Thinking about Our Fast-Paced Lives: A Conversation with Jody Grubbs

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, onto today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Jodi H. Grubb. She is the author of a book called Live Slowly, A Gentle Invitation to Exhale. She's also on sabbatical from her podcast, but it is going to be coming back, Our Island in the City, and she is also a slow life advocate. Jodi, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here this morning. James, thank you for inviting me on your podcast. I'm excited about our conversation today. Yeah, absolutely. Why don't we, just to get started, why don't you give the readers a little bit of a background of how you came to this book. You've got a really interesting backstory that sort of leads into it, and so I think readers or listeners would be interested in hearing about that. Yeah, so I grew up as a missionary kid on an island called Bonaire. It's near Aruba in the Caribbean. We lived there 16 years, so I joke that island living is in my blood. It's all I know. Those were my formative years. And then fast forward to moving to the U.S. for the first time and college. I got married young and my husband was in a horrific wreck due to some road rage, some slowing down and then some opposite of not slowing down. And he ended up passing away two and a half years later from the injuries. And so obviously that was a huge part of my life going through tragedy when I was young. So part of me slowed down for that and I had to be present. And then part of me just to block out some of the pain, just start getting busy again, which is kind of what we do. And so there was a time when I just had to slow down again and say, Jodi, you know how to do this. Go back to your island roots. So I had to do it a few times, James. Why I was interested as I was reading through this, you got to a chapter and I'm just going to kind of pop around so the listeners understand. I'm just going to pop around to various topics and we'll have a good conversation about some of the areas in the book. But one of the ones that stood out to me was the chapter on understanding capacity. Capacity is something as I go out and consult with organizations, capacity is something that I use an awful lot on an organizational side. And I've thought a little bit about how to use it on an individual side, but I haven't really explored it to the depth that you have. So can you just talk a little bit about that idea of capacity and why it's so crucial for slowing down? Sure, James. So on a personal level, and I've had to just do this with myself and with other people who come to me and just want me to to help and advise them a little on how to pace themselves, really. So the easiest thing for me, I'm visual. So the easiest thing for me is to think of an object like a little scallop shell. Do you have that kind of capacity right now? Or are you in a season where you are just stretched so thin? If someone asks you to do one more thing, do you think, yes, or do you think I can barely make it through the day? So it just goes through four, four different sizes, if you will, size yourself all the way up to a beach bucket or a pail. And so I just ask people, what what do you envision when you think about how much you can hold? That's what capacity is, just how much we can hold. And I think we don't think of emotionally and mentally holding space, but it's just as much as just the go and the do and the be. So if that starts to answer your question a little bit. It does. It's interesting. So I've been I've been involved in weight training for a long time since I was 14 years old. And one of the terms I've sort of run across lately has been systemic exhaustion or systemic fatigue. And it's this idea that even though I could keep doing, let's say, bicep curls or tricep extensions or something like that, because of the cumulative effect of the workout that I've been doing, I'm just mentally exhausted. My system is sort of done. My body is tired, even though maybe particular muscles could keep going. Do you think about that in terms of capacity? Like, does that ring true with your understanding of how capacity would work, that you can get so just burn out doing everything that even though you could pick up, you know, let's say you have the capacity of a big bucket, right? And you could fill that up a little more if you're if your churn of life is such that it's exhausting you emotionally in a number of different ways, even though you you seem like you have the time and the space to to fill, you know, to fill that in. You're really just exhausted. Am I am I kind of understanding that right? That's exactly right. That's exactly right. I, I didn't realize how capacity I hadn't thought about the word until just a few years ago. I didn't realize that's what I was doing, but I didn't know how to name it. So a friend of mine, Andy Colber, really helped me through that, just bringing that word out to the surface. And so I think we don't understand that we we can we have agency. We can say no to something because we just are going to say no, not because, you know, we're maybe not tired that day or we look like we're fine, we're healthy. So I think it just goes back to empowerment and advocacy. We're the only ones who really know us and know what we're capable of and what our capacity is. So part of my job is just helping people understand they don't have to people please because that's a huge part of burnout. So if we can sort of dial back to what's your capacity, I could look at you right now and think he looks totally healthy. He looks fine, but I don't know, you know, what's going on in your in your personal life and your business, things like that that might be causing you to hold something heavy that I cannot see. Yeah, I think it's interesting that you use these four categories for slowing down. So obligations or what I must do, life giving rhythm, things I enjoy, life drainers, I'm worn out and boundaries. I can say no, those four areas. And I find those really helpful. And I guess when I was reading through it, what I wondered was, you know, there's there's always this issue of us allowing people to cross boundaries that we probably shouldn't let them cross. You know, like you mentioned, people pleasing and this desire to sort of get everything done and to be helpful and and to be dependable, all those kind of aspects. Do you counsel people to sort of step back from