Peter Y. Hong | True Globalization: Reconciling Humanity in Christ

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Dr. Peter Hong. And Peter's written a book called The Reconciliation of Humanity in Christ, The Church's Ministry of Leading and Serving the Globalized World. Peter is an ordained minister with the Missionary Church denomination, and he's also a chaplain with the Federal Bureau of Prisons. He recently graduated in 2023 with his PhD in Theological Studies from Columbia International University. We connected on LinkedIn. We've been talking a little bit before we started, you know, recording the interview. And so I'm excited to hear Peter a little bit about your book, the content, but I think more importantly, why you chose this. This is the fruit of your dissertation, as I understand it. And so I'm just interested why this topic was so interesting to you. So, number one, thanks for being here. I'm really happy to have you on the podcast. And then two, if you wouldn't mind just telling the story about how you got to this topic. I think that'd be a really good way to start. All right, James. Thank you for having me on your program. Yeah, absolutely. I think globalization and theology is something that many people don't think about. A lot of people think about globalization in economic terms. They think of as free trade system that allows all the nations in the world to prosper together by trading and also the spread of democracy, the liberal democracy that triumphed over communism. And I didn't really think about this at all, even though, you know, you and I are probably similar age, right? Sure. Yeah, I grew up in the 80s and I graduated high school in 1991. And so this was just after when the, you know, Berlin Wall fell. And by the way, my best friend's mother was German in high school. And so, you know, I remember clearly when the Berlin Wall fell, my best friend, you know, came to me and told me his mom was crying because, you know, the Berlin Wall, you know, finally fell and the country united again. You know, so I had this real time experience where my friend was actually half German. Not only that, you know, the Soviet Union also fell. And I actually went to Soviet Union when, you know, it was the under communism. Yeah. The summer of 1991. So I traveled across the entire landscape of Soviet Union from the west to all the way to the island of Sakhalin, you know, right above Japan. And so, you know, people think the United States is big. Well, when you fly across Soviet Union, it's another experience, right? I don't know how many time zones. It's more than four, definitely. Right. Wow. So I saw Soviet Union with my own eyes at such a young age. You know, I was probably 17 at the time. And I went with the church. So our church was heavily into the mission. And when the, when the door opened for Christians to go into Soviet Union, our church sent a lot of missionaries and our church also sent mission, mission teams, you know, like a mission choir. I was part of the mission choir. And so we went and we went and so, so I witnessed, I witnessed the unfolding of globalization. That's what I'm trying to emphasize. Okay. And since then, the whole world was experiencing this economic growth, prosperity, peace. And so I became a Christian when I was 17. Okay. And I'm sure some of your audience could relate to this, but I was one of those Christians that basically spent all my time going to church, reading the Bible, praying and doing church ministry. You know, that, that, that was my life. So, you know, I became a Christian and I, I was just really dedicated to following the Lord and spreading the gospel. And I just, that's all I did. So I really didn't get involved in the world. I didn't even read any books. I didn't watch any TV. I used to be a huge sports fan. I used to watch, you know, baseball, football, you know, basketball. I gave that, I gave that all up. So I had no time. I basically, I basically had no time to watch sports, you know? So, so I lived like that. And to fast forward, I became a minister and I did ministry with the local church. But eventually I became a prison chaplain. And so when I became a prison chaplain, I began to realize that, you know, this is a unique mission field. So a lot of people have this idea that if you become a prison chaplain, you can go to prison and just preach the gospel, you know, evangelize, you know, and help inmates to become Christians. Well, that's, that's true, but it's also very difficult to do that because in prison, yes, you can evangelize. Okay. But if you do it too aggressively, you know, that's considered proselytization, you know, because in prison, there are all kinds of inmates, right, from different backgrounds. And, you know, we, we, we can't, we can't basically like force people to become Christian. Okay, well, evangelization is not forcing people, but still it comes across, you know, to aggressive. And so, yeah, so I was kind of like struggling, you know, what, what am I supposed to do in this place? And one day I ran into someone that helped me to understand what this place was about. I was walking in the prison compound and I ran into a staff that I didn't know. And I asked them, what do you do here? And he said, I'm a plumber. And that's when it dawned on me, like plumber? That means prison has a plumber, prison has a barber, prison has, you know, all these people that, that we need in society, right, to, to make our life possible. And I realized that prison is no different than a city. It's like a small city. And that's when I began to compare prison with the world. You know, what is the, what is the, what is the similarity? Because we, we think of prison as something that's very different than, than our society, right? Sure. Well, it's, it's almost the same thing, except the inmates are living in closer proximity, right, closer proximity. And so they don't have much privacy and they don't have everything we have. They have a limited resource. And so they, they have to help each other, right? They have to cooperate in order to survive and to live well in prison. And so when I watched their behavior in prison, I realized that, you know, prison is a very difficult place to, to live. Okay, I've worked in all kinds of prisons, high security prison, medium, low, even a medical center. So there is a medical center in the prison where I work. It's, it's the federal prison where I work is in Butner, North Carolina. And the hundreds of sick inmates live in this medical center and many of them have cancer and all kinds of disease and eventually they die. And so I have seen, you know, from violence to, you know, illness that the inmates have to deal with. And the only way they can really survive and live in this place is that, is for them to help each other, to be nice to each other and to cooperate with each other. And this becomes very apparent in the chapel, right? So in prison, we have all kinds of facilities, right? We have housing units, we have a food service dining hall, we have a recreation area, we have education, classrooms, and we have the chapel. And in the chapel, all these inmates come and they share the space, right? So we don't just have Christians, so we have.

