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's tough, you know, because what hit me with the story of the prodigal son and Tim Keller makes this point is it's one of three stories. And, you know, the first one, the shepherd loses the sheep. He goes and searches for it. The woman, she loses a coin. She searches for it. And then the son is lost. No one searches for it. Whose responsibility? Well, in the first century, it was the older brother's responsibility to go after his son. And Jesus' point to the Pharisees is, hey, you who believe you're walking close with God, it's your responsibility to go after the lost things, the lost people of Israel, and to bring them into the fold. And when there is, the father will celebrate. But they weren't. And so that was convicting to me to know, okay, it is my responsibility as the one who's walking with God to go after those who are far from him. And so I can't be complacent. So what does that mean? What does it look like? It means, you know, for instance, this last Christmas, he surprised, I guess right after Christmas, my brother relapsed. So I was, my family and I, after Christmas, we always visit with my mom and stay with her for a few days. And my brother surprised us at my mom's house unannounced, shows up at 9 p.m. that night. And he's, granted, he's in Colorado. My mom's in Florida. So he flew across the country, shows up at 9 p.m. that night. And over that time, too, is my anniversary with my wife. And so on my anniversary, because my brother's there, somebody needed to be with him. And so I, my brother and I went out to dinner on my anniversary, on my wedding anniversary, right? And my wife's very understanding, very gracious. We had other things planned at other times, too. But all that to say is, yeah, sometimes it's going to take sacrifice and to go after the things that God cares about. And now, ultimately, though, we can't, we are not the Holy Spirit, right? We, it's the Holy Spirit who moves people. We have to do what only we can do and let God do what only he can do with the opportunities that he gives us. Yeah, definitely. Well, Chris, I appreciate you giving me as much time as you've given me today. We're kind of running up on time to the end of the episode. And so I like to, I don't know, surprise guests with a final question, so this won't be totally off the cuff. But you can answer it however you want. What do you think the church is missing today that we need to start catching in order to be and make disciples more faithfully? Oh, yeah, yeah. You didn't prepare me for that one. I know. It's meant to be a surprise, so. It is a surprise. Here's what I would say, but perhaps it's because the Lord was speaking to me today when I was, as I was reading. Oh, who was it? It wasn't John Stott. He had another quote, but it was something along the lines of people spend 99% of their time outside of the church building. And so as believers, particularly people in ministry, we need to go where the people are. And that's not necessarily the church building. And so how can we show people and demonstrate to them and teach them that their work matters? And how can we help them turn their work into worship, that their work is worship for God? And so it's looking outside of the walls of the church, helping believers to realize that wherever they are, wherever God has placed them, that they can worship and glorify God, whether it's making airplanes or teaching classes in secular schools or being at home around the dinner table. Wherever you are, that's worship. Okay, that's good. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's come up a few times for me lately is kind of finding the, for lack of a better term, the theological and mundane things. So, yeah, really cool, man. I love that. No, it's meant to be a surprise just so I can get extemporaneous answers from people. So, no, very good, Chris. Hey, man, thanks for being on. And for everybody who's listening, just encourage you to check out Faithful Steps Forward, Chris's leadership coaching and consulting arena. And I just recommend his book, Moving Forward After Messing Up. I'll have links to both in the show description. And so I just, I recommend both wholeheartedly. I was able to, I didn't check out the leadership consulting. I just found out about that before we were on the show, but I will. I'm going to go and check that out. So the links will be in the show notes. So go check those out, everybody. And Chris, again, thanks for being here. Thanks for having this conversation. Just appreciate the work you do and the way you think. And I do think leadership and leadership studies are just such an important part of what it's going to take for the church to be and make disciples as we go forward. So thanks very much for what you do. Well, thank you, James. Thanks for having me. Thanks for all you do. And, you know, let me know how the class goes because maybe I'll steal some stuff from you and in my own show. Will do. Will do. Take care, everybody. And we'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. 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