A Conversation with a Hope Dealer (Amy Williams): Thinking about How We See Ourselves and Others

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everybody, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I am joined today by Amy L. Williams. And Amy is the author of Worth the Seeing. It's a book published by IVP, and we're going to be talking a little bit about that book. But Amy is also known as the Hope Dealer to the Dope Dealer. She ministers to teens involved in gangs across the Chicagoland area. She's a certified gang intervention specialist, and she also serves as a project coordinator for New Life Centers, bringing in restorative justice programming to youth at juvenile prisons. She's also been a youth pastor, a reentry coordinator, and a youth mentor and advocate, and so a lot of work with youth. And I'm excited to be talking with you. I really enjoyed the book, Amy, so welcome to the podcast. Oh, thank you so much. I'm excited to be here with you today. Yeah, absolutely. Why don't you give people, I think one of the things I really enjoyed about the book was just your story of how you got into youth work, how you got into even Chicago, because you weren't originally from Chicago. Exactly. Born and raised in Maine. You don't hear that often. You don't. And then moved to North Carolina and then have been in Chicago the last 20-something years, but have been doing youth ministry for 30 years. So that started in North Carolina through Urban Young Life. My ex-husband and I did ministry with kids in the city of Durham, if you can say that, of Durham, North Carolina, worked with the marginalized community, and then eventually found myself in Chicago working with kids and gangs in the prison system, mostly motivated by my baby brother, who he himself was gang involved and in the justice system at a time when there was nothing that I could do. Now I'm at the age where I can do something. I have the resources and I'm going to impact those lives as much as I can. That's awesome. Well, talk a little bit about, you know, you wrote this book, Worth Seeing, and in the first chapter, I believe it was, you talk a little bit about the Hagar-Ismael narrative where, you know, it's God is the God who sees. How is that sort of an anchor text for what you're talking about in the book? How is that, how does that inform your understanding of being worth seeing? Yeah, so the book is titled Worth Seeing, Viewing Others Through God's Eyes, right? And so the story of Hagar is about the God that sees. Often we think that God is involved in what we're doing. Often God may not particularly be so hands-on, and I think the story of Hagar lets you know God is intimately, deeply connected, and he sees you regardless of your situation, what you're going through, where you are, what you've done, right? He really cares about you individually. And this book is about being able to see others in that vein, not only just yourself, but really taking the time to humanize others that are on the margins that people tend to ignore and say there is a God that sees you, but we also need to understand there's a God that sees them as well. Yeah. So when you think about being worth seeing, like you talk about in the book, this experience of, I believe it was you ended up going to a Hispanic church, if I'm recalling that correctly. Can you talk just a little bit about that? give people a sense of how that sort of informed your understanding of what you're talking about in the book. Well, it's very interesting. So I'm biracial. I'm half black and half Irish, but everybody thinks I'm Puerto Rican. And so moved to Chicago, so I call myself sort of Rican. I'm not Puerto Rican. I'm sort of Rican. And so moved into a predominantly Puerto Rican community and attended a church there. I became a youth pastor at this church and was just on fire for this particular population of young people. But I was so on fire that I was told by the pastor that I needed to kind of calm myself down, tone it down a little bit so that others would be able to fully accept me. That makes absolutely no sense to me. And especially fighting my whole entire life to be seen and accepted as someone who was biracial in a time where there weren't a lot of biracial children. Going to this church telling me I needed to be less of who I was made me not feel seen, made me wonder if there is a God that sees me because if the pastor doesn't fully see me, if a congregation doesn't fully see me, how is there a God that can fully see me? And so that church got a lesser version of me. And that was very painful. Yeah, it's interesting because one of the things you mentioned in there in the book is talking about hope. And I know I want you to talk a little bit about your brand, right? The Hope Dealer. But one of the things you noted was one of the ways to give these kids hope is to draw them into a new environment with new people and new opportunities. I think what struck me about your narration of your experience in that Latino church is that it's not every new people environment and opportunity that really helps these kids. It has to be a particular sort of new people, new environment, new opportunity, yes? Absolutely. I mean, it has to be a group of people that are willing to see these kids beyond what they're presenting to us, right? And being able to take the time and listen to the stories. I always say if you heard the stories of my young people, you would understand why they joined a gang and how they ended up in prison. But a lot of times we just make these assumptions without really listening to the stories. And so knowing the stories, knowing who they are, knowing where they're going helps us to then better pick which opportunities and