what we call Protestant believers coming to the chapel, okay? But we also have Catholics. We also have Muslims. We have Jews, Hindus. We have Native Americans, Rastafarians, Jehovah's Witness. So, you know, you name it, we have it. So all those faith groups come to the chapel and we share the same space. We take turns to have a worship service. And so in this kind of environment, I realized, well, I was really trying to find out what is the best way to preach the gospel to these people? What is the best way to minister to unbelievers in prison? And one thing I realized is that I can't do it the way I used to do it out in the world. I can't just, you know, go after them with the gospel, okay? Because they are coming to the chapel trusting that I'm a chaplain who is going to help them to have their service, right? So if they come to the chapel and if I immediately say, hey, do you believe in Jesus Christ? You know, let me tell you about Jesus. That's not going to come off too well, you know? They're not coming to the chapel for that reason, you know. So I have to help them to have their service. I have to be nice to them. And I realized that I am a chaplain. I'm a Christian, but I am a pastor for all the inmates. You see what I'm saying? The inmates come to the chapel. They have their own religious beliefs, but they see me as a pastor. And this is kind of like hard for people to understand. But, you know, if you work as a chaplain, one of the things that we do is we help inmates when they are in trouble. You know, when they have, for example, emergencies. They're in prison and one day their mother would pass away or their son would have an accident and, you know, he would be in a serious medical condition. So it happens to all of them. And when those things happen, the chaplain's, our job is to, you know, call them into the chapel and we make sure they're okay. And we basically, we minister to them. You know, we help them to make a phone call to their family to to see what's going on. So I've been doing this kind of work for 14 years. And one thing I guess the thing that changed my attitude about ministry is that I'm not just a Christian minister ministering to Christians, but I can also reach out to those people that are outside the church. So this is where I got the idea to write the book about globalization. Okay. Let me let me ask you a couple of questions there because I think it's interesting to sort of clarify some of the dynamics before you jump into the book. Yeah. So I mean, I would think that, you know, just that description you gave of, you know, a Rastafarian or a Muslim coming into the chapel and you really needing to minister to them, not to necessarily explicitly proclaim the gospel to them in every time is really complicated by the coercive element of prison. Right. They don't have, they can't go to another chapel. In other words, right. They're going to this chapel. And so you really have to sort of walk that line of, hey, let me try to help this person, serve this person. Um, and eventually get to the gospel versus, you know, holding up the, you know, beating them about the head and shoulders with the Bible because then they're not going to come back. And now this person who is incarcerated and doesn't have other options, I've eliminated this option for that person. Is that a fair characterization of how that goes? That's right. That's exactly what's happening. And so when those inmates who are not Christians come to chapel, if I treat them right, then I'm opening the door for them to hear the gospel. Right. Yeah. And these inmates, they play the long game. Okay. Some of them are, you know, they have life sentence. Okay. Yeah. And so they, they have a poker face and they, they, you know, when you talk to them, they're not really revealing to you who they, what they're really about, but they're watching every move you make. They're little, they're listening to every single thing you say, and in, in their head, in their hearts, they're making a judgment as to, you know, what is good for me, you know, and what is the right, you know, what is the right path. And they don't tell me directly, but you know, oftentimes, you know, I hear the inmates say how they appreciate they were treated, you know, because in prison, inmates, you know, we can't imagine they're not treated too well. You know, I mean, I'm not saying all the staff in prison, they mistreat inmates, but generally they're going to be looked down at, you know, and they're going to be pushed around. And so, you know, as a human being, it's really a humble position, you know, and they don't like that. Okay. But if a chaplain or even Christian inmates treat them well, that really establishes a good foundation for the gospel, for the word of God to be planted and grow eventually. And so that's where, you know, that's what I'm talking about, you know, and that's the main emphasis in my book. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text guide to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text guide to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Yeah, so when you pivot outside of prison, which I kind of want you to get to, but I'm thinking that part of what you're seeing in prison actually happens outside of prison too. The difference is that you don't have a captive audience. Literally, you don't have a captive audience. So in other words, if we're too aggressive at a certain point in sharing the gospel, if all we want to talk about with a new person that we're meeting is the gospel of Jesus Christ, right? There's a passion behind that and there's a zeal that's sort of respectable, right? If all we want to do is share the gospel, but the reality is this person now has choices. They don't ever have to come back to us. They could go to any number of other influences around them. And so without that captive audience, we may not see these same dynamics happening, but I'm wondering if you think that they actually do, right? Like that when someone, a non-Christian comes to me and I'm in a bad mood or I'm frustrated with them or I overshare or what have you, right? I'm not really listening to them. I'm just trying to get my message out. I'm not ministering to them and serving them. I may not see what happens because they're not around the next day. You in the prisons, you do. You see what happens the next day, right? You can gauge some of those reactions, but it's a data point that we're lacking a lot of times. Yeah, it's very similar. Different but similar. And what's happening in the world is that the world is becoming smaller and smaller through all the connections that we have, especially the digital connections. And so globalization not only brings all the nations together through trade and through, let's say, spread of liberal democracy. Okay, all those things bring the nations together. But the digital connections make it a lot easier. And so, you know, we're going through a time in which the world is becoming a single space. I really like that description. This world used to be all divided, right? We used to be divided by borders and distance and language. And all those barriers are breaking down, you know, even language. I mean, because of the AI and all the apps that we have, you can easily translate, especially written language. And so as the world is coming together, we're really rubbing shoulder to shoulder in many cases. And people think, you know, people think that we still have a lot of distance with people, right? We live in our homes. We live in our community. We go to our church. We don't go to, you know, Muslim mosque or something like that. Okay. So we think that we're separated. But in my view,

The world is becoming more and more like prison where more and more privacy is disappearing. This is not nothing new, okay? People know that they're losing privacy, okay? And that's just reality. That's the reality of, you know, having all these computers around us and, you know. And so, as the world is coming closer and closer together, Christians need to be ready to react, to respond, and to minister to people who are coming closer to us, just like my experience in prison, right? You just mentioned the inmates come to chapel and they have no other place to come, you know, come but the chapel, okay? You might not think that way in this world, but I believe, I believe that's what's happening, that more and more we are We are becoming closer. And as we come closer, of course, it feels uncomfortable, right? I've just mentioned to you that, you know, when I was young, all I did was just read the Bible and pray and go to church. So for a person like me, I never spent time with secular people. You know, I never spent time with Muslims. I've never spent time with people who were different race, for example. That's another example, okay? So I was comfortable with my own community. I'm ethnically Korean, so I spent most of my time with Korean people. But today, that is really changing. And today's world is giving us a new context for the church to respond to. And so, to me, that is globalization. The world becoming more and more into a single space, and we need to learn how to act. We need to learn how to speak, and we also need how to listen to other people, because without listening, we can't really respond. It's interesting in your book, you talked a little bit about this and some of the deterrents to globalization. Fundamentalist religion and nationalism, populism were a couple of those. And so these movements are, don't let me mischaracterize them, but just based on what you just said, those are more localizing movements. They're attempts to preserve a local space in a world that is becoming one space and much closer together. How do you think about the legitimacy of providing that local space, providing some sense of local, more organized community around a particular affinity or religion or race or set of values or whatever versus this one space that you're talking about? Well, that's a great question. And this is the natural consequence of globalization. See, in my book, I first explained that globalization is driven by secularists, especially the elite. Okay, and so what they're doing is they're forcing people to come together. They're trying to force the world to become one, right? And in my book, I criticize this as a false religion because what they're trying to do is bring humanity together without Christ, right? Without God. And so when you do that, people are not going to like it, right? When you When you try to diminish the national borders and let, for