Peter Greer | How Leaders Lose Their Way—and Finish Well Instead

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm your host, Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Peter Greer. He is the CEO and president of Hope International, and he's also the author of a new book, How Leaders Lose Their Way and How to Make Sure It Doesn't Happen to You. And so we're going to be talking a little bit about leadership, about mission drift, about a number of things, the pitfalls that leadership comes with, and I'm excited about this conversation today. Peter, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So tell me a little bit. I know you, you know, I kind of sort of gleaned from the book that you'd done some research on this topic or some, you know, some ancillary topics in the past. So talk about how you came to be passionate about writing this book. Writing a book is kind of a journey, so you've got to kind of want to do this. You're exactly right on that. It is a journey. And I guess the origin of it is over a decade ago that some friends and I wrote a book called Mission Drift, and we really focused on how organizations moved away from their Christ-centeredness and how they moved away from their mission. And we wrote that book and launched it, and over the last 10 years, it has been fascinating to me that I think we missed something really important in that book, because our treatment, our focus was almost entirely on organizations. And I think there were some helpful things that came up and some helpful things, but I think we missed the absolute connection between what happens to organizations and actually what is happening in our hearts. And organizational drift is actually preceded by personal drift. And so you could call this the sequel or maybe more accurately, this might be the prequel of that, of actually saying, how do we drift in our own lives? And again, in recent years, it has broken my heart to see how many leaders had a great start but not a great end. How many leaders we've looked up to that make decisions that cause us to say, what happened? And then very quickly to turn that question, not just what happened in that situation, but, and how do I make sure that doesn't happen to me? How do I make sure that I have a long-term faithfulness in the same direction? And then if there was one moment that really spurred on this project, it was reading a study that said in scripture, one out of three leaders finished well. And the author of that, Robert Clinton, went on to say, and he estimates that that probably is not far off from the same percentage today, that only one in three leaders will finish without egregiously abusing their power position in the way that they lead. And to me, that broke my heart. I want to go three for three. I wanna finish well, and I want those that I care about to finish well. And so those are some of the pieces that really spurred the interest in the subject and said, let's study how leaders lose their way, and then let's get real practical. What would it look like for us to finish well? So I teach on leadership at Wheaton College, and I do an online class on biblical and theological foundations of leadership. And so we don't address like leadership theory or anything like that, but what we try to do is look biblically and sort of draw lessons for leadership out of the biblical text. And one of the things I'm consistently sort of trying to help the students understand is that, you know, when you are leading according to what the Bible is telling you, you're constantly really looking to follow Christ, even if that involves losses. There's not a sense in which the Bible is guaranteeing you a successful leadership career. It's saying you're going to follow Christ, and if you follow Christ to your detriment, you're still going to follow Christ. How does that sort of factor into the way you think about mission drift and leadership? Oh, I think that addresses one of the huge pitfalls, one of the huge issues that I think for a lot of us, we derive our sense of identity from what we do. We get our sense of joy from what we accomplish. And we found consistently those were upstream to minor compromises because if we find our identity in what we do, then it's going to be so intertwined and we're not going to be thinking about next generation leadership. We're not going to be thinking about what we can give away. We're going to think about what can I do in my season in my life to maximize my platform, and what's the operative word in all those sentences? My, my, my. And we're invited, Jesus said, when you pray, what should we pray? Not my kingdom come, right? There's a different orientation. And what trips up so many leaders is this arc, as it's been written, that eventually bends inward. That has, is, and will cause leaders to lose their way when the primary focus is inward as opposed to upward and outward. And so I think this piece of exactly what you said, identity and how we define success and how much of our worth is found in what we do versus actually believing that we are the beloved. Like those things have real-life implications about whether or not we are able to have a long-term faithfulness in the same direction. They're not just questions that are interesting to ponder. They're questions that actually shape our direction. And over time, that inward arc leads us not towards a faithful finish. Do you find, so I've worked as a consultant with particularly higher education institutions, but some also some Christian nonprofits over the years. And one of the things I find, I saw one of two dynamics really, I think I can frame it like this. One were schools who just saw the pragmatic challenges that they were facing and felt forced to sort of compromise, give up some things