new spaces to invite our young people into and knowing who to connect them with, right? So you can't connect every young person with particular opportunities that may just see them as troublemakers, but absolutely see them as an asset to our communities. And so when we're talking about understanding the stories of these young people, I'm guessing it's A, you have to have the right context to really understand that story. You're kind of immersed in this. As someone who is not immersed in this, how would you suggest somebody like me going about that? Like, what does that look like for, you know, just your everyday Christian to begin getting immersed into some of these folks' stories? Sure. The first one I would say is buy my book. There are nothing but stories, right, of these young people to give you a better understanding and develop some compassion in that. My book is about humanizing the story. There are tons of books out there by Father Greg Boyle. He has books with nothing but stories. There are documentaries, right, that you can watch that you can participate in. Talk to your youth pastor. They're connected and involved with, hopefully, young people on the margins or just young people, period, right? In my book, I talk about what young people are at risk. All young people are at risk, right? But there's a higher subset of those youth that are at higher risk. But every young person is at risk. Every young person has a story. And so get to know through the youth pastor. And, you know, simply just talk to a kid. If you see a kid walking down the street, say hi. Spark up a conversation with some youth that are in your church or in your community. There are many ways to connect and hear the stories of young people on the margins. I have movies I can recommend to watch, right? Like Freedom Writers, Dangerous Minds. Like Coach Carter. There are tons of movies that will show you as well, besides the documentaries, that will give you an inside look into the life of marginalized youth. Yeah, you talked a little. You had a. You mentioned Freedom Writers in the book. And I love that movie. I thought it was a great reference. Love that movie. Like sometimes when I'm watching some of the movies, I'm like, is this too dramatized? You know, is this giving me a fake picture of what's going on here? And sometimes it does. I think you're right to be cautious about that, right? A lot of it is. But but a lot of it isn't. It's very much true to the stories of trauma that our young people experience, what communities and neighborhoods may look like, experiences they may have being involved in gangs. But a lot of it is hyped up, definitely. But it can still give you a little bit of insight, you know, if you're if you just, you know, pray about it before you watch it.

Now, my, so... Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide, or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878, or call 888-958-6579. My touchpoint with this, obviously, I've mentioned before our interview, you know, my wife and I have lived up in Chicago for a while, but I think my real primary touchpoint with this, my wife always kids me, I'm not kid-friendly. I don't, I don't, I don't like white children. Once they get up to be teenagers, I'm far better at it, you know, once they can kind of have an intelligible conversation, I'm much better. But yeah, little kids, they, they almost like freak me out. But anyway. They're not for everybody. Yeah, they are not for everybody. God bless you for being a youth minister. Right. You know, when I say that about people that work with babies, I'm like, God bless you for working with babies or working with girls or middle school kids. Right, right, right. Give me high school kids and young adults. That's my lane. Yeah, I did junior high ministry for a little while, and I think, yeah, it was, it was probably a mistake for everyone involved. But, but here's what I would say. I, I found it really challenging. I'd just be interested to hear you comment on this, but I found it really challenging to try to work with the kids when their parents were against us working with the kids. So in other words, you know, it's like, you know, in junior high, and, and I was completely going to say, this is why I was saying it's a mistake. So anybody listening, like, don't, don't, don't think that I know what I'm doing. I was just a warm body that they threw at this thing. But like the kids would not listen in the classroom, especially the boys. They, they'd wrestle each other and, you know, I could say, hey, get off, you know, stop doing that or whatever. But my impression was, you know, you can't just manhandle these kids. It's probably not the smartest idea. And so, like, if they're not listening, what's my option here, right? And so then the parents would come back and they'd be frustrated that their kids were all hot and sweaty or, you know, had a rug burn or something like that. And I'm like, I don't know what you want me to do when I tell them not to do it. They continue to do it. You don't want me, you know, physically removing them. And so how do we work together on this? You know, there wasn't an interest really in working together. It was more like they wanted youth ministry or junior high ministry to be babysitting my kid while I'm in church. Right, right. So I've also had some of those experiences in foster care. My wife and I have done foster care an awful lot. Safe Families, if you're familiar with Safe Families. Yes, yes. So we've done that as well. And those come with their own different set of complications. They're usually a little more temporary, but you also still have pretty heavy influence, at least in our experience, from parents. Yeah. And so how do