Thinking about God and Evil: A Conversation with Ingrid Faro, PhD

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm excited to be joined by Ingrid Faro. Ingrid and I actually went through the same doctoral program around the same time. We had some overlap there. She is a professor of Old Testament at Northern Seminary in the suburbs of Chicago, Lyle, I believe it is, and the author of a new book, Demystifying Evil, a biblical and personal exploration. And so I'm excited about this conversation, Ingrid. Thanks for being here. I really appreciate you being on the program. It's great to be here, James. Thanks for inviting me. Yeah, so tell me, just as we get started, when were you at Trinity? I know we overlap, but I'm never clear on the time frames. It was sort of a blur for me. Yes, and I actually came first to do an MDiv because I had never taken a class in theology. I had been in the insurance industry for, at that point, 15 years, and I continued in that while I was working on my MDiv to help pay for it. So, you know, closely related industries, you know. Yeah, absolutely. And then, so that was 2001. And then because of life that kept happening, you know, my husband taking his life as I started my second year of my MDiv, just, you know, and that's why, that's the personal approach in the book. That took me seven years to get through what should have been a four-year program, but life just kept exploding and imploding. And so then I was working on my PhD from 2008 to 2013. Okay. Yeah, so I would have been there 2007 to 2012, so I just barely beat you. Yes. Or 2005 to 2012. See, it is a blur. 2005 to 2012. Yeah, I took longer than I was hoping I would. Oh, it is. I think that's the normal mantra of every PhD student, right? Exactly. Well, I didn't realize you and I had that in common either because when I went into my MDiv, I'd done a degree in exercise physiology. So I was on my way to doing more like physical therapy, and I was actually a personal trainer at the time. But I had no understanding of Bible theology when I entered my MDiv. Just no clue about, I usually tell people I'd read half the Gospel of John and some various portions of the New Testament because this guy had challenged me to read the whole Gospel of John over Christmas break. It had the same number of chapters as the days we had on break. I got halfway through him and was just thinking to myself, I have no idea what this thing is saying. Like, this is pointless. And I just quit. So, yeah, I entered seminary pretty ignorant of the whole theological realm. Yeah, I certainly did too. I remember even saying to a group of systematic theology students and professors after they were going on for a while, I'd say, would you just speak English, please? I don't understand what you're saying. I remember the moment I was sitting in the cafeteria, I was sitting by myself, and I did my MDiv at Moody. And so I'm sitting in the cafeteria and these guys are sitting at another table and they're talking about the difference between dispensational and covenant theology and kind of going through some of those things. And I remember two distinct thoughts going through my head. The first one was, I have no idea what they're saying. No clue what they're talking about. Couldn't couldn't understand the conversation at all. And number two, remember just being completely and totally disinterested in what they were talking about. And I think that's really what drove me into Old Testament. Right. I mean, you know, both of us are we did our emphases in Old Testament. I assume you did at Trinity, right? Were you under McGarry? Actually, Eberbach. Dr. Eberbach. Oh, were you? OK. Yeah. So we share that as well. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. So we both did ours under Eberbach. But, yeah, that's why I ended up going into the Old Testament because I just loved the fluidity of the Hebrew, the you know, the narrative stories. It isn't quite as systematic or doesn't lend itself to that systematics that maybe at least at the time I felt the New Testament did and certainly wasn't like the, you know, the systematic theology that I grew up with. So, yeah, very cool. Yeah. What drew you into the Old Testament? Just out of curiosity. It was also really the stories. And I loved Hebrew. I had lived in Israel for a year when I was in my 20s. And so I'd had modern Hebrew. And so I love the language. But the stories were what I was connecting with because I was connecting with my own life. And looking at that going, wow, if they can be so messed up, there's hope for me. You've honestly, like reading through your book, you can tell that the stories very much inform the way you're treating this issue. I wasn't sure when I picked it up whether I was going to get the normal sort of philosophical apologetics approach, but it wasn't that at all. It wasn't even close to that, which I loved. And so maybe talk about your approach to this issue because, you know, it's been done so many times. Right. But I don't know that I've seen a lot of concentrated biblical work on the problem of evil. Most of them sort of tend to stray into that sort of philosophical and, you know, sort of ethereal realm of things. Exactly. And that was that was why I ended up doing the dissertation. I came to seminary with so many questions. When I started in seminary and even after I'd finished my MDiv degree, I didn't know if God was good. I didn't know if God was just. I didn't know if God loved me. So and that was after seven years of being around theology and biblical classes. But I was wrestling with what had happened in my life and the abuses and the traumas and so forth. And and couldn't philosophical answers just weren't going to help. And as I started looking to see what had been written from really more of a personal biblical theology, I was shocked at how little I found. So that's what sparked it when I knew when I was going to start my PhD that that was why I had to do it. I wanted to dig in. What does what does the Hebrew Bible and then, of course, eventually I make it through to the New Testament. But it's grounded in the Hebrew Bible there. You know, that's the Bible Jesus and the Hebrews up to a gent, you know, that's the Bible they were reading. So it's like, what are they finding? So I said, and I'm going to start at Genesis. So, yeah. And that that is where as I was going through the studying in the Hebrew and going through some of the classes and looking at the stories and looking at the semantics because I started with what does the word actually mean? What does the word evil mean? Because, as I quote in my book, the Google, their original code of conduct was simply don't be evil. And they quote the former CEO on an NPR interview. And he says, well, nobody really knows what what evil is. Talk is except maybe the Bible or something has something to say about it. All right. Well, at least he knows that. Well, yeah, so that was my goal. What does the Bible say about evil? What is it from God's perspective? Well, it really is an important thing because I think we can boil it down to, you know, a lot of people, I think, at least in my conversations, when they talk about evil, we tend to go to very specific issues. You know, what's right or wrong about this or what's good or evil about, you know, X, Y or Z. But I think the way you frame it is a little different than that. And so maybe describe what how you would define evil or describe evil as it emerges from the Hebrew Bible. And when I I found the best way to approach it is actually the way Genesis starts. And it starts in Genesis 1 and 2, especially Genesis 1 with what is good. Because if we don't know what is good, we're not going to be able to define evil from God's or biblical perspective. And so and my dissertation began with semantics. It was a work on starting with what is the meaning of a word? What does it mean within the context and just going bigger and bigger? And how does the meaning move its way to a theology of it and a way of thinking about it? So when I started looking at good and again, I was starting with, I don't know if God is good. So I didn't know what goodness was either because I felt like I had been so let down by God and that I didn't know if he was good. And so as I looked and was digging into the words, the word good is associated with blessed and abundant and flourishing and life producing and life giving and saving and forgiving and all the and beauty and just things having to do with abundance and flourishing. And so that was really a good place to start. And then looking at the words associated with evil in Scripture and it's associated with severe lack, deficiency, distress, emotional distress as well, break in relationship, conflict.