example, you know this is controversial topic, but let all these migrants, you know, flow into your country. Okay, well, you know, there are people who's gonna, you know, be sympathetic to the plight of migrants and welcome them, but there are also going to be people who are like wondering, wait a minute, what's going on? You know, our country is being run over by these migrants and we don't like that, okay? And so you're gonna have these two different responses, and the world really has no answer for that, okay? And so that's why we constantly see in the news, you know, all these conflicts that's going on. I think right now nationalism, populism is really flowering. And so I'm not saying that those movements are necessarily wrong. Okay, it's just a consequence of globalization. When people are forced to live together in a single space, you know, like in prison, when you put all these inmates and you know, put them in one unit, what they do is they fight, right? They get aggressive because they're all from different backgrounds, you know, they got, we got, you know, the white inmates, black inmates, Hispanic inmates, and they're all many of them aren't, you know, they were in gang. And so they're gonna have a huge conflict. Okay, and so in this world, it's not to that extent, but people are gonna be uncomfortable and people are going to respond in a negative way. Not everyone is going to be, you know, opening up their arms and welcoming, you know, other people to come into their neighborhood, to come into their, you know, homeland. And so, yeah, I write about that. Fundamentalism is another issue. Okay, so well, let's touch upon that, okay, because this is This has to do with pluralism. Okay. And so I mentioned, you know, in prison in chapel, we have all these different religious groups come and they share space. Well, that's basically what's happening in the world. And that's why the pluralism has been spreading. And you know, many conservative Christians, you know, I'm a conservative Christian. And so, you know, we really have a problem with this pluralistic kind of world that's unfolding, but we have to realize that, you know, we can't go back in time. We can't go back 100 years, 200 years back in time when there were no Muslims around here. Okay, they're here now. What are we going to do? This is not just about Christians and Muslims. So if you go to countries like Switzerland, I think Switzerland used to be Catholic, predominantly Catholic country. But, you know, in Europe, the problem, the conflict is between the Catholics and Protestants, right? And so it used to be separated, okay? But now, you know, more and more Catholics and Protestants are sharing the same space. You know, this is not, you know, four or five hundred years ago. This is a completely different context. And so we need to understand that the rise of fundamentalism, nationalism, and even racism is natural consequence of false globalization, the worldly globalization. That's my big point. And Christians need to recognize that. Yeah, so let me just try to, so let me make sure I'm getting all this right, because I think your analogy of the prisons is really interesting. I mean, I could see how it would even go into relations of, let's say, freedom. You know, as we've had the McDonaldization of everything, right? While that makes, you know, happy meals accessible around the world, which I guess is fantastic. It also then constrains the choices, the food choices that you have even when you're traveling abroad. And so, you know, I've been to Israel and you can get McDonald's in Israel, right? I've been to Germany and you get McDonald's in Germany. It's like, why would you? Because there's so many other good things to try. But there is a sense in which our freedoms, our freedom is being constrained simply by the set of choices that are available to us as we sort of enter into new places. And that's part of that one space conglomerate. So I guess my point is, when you're using that analogy of the prisons, I think there's a lot of facets you can go with, but what I hear you talking about is this prison is one space where there are, there's a pluralistic sort of community within it. That pluralistic community has to do two things. It has to collaborate together in order to survive. But ultimately, there are frictions that are sort of tied in specifically to being imprisoned in this space, that tightest space. And so you end up with also conflict. Yes. And so there's this mix of collaboration and conflict that we are experiencing as we ratchet that up to a broader social level, just dynamically around the world. We're seeing the same thing. There's a necessity for collaboration, right? In order for the world to work. Now we're talking about trade between nations, is sort of an example. But we're also seeing conflict because ultimately the values in one nation aren't gonna match the values in another. You know, when migrant, when immigrants are allowed into a country without any sort of enculturization, without any sort of training in what it means to be part of this nation, that creates those conflicts. It creates a true pluralism. And so that's sort of the analogy you're making. And then I like what you just said. It's a false plural, sorry, a false globalization. Yeah.