you, having done this for a long time, how do you navigate some of those things where you're trying to push them one way, understand their lives, help them reorient, you know, to the world a bit, when other voices who are pretty influential in their lives are pushing them in a different direction? You know, and I think that is very typical of the work that I do. And we try very hard to partner with the parents. It is very important for us to understand where they're coming from, what they want for their child, what they don't want for their child. And those relationships are not always successful. I mean, at some point, you just have to just say, this isn't going to work and bless that child for being put in the middle of it. So when a child is put in the middle of it and we're saying, come on, let's go to school. And the parents are like, I don't care if you go to school. I don't care what you do, or you need to get a job instead of going to school. Oh, I just hate having a child be put in that kind of situation. And so what we have to do is we have to do what is best and what's safest for the child. You have to still walk life with them, but let that child ultimately make it their own decisions on what they're going to do and how they're going to follow through, right? I always say, you know, I work mostly with older kids and we tell them, you're the hero of your own life. You're the hero of this story. Your parents are telling you not to go to school. What do you want for your life? And then how can we come alongside and support you with the decision that you make? Most of the time, our relationships with the parents are successful because they don't want their kid going back to prison. They don't want their child in gangs. And so a lot of times our relationships are successful, but for those that aren't, we don't abandon the kid. You know, we try as much as we can to be a support based on the decisions that they want to make. It's a very complex and difficult situation. Yeah, it's good to know it wasn't just me, so I appreciate that. No, not at all. I mean, I was a youth pastor for years and you know, I would do monthly meetings with parents, you know, so I could say, this is what we're going to go over this month. This is what I need you to do with your children while we're learning these things. And very few parents would show up to those meetings. So they were looking for babysitting too. And I wasn't going to be that babysitter. So very challenging. A lot of ministries deal with that. And I'm guessing, I mean, obviously the parents have their own stories too. Sure. You know. They have their own trauma and they have their own all of that. You know, just infinite regression kind of idea. It's like, you know, it's all just sort of passed down almost in a hereditary fashion. And so I suppose that's where maybe, I suppose that, that's where your faith, the Christian focus side of things comes in. I think you, if I think I recall you in the book suggesting that you ask where our hope is really, where you really put your hope in. Where you really put your hope in. And our only hope is in Jesus, is it's, we can't put our hope in man because we're very fickle humans. You know, one minute we're happy, the next minute we're mad. The next minute we're excited. And then the next minute we're depressed. And I mean, just hope, hope is about stability, right? And in knowing. And so our, our only hope is, is scripture and Psalm. You know, our only hope can be found in, in you, in the Lord. You know, one of the, one of the aspects that I really liked about the book was the perception pyramid. I've done a fair amount of work on like collective remembering and attention and those kinds of things. And so the perception pyramid really resonated with me. And I saw it, maybe I saw it going both ways. So I think you, you deal with it in the book more like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but almost more like the way we behave is going to influence the way people perceive us to some degree. But also I think that our own baggage influences the way we see other people. Absolutely. We have a very limited lens, right? And we see and perceive things through our experiences. And that's like the quote where we don't see people as they are. We see them as we are. We see them through our lens, which is not necessarily the full truth. Right. It's really interesting. I go back to this story an awful lot, but I think it's just so helpful. At least it clarified a lot for me. My wife and I were taking a walk. We were up visiting Chicago. This was after we moved downstate. We were out visiting Chicago. It was about like 1030, 11 o'clock. And we decided to take a walk. And she just made the comment. She's like, this isn't something I normally do when I travel by myself. I don't walk around the city by myself. Right. And I had never even given it a second thought. Like, it didn't, you know what I mean? I wouldn't, like, I would have gone out by myself at 1030 at night or 11 or whatever if I felt like taking a walk and we'd go out. But it just reminded me, I'm like, oh, there's a, there's a different sort of focus and attention that she has to give to, let's say, her safety or her surroundings than I normally have to. Right. And it's not like I'm