around good and evil, I discovered that the word group that occurs the most in the book of Genesis around evil isn't good, it's the words having to do with sight. And so that opened up this whole new, the cognitive linguistics, you know, what are the relationships? Because the very first thing that a child learns is, let's see what's in this box, and that's how they know. So learning by what we see, and then all of the, even in Genesis 1, and God saw, so he creates and he saw that it was good. Sevenfold, so that sevenfold is that Hebrew thing of, okay, pay attention, this is really important. This has something to do with God, you know? And at the end, it's very good. And then as you continue, and then in Genesis 3, and their eyes were opened, and they became gods, which again, there's all kinds of language embedded in there. And then the next time we see that structure, and blank saw that blank was good, is in Genesis 3, where the woman sees that now this tree that God forbade, she saw that it was good to make her wise. Next time we see that same structure is in Genesis 6, the sons of God saw that the daughters of Adam were good, and it uses that word good. So seeing and what's your perspective? And as you build on it, you know, like, just as another example, end of the book of Judges, where life is just a complete mess. Everyone did what was right in their own eyes. And so how does God see this, and how am I seeing it? And recognizing that seeing things God's way is what is good. And when I see things other, different than how God sees it, then I'm entering into the problem of evil. Then I'm going to be causing trouble, bringing death, conflict, destruction, dismay, emotional harm, and so forth. So that sort of is a basic frame that sort of began everything else. Well, I think it's really interesting. I was doing some work just recently on the institution of kingship in 1 Samuel 8. And having read your book and saw that linkage that you make between evil and sight, sort of evil and perception is sort of the way I ended up sort of driving it. But if you look at what Israel is asking for there when they ask for a king like the other nations, they're basically saying, God, we don't like the way you're doing things. We would prefer that we get to choose how we're governed. We would prefer to go this direction. And so I think the concept, that conceptual linkage really does open things up. And it gives us inclinations, maybe even about other texts that don't include sight necessarily, but to recognize, wow, this is a fundamental choice away from God. We're deciding to, as you talk about in the book, the self-sufficiency aspect of this really does draw us away from God in many ways. And so, yeah, I love that insight. And I also loved the research you brought out regarding the Mesopotamian context for the opening the eyes of the idol. I thought that was really helpful. Maybe you talk a little bit about that, but... Sure. Yeah, I'd be happy to because that was, yeah, it's, I first read about it in Catherine McDowell's. It was actually her Harvard dissertation that she published, The Image of God in the Garden of Eden. And that's actually, it's still my favorite book. So a little bit strange, but it was, it just opened up this world for me. But she was talking about the way idols are made and were made in Egypt and ancient Mesopotamia. And you can see that how Genesis 1 and 2 and 3 are playing off of that, but also a polemic showing how God is different. So the other nations, they would create these idols and there'd be the opening of the mouth and the washing of the mouth ceremony. And it was done in a garden by a river. And so there are these, you know, we're saying, okay, okay, I see this. But then the final act when they were making these idols was the opening of the eyes ceremony. And it was at that point that the God that they had been invoking actually was considered to have indwelt this idol. And now this idol was a God. So by using that language, opening of the eyes, their eyes were opened. It indicates that they wanted to be a God independent from Yahweh God who had created them. They wanted to be their own God standing on their own, no longer being a reflection of his image. So that is, so it really shows in Genesis 3 that the temptation was, first of all, God isn't good. He's withholding something that you really do need and that you really want. And therefore God is not good because he's not really interested in your best interest. And he lies. And so if you go independent from God, if you become autonomous, then you will be your own God and your eyes will be open. And you will see what, be able to judge for yourself what is right and wrong, what is good and bad. You get to choose for yourself. And that is scary. All of us want to be in control. You know, that's the main issue for every human being. We want to be in control and we don't want to trust God. Well, and I think a lot of times when this topic comes up, one of the things that I suppose I struggled with, even when I was just doing the bit of research I was doing and writing on it that I was doing, how do you explain the origin of it? And, you know, I came up with a simplified framework, but I know you deal with it a little bit in the book, but you also deal with a lot of the spiritual realm aspect of this. So that was an area where I started researching and I was like, I don't have time for all of this. But can you kind of give us a little bit of a primer and maybe we'll move toward sort of a discussion of the origin of evil, but how the various heavenly beings sort of play a role and relate into human activities that we see in front of us, the visible, tangible activities that we notice as humans. And then this sort of angelic, demonic spiritual world that lies behind that. Just give us a little bit of a synopsis of what you covered there and how you think it relates to the issue of evil. Yes. Yeah. And in the book and in my study, you know, I lay out different ways that evil can gains entrance. And some of it is certainly a big part is human decisions, you know, our decision to be autonomous. But God did create spiritual beings. We see that, you know, all the way through. And you want one good read on that. Of course, Michael Heiser, he summarized a ton of the research that had been done on that. And there's plenty of other people who've written on it, you know, scholarly and various stripes. But again, recognizing that God created these realms of spiritual beings that have different names that we can find in both the Old and the New Testament. And so they're part of the unseen realm, generally