some of those things? You know, so if you've let's say you've you've obligated yourself to something that now you're looking back and saying, I just do not have the capacity to do that. That comes with its own sort of exhaustion, right? Knowing that you've extended your capacity. So how do you counsel people when they find themselves in that sort of a situation? What do you what do they do? Well, so I look at this quadrant and I say, is it life giving? And if they say, well, not really anymore. Right. Then we put it down in the category where it's draining. It's not life giving anymore. And so they're like, yeah, but I still I'm still obligated to do it. Like I can't take it off my my list. And so I say, well, let's be a little more reasonable. Like instead of just putting it in boundaries, like, no, I'm going to stop today. Let's look ahead. Is it is it April and you realize something will end by May? Do you think you can hang in a little longer and finish it out? Then that might be reasonable. But if there's an obligation where it's things have changed, things have shifted from when you said yes, it really is OK to revisit that. People are more kind and generous than we realize. So, you know, I was coaching a woman who wanted to step down from something big and she thought she would let everyone down. They would just be mad at her. And finally, she did it and she didn't even get a thing. You know, she didn't get a single response. And she had done something for two years. And I said. They didn't really you know, they were gonna say yes as long as you could give. Right. You know, and she said, well, things have changed. I need more time with my kids now instead of volunteering. And so I think speaking up, you know, is important because she got so much freedom to move into other areas that could go back into her life giving situation. There might be something else. I give an example in the book, you know, if you're caring for an elderly parent, you know that won't be forever. But, you know, maybe it's an honor to do that for that year or two. So be present. But then you're gonna have to cut out some other things. You just won't have the capacity. So maybe saying no to people pleasing if there's a church event or a Bible study. You don't you don't have to go to that, you know. You know, there'll be another time. You know, one of the things that you you kind of follow up that chapter

Just as you're giving that example, I'm remembering a thought I had when I read it. There's this aspect of, sometimes when I'm thinking through this, how do I slow down, and I'm thinking about what I'm going to have to give up in order to fulfill a particular obligation, just like you're saying, the last couple of years of a parent's life or something like that, that you are really and should really take care of those people. Do you help people, or how would you help people sort of reframe that from an obligation to something that actually is life-giving? I think there's these times, I guess, in my life where I've entered into a situation out of obligation and said, this is going to take a lot of effort. It's going to be a lot of work. I don't know that I really want to do all of this. Like, there's going to be an odd mix of life-giving and life-ripping sort of issues in here. But usually when I come out of it, and I take the time to reflect, I've grown an awful lot through that. And so how do you handle some of the initial perceptions of something that might not appear to be life-giving, but that is ultimately going to strengthen a person and actually, I don't know, make them more robust, maybe even expand their capacity? Yeah, that's a big question, James. But it's true. It happens to us often throughout the years. For myself, I've just had to go back to even some of my own slow living shifts and say, acceptance has been a big one. If I've had to go back to something and Say, once we accept that we've had to slow down and be present in this thing we've said yes to, it takes a little bit of the edge off. It may not take the burden we're carrying off. We're responsible, but acceptance goes a long way to saying just, I talk about open-handedness before God. Okay, God, you know, I don't, I don't always think there's a lesson to learn in something necessarily. I know maybe that's controversial, but I just think, you know, God is so kind and we learn things, but there's not always a lesson. Maybe, maybe it's just a different way of being or a shift or a, you know, a direction. And so, like you said, we grow. So if we can accept something, then we have the chance to grow. If we don't, we just become bitter. We become burnt out. So acceptance is a really, really big thing. And then just being present to, to others, to yourself, to God. When I've had to slow down and do something I didn't really want, there were times when once I just accepted it. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. And I was still before God, that's when I started, my brain started working. I started almost brainstorming, you know. Some people call it whispers from God and it just, it had, there were doors that opened as other people reached out to me. I had the time and the space to hold that and say, what's going forward? And in that, some of the most life-giving things came out of that, but it wouldn't have gone in the box that day or that week. Yeah. Do you find that people go through something akin to, you know, the different stages of grief as they're having to take on some of these bigger challenges? Because you almost have to move toward acceptance, don't you? Like, I agree, I think we have to accept the life that God has given us, right? And recognize it as the gift that he is giving and that it's a good gift, right? Whatever oddities are going on or suffering is happening, like, it's something that we accept from God, but there's almost always a process of getting there. So how do you see people walk through that process? Have you thought through that at all? Yeah, it is very similar to the stages of grief where you have to accept something. So that's that acceptance part, you know, then you do go through, I've gone through times where I've just felt angry. Like, what in the world? You know? And then I feel bad. I think, oh, was I, should I have been so angry? But you know, you have to feel, you have to feel and deal. Yeah. So you just go through these stages because it's not always what we wanted. We want to have control