You know what I mean? Yeah. And so, what I'm wondering is if you've seen or found that pictures that we often associate with gangs and troubled youth and people who have been in prison and those kind of things tend to narrow our perception even more. Sure. That people are super guarded about it because they're just not, all they're concerned with is their vulnerability. And their safety, yeah. And so that then sort of creates this little tunnel vision and this is how they're going to see people. Absolutely. And I think, you know, you make a very good point. What is the narrative that's out there? What is the narrative that people are hearing and listening to? And when you constantly hear and see the same narrative, especially like in Chicago, right? All we see are black and brown bodies on TV being shot, being killed, doing the shooting, doing the killing. What is the narrative that you're taking in? And that's why it takes extra work to be able to see through the lens of God, right? To be able to see people through the lens of God when all we're being thrown at is this one narrative. So yeah, you're absolutely correct. It does narrow the truth, our perception. Yeah, and I'm wondering how, like when you're working with these youth, do you try to help them understand that from the other people's side? Like develop an empathy for the people who aren't interacting with them? Not necessarily. Okay, I just wondered, yeah. I'm just trying to help them get through and survive and accept themselves, right? Like we may talk about this is how someone perceives you, but that's not my main focus. My main focus is how do you perceive yourself, right? How are you dealing with trauma? What are you learning about who you are and what's going on? Because they already know how the world looks at them. They know that, they feel that. I have a story in the book where I was talking about walking down the street and I spoke to a young African-American male and he was so taken aback because nobody ever spoke to him. Nobody ever speaks to him. So they know how society views them and sees them. My goal is how do you see yourself and letting them know how God sees them as well. Do you find that that approach sort of helps them navigate society more effectively? I think so. I think so. If you can be confident in yourself, it's kind of like the way that I was raised being biracial in the 70s. You know, my mom told me and I shared that story. My mom told me, you have the best of both worlds. If someone has a problem with you, that's their problem. Learning that at an early age helped me to navigate racism, helped me to navigate when people would see me differently or call me different names or challenge me on my identity. But because I had that foundation of knowing who I was, that helps a lot. So I think when these young people get an idea of who they are, who they are in Christ, it makes all the difference in how they put themselves out there. Yeah, it's interesting how often it comes back to that. I've had so many conversations with people on the podcast and we'll talk about it. There's a gentleman who wrote a book called Failure of Nerve. It's a leadership book by a guy named Friedman. It's really fantastic. If you haven't read it, I'd recommend it. He talks about it in terms of being a self-differentiated leader. And the way he defines that is you have to understand where you end and other people begin. And so your goal is to be a non-anxious presence. You can't take on everybody else's emotional baggage and expect to do well, be sort of the antidote to anxiety within your context. And so it strikes me that you're giving these kids something very similar to that. This is who you are. This is the way you should perceive yourself. This is the way you understand your actions. This is how you sort of own your own space. And when other people are trying to pierce that with their own fears or anxiety or frustrations or stereotypes or whatever, you don't have to worry about that. Right. That's a them problem. All you're doing is living your life. You're being who you are. And you can prove them wrong over the long term if they're willing to listen. Right. Kind of idea. And if you care. Right. Right. If you care. Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you know, telling these young people that, you know, you're the hero of your own life. This is your story. I'm just a supporting actor. You're the lead role. Right. And so that is key in giving them that type of autonomy, giving them that type of empowerment to just be like, yes, this is my life. I am the hero. What people think and say, I get to choose how that affects me in the long haul. Unfortunately, they're teenagers. They don't think like that. They react. They respond. They're emotional. You know, so trying to get them to that point, you know, takes time. It takes time. You have to be patient. Guys, let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text guide to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text guide to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. I have three teenagers right now. Oh, Marcy, God bless you. Yeah, yeah. My son just went to college and then I have twin year old twin girls, 15 year old twin girls. Wow. Yeah. And then we have a three year old. We're adopting a three year old. But the teenagers have been have been interesting, especially in the social media age and, you know, all that kind of stuff going on. It is very, very hard to get them to open up and understand things and like work with them on different stuff. I mean, my kids and me get along well, but there's still that wall, right, where they're not sure how to process all these things and they don't really know what's coming. Right. And I think that's the key to having a mentor in their life, right? The somebody that they can fall back on when they can't talk to their parents and having that mentor have a relationship with the parents. You know, I think it's all full circle. They say it takes a village to raise a kid. And I say it takes a kingdom to raise these kids, this generation. So as many positive role models as we can get in a kid's life, then the