unseen realm. And they were also made in the image of God with the ability to make freedom, to make their own choices. So a degree of autonomy is granted them. So that is one thing that humans and these spiritual beings do have in common. And so that let us make adam in our image, according to our likeness, so that they may rule. Randall Gar is a scholar who's shown very convincingly that that those times in it's in Genesis 1.26 in 3.22 and also in Genesis 11, where God says, let us. He's referring to this divine council, these spiritual beings that had been created before humanity, before the physical realm that we're part of, was this unseen realm that's unseen to us. And so there are these and they're called Elohim. And we can recognize that there's when we have capital G God in our English Bible, we know it's Elohim. But also when there's small g God, it's also Elohim or El or Eloah, you know. But again, this was the ancient word for spiritual beings. And so it's just that our Elohim, Yahweh God, is unique. He is species specific. There is none like him. He is the God of God, creator of all. But he created these spiritual beings. And then there's multiple other names that are used for these spiritual beings. Shadim, you know, a word that could be interpreted demons.

And then we have angels that are messengers and cherubim and seraphim. And cherubim are not little fat babies with wings like in Renaissance paintings. They're actually powerful throne creatures that, you know, so Isaiah and Ezekiel talk about these other. So there's these realms of spiritual beings that the Septuagint refers to as principalities and powers and thrones and dominions, which is where Paul gets his language from the Septuagint in the New Testament. You have these, so there are these powers, these levels of spiritual beings, and many of them are, of course, you know, my, the majority are those that are still serving God, like in Psalm 103, that refers to angels that are doing God's will, carrying out God's will, that that are his messengers. So we have Gabriel and Michael, two of them are named and so forth. But then we also have these other spiritual beings that made the choice to rebel against God. And so their goal was to basically, you know, in a rebellion, you want to get anybody who's loyal to the ruler of your enemy to obey you instead of the ruler of that is your enemy. So these spiritual beings, then, we can see them as malevolent forces that are seeking to destroy the image bearers of God, which is every human being ultimately. And so they had to start in the Garden. And the place where I really make that connection that really helped solidify it for me was in Luke 4 in the Temptation of Christ. And where it specifically says Jesus was driven into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And then that one place where the devil takes Jesus to a high place and shows him all the kingdoms of the world and says, if you will bow down and worship me, I will give them to you for they have been handed over to me, paradidomi. So it can be the term handed over. It can also, it's also the word used for betrayed. But where were the power of all the kingdoms that had originally been given to humanity as his image bearers in Genesis 1, 26 through 28 and in Genesis 2. Where would that authority of the kingdoms of this world have been handed over to the devil, if not in Genesis 3? And because there you see this betrayal. And I also think in Romans 3, the one you obey, you're the servant of the one you obey. So if humans chose to obey the serpent rather than God, they became servants of the serpent. Now there's, you know, I include a little bit on the scholarly discussion, is the serpent the devil? And it's like, it doesn't matter. It's a malevolent evil force and whatever you want to call it, the New Testament is a little bit more specific. So call it what you want, it's a malevolent force because it's trying to bring death to the humans and call God, and outright calling God a liar. So that's just a little taste. And I go through in the book all the different words, both in the Greek and the Hebrew, for these levels of spiritual beings. Because it's helpful. We generally don't get that in seminary. No, and I think it's a really important aspect of what we're looking at because oftentimes, you know, when we read Ephesians 6, it's probably where we encounter this the most, right? We do not struggle against flesh and blood, but against the powers and principalities, the rulers and the spiritual realms. So we read that and we say, oh, okay. But I don't think people understand the full expanse of it. And I agree with you, Jesus' temptation where, you know, I think oftentimes there's a sense in which that final temptation where the devil takes Jesus up to that pinnacle and says, look out at all the kingdoms and I'll give them to you. Where everybody's kind of sitting around like, well, how is that a temptation? He doesn't own them, right? The reality is, yeah, he kind of does. And so the question for Jesus is, do I take them just like this or do I win them another way? You know, in some way. So I think it's a really important aspect of this idea of evil and then how we're driven, how that interaction takes place. I mean, you deal with the king of Tyre and Ezekiel, which I know is kind of usually the fall of Satan text, right? It's where everybody kind of goes to go, oh, what happened before the fall of Adam and Eve? You know, what sort of driving evil cosmically, that kind of thing. And I think the way you deal with that is probably the way I would too. It's like this sort of you can't tease out necessarily what is human and what's spiritual. It's so intertwined. And we have to talk about it separately because that's just our categories. We have to think that way. The reality is these are far more enmeshed than we usually give them credit for. Is that a fair way to? Exactly. Yeah, that's that is exactly how I would say it because in that Ezekiel 28 passage, it starts with with a human king and then you're reading on and all of a sudden you've got this cherubim and these stones of fire. And it's like, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto, you know, something has changed, you know. And the same within Daniel, you know, Daniel, similar things happen there. He's starting with the human realm. And before you know it, it's like, all right, where are we now? So there's that that thin line between. And exactly in Ephesians 6 is the place where it is extremely clear, but it is in many, many other places also, you know, Colossians. He's transferred us