and move in a different direction or die. Now that either or framing, maybe that's appropriate. Maybe it's not, right? I think in some cases, they were probably right. If they hadn't made a strategic pivot, it's the nice way to say, maybe that's the nice way to say mission drift. I'm not sure. But if they hadn't done that, maybe they would have died. And then other schools who are ardently holding to a particular character and sort of seem willing to go down with the ship and not change at all. As I look at both of those situations and have worked with both of those types of institutions and those type of leaders, really, I see sort of room to move on both sides, right? I think those are polarized ends on a leadership spectrum. And there's some room in the middle to really continue to be missional, make appropriate compromises, not anything that would be a theological conviction or a way of moving. And then also sort of adapt to the moment. How do you think about that within the context of mission drift? You know, how rigid, I guess, is mission drift versus how adaptable is the notion of mission drift? I think that is a great question. And what makes this really difficult is the differentiation between the mission and the methods or the mission and the means. And I would strongly encourage people to have a very clear articulation of mission and in that articulation to say, we would rather shut down than compromise on this, but then to be incredibly open-handed with the ways that you accomplish that mission. And so there are some that would say any change is drift. And I just don't believe that at all. I think that change is necessary and change is required. And so just one practical example is I live in Lancaster County and you know what there still is a thriving business here for? Is horse and buggies. However, in most of the country, if individuals describe their business as horse and buggies versus we're in the transportation business, those lead you to two very different pieces. One keeps you focused on a very small market for a very small number of people, but the other allows you to grow and change over time. And I don't wanna say I'm in horse and buggies. I wanna say I'm in transportation, the equivalent of that in the work that we do. So define your mission and then be understanding that change needs to happen. And I would probably argue the opposite, that change is required for you to accomplish your mission. Change is gonna be required for you to do it. And so I would say there is a strong differentiation between the mission and the method, one hold tightly and the other hold loosely. That's really helpful. And so would you advocate for people to have sort of a personal mission as well? How do you think about that specific aspect of it? I know I've had mission statements done in the past and it is sort of eerie how often it comes up again. Mine is to prod the church to learn to please God together. And it seems like my thought process just sort of pushes me in that direction all the time anyway. And so I think there is something very inherent about it. Like God sort of gives us some sort of proclivities toward moving towards something and articulating that can be really helpful.

So, how do you think about that for especially for leaders, not just having a job and a position and a, you know, whatever, a platform, but actually having a mission? One of the themes in the book is really this idea of drift and currents for organizations and in our life as well. And if you are not, if you, I mean, I grew up in New England. I love being in a canoe. We would do the Allagash whitewater way as kids. And even today, I just love being out on the water. And it is just a happy place for me. But there is one thing that I know for certain is if you stop rowing, you will not stay in the same place. And if you are there and if you do not have the destination that is clear, you are most certainly not going to go there just by haphazardly kind of rowing when you feel like it. And so I think the two things that are necessary, one is to define that destination. What is missional faithfulness? What is the mission? I love that you have that clearly articulated. And then the second is, and do the work. Connect today the decisions that I make, the thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors. Are they in alignment with what I said that mission is for my life? And one really, really helpful way to think about this is, I will never forget being with my grandfather when he passed from this life into eternity and watching the way that his wife, my grandma, grieved in that moment, watching the way that his family celebrated his life. And it was so clear he finished well. Like he really, really did. He finished well. And so maybe prompted by that, maybe this is a little bit, you know, too much of a downer for a podcast today, but like I wrote my eulogy and I read it every year on my birthday. And you know what that does? It clarifies what I say will matter in the end. And then I ask questions. Are the decisions that I'm making in alignment with that? And so whether it's that or whether we're having a mission statement and regularly reflecting on it, I think staying on mission requires knowing what a life of faithfulness looks like. And again, for me, reading my eulogy every day on my birthday, every year on my birthday, that is a simple way to say, am I living in alignment with what I say matters most? Yeah. I mean, so that that is basically if I could summarize what I think you're saying is have something that will keep you away from some of these misguided pursuits that you list in the book. It's a way of reframing and refocusing where you're headed and and constantly making those little course corrections in just the same