healthier it is for them. So how do you see, I mean, you talk about, you know, it takes a kingdom to raise these kids. And I tend to agree. I mean, I think the the churches we've gone to and the people that we've interacted with have built into my children's life. And I've so appreciated that because I think they do need a voice other than mine. My voice is going to get old. At some point, it's like I'm getting the eye rolls or whatever. And it's like, oh, jeez, dad again. And then someone else, it's actually really helpful. So how do you see in your ministry, how do you see churches really stepping up to be mentors to these kids? How do you see them welcoming them into the church community? Maybe what could be done better? I mean, and that's very difficult, honestly. I mean, if I can be really honest. Yeah. The church really doesn't. I'm trying to, I'm trying to be nice. OK. The church really. OK, the church really doesn't like my kind of kids. Yeah. They don't really accept my kind of youth. Yeah. And I think that is a big, big problem. We have young people that are incarcerated and they're coming home and they want change. Yeah. They don't want to continue living the lives that they lived that have ended them up separated from their families in a dark, dark place called prison. The churches need to be open and welcoming to that. Churches need training. Churches need to seek God about what he's calling them to do concerning families that have someone that is incarcerated. And I think it starts there. Start with your own church and see who in your church. I mean, if if one in three black men are going to be involved in the system, one in five Latinos, Hispanic men are involved in the prison system. If the fastest growing population are women and if the largest population are white women who are incarcerated. They're coming home. They're coming home.

That a someone in your church is dealing with incarceration. And so finding that person, whether it's their child, their brother, an uncle, a friend, it's not as far removed from the church as people would think. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But we're not taking the time to know our neighbors, even in the church context. Yeah, I was gonna say that it strikes me that it's easy to be anonymous in most of the churches I've been to. Yes, I see you on Sunday, but outside of that. Right. And we're good friends on Sundays. Right, but otherwise. But otherwise, I don't know what's going on in your life, right? Right. Yeah, if you could not call me to help you move, that'd be fantastic. Right. Right, exactly, exactly. Don't even want to pick up chairs in church, let alone help a neighbor move, right? Right. So that anonymity, I mean, the lack of community within the church walls, the sort of, we could call it a lack of neighborliness, I suppose. And, you know, it's more of a familiarity than a relationship. Right, right. I recognize that you sit in that seat most Sundays, and that's great for you. Right. Kind of idea. No, it's true. Right. And since you don't keep me from sitting in my seat. Right, exactly. Don't start with that. Right. Sit in my seat. And that's not very welcoming. It's not. And it wouldn't be welcoming to my kind of youth or families. Yeah. I think it's interesting to think through, because, I mean, my initial reaction when you were talking through that was, I wanted to ask, do you find that churches think that these youth are somehow dangerous? That they're... Oh, yeah. They're risking the other kids that they're trying to minister to in bringing them in. But then maybe that's a deeper symptom of, look, we just don't care about people at all. You know, and the kids that we like to have around are the ones that don't really cause us that much trouble. I think, so I think it's a combination of things, right? I think it's a combination of what you're saying. I think churches do care. I think they just don't know how to. Okay. I think that if one of my young people walked in the church with his family, they might not know how to receive them. It doesn't mean that they don't care. It just means we are not used to this. What do we do? How do we do this? Yeah. You do have churches that don't care and just want what's simple, too. And just don't come in and ruffle my ministry and shake things up and don't, you know, like, we have our way of doing things. We have our rules. Don't come in here cursing with your pants sagging and, you know, like smelling like weed. You know, whereas for me, I welcome that. I'm like, yes, if you smell like weed and want to come to church, come to church, right? I'd rather you be here than out there. And so, yeah, I think there needs to be a lot of training and people just don't know what to do. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I can remember times when, like, I'd meet somebody from high school or something like that. I remember one interaction specifically. I ran into somebody that I knew in high school and we ended the conversation and I just said, hey, this has been really awkward, man. I love it. That's real. That's real. It was horribly awkward. We didn't be like, you know, you like lock eyes with somebody. You're like, oh, man, this is gonna happen now. But we have nothing to say to each other. Like, oh, that was awkward. But you press through the awkwardness. Right, right. And I think, so I can definitely see what you're saying. So when you're saying training on how to welcome these folks, that's really what you're saying. Like, how do we welcome them? How do we get past some of our own, I don't know. Stuff. Yeah, whatever we call stuff, right? Yeah. Like, I don't think anybody who smells like weed should be in church. And it's like, well, yeah, if