from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his dear son. And Jesus himself, who called Satan the God of this world, Paul, the ruler of this world and so forth. So we recognize that these evil forces, they have not yet been vanquished. And that's what the end of Revelation is about. You know, God will deal with Satan and all the powers of darkness, human and spiritual. And they won't like it, but God will deal with them. But in the meanwhile, we are living in a world at war, in a world of conflict, both human and spiritual. And that the spiritual realm overlaps with the human realm. And just being cognizant of that helps us to gain a better perspective. Say, Lord, help me to see this from your perspective. And that's why, you know, when things happen, I often do go back to that Ephesians 6 passage. I'm not just dealing with flesh and blood and these these evil powers. The only power they have is to deal with our mind. They can't do their power works through humans, sometimes through animals, you know, like we saw in the and so forth. You know, someone said the first case of deviled ham, you know, anybody just had to throw that in. So we recognize. And that's why there's so much stress in the New Testament also about being transformed in our mind, changing the way we think, reading Scripture throughout Scripture, you know, choosing to listen to God's word and letting letting God's word and even in the Old Testament, all the images are intended to to form people's imaginations because the things that we look at, if God is trying to help us see things from his spiritual vantage point and not another spiritual vantage point. So the way that we think, the thoughts that we accept into our heads, sometimes they're our own thoughts, but sometimes they're thoughts implanted from dark forces. And we're not used to talking about that in most circles in the U.S. because, you know, we just think we're just too intelligent for that. But nevertheless, but nevertheless, from Scripture and from many, many people's experiences, these things are very real. Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's one of the crucial aspects of this whole problem of what we might call God and evil. Right. In some senses, I don't really feel like what you're doing is a theodicy. Right. It doesn't feel like that at all to me. And so so I want to be careful not to sort of characterize it like that. But I think a lot of times when people think of God and evil, oftentimes what they think about is there there may be, it seems to me, like an assumption that I'm basically good. And so I don't understand what all these other people are doing. Like, I don't I don't understand why all these other people are so evil and horrible and cruel and whatever. But I'm basically good. And I think that's a like number one, it's one of those starting points that's really ripe for these spiritual powers to sort of implant in our skulls, like that the whole rest of the world is bad, but we're basically good. I mean, we may have some stuff we need to fix, but come on now. Right. We're not as bad as they are. And so I think the whole notion of the spiritual warfare that we go into has been maybe on the one hand sensationalized and on the other side, completely and totally underplayed. Right. And so I what I loved about your work and I was a little surprised to see you treating so much of it within that. I was really encouraged by it, but I was surprised just because a lot of times, again, when I'm reading more theodicy oriented, you know, philosophical treatments of this, they really don't dive into that. And I felt like you did a really nice job of helping people situate. Look, there's this other worldly aspect to this, that these these spirits have been given governance. You know, in Deuteronomy, we see that the sons of God are given these different territories and they sort of rule over them. And so this is a reality that was fairly well understood

300 years, but certainly the last 150 years of the Enlightenment when we became too smart for that, you know, which is exactly what C.S. Lewis in the screw tape letters, that's basically what he's addressing. He's saying, you know, for these, you know, intelligent, you know, European and Americans, let's just stay in, it reminds me of a Malaysian. He was, he's been teaching intercultural studies. I met him as a PhD student and he made the comment, demons like to contextualize. So in other words, they will try to hide themselves, either hide themselves or overdo. They will fit in the way they can be the most effective to cause as much destruction as possible. And in our culture, they do the most destruction by hiding and pretending they're not there and making us just too intelligent to believe in any kind of unseen realm that you can't see and feel. But then you get to quantum physics and say, tell me what you were gonna say about what you can see and feel, you know, what can make sense, you know, and it's so your mind blows on that. But, yeah, it's, we need to gain an understanding of these things that are plainly stated in scripture and recognize that we need to not be ignorant of Satan's schemes. And most of us are, you know, Paul says, you know, we're not ignorant of the schemes, but most of us are. Yeah, yeah. We're sort of embedded in a context that as these ideas are hiding within, as these beings are really influencing us through these ideas, if we're not deeply embedded within God's word and trying to make sense of the world from a theological perspective, we are very susceptible to falling prey to any of these ideas, good, bad, or indifferent, right? I mean, I think that's the real trick that I've come across is it's like getting enamored with a good thing is not a particularly good thing, right? That I don't think you deal with in the book, but I've done some initial research on Augustine's ordering of love, right? And so, you know, when those get misordered or disordered, we're in a situation where we're going to be chasing something on our terms or on the world's terms, as opposed to loving that thing on God's terms. Yes. And I think that is such a good point. As a matter of fact, if I could just riff on that, what you just said for a bit, and Augustine would be a great example. So what, you know, your research on that is when we look at where does evil come from and where does it get its power? And I contend, I've found that evil gets its power from what God created good. So, you know, one of the simple examples is a cancer, a cancer, it's a mutation within a healthy cell, but it uses the life-giving power of that cell to reproduce itself to create