and we don't really have as much control as we think we do. We have agency, but we don't have control. That's right. That's right. Well, that sort of brings, I guess, another question. So as we're, as you're thinking about the slower lifestyle and we're thinking about, you know, things you might have to stop doing in order to add something that you're maybe obligated to do, that you're maybe, you know, kind of pushed into that you wouldn't have chosen otherwise. Are there some things that you would say you can't get rid of? You know, those, those baseline activities that have to be safeguarded because they're so crucial to getting through anything else that you just can't ever eliminate them. How do you, how do you help people think through that? Yeah, there are things that we, we can't, you know, we have to take care of our health. We have to eat right, maybe go for a walk, go to the doctor, things like that. Those are non-negotiables if you have children or aging parents, that's going to be on your obligations list. You know, if, if your children say are in a private school, you might need to work part time to get through that season. Um, yeah, there's just different, there's different things, but they always coincide with some of the self-care and slow living aspects. Um, so that stillness and solitude, if you don't also put that in the mix, you're going to end up resentful. Those obligations are going to just start dropping down. They're like heavy weights and they'll just start dropping down into that, you know, that category where it's opposite of life-giving and it's life draining. Um, I don't know if that answers your question, but it's a deep, a lot to think about. Yeah, I mean, when you think about that slow living, I guess maybe the, maybe the better way to ask the question is, what are the essentials of that slow living? What does it really look like? You know, does it, does it have consistent characteristics across people or is it unique to everyone? Um, I, I think it goes back to some pretty elementary type things, which is just being present. So being present with God, being present with other people, um, being present with yourself to, to get to know yourself. Um, stillness is a big one. So it doesn't matter who you are, where you are. If you're young or old, um, it's interesting. I, when I coached people, so I thought about this, I've coached a CEO of a company and, you know, he enjoyed that, loved that. And then I coached a stay-at-home mom and then I, I coached a pastor's wife who also works in a busy, um, public area. And so they're very different people, but some of the same things could apply to them of just, uh, the big one was just saying no to things that aren't life-giving because it drains us to the point where we can be bitter, whether in we're in ministry or not. Um, so I think, but being present, it's amazing when you practice those two things, those are universal. Being still, because even people who are um, type A and just extroverts, they need that stillness and solitude to be who they are. You know? So I'm seeing those two are the big ones that just keep popping up with, with everyone. And then other people, you know, it's, it depends on your personality. Some people need to feel empowered to, to slow down. Um, other people say, nope, I'm going to slow down because that's what I'm going to do. I'm in control. Um, you know, these, these soul care practices and there's rhythms that you can add into your life. I'm not real big on the word balance because nothing is weighted the same. That's not universal. We are all in different, different places. Yeah. Yeah. I know I've tried to remove balance from the equation as well. I, I agree. It's not my favorite word. I have a feeling I slip into it occasionally, but um, when you think about it, it's never really balanced. You're always, you know, sort of doing something other than balancing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so as we, as I went through the book then, uh, one of the other things that I found really interesting,

And I'll go back to this idea of awakening to beauty. And you talk a little bit about, and maybe these two concepts are gonna come together, but you talk about the idea of a sanctuary. And then in the Awakening to Beauty chapter, you talk about a simple cozy morning rhythm. And so maybe help me understand a little bit, is there a connection between sanctuary and rhythm that you're trying to create in the book? And then what can those various sanctuaries look like for folks? Yeah, this is one of my favorite things to talk about. When I, when I was podcasting for three years and I'll be back soon, I would end asking each guest the question, where's your soul care sanctuary? So I was just so curious. Everybody has one, whether they know it or not, or they don't know to name it. And now they, now they do. They're like, oh my gosh. So if you, first, if we want to talk about sanctuary, it's a safe place. So safety could be in your mind. If, you know, I've had to have a place that is special to me in my mind from my childhood. Like I was laying on this yellow raft in the middle of the reef. That was like very anchoring for me and quiet time with God and nature. I've had to take that image in an MRI that I had to have a few years ago because it was just, it was scary to do this MRI and I had to be grounded. And so going back to that soul care sanctuary was important. And then other people have it physically, you know, on their, on their walk at work every day, there's a little bench with some roses and they sit there for two minutes and that's the first thing they think about. That's their soul care sanctuary. Or maybe I have an old chair in your bedroom and you just sit there with your morning coffee and, and that's it. So everyone has a different version of it. You know, so if you take that, you can put it into a sort of like pouring it into yourself. We have to get filled with things. If we take sanctuary and pour it into the rhythms that we have, watch how that flows. You might need more, you know, more spaces, more time for sanctuary than you think, you know. And is it, is sanctuary different than the activities that I do that are life-giving? Yeah. Yeah. So when I was reading and I found myself wondering, like, could the weight room be my sanctuary if I'm putting in that sort of effort in the weight room, right? Is that really a sanctuary or is that just something I enjoy and