you've been coming to church for 50 years and you're still coming smelling like weed, maybe we should have a conversation about that. Right, exactly. If this is your first time here. Right. And you come in smelling like weed, we should just be happy you made it through the door. Exactly. And so we need to recalibrate some of that. And that's the sort of training you're talking about within the church. Is that a fair? Right. And being able to see people the way God sees them. It's as simple as that. Stop making the judgment. Stop making the assumptions. Get to know the stories. Find out why he smells like weed. I mean, well, we know why he smells like weed, but there's a deeper story to that. Right, right. There's a deeper story. And so we're just so quick to want things to fit into our bubble. And I just don't think God is pleased with that. You know? Yeah. Sometimes I don't smoke weed, but sometimes I just want to spray weed all over me and walk into a church just to get a reaction. I really, really do. It's an experiment. It is an experiment. Exactly. To see what happens. Well, one of the things that struck me in your books, I really enjoyed, like, you move from seeing yourself to seeing others, right? Exactly. You kind of move back and forth. And just as we're having the conversation here, it kind of strikes me that when we don't see ourselves the way God sees us, we can't see others the way God sees them. And so even if we think about, you know, I can remember times when I would have been the equivalent of walking into a church smelling like weed. I didn't smell like weed. I still looked the part a little better. Sure, sure. But, you know, just because there were no visible signs that I was doing, you know, things that were prone to mess up my life, didn't mean I wasn't doing things that were prone to mess up my life. Right. But it was much easier for me to walk in and just say, hey, everybody, I'm here. Exactly. Isn't this great? And people would generally leave me alone and wouldn't even question whether I was okay or not. Right, right. You know, and so I think channeling that sort of story, like remembering how messed up I was, where I've come from, where God has brought me from, could actually be helpful. Is that...? Absolutely. So how do we get to that point of sort of self-exploration within the church where it's not just a... You know what I mean? It's not just, yeah, I'm saved. And so now everybody should be saved and you should act like this. And if you don't, I have no time for you. And you know, that is such an individual choice to say, I want to go deeper and heal, or I want to continue to pretend and fake it. I think if you fully want to walk this life, if you really want to be healed, if you want the abundance of it and the freedom and the peace, you have to look inward. You have to do the work. You have to seek God and ask him, what do you see? What am I called to do? Why was I created? I mean, all of these, the same things we want our kids to figure out. If we don't have that figured out, why are we asking our young people to have that figured out? And so the time of, you know, because eventually the pretending, you're going to break. It's exhausting pretending. It's exhausting being someone that you're not. I know. I've done it. I've been there. It is exhausting and eventually you break and the break usually isn't pretty. So the self-exploration is an individual choice and in order to be fully free and at peace with who you are in God, you've got to do it. You've got to go through that. Yeah. You mentioned in the book, it's almost like you're giving people advice on how to go about engaging youth and I think just others in general, honestly. Yeah, exactly, yeah. One of the things you say is, you know, change the way you view an unbelieving teen. Yes. And so, you know, I think intuitively I understand that. I think I'm wondering if you can give a few of them nuts and bolts on how that might work. You know, again, because there is a lot of vulnerability that's going to be required to maybe not change the way you just understand them, look at them, like rationally. But then to move beyond that rational understanding of, oh yeah, I know they've had a hard life, to actually engaging with someone who has lived that life and doing so in an appropriate way. Well, I think one of the main things is that, and this is one of my favorite chapters in the book, where you have to come to understand that people are not projects to be fixed. Yeah. Period. So the way that you look at a person, not just a young person, but the way that you look at a young person, I mean a person, is not as a project that you have to figure out and that you have to fix. The way that we should look at a teen is that they do have their own stories. They do have the ability to make good choices. They are in control of their lives and their situations and who they are and what they believe. We need to empower them. We need to walk with them as they figure this out, but not like they're a project that I need to be fixed. This