death. And so it can't exist without first existing in a healthy cell and then overtaking that cell and multiplying itself. So it uses the power of what was created good to multiply itself for the purposes of death. And love is the other incredible example because love can bring the greatest highs, the most wonderful, but also cause the deepest suffering. And as you quoted, referred to Augustine, loving someone as God has made them, you know, loving, valuing a person, wanting their best. Old Testament scholar Dan Block calls love, defines love as a covenant commitment to the shalom or the well-being of another. And so when love is a commitment to the well-being of another, then you have life and goodness flowing. But when somebody looks at someone and instead of wanting their well-being, they want the person. I want that person to be mine. And if they can't be mine, they can't be anybody else's. And now you've taken the power of what was intended for good and you've twisted it, you've polluted, corrupted it. And now that life, what was intended as and created as a life-giving power, now in a person taking what they want, they turn what was intended for good and now it becomes destructive all the way to death and now it becomes harm, tremendous harm. So the more potential for goodness something has, the more potential that forces of evil will try to twist it and pollute it in order for that power to be used to create the greatest damage, death. You know, like Jesus said, the thief comes only to steal, kill, and destroy, but I came that you might have life and abundantly. So I use that steal, kill, and destroy as one of the measures when I'm looking at a situation. What's going on here? Is this bringing forth life or is it bringing forth stealing, killing, and destroying? Is there a destructive process taking what is good and using it instead to create harm? So yeah, so that's a great example is Augustine's conversation on love. And I remember at one point in your book, just to go to the steal, kill, and destroy aspect of this, you talk about, and I think it might be in the context of Eve sort of taking the fruit, that she's now grasping, right? She's grasping for something. And what that brought to mind was like Philippians 2, this grasping for something. And part of what Jesus does and illustrates for us, demonstrates for us, is that equality with God is not something to be held for one's own advantage, is the way I kind of take that language there. And I think it resonates so well with what you're saying, that the good is life-giving and evil is something that is ripped and torn so that now it doesn't benefit life, it benefits me. You know, that sense of it. Right. Yeah, and that benefit me, that goes right back to when we talked about their eyes are open and being autonomous. I want to be the one in charge. I want to decide. And so often that word take or grasp for oneself is associated with evil also and with causing harm. And, you know, whether it's in a relationship or in a power structure and so forth. But that, yeah, and I love that you brought in the Philippians 2 passage because that just shows how Christ, who he said, if you've seen me, you've seen the father. You know, I always come back there. If we have a concept of God that doesn't look like Jesus, we're, you know, then we've got to reevaluate it. Right. As soon as God starts to look more like me than Jesus, I know I'm in trouble. Exactly. Well, good. Yeah. You know, I find there's obviously so many ways we could go with this, but I think maybe one of the better areas we could explore is that idea that you just sort of put forth, this sort of steal, kill, and destroy. And the notion that many times the things that are used for evil are the good things. I think it was Lauren Winner in her book, The Dangers of Christian Practice. I'm going to kind of butcher this quote a little bit, but she talks about the deformation of practices that are commensurate with the practices themselves. You know, that practices tend to degrade in the direction of the practices themselves. And it always reminds me of like Matthew 6, where Jesus is walking with his disciples and he says, see how they're giving? Don't do it like that. Right. You see how they're praying? Don't pray like that. See how they're fasting? Don't fast like that. He's not condemning giving prayer and fasting in any stretch of the imagination. What he's saying is, these practices are deformed. They're mutations that you don't want to follow. Let's get back to the purity of this and recognize that these things have a way that they need to be wielded, a way that we need to hold them such that they are not deforming you, but forming you. Yes. And so I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about that in the context of sort of demystifying evil and understanding how this can actually work itself out a little bit. Yeah. And that example that you brought up, you know, those examples, it is so good because it's, you know, religious practice devoid of relationship is going to bring bondage and it's going to cause harm. And that's what Jesus, Jesus didn't criticize Caesar. You know, he said, pay the taxes. You know, once he criticized where the religious elites who had taken religious practice in order to make themselves more popular, you know, to make things good for themselves financially and power in power structures. And so, you know, and, and as we were calling and Jesus said, their, their tithing of their mint and cumin and so forth, but, but they've set aside the weightier matters of the law, you know, justice and righteousness, love, you know, just the, and so anytime religious practice, whether it's a religious practices to God, I'm going to read the Bible two hours and pray an hour every day. And if you're not doing it, you're not, you know, you're not a good Christian kind of thing, you know, and they may feel really good about themselves, but is it actually building a relationship or is it just a form and a tradition? And then we can do that with other people where Jesus talks about the Pharisees laying heavy burdens on others that they themselves won't carry. And so we see this all the time and we have to be careful of it in our own lives. It's just recognizing, am I doing something simply for form and is, but is, is my heart in it now I I'm, as I'm saying that I also have to qualify. There are certain like spiritual disciplines. It's not a bad word. It's a good word. You know, there's certain, there's certain rituals that are really, really helpful. There, there are things that we can do that are, that have a form, but that form.