way. And I love the analogy of the current when you're going down a river and if you're not careful, you end up on the bank real quick. And so you're constantly trying to make course corrections. You just can't fall asleep in the canoe and hope that you'll make it all the way down the river. Like there has to be some activity on your part to keep yourself moving in the right direction and avoid things and all that kind of good stuff. It's a great analogy. So that's sort of the kernel here is. Let's have something that refocuses us and helps us to stay on the right path, on the right trajectory and avoid some of these other misguided pursuits that we could go into. Well summarized, well said. And I think the piece that has been so sobering to me is as we had the privilege of having conversations with leaders that lost their way and shared so vulnerably, transparently, and then doing the research on what can we learn from some of these well-known situations, almost all of them said some version of all of a sudden I realized that dot, dot, dot. But it's never all of a sudden. It is a thousand small decisions and small compromises compounded by time. And so that is one of the pieces. It's like knowing it and then doing it. And again, kind of the case study that we look in the book from a scriptural perspective is King Solomon. He wrote the book of Proverbs. So many of the book of Proverbs are wisdom. And yet you look at his life and it's like you knew, you just didn't do. And again, this is not throwing shade on King Solomon. This is like, and in your life, Peter, where is there a gap between what you say and what you do? And it won't make a big difference today, but you don't do that again and again. So we really wanted to get practical to get concrete. And what are the attitudes and actions that if we don't address them when compounded by time are not going to lead to a place where we want to be. You will never drift to the destination that you want. I guarantee that you're never going to just drift to the right destination. Let me ask you a serious question. 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So when you, you know, when you talk to these leaders and you're having these conversations, just, I know you talk about them in the book and I thought the chapters where you kind of talked about these different misguided pursuits were really significant. What are, what are some of those and how did leaders really articulate, yeah, they realized them all of a sudden, but surely in reflection, they could see the small missteps they made to start moving in these places. And, and what is that? Is that the case? And then how would you recommend for, you know, current leaders to start noticing the smaller missteps as opposed to waiting to realize all of a sudden I was off course. It was one of the most interesting pieces for me and it sobering pieces is that almost everyone thought that it would never happen to them. Almost everyone said, you know, I'm, I'm not going to lose my way. And there was this attitude of exceptionalism. Like I'm the leader. I'm it's, it's not going to happen to me. And I think that actually is one of the most dangerous pieces. And the converse is true. The individuals that did have that long-term knew as I just love the hymn, come thou fount of every blessing. Those words that are famous of prone to wander Lord. I feel it prone to leave the God I love that awareness leads to a seriousness of action that will increase the likelihood that we will pursue where we want to go and who we want to be in the years to come. And so maybe that's step number one is statistically you and I are more likely not to finish well than to finish well. Like that should, that should get our attention. Like statistically, if it's true, more people don't finish well than do finish well. And so believe like prone to wander Lord. I feel it prone to leave the God I love like, so what do we do? And I think that's where, again, hopefully there are some helpful pieces in the book that say, let's have the micro course recalibrations as opposed to waiting for some significant piece down the road. Let's have the minor course correction. And in many ways, I'm not, there are several books and separate resources for people, you know, that this is trying to say, how can you and I make small changes right now to get back on track? And the assumption is we're all drifting. The assumption is we all need that recalibration today in certain parts of our life to pursue that life of faithfulness. So the small, small, small corrections each and every day I find to be the most helpful piece of really having a life that stays on mission and believing, oh, I have, and I am drifting. I just want to see it as early as possible. How do you see? So when I've looked at this topic in the past, one of the things I sort of landed on was accountability. And, you know, accountability can sort of become like that little group you get with and say, you know, what bad things did you do this week and, you know, whatever. And we tend to focus it. I think a lot of times it's been focused on like sexual sin and, you know, the very specific, at least the ones I've been involved with, like, you know, you get men together and that seems to be where we end up gravitating toward or something like that. But I think with leaders, you almost need different layers of accountability there and you need to make sure that they actually have skin in the game. In other words, so that they can be held accountable, that they're not getting to a point where they feel above the law, let's say. That's one question. And then the other side of it is I've always worked as a leader in organizations under an authority, whether that's a board, whether that's a, you know, another.