So giving them the power to explore that instead of telling them, leading them into what we think. Because again, our lens is very limited. Our experiences, we see others through our experiences. So we have to be really careful how we view people from the, from the jump. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. That's from the beginning. Yeah, it's really interesting. Again, I kind of go back to the experience with my kids. I, you know, I have started thinking about it in terms of, I have to let them make the mistakes that they are going to make. Sure, sure. And that's hard. That's hard to let them when you can stop them. Right. And I mean, I could stop them and, you know, I'm always trying to figure out, okay, how do I let them trip without, you know, having to go get stitches or, you know, you know what I mean? Right, exactly. Exactly. But there has to be that, they have to become who they are. They can't be me. And I think that's really challenging with kids. I think it's challenging with anybody, I suppose, because the tendency is just to say, well, this works for me. It's going to work for you. Exactly. Which it's not. But I think that hasn't really played out for me very well. Right. I was going to say, how did that work out for you? It doesn't. Right. It doesn't ever work. Never, never. I don't know whether you've read any of the work on, and it kind of ended badly, but the La Arge communities. Are you familiar with the La Arge communities? No. A lot of theologians, probably. It's been within the last decade, but La Arge used to be run by a gentleman named Jean Vanier. And like I said, ended kind of problematically. There were some allegations that people were taken advantage of, but he was living and creating communities for people with various sorts of disabilities. Okay. And different Christian theologians would go and they would live in these communities. And most of them after they, when they went, they said, my perception was that I was going to be helping out a lot. When they left, their perception was, I can't believe how much I've grown being around these really special people. Right, right. And it just strikes me that the work that you're doing could have a very similar story to it. Like people are going in, they go in and they think, wow, these people need a lot of help. But they almost have to walk out. Right. But then they almost have to walk out going, oh my gosh, I've learned. Like they added to my life as much, if not more, than I added to theirs. Exactly. And you know, we're a community. We're a community, so we have to do this together. So I go in, I have a relationship, a very strong relationship with a gang leader. And he knows that I'm a Christian and he knows that one day, you know, I think he's going to be a pastor. And, but we're in, yeah, we're in this thing together. So he teaches me, I teach him. It's not about me having this savior complex of needing to figure out his life and, and you need to do this or, you know, turn or burn or all those different kind of things that he has experienced with other Christians. Um, but knowing that we're, we're walking in this together and I'm like, I have learned so much about what I'm, it has helped me do what I do better with other young people, but I was open to that. I wasn't going in with this. I'm here to save you. Um, you know, he has his own relationship with God. That's none of my business. That's not my relationship. But please teach me. And I learned so much from these young people. It's, I love it. I, I can't do what I do without learning from them. Do you find that you, and I'm, I'm going to assume that your aims don't always overlap, but I mean, I think the perception, I'll just give my perception, right? Yeah. My perception would be that we probably have gangs in part incorrect. Like this is just my stereotype from the movies and stuff like that. You know, we talked about that earlier, right? There's, there's an aspect to the gangs where I think they are actually trying to do something good for the neighborhood. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how it started. Yeah. And so there, there is a sort of an interesting core to it. That's like, we need this community. We need this togetherness. We need this solidarity. Now it takes a really hard turn and bad turn. And I think in a lot of ways, but when you talk about collaborating with a gang leader, I'm wondering, is that kind of how you collaborate that, that core, Hey, we want what's good for the neighborhood kind of idea. Is that where you find synergy with them or, or how does that work? Well, I find a lot of, I find that it's, it's about their young people that are involved in their gang. Okay. Like they don't want their young people to die. That's their family. They've developed a community within themselves. They've developed this closeness where they depend on each other and they, they need each other. Um, so, so it's, it's own community. So when I collaborate with the gang leader, it's for the betterment of the young people that are involved in his particular gang. Right. And for him and his family. And it, for me, it bleeds into the community and the safety of the community. Um, for them, it's about safety of their, of their own community, of their, of their, you know, gang. So there is a pretty strong sort of us versus them kind of stance within the gang still, even, even in relationship with the community or with the church, okay. There's very much a us versus them. Um, and it doesn't, it, in a lot of situations, it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't have to be that way. Um, but I think they also feel it with the community, but not as much as they do with the church. The church really is that sort of against us sort of group that just wants to clean us up and, and put us in positions that we know won't work. Right. Exactly. Either get rid of us or convert us. Yeah. That's what they, that's what the church wants. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And that's very, you can see why it's very hard, um, for young people to then come to the church, which is why we have to go to where they are. Yeah. Which is why I go into the prisons or go on the street corner. Um, they're more than likely not going to come to us, especially this generation. Do you have churches that are good to work with you? I mean, that, that, that you can plug these kids into or is that just not even something that you look to? That's just not existent. I, I, uh, wow. Uh, yeah, I, I have a hard time and, and I know they're out there. I know there are some that are out there. There has to be. Um, but my little circle or, or trying to figure out and, and a lot of times, you know, you have to find a church that is in the neighborhood where they live because they can't cross gang borders. It's not safe for them to go to the North side if they're a gang on the West side and their rivals are around that church. I mean, so there's lots of other things to think about, not just a church that accepts them, but a church that is safe for them. And then you want to keep the church safe too, right? So you don't want uh drive-bys to happen or they'd be like, Oh, such and such is at that church. We're gonna wait for them outside. Like you don't, you know, you have to, you have to keep the church safe too. So there are lots of different things that play into that. I remember when I moved into the gang neighborhood, there were literally six churches within two blocks and I reached out to every single church and they just didn't want anything to do with what I was doing. So that was very um heartbreaking for me because at that point I'm like, Lord, I tried. I tried. Like, what do I do? What if I have a kid that wants to go to church? Where do I take him? Yeah. And um that's safe. That's safe because there were a couple of churches that were like, absolutely bring your young people, but it wasn't safe. Yeah. So we, I had this one church where we did basketball with them and we had to take them out of our community to go to this particular church. So we would have

No, lots of practicalities there, just tons of complexity. Right. To keep everybody safe. Yeah, to keep everybody safe. Exactly. Well, like I said, I appreciate you writing the book. I usually end these sessions or my episodes with just a question, and so I'm really interested to hear what your answer is going to be to it. OK. OK, so what do you think the church needs to be thinking about today in order to be and make disciples more faithfully? That is a really great question. I think the church needs to think about being open to those that know nothing about our church culture. I think the church has its own culture, and a lot of times people from the outside are unaware, don't know how to navigate that, and I think we need to be very careful of the culture that we develop and be more open to those that are coming from outside, that are looking for hope, that are looking for light. We have to be more open and less arrogant. And you kind of mentioned that in the book. You talk about watching your language, you know, not using that church jargon, which would obviously be part of culture and making sure we're not shutting people down before they even get a chance to understand what we're talking about, you know. Exactly. The first thing we ask is, so what about limited atonement? And they're like... I mean, my kids would be like, what? This is not the place for me. They literally would just turn around and walk out. And not just the Christianese, but then also what we call people, right? And so I don't call people felons. They're people with felony records. You know, I don't say a gang member. I say a young person involved in gang culture. So even what we call people, don't call them ex-cons. Don't call them convicts. Don't call... Like these are people, God's people that he loves and cares for deeply. And so what we call people in addition to the language that we use when we invite them in can make all the difference. Yeah. Very cool. That's a great answer. Well... Thank you. You got me on that one. You got me. No, I really did enjoy the book. I love the stories. Thank you. I think, again, having kind of grown up in Chicago, we went to some of a variety of churches when we were up there. And so some of them you could tell. I mean, the people I'd take with me were sometimes uncomfortable. And so, you know, you kind of, but you could tell that other churches just weren't built for the kind of folks you're serving. And so I think your ministry is absolutely crucial and necessary. And I'm just so pleased that God brought you to it. So... Thank you so much. Folks, if you're looking for a great book, a great read, worth seeing, viewing others through God's eyes. I think it's applicable even for those who aren't anywhere near gang culture. Absolutely. This is just about really and truly seeing other people through God's eyes. And we all encounter other people, hopefully. If you're listening to this, I can guarantee you do. So I really highly recommend it. We'll put the link in the show notes as well as any other links that we have to Amy. And just really appreciate you. And thanks so much for what you're doing. Oh, thank you. This was so much fun. It was great. Absolutely. All right, everybody. We'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. You're fearfully and wonderfully made. God looks at your heart, not your jean size. Do you know the verses yet still stress over your body? Oh, I get it. I was raised in church, but I struggled with food, eating disorders, and my body for decades. I'm Heather Creekmore, host of the Compared to You podcast, where we talk about all things body image and comparison from a biblical perspective. We get real about the pressure to focus on appearance in a culture where looks seem to matter most. Whether you're wrestling wrinkles or battling the scale, Compared to Who is the show for you. You'll laugh a little and be encouraged a lot. If you're ready to stop comparing and start living, visit lifeaudio.com to listen and subscribe.