Form should also be forming us. And when it simply becomes a form that is devoid of both transforming me and drawing me closer to God and others, then I've distorted it. Then it's simply a religious practice that has no life in it. So, yeah, I think that's, and I think that's exactly, you know, I hear people talking about a religious spirit, but that's really what that is, is, and, you know, I'm thinking of even in some of my own situation and, and what we see in the news so often, some of the Christian institutions that are prioritizing their institution, save the institution, save the system, and save the people that are in power, even though we're abusing people, but they are, and when they consider the people disposable, and keeping the priority on keeping the system in place, they have, it's, it's dead religion, and it's going to cause more harm. So we can see it on a personal level, we see it on a systematic level, systemic level. How evil can get in by telling us, I have to maintain either my image or the image of this organization that I'm in, or the image of the person who's in charge of this organization, to the detriment of the human beings whose lives are being harmed. You know, that is evil. That would be a definite, you know, that would be an example of evil. Yeah, and it's a really interesting pivot, right? Because, you know, obviously, we have this on an individual level, I agree with you about the disciplines. When the disciplines become an end in unto themselves, in other words, when doing the disciplines is really all I think about, right, I'm just doing the disciplines, why? Because I should do the disciplines. No, there's a broader sense in which these disciplines are helping me to, to use, you know, something we talked about earlier, to perceive the world differently, to perceive Christ differently, to conform more closely to his image. And so they're helping me to reorient myself and reposter myself within the world. But I think that that same sort of individual trap that we can fall into ramps up to an institutional level where we start to say, look at all these different things that we're all the good we're doing in the world, all of a sudden starts to, you do the math, and you're like, well, we're still doing more good than bad, so we should keep going. And it's like, that conclusion is the wrong conclusion. It's like, if we're doing more good than bad, I guess we could count that as a win, but we shouldn't just keep going. We should also try to take those steps back and say, well, what are we doing that's bad? And how is it that that is hindering us from accomplishing all that God would have us to do? How is it that that is blocking the Spirit of the Lord from working through us in ways that are beyond anything we could ask or think? You know, there's an element of hubris in thinking that somehow an institution is needed in a given moment and that we couldn't unleash the power of God's people collectively if that institution weren't there. And so I find that to be really compelling. And, you know, one of the one of the things that just popped in my head, it's like David and Bathsheba. That wasn't something that was ever hidden. Very seldom. I can't even think of an instance in the Bible where a leader's sin was ultimately never revealed. Yeah, I just can't think of a time. Right. These things tend to sort of, there's a reckoning always. Yes. Yeah. And Scripture is so incredibly blunt against the sins of its leaders. Right. And it makes no bones that Bathsheba is never condemned whatsoever. Her voice is silent until verse 8. All she said, the only thing we hear her say is, I'm pregnant. And, you know, and you look at the hubris of David and all of the people that he was trampling on. She was the wife of one of his mighty men and the granddaughter of one of his mighty men. And David's personal counselor, Ahithophel, was the great-grandfather. And David still, it's like, really? And then he sends multiple men to go get her. And so at any rate, but yeah, yeah, it's, but that's, I went astray a little bit from our conversation, but it's still important that Scripture does not hide people's sin. It brings it out. Yes. And what makes the difference is if that person, how that person responds when they are exposed. And that is so important to look at because David, he does repent and he does pay a price for it. And it, the price is paid through his generational line. And that is pointed out that there are consequences for, for disobeying God and doing what you know is wrong before God. Yeah. And, and Scripture is, is very clear on that. It's, but, and yet God still works because all of us have, all of us have things in our past, you know, in our minds or wherever it is. But yet we can still go to God if our, if we always seek to return to God and, and make things right with him and make things right with the ones that we have wronged. You know, that. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. That is how his kingdom is built. But yeah, but your, your conversation, you're bringing up, you know, helping people. We're helping people. We're doing good. And I've learned to completely redefine what is good. Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, it goes back to that conversation of like the good things start to mask the evil that you're doing. Like this, this sort of, they become, I've often referred to them as like a fetish, right? We get, we get so consumed with going after, oh, let me help this person. Let me help these people. Let me, this cause is so righteous. Yeah. But then all of a sudden that cause begins to obscure what God might be wanting to do or how God might be wanting to work. And we don't even really factor him in anymore. We just assume he's behind us. Right. Exactly. You know, and it may be a good rule of thumb. It's like when we, when we think that God is behind us, we may be actually doing something wrong. Right. Because he should be in front of us, you know. Yeah. You know, of course, there's like the book When Helping Hurts. And I heard an interview recently with Anne Lamott. And, and she called, I think she was quoting somebody else, but it said, help is often the sunny side of control. And I thought that was a great line. That's an awesome line. Yeah. I love that. Such a good one. Yeah. I mean, it's hard not to get into sort of a pessimistic worldview about how we go about doing this. But I also think that there's a, if we can avoid that sort of, oh, everybody's going to screw this up. And, you know, we adopt this sort of negative and pessimistic attitude. I think there's a persistence that we should be developing to be sitting back and saying, you know, this aspect of what we're doing is really good. And maybe we should keep it. These aspects of how we're getting there are completely incommensurate with, with the way Christ would do it. And so how do we, how do we reorient? What does that look like? I think there has to be a persistence there. I mean, would you, would you agree? Oh, absolutely. And a continual evaluating. We all need to have people in our lives who are not part of our organization, but that we know are godly people who will be really blunt with us. You know, I have people like that in my life. And even when I was running businesses and so forth, it was like one of my employees, but she was also a dear friend. And I knew that if I was even starting to go into the gray, she would say, that's no, no, you're not doing that. And I would listen to her and be like, pay attention. It didn't matter that I ran the company. It was like, you know, we've got to listen to the people around us and, you know, and have me walk in that humility of, I could be wrong at any moment. And especially if I have more advantages, more whatever, then all the more important to have people around me, like David had his Nathan, you know, we need people around us who are going to call us out when, when we are off, we've got to have those close relationships. And I think that's also, we see so many pastors and people in positions of power that, that are not, don't seem to be accountable to anybody that are just hiding their lives. You know, we've become, well, and that's