is life-giving versus something that I need to think through, like, like you have a morning routine. I don't have a morning routine. I just don't have it. I usually wake up, get the kids out the door, you know, and I'm in the car, you know, in traffic pretty quick, you know, like I just don't have a lot of that moment in the morning. And usually I find, you know, that sort of sense of calm and, and I guess release in the weight room. And so I'm wondering if that counts or whether there's something that, you know, is there an active sanctuary that we can have or are the sanctuaries more where we really do need to have that sort of still, quiet, reflective moment where we're really only attending to God and our environment and ourselves. I think both. Your face lit up when you talked about the gym. So that means to me, it's not just this crazy loud place where you feel, you know, it's, it's not. And so that, that could be a sanctuary for you. And I'm sure as you're lifting weights, you think about a lot of deep things, you know. And so that could be, but then I would also say when you, when you reach just a really hard time in life and you need to just get away for a few minutes, you probably won't get in your car and drive over to that gym. So if you have a place on your front porch, you know, and we all are in seasons, you know, I'm in a different season than you. My daughter's almost 19, so I can have a more of a morning routine that feels right for me. I couldn't when she was little, probably we'd be in the same boat. So, you know, it's just, and you know yourself, that's the thing is, you know, I want to push agency and empowerment and slow living because what feels right for you is gonna be different for somebody else. So for me, years on and off, I've been in a gym. They weren't very, It's like, They weren't calming. Yeah. They weren't calming for me, but for you, I can, I can see how that would be. So it's, yeah, it's perfectly fine to say that's my, my soul care sanctuary because, you know, now if you were just working on something and watching a news report while you were doing it, I'd say no, but some people can be extremely introspective while they're walking or at the gym, or even in traffic. I have a friend who her soul care time is in the car. It's the only time it's really quiet. So yeah. Okay. That's helpful. I, you know, I, I think there's, as I think about the cadence of my life and I have, you're right. We are a different space. My son's 18. I have two 15 year old daughters and then we're adopting a three-year-old. And so it's a very, The mornings are a little busy. And so, you know, as we think about what that cadence looks like and how to guard our time and what those boundaries need to look like, I think, and maybe what I've done is I've tried to reserve Fridays as basically a free day for me. That's why I can get almost anything I wanted to done. And that's going to be the end of my week. And I'm gonna sort of get some tasks done, obviously, but that's a lot. That's when I do a lot of my creative work as well. And so it gives me a longer time period on that day, you know, three or four hours of blocked time to just sort of be involved in that creative work and those kinds of things. But I, I just found the whole idea of a sanctuary interesting. And I wanted to clarify, you know, what, what goes on in people's sanctuaries, but they can be almost anywhere is what I'm hearing. As long as there's a reflective, as long as it's conducive to reflectiveness or presence. Is that what I'm hearing? Yes, that's exactly. I'm just, I'm writing that down as we talk because I love that word reflective. I'm gonna use that more. Yeah. I think, I think you really hit it. That's, that is what it is. Yeah. Well, I think the other topic, this is something I've thought of an awful lot. We, we run a campaign called Go Dark, Shine Bright, where we encourage people to hop off of social media for five to seven days and just sort of calm their brains down, replace that activity with biblical reading, prayer, those kinds of things. And the whole notion was that the social media is competing with prayer. It's competing with Bible study, that these are activities that we're volunteering ourselves and our time to, that we don't really need to. That's not necessarily true for all people. I know that some people have to use it for work or what have you, but there's almost always a voluntary aspect that you could get rid of. But what it's, what the question has raised for me is, you know, in our day-to-day society, a lot of things have changed to since like looking at, let's say Jesus's day or the Old Testament. You know, when they're fasting in the new Testament or the old Testament, they're gaining back a lot more time than we are because the food preparation, the time it would have taken to actually go out and get the food, to, to get it all ready to sit down and eat it. It's just different than what we have. And for some of us, it may be skipping 10 minutes in a McDonald's drive-through and, you know, scarfing down a burger on the road. Like that's not, that's nowhere near as much time as was being saved and dedicated over to spiritual life in previous times. And so I guess I'm wondering, you know, as you, as you help people establish these rhythms of stillness and slowness in their lives, how do you account for some of those efficiencies that we've developed through technology that just make our lives that much easier? And so when we're getting rid of things, we're not really getting rid of that much. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's a deep question. Wow. I'm thinking even in my own life, I, I have started reading a whole lot more again. I missed it. I don't read a lot when I'm, you know, when I wrote this book, I don't want other people's thoughts in my head, but I just missed it. And so I am just inhaling books now that I've wanted to, or books that my friends are writing. And so, yeah, I'm finding myself feeling empty and drained when I get on social media and then be upset that I spent 22 minutes when I'd said I was gonna spend two. How did that happen? So that, what you're bringing up is an ongoing thing. There could be a few people here and there that that doesn't happen to, but when I talk to people, most of us scroll and we don't realize we're scrolling. So it's not fun to talk about this. It's like, oh no, James, I'm not going to give up my social media. But it does.