A false globalization. And I have a feeling, I mean, I've read your book, so I kind of know where you're going, but I'm interested to get there. Like when we talk about the false globalization, what in your mind then is the true globalization? How does that, how do you reform that in your book? Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide. Or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. True globalization is basically fulfillment of God's plan for humanity. So we know from reading scriptures like Ephesians 1.10 that God's plan is to bring all things together under Christ. So this is something that I think many Christians don't emphasize enough. How does the world end? How does God's creation end? You know, when you read the book of Revelation or different parts of scripture, it basically describes this time of unity, right? Time of peace. Isaiah chapter 2 is a perfect example. It's a time in which all the nations put down their weapons of war and they learn to live together in peaceful way, following God's word, right? And we know that that's the word of Jesus Christ. And so true globalization is what the Bible is describing as this time in which all people, all the nations and all the cultures are coming under the reign of Christ. And Christians need to recognize that, okay, the Bible talks about two aspects, right? The world is sinful and the world is becoming worse. And that's why God's judgment is coming. Okay, and so that's one way to look at the end of the world. But another way to look at the picture is that in the midst of all that, in the midst of sin and chaos and degeneration, the gospel is spreading and God's power is working in the lives of people in every culture, in every nation. And ultimately, God is going to be victorious. And actually the Bible is describing that, especially in the book of Revelation, and Christ is coming back and all the saints are following him and we are going to win this war. And this war is not a militaristic warfare. This is a spiritual warfare. The warfare that Christians need to win is the spiritual warfare in which we lead more and more people to Jesus Christ and into the God's kingdom. Okay, so that's what I describe as true globalization. It's a time in which Christians are engaging with the world, engaging with people who are different than us. And we are persuading them. We are gently leading them toward Christ. I talked about, you know, the aggressive evangelistic approach versus more gentler approach. We are still preaching the gospel, but in a way that is not offensive to people, in a way that is not going to turn them off, you know, by first of all being friendly to them, being respectful to them, and also being ready to help them when they are in trouble, when they are in need of our help, that we need to step up and just embrace them and do what we can. And all these things help more and more people to come closer and closer to the fold of God, fold of his kingdom. And, you know, it may sound, you know, too optimistic. And some people might interpret this as, I think, what the theologians call post-millennialism. I'm sure you're familiar with that, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I wouldn't categorize it. I'm not, I'm not a, I don't hold to a specific eschatology because, you know, that's another topic. But I just think that if you read the Bible with a different lens, you can see a lot of positive outcome that God is, or telling. You know, another example is that we know that God wants people to be saved. Okay, he wants many people to be saved. And, you know, there's a scripture that basically says that God wants all people to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Okay, well, you know, we can't, we can't expect every single person to be saved. Okay, that's a, that's a universalism. But if you think about it, if, if the power of God's salvation is really great. Okay, we know that it can save the worst human being in this world, right? We, we can see, God's word can save people individually. Okay, but if God is that powerful and his word is true, then, you know, why, why wouldn't it be able to save more people than we expect? You know, I mean, there, there's like, you know, I think 8 billion people in the world now. And so, you know, I look at it from that perspective. God created so many people in this world and he has filled the earth with all kinds of people in every corner. And if at the end of the world, only a few percentage of those people are saved, you know, that's better than nothing, but I mean, still, does that really glorify God? I think that if more and more people are saved by the gospel, that glorifies God the most. Well, I think there's a sense, as I read your book, that you weren't gesturing towards some utopia, which is more of that post-millennial sort of feel, right? Like, yeah, let's, let's build it for God as opposed to let's participate as God builds it sort of feel to it. Yeah. But I would also say, I think you're, you're right in what you're pushing people not to assume. Yeah. Don't assume that it's going to only be a fraction of humanity that's going to get saved. Don't assume that, you know, if we hit that one, 2% mark that we've done a really great job or something like that. Right. Yeah. Like, why don't we assume that it's more and allow that, that assumption then to drive us. Yes. Let that assumption then to say, there's always this new possibility for new life in this particular person, in this particular region, as opposed to thinking to ourselves, humanity is inevitably going to be judged. It's inevitably going to fall apart. And there's no real point in me doing any of this. And so a minimal effort is an appropriate effort. Right. I think we have to avoid that sort of an assumption. And, and what I hear you talking about is let's not limit God's potential. Let's not limit the gospel's potential, but let's participate with him in a robust way and allow him to bring in the results as he sees fit. Yes. But let's not short him or ourselves by deciding all of a sudden that, you know, a minimal effort is an appropriate effort. Yes. I think you captured it really well. You know, I used to not think that there is any hope in this world. You know, I used to think, you know, I'm, I'm originally from LA. That's my hometown, you know, that's where I grew up. And, you know, when I, when I saw the world, as I was growing up, I mean, it was awful. Okay. I can't describe it in detail, but, but I just never thought that anything could change. And you know, this negative view of the world and just abandoning it. Okay. Well, the world is corrupt and, and there's really not much we can do about it. I'm with my book. I'm trying to change this attitude, this assumption that you're talking about. Here's another example. You know, I once heard this testimony of a missionary. No, he wasn't a missionary. He was a military chaplain, right? He was a military chaplain and he went to Iraq, you know, during the war. And he came back and he reported to the church. He saw awful things. There, there, there's just terrible things that's happening that people don't really even know about. And he said, I can't even talk about it. And he said, the only way that this world is going to be saved.