Because it's, I think if our lives, if we were more transparent, and obviously, you know, not with everybody, you know, not everybody's got to write a book about all the things they did stupid in their life. But at the same time, you know, at least have a few close people that we know we can go to when we're hurting. You know, we think of traumas, traumatized people are going to become either abusers or abused. We've got to deal with the traumas. We've got to deal with the abuses in our life. And like I've learned, if I see myself responding emotionally to a situation where I recognize that was a little over the top, I know, okay, this is a trigger. What is it attached to? And I go to Jesus and I say, Lord, show me what I need to know. And I'll, you know, and when I need, sometimes the Lord will show me, this is attached to this that happened when, you know, when this happened and this is the reason that you're responding in this way. You're being self-protective or whatever it is. And do counseling, have those people that we can be continually in the process of becoming more and more whole. And that should be a goal every one of us to become more and more whole. And how do we know if we're whole? If we feel a freedom, like we don't have to be hiding things. If our worship with God is sweet and it doesn't mean it doesn't have questions or we're not confounded. It doesn't mean we don't have problems by any means, but just to be continuing to grow as a human being and in our relationship with God. So that's certainly one of the things that, you know, I think of seminary, so much of it was head knowledge so often, you know, as Paul said, knowledge puffs up. You know, we can get a big head and if our head is so big that our heart can't be heard, you know, it becomes a stopper to our heart. We've got a problem. Yes. I will say, I mean, I resonate with all that. I think, you know, as we navigate this sort of individual and structural evil conversation, you know, these conversations about structural evil can get real weird real quick in my experience because it's just hard to sort of wrap your brain around what's an individual's decision. Where are we getting this from our culture? How is this all working? And one of the things that I think I walked away from your book with is it's both. Right. What we have in these different settings in which we exist, right, are deep spiritual influences that are consistently pressing in and becoming more proficient at telling stories that deny God, distort who he is. And that if we're not individually prepared to combat those stories, to retell them in our own minds, you know, or to recast them in a theological way, we're going to end up being subject to them or allowing our behaviors to be driven toward them, even when we're Christian. You know, and I think we see that an awful lot and we just don't. We need a stronger understanding of how do these institutions work from a biblical and theological perspective as opposed to just how do they have an effect? Maybe that's too simplistic, but I mean, I think that's sort of I see that coming out in your work, especially when you talk about nature. The idea of nature and evil. When we think about the pervasiveness of evil, I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with that structural evil conversation, right? It's been sort of co-opted in a number of narratives that people are like, whoa, well, let's just sort of step back on that. But I think when you realize that this tears up and that evil actually affects creation, you start to get a better sense of how pervasive this thing actually is. Yes. Yeah. Everything is interrelated in one way or another. And that is something that is a truth that I am grasping, grabbing hold of more and more clearly how everything is interrelated. And that is how God made the universe is that everything is interrelated. And, you know, from trees, you know, there's this documentary and book, The Life of Trees. And if this is true of trees in a forest, different kinds of trees, there's kind of a mother tree and they communicate. So even if a little tree is taken down, they've measured. It'll impact the life and the well-being of the other trees in a forest. No kidding. Wow. And if that's trees, how much more us as human beings. Yeah. And we think of the prophets who are railing against the Israelites and the other nations for not taking care of the poor, the widow, the marginalized, the foreigner, and raging against them. And most institutions go, you know, but that's just a, you know, that's just a whatever. And it's just the cost of doing business or, you know, that's disposable. But from God's perspective, he takes personally how we treat every human being. And we hear that certainly in the words of Jesus. So it's true in image of God language. And we can hear it in Jesus' words. Whatever you've done to the least of these, you've done it to me. So Jesus is taking personally. So as an individual or an institution, one of the ways that we should be able to pull ourselves up short is if we start seeing that we're going to tolerate the abuse or the mistreatment or the casting aside of another human being as if they don't matter, as if they have no value, then that is a marker that we have gone astray from what God is doing. So we may think things are good. We can call things good, but if it's not what God is doing, from God's perspective, it's evil. And that is really hard to swallow, but that is the standard to which I hold myself. And I say, Lord, I'm not going to be perfect like Jesus, but my goal is more and more to be doing what I see you doing, saying what I see you saying and moving toward your standards, which the standard of grace in the New Testament is so much higher than the standard of law in the Old. Because what's our hearts? Where is my heart? And when I see it, you know, I was deeply hurt by somebody that was a trusted person in my life recently. And I was, it took me time to wrestle with. I was angry. I was hurt. You know, there were things I wanted to say and do. And thankfully, there were a couple of times people said, you know, a close friend, you know, I said, no, keep your mouth shut. This is not the time. Your heart's not right. You know, and working until I could have empathy for that person who had hurt me and, you know, intentionally. And so always going back to just what, as Proverbs said, you know, just guard our heart for from it come the issues of life. And so what is good? Only what God is doing, only what God has said. And that's the top tier, but we have these markers that we can look at to help us move toward that direction. And that one of the main is how we treat people who seem insignificant to the world. It's a big marker. It's interesting you say that. I mean, just as I'm thinking personally how that's worked out in my life. I mean, when I had this period in my life where I was transitioning jobs, sort of begrudgingly, I suppose. I wasn't fired, but I resigned. But I don't know that I really wanted to resign. Right. It was just sort of, it felt like the end had come and I wasn't sure I wanted that end to come. And I was angry. And so I decided, you know, after I was done, one of the things I wanted to do was write more. So I started to do some writing, just sort of more informal stuff. And I'd have my wife read it before I would post it anywhere or submit it anywhere. And for about the first three or four months when I'd write, she'd come back and she'd be like, It's too angry. Like, you're too angry to be doing this. You need to just stop thinking about posting this. Just get it all out. But stop bringing it to me as if you're going to submit this anywhere. You shouldn't submit this anywhere. Thank God you got a wife that is wise to listen to and that you ask her. Right. Because, I mean, I look back, I mean, I have it all saved. Like, it's all on my computer somewhere and never submitted anywhere. But I'll look back and read it and I was like, yeah, I was too angry. Like, it comes off as really sharp and nowhere near as nuanced as I wanted to be or thought I was being. Like, I was just angry. And so writing all that out, it was actually helping, helpful in part of my process to just sort of get past all of that. But I think without her, I would have put that out into the world and it wouldn't have been helpful for me. It wouldn't have been helpful for others. It wouldn't have been gesturing toward my love for God. It would have just been the actions of someone who was really frustrated, really angry and had no self-control. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm sure all of us can relate to that. But you're right. Writing it down and just not and keeping it in a file somewhere is a process. Yeah. You know. Make sure it's not synced to the cloud or anything crazy, but, you know. Well, you look at the Psalms, 67 out of 150 Psalms are Psalms of lament. Yeah. And there's this language. Now, those are written out. And some of it's like, ooh, really? You know, bash it

I love the book. I think last sort of question on it, I suppose, is, you know, as you go forward and as people read this, right? What are you hoping that they kind of take away from it? You know, what would be, you know, if you had to summarize it as a broad lesson, where do you want people to be? I mean, you end this book with a chapter called For Those Who Mourn, right? Turning ashes into beauty. Is that sort of the lesson you're hoping people get out of this? Is that the trajectory you want to send people on? Talk about that a little bit. I, if I had to choose one, that might be the one, but there's actually a few. And one is to not treat the problem of evil in your life as something that's simplistic or the problem of evil, especially in somebody else's life, as something simplistic. But it's also written to give people hope because I, I, almost every week I'm in conversation with a former student or somebody in ministry that is just about ready to give up on church, on people, on God, on a relationship. And, and they've run out of hope. And sometimes we just need hope. It's like things, something can turn around. Let's go to God and let's ask God how he wants to turn good into evil. So perhaps, perhaps the two key verses, one from the Old Testament, one from the New, from the Old would be Joseph, you know, Genesis 50, of course, 20, you know, what you intended for evil, you know, God intended for good that many lives would be saved. And, and then in Romans 12, you know, don't be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. And, and it's going to God, giving God however much trust a person can to go to God. And it may just start out just a little sliver, but go and say, I need to know how to turn this around. I need to know that you're with me. And I'm going to trust you just this much. So depending on where a person is, it's to give them hope and that God can take, Oh my goodness. I, I just, I see so many situations that appear hopeless and people who've been through far worse than I've been through and to see what God can do. And it just blows my mind. It's like, God really is good. He is the great recycler. He is the one that can take the worst situation, the worst, most devastating horrors and still work something that brings good and life out of it. So I think that is, you know, that's far more than one thing, but it's really just to have that God can do, can, that God actually is bigger than our, all of our messes. And, and I have, again, I went from being somebody who didn't know to, it's like, whatever happens now, it's like, Lord, you know, sometimes I'll say, you know, I said with something, it's like, really, did I need this too? But then I'll just talk it out with God. So prayer is just talking with God, both of us talking and listening. He listens to me. I want to hear from him. I'll go to his word. I want him to speak to me out of his word, but I'm learning to trust that relationship with the Holy spirit, with God to give me wisdom, give me strategies when, when I encounter evil, whether it's in my life, someone else's life or in a system. So that would be, that's my hope to just learn to talk to God and develop that relationship so that we can actually be truly God's agents. Just one last thing, you know, the, the Lord's prayer. It's so much more meaningful for me. Your kingdom come, your will be done here on earth where my feet are standing right now as you declare in heaven, because God has only good in heaven. And so I want to bring his strategy, his goodness into my situation and he can show me how to transform this life where I am, where I have influence, where my feet are standing. That is the fulfillment of the Lord's prayer that has become so meaningful to me. And basically my daily purpose. How can I bring your goodness into where I'm standing today? Very cool. Well, I think that's a great place to kind of wrap up. I have one more question though, and and then we'll, we'll kind of close it out here. I know we're getting close to time. What what's next for you? I mean, you've just finished up this big research project. Are you, are you sort of spinning off and doing some stuff related to this? Are you, you know, off on new things? Like what's, what's the next project for you and grief? Yeah, I, I am still talking with groups about evil and that's probably going to happen the rest of my life. But I am working on a book on bold women, how how God strategically has placed women in the Old Testament to, to advance redemption history. So that's one book. I said, Lord, I need a little bit of break from evil and then I'm also working with a New Testament scholar, a friend of mine. It's a, it'll be a Zondervan book on a biblical theology of forgiveness. So those are my two projects and and it's, and they're, they're fun. Then I've got a couple more evil books up ahead, but it'll be evil and the justice of God. And, you know, so I'm still working on that. Okay. Very cool. Well, I would just encourage everybody to go out and get demystifying evil, a biblical and personal exploration. I really love the book. There's a lot of personal stories in here that we didn't get into in the podcast at all. But I just encourage people to get the book, read through it. It, it's a fantastic treatment. I think of evil from a biblical and theological perspective, very different than any other theodicy I've ever any other theodicies that are out there. Like I said, I, I don't even want to classify it as a theodicy. I just think you've done some really fantastic biblical and theological work on evil and so appreciate you putting it out there in the world because I think it's a fantastic book, so I can't recommend it enough. And yeah, and look for other work from Ingrid Farrow while you're out there shopping for books and content. We'll have all the links to this up in the show notes, but I would just encourage you to read it. And Ingrid, it has been a pleasure talking with you about this. Thanks for being on the show. It's been great to reconnect with you a little bit, fellow TED's alumni and and reconnect just a touch. So thanks for being here. Thank you so much, James. Really enjoyed the conversation. It's so good to talk to you. Thank you. Absolutely. Okay, everybody. Well, we'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care y'all. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. 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