Take, you know, and then I've never thought about it the way you're talking about, like in Jesus's time. I mean, they were present. Again, it goes back to being present. And, you know, so I think bringing the intentionality and presence to what we're doing will sort of enlighten us to say, okay, put the phone down. Like, yes, that 20 minutes of reading my book is so transformational compared to my 20 minutes of scrolling. Right, right. It's just a different sort of interaction with media that you're dealing with. It requires something more of you than just flipping your thumb up on the screen kind of deal. You know, I read a book recently on technology and the character of contemporary culture is the name of it. And this gentleman who wrote the book, Albert Borgman, I believe is his name. He distinguishes between devices and things. And he uses the analogy, a thing would be a wood burning stove. And you think about all the things that have to happen in order for you to get heat to heat your house, heat to cook your food. You think about how that becomes a locus for your family interactions, that wood burning stove. You know, somebody had to go out and cut the wood and bring it in. So, you know, you're now all gathered around it to get hot, you know, get warm and to eat food versus a thermostat. Wow, yeah. And so there's this element in a lot of the philosophy of technology that we're using right now that I think are keeping us from living more slowly by fooling us into thinking that by pulling in these efficiencies, we're going to have more time to spend with other people. That's true. Yeah, I kind of want to say ouch, but you're right. It really does. I mean, I think it fools us into thinking that we don't need these sanctuaries. Right. And what's hard, James, is there's a different culture here in the U.S. than in many countries in other places in the world. And I write a little bit about that in my book. It's, you know, people are very much into spending time outside and time with family and lingering. Lingering is a big thing instead of just getting on to the next thing. And, you know, so there are ways to do it if we're willing, you know, to go there. I don't think it's easy just because we've been conditioned, you know. You almost have to be really intentional about it all the time because it's not structured into our environment. I mean, you grew up in Bonaire. Do you live in Bonaire now? I don't. I don't. I live in Raleigh. Raleigh, North Carolina. But still, I'm betting my wife and I used to live in Chicago. And what we found is when we moved out of Chicago, we lived downtown Chicago. And so when we moved out of Chicago, the first thing we noticed was it was quieter. It was nowhere near as fast-paced. And we had easier sleep at night. We had, you know, you could actually see the night sky. Like all those different things. And we just moved to the suburbs. It wasn't like we moved to a farm or something like that. But it was a noticeable difference. And so, I mean, if you think about the difference between Raleigh and Bonaire, do you notice how that sort of structuring is the culture or the cultural structuring is just different? Oh, it is. It is different. I was going down a little street in Main Street the other day and these two guys were talking with their cars facing each other. So I just had to wait for a minute. And I remember doing that on Bonaire. You would just wait until they were done talking if you couldn't go around safely. You would not beep your horn. And so I just kind of thought, well, I'll just do this. And it was only a minute or two. You know, it wasn't like I was late where I was going. And it allowed them to talk. And I thought, that is so strange. I told that story and people are like, oh, no, no, that can't happen. Like, we gotta get on with things, you know? So, yeah, you have to intentionally put yourself in the direction, in the path of slow living. Yeah. Do you, you know, my wife and I just, we just got back from vacation Sunday. We were able to go over to Germany and then spend a few days in Rome and Italy, which was a real treat for us. We haven't done like a real vacation for a while. And so I noticed that cadence. Germany, it's when you sit down at a restaurant, it's almost difficult to get someone to wait on you. You're not sure whether they've seen you. You're not sure whether they know you're there. And so I found myself, you know, initially sitting at these places and being like, well, maybe I should just go up and ask someone. And then by the end of the week, I was just sort of, no, this is, this is just how it works. Somebody will be by whenever they feel like being by. And you just plan your time accordingly. You're not going to go out to a restaurant quickly, generally. You're going to go out to a restaurant for an extended period of time. And everybody's sort of expecting you to hang out. It's, it's a very different feel to what we get in American restaurants where you're kind of moved along. Right, right, right. Or you leave a little bit bigger tip because you stayed an extra hour than you planned to. That's right. You got to pay for the table. Yeah. Well, when you think about, when you think about this idea of soul care, it's chapter eight, actually, soul care for a slowdown life. And, you know, obviously we're talking about a lot of societal forces sort of pushing us away from this slowdown life. How do those soul care practices really condition us to resist those, those things that are pushing us to go faster? Yeah. Well, I think it goes back to, to presence and intentionality. You know, it's, it's one of those things where you have to have something hit where you realize, wait, this isn't working for me. I do want to slow down. Or I, I talk about finding that sustainable pace because it scares people to think of slowing down. You know, we don't want to stop. We can't stop. So when you have various soul care practices, it helps. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed with inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty? More families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. tether you, I think, to a slower pace. It tethers you to God, to other people, to yourself. And you can pull in beauty with that. You know, some people, I used to just take pictures of flowers on my walk and not necessarily to post it or to write about it, but just to document it, you know, just being with people. I write about just being in communion with others, whether that is a Bible study group at your church or whether it's just people in your neighborhood that you gather with or you just talk to, just being intentional about things that slow you down and help your soul really heal. I think a lot of us are hurting and we're going so fast. We don't have time to heal. We don't have time to reflect. So these practices are helpful for that. You know, when you mentioned the flower and just sort of documenting it, there's a goallessness to that. And what I mean by that is, you know, you said it wasn't to post or it wasn't to write about or anything. Like you don't have a bigger picture in mind. There's not some bigger project that you're, oh, I need to document this flower so that I can't use it later on. There's a goallessness to it. And I mean that in the best possible way. But is that, I don't know, it just feels like disconnecting from any other purpose other than being there. It feels like almost a description of the presence you're talking about. Is that a fair representation of it? Yeah, it is. It can be almost uncomfortable for people to think about because we want goals. We want, you know, check off lists. And, you know, I think

This wasn't lost on me at all. I mentioned in the book, You know, my daughter and I walked to the sunroom window and the most beautiful orange and pink and all these colors for the golden hour and the sun was going down and we're looking and I literally was like, oh my gosh, where's my cell phone to take a picture? And she's like, Mom, what if we just watched it? I was like, oh my gosh, the irony. And scientifically, I don't know exactly where we can find this, you could Google it, but they say that when you stop to take the picture, sure, you do have it forever, but you miss about, I think it's 20 or 30% of the actual event itself because, you know, you're getting your camera, you're taking it, whereas the person who isn't doing that, they have a hundred percent of that activity, so to speak. Not that we have to categorize it by goals or activities, but just the presence of being at that sunset and watching it does something to us versus documenting. So even me, I love documenting things, but sometimes I have to just be there and the sweetest little bird jumped on my patio and I didn't have my phone with me. And I thought, oh my gosh, I missed, you know, missed that, but so. But you didn't, yeah, it was actually here for it, right. You know, my, I read an interview with Zuckerberg, the Facebook guy, I'm blanking on his first name, but anyway, he made this comment. He was talking about virtual reality and developing the development of, you know, sort of the metaverse and all these kinds of things. And he said, you know, we were not created to view the world through small glowing rectangles. And it was really interesting because of course, he's pushing beyond the slow glowing rectangles to a different sort of mediated presence in the world. And, but when I read it, I thought to myself, man, how much of my life am I living through this stupid glowing rectangle? And so it drives my girls a little nuts. I don't tape their games anymore when they play, they play girls lacrosse. And so I don't tape their games anymore because I'm just like, I'd really just like to watch them. So I don't, I don't film anymore. I used to be on the sidelines, you know, like the, you know, watching the whole game on the screen. I do still tape my daughter's gymnastics routines because she likes to see those, but that's, that's something that I, I'm like, no, I, if I have any other option, I'm just not going to do this. Yeah. It's been kind of freeing. Yeah, it is freeing. And, you know, we all have to decide what busy means. Like someone could say, oh gosh, you're so busy going to these lacrosse games. Well, no, if you're sitting there in your lawn chair, out in nature, watching your daughter have the time of her life, like that's slow living right there, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And it's for some reason, I mean, and I'm sure people have different experiences with filming it, but for me, it did feel like I was working. Like at the end of the day game, I didn't really feel like I'd watched it. I was too busy trying to catch the highlights. Yes. So it's just very strange, but yeah, I definitely, I can resonate with you and the sunset. You know, there's something in us that really wants to capture that nowadays. And um, I, yeah, I guess I've started asking myself, capture it for what? For