from all this misery is when Jesus Christ comes back. And so with that statement, you know, He did two things. One is to give us hope, which is right. You know, we're waiting for Jesus to come back, and He is our ultimate solution. He is, you know, the King who is going to set everything right. But what He also did was basically tell us that there's nothing you can do. This world is lost. And so the only thing we need to do is just preach the gospel and just, you know, wait, just wait for the Lord to come back. And I'm trying to basically encourage Christians to think outside this kind of way. I think you captured it perfectly. Don't, you know, don't assume too little, you know. We can't expect everything to change, but let's not limit what God can do through the church. Yeah. We're running short on time, but I think, you know, we're coming to the end of the episode, but I do think the letters to the seven churches at the beginning of Revelation really capture aspects of what you're talking about. You know, you have the loss of the first love in the church of Ephesus where they're no longer being a faithful witness because they've sort of pulled themselves in and are just concerned about doctrinal purity, right? And so they're insulating themselves and being holy, but not preaching the gospel, not reaching out to a world. They're just waiting for the end and they're critiqued for that. And you have those different iterations across the seven letters that sort of give the impression that, hey, look, endurance is what we're doing. We're enduring suffering. We're enduring the turmoil of a fallen world. But as we're doing it, we're also proclaiming. We're also out there doing ministry. And I think that you're right to suggest that people just don't need to fall back to that sort of minimalist position where it's like the world is so broken, there's no point in even trying to fix it. That's not exactly where we're supposed to be. And so, yeah, I really appreciate it. I appreciated that aspect of your book. I think maybe to close, this is what I usually ask my guests one question as we kind of close out the episode. So I'll ask you and you can answer it however you'd like. But what do you think the church needs to be doing today, just given everything we've talked about, everything you've written? What do you think the church needs to do today in order to be and make disciples, be and make disciples more faithfully? What does that look like for the church today? To be disciples of Jesus Christ more faithfully in our time, we need to be more merciful, more loving, and more empathetic, I think, to the world. Our world is very sick. Our world is suffering because of sin, because of corruption. And because people do not know Jesus and they do not know the God that we know. And as Christians, we need to really be merciful to these people. And we need to reach out to them with a good attitude. We need a lot of patience. How about that? We need to be more patient. Okay, so people who are against the church, against the gospel, and against, you know, the things that God would like to see in society, when we see those people, when we hear those people, we get really upset. And I think that that's not God's way. I think that our God is very patient, very merciful to us. He has been merciful to me and personally. So I think as a church, that's what we need to do. We need to just kind of check our attitude and be more Christ-like. How about that? Yeah, there's a mix of sorrow and frustration and indignation that we have to have as we listen to people who don't know Jesus. But ultimately, it's just a sense of compassion and a desire to see them come to know the Lord that we know. Yes. So, Peter, great book. Really appreciate you connecting with me on LinkedIn and introducing me to it. So The Reconciliation of Humanity in Christ. We'll have the link to the book in the show notes. So I'd encourage you all to go pick it up. It's available through Wiffenstock, but it's also available on Amazon.com. I'll put both those links in the title. And Peter, just really appreciate you being here and talking through these concepts with us. Yes, thank you for having me. And it was a pleasure talking to you today and just talking about my book and my experience. Absolutely. All right, everybody. Well, we'll call that an episode. And we will catch you next time on Thinking Christian. Take care, everybody. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Hey, friends, I'm Susan Michael. My podcast, The Out of Zion Show, is now partnering with Life Audio Podcast Network. You know, after decades of travel and study in Israel, I created Out of Zion to bring you a simple, clear, powerful insights about the Bible, Jesus, Israel, and your own walk of faith. Follow Out of Zion on your favorite podcasting app. I can't wait to take this journey with you.