what? Right. Like an Instagram post. Like I, I don't know. I think the world can do without a beautiful sunset Instagram post. Like the sunset's available every day. Right. It's available every day. Yeah. Or you'll find a picture from six years ago and it's gorgeous. And it's like, well, okay, maybe I just needed that one, you know, I just need one. My collection of pictures of sunset. Yeah. Well, let me ask you, uh, you know, kind of, You have this last, it's this last section of your book. It's part three. You are free to live slow and you've mentioned agency and, you know, sort of responsibility and being enabled to move more slowly. But your chapter on burnout behind church doors, I think is really interesting and important, especially for somebody coming from a theological perspective. I often look at the church and say, we should just be living differently. But a lot of times we've structured ourselves so that we're contributing to the burnout of folks in the church in a lot of ways. And so I'm wondering if you can kind of riff on that chapter, give us a little bit of a sense of what you're writing about there. And then maybe we have a little, you know, I'll ask a couple of questions about what might, what we might do to help our pastors and those who are serving us in the church not get so burnt out. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I didn't know if I should write this chapter. I thought, goodness, it could be controversial, but it was part of my life for so long where a lot of my burnout came from church activities and mostly volunteering. I don't even think anything was paid over the last 30 years of my life. And so it was my doctor that had to say, Jodi, like your stress is so high, you have to stop volunteering. You have to stop saying yes. And then she paused and she said, especially in church. And I thought, oh, wow. She just came right out and said it. And so for me, when I, when I see people who, and this goes both ways. It can be pastors and staff. I think we have such high expectations of them. Well, they're paid, they should work. And that, I mean, it's just too much. It's just too much. And then you've also got, you know, people who are volunteering and they think, well, I won't be asked again or I won't be liked. You know, there's just, just this feeling of, you know, you're doing it for the kingdom, things like that. And so I've been in situations where I've just wanted to help and I've been in other situations where I've been pushed to do things that were not what I felt comfortable. It should have gone straight in that boundaries, no box. I would be maybe a little bitter. I'd be exhausted. And so I think I talk about reading the room in the house of God. Like, how do I read the room? Can we look around and say, that man just, he's here all the time. He's exhausted. And we might know that his family at home is missing him. That doesn't feel okay to me anymore. You know? So it's not so much even about slowing down at that point as it's giving his life back to him. Yeah. But he might be so used to this, he doesn't know he can say, I need to take a little bit of time off. You know, we hear about maybe deacons or elders rotating. There's a reason that that is implemented. So how do you, how do we start having those kind of conversations in churches? You know, there's a sense in which, again, and I, I feel like maybe we've bought into a philosophy of efficiency. Let's put more systems in place so that these things get easier. Let's take some of the administrative burden off of X, Y, Z person or something like that. Let's use more volunteers. You know, none of those things, in my experience, at least, comes with a net gain. In other words, managing volunteers requires someone to manage those volunteers. And oftentimes volunteers are not perfect volunteers. They're sort of, you know, they're not always going to be there when you need them. Right. And so there's always this excess, but we also just don't have a place to talk about this in churches. Maybe your experience has been different, but in mine, it's, it's more like, no, the ministry has to get done. And so this is what we have to do. It's a given. And it, and we're, we're neglecting a lot of these other things that you're talking about. So how do we have that conversation? Yeah, I, it doesn't go over well with, with some people because they're very administrative, kind of like, nope, this is how we've always done it. But it's not working. So the people who are open to hearing about it, I'm finding they're going more towards community and not towards efficiency. You really need to build real friendships with people, real everyday life for, I think, the ministry to flourish. Because when people leave churches, it's usually not over, not always over certain theology or a mishap in the church. A lot of times they didn't feel seen. They didn't feel appreciated. And these might be some of the people who are there all the time working. But if it's always in the church building, but then you're never going to a barbecue at someone's house, you know, that becomes evident over time. And so I think people don't want to feel used. They're happy to, to use their talents. But I think when we start intersecting, some of the things I talk about lingering with people over a meal, you know, getting back to potlucks. It's like, I think some of these other things start working out a little bit better. I just think it's become like a machine over time and people can't do that.

won't do it. They won't do it long-term. Yeah, it's too tiring. It's just too much. It's too much, but if you're invited to a birthday party once in a while or a cookout or, you know, something different than church with these people, there's going to be a higher, not just retention rate. I don't even like that word, but participation in the kingdom because what I've been seeing now is that the church is actually outside of the church. We are the church. When I, when I was, when I had a larger team, it's not a, I have a fairly, I run a very, a fairly small organization now, but when I had a larger team and we had a lot of tasks to accomplish, one of the things that I discovered as the leader of the team was that people were trying to solve problems for me. And so I'd have people who were working, you know, 40, 50, 60 hours a week when I would have never wanted that for them, but they're trying to get all these different tasks done. They're just not telling me how much time it's taking. And so eventually one of my staff came to me and said, Hey, look, I'm working way too hard. This is ridiculous. I don't even understand what you expect. And I'm like, well, I wasn't expecting that. And so we, we talked about, okay, let's take this off the plate. Let's move this out because this needs to be a reasonable life for you. And if these projects don't get done, they don't get done or it's up to me to go and ask for more resources to get them done. Right. The organization on some level has to prioritize what it wants to do and what it doesn't want to do. It's not up to the employees to get all of what the organization might want done done. Do you find that dynamic as you looked at this issue in the church, do you find that that dynamic is harder for pastors, um, that maybe they're, they're not really thinking through all of the capacity issues, right. That their congregants are dealing with. And they're setting forward these, these big visions and these big initiatives and all that kind of good stuff and setting up all of these different things without really knowing what their congregants have available to get to that. Yeah, it should, in my opinion, it should be part of, of the questions of, okay, we'd like to, to do this Wednesday night supper club just because a woman is, and her husband, you know, are available. That doesn't mean there's a whole lot of unseen things. Who's going to watch their children? Who's going to go to Costco and get the food? Like what looks like an hour and a half of her time is actually about eight or 10 hours when it's all said and done. You know, and, and she might still have to get up and go to work the next morning, right? So, um, I think being in communication with that whole word capacity, what's your capacity? Like how do you, and also asking people, you know, I sense you want to help so much. What are your, your strengths? Like what would make you just so happy to serve here? Because I wasn't always asked that. Um, you know, I can remember, I can remember a time someone telling me, well, because you have a child, you really need to participate and rotate and all these things. Found myself with 22 three-year-olds one Sunday morning with one other adult. And it's like, wait a minute, this is, I, I wouldn't have ever signed up for this. It was not a good, good fit. Yeah, I will. Yeah, I will say that is one I've never bought. You have kids, so you should work in children's ministry. I'm like, no, no, no. No, no, I barely survive my core. Like this is not, this is not something you want to throw me into. Yeah. So there's, I'm finding there is a lot of, of guilting that, um, I think we just need to reevaluate things, but we need to see the person. It goes back to just that presence being face-to-face when we will stop and just look at someone and, and say, talk to me. What, you know, what are your hopes and dreams and what are things you can't do? You know, and focus on their strengths. Don't focus on their weaknesses and say, let's get you better in this area. That just forget that, you know? Yeah. Well, Jody, this has been a great conversation. I'm, I'm kind of, I'm trying to trying out something for the end of the podcast and you're going to be my, the first guest I'm asking about this, but I kind of like to close with just a question about what you think the church needs to be attending to going forward so that we can be and make disciples for Jesus Christ. Yeah. Oh, wow. How long do we have? No, I'm just kidding. Short question for the end. Yes. Yeah. I'll go back to that phrase, reading the room. I, I think we need to look at people and really see them. You know, Jesus saw people. He, they weren't numbers to him. Um, they were real people. And so I think if we want to be like Jesus, you know, we're going to have to, um, be with the people. We're going to have to see what makes them tick. Um, just like the pastors too. It's sad if someone overworks and over volunteers, but it's sad if a pastor's never offered a sabbatical too. So just, um, giving people a chance to slow down so that they can do this thing long-term. Um, so just really, um, the presence of, yeah, each other, just, just really hearing each other. What do you need? You know, Jesus asked that. What do you need? Yeah. That's good. Yeah. There needs to be a real curiosity and concern. We need to cultivate that for others in the church so we can really recognize what it is that they need and try to help give it to them. Great answer. So see, that was easy. Yeah. Well, Jody, thanks so much for being on. This has been a great conversation and I really did love your book. So I would recommend everybody go out and get Live Slowly, A Gentle Invitation to Exhale in my life. And I've talked about it on the podcast before. Um, definitely slowing down was a necessity for me at certain points in my life. And so this is a great exhortation to live slower and it gives some great practical advice on how to do that. So I just encourage you to go out and get it. You can get it at IVP. There'll be a discount code in the show notes as well as some links to some of the other things Jody does, including her podcast, which will be coming off sabbatical hopefully soon. And uh, and Jody, yeah, just a pleasure to have you here and thanks for being on the show. Thank you, James. I have just thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. Yep. Me too. All right, everyone. Well, we'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Now and then it shows, he would say, that Pat Booney, he's so religious. I shook hands with that boy the other day. My whole right side sobered up. And, and I would repeat that in my act. And I said, you know, it did. And then I'll go ahead and sing my song. Pat Boone shares some of his incredible life story on The Walk, a podcast for worshipers. Join us weekly to hear conversations and devotionals from the artists of the church. The Walk can be found on lifeaudio.com, worshipleader.com, or your favorite podcast platform.