leader in the organization, how important is that cascade to this, right? Like, you know, an individual leader, a lot of the pastors we see fall, let's say, and I know, I appreciate in your book, you don't necessarily, you're not focused on just those big scandals that we've seen, but it always makes you wonder, why wasn't there a group of people around this person sort of constraining them and saying, hey, you need to get back on track? Why didn't anyone else notice that the canoe was, you know, taking a different direction? So those are sort of my two questions. Like, maybe just talk a little bit more about accountability. I know you had the chapter on the island effect, right? Which sort of prompted my thinking in this direction too. But yeah, just your thoughts on that. Every single one of us needs to be under the authority of something or someone, right? Whether it's a board of directors, whether it's someone, we need it. And the Lord Acton, you know, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. We've seen this, and this is not just for heads of nations. This is heads of departments or heads of organizations. I got a really interesting question from a colleague at Hope International who said, hey, Peter, when was the last time that the board told you no for something? I thought, what a great question. That's a really insightful question. We all need to be under authority. We all need to have that, and I could give several examples of that in there. And I state that as a wonderful thing. The moment that I'm not checked, the moment that we are not checked on something is the moment that we are more likely to be off track and not to have anyone call it on us. But the most helpful thing to me is this idea of constellation mentoring. And I heard about this, and I put into practice in my own life. And if anyone wants to download kind of a form to create their own, you can go to howleaderslosetheirway.com. But in it, it's basically saying, let's look at the relationships that we have as a constellation and change mentoring from this one-on-one model to saying, no, let's think about the full range of relationships that we need in our life. And so it looks at mentoring not as a one-on-one, but what are the areas that we want to learn and grow? And who are the people with intentionality that we have in our life? And then also kind of on the horizontal level, talk about our core four. Who are those people that if it's 3 a.m., you know you call them, and you know they're going to show up? Who are those people that are literally doing life with you? And does your calendar reflect that prioritization? When was the last time you had an opportunity to have a real conversation? And how big is your box of things that you know about yourself but no one else knows? That is a dangerous box. You want to get things out of that box as quickly as possible. And then also thinking about your prayer team, who is actually on the journey with you? And then thinking about who are those individuals that you are pouring into? It's a constellation. And every January, I look at that list, and it has been so helpful. It has been so helpful to just say, I am prone to focus on work. I've got enough going on with my family. I need this level of intentionality to think about these relationships that are so important. And so that's been a change in the way that I've structured my life, and it has made such a dramatic impact. And then all that being said, if there is no honesty, which is on you, if there's no honesty, all those structures, all those relationships really don't matter a whole lot. We researched one well-known, and it kind of broke my heart to hear individuals that thought they were in an accountability group, thought they were doing life together, and had no idea that there was this complete separate part of the individual's life and feel like let down, but also lied to. Like, we wish that they had let us know that they were struggling. We wish that we had been invited in because we would have been friends. We would have been there. And so I think that's maybe a good element for me, how much in my life is not just the relationships and structures, but am I being honest and how much is in that box of known to me but not known to others? That's a dangerous box that we all have. Yeah, and I looked at the constellation mentoring, and I know this is kind of a negative analogy, but it struck me funny when I looked at it. What came to mind was the panopticon, if you're familiar with that. Michel Foucault, he was like a French postmodernist in this really strange guy. But in one of his books, he talks about this construction of a prison that somebody did called the panopticon. And the idea was that at any given moment, the prisoners knew that they could be seen by the guard. And so when I was reading through the constellation mentoring stuff, I was like, that's essentially what this is. There's no time in my life where someone couldn't see what I'm doing and that that would change the way I behave in that moment, right? Just having someone else be aware of what I'm thinking, what I'm doing, how I'm acting, how I'm spending my money, how I'm, you know, all these other things. I need to, like, recognize that there's somebody always watching, and that should curtail some of my behavior. So yeah, that's where my head went with the constellation mentoring, which I thought was a really great concept. I have not heard of that. And as soon as this is over, I'm going to be Googling some images of the panopticon. It's just a cool name too. There we go. It does. It does have a cool name. So I'm interested. I mean, every time I've thought through these issues, right, mission drift, personal drift, you know, the way that sort of power corrupts, I get into this space of how do we distinguish between power and responsibility? And so I've been in positions where my responsibility was to increase enrollment in, you know, a particular program. And so while there's a way to do that that's very easy if you have the collaboration around you, within an organization, oftentimes, you know, one person's goal isn't shared by everyone else. There's an alignment issue. And so you tend to start to play the politics, or there's a temptation to start playing the politics, to start cutting corners, to start ignoring institutional things, right? How do you see within the dynamics of an organization, how do those influence a leader to drift? In other words, they have the responsibility to do X, but their organization is sort of chafing against them. And so they either have to fail in their responsibilities or do things that maybe they shouldn't do. Did you find any of that kind of dynamic? I mean, one of the pieces that, again, this is with a healthy awareness, is we are such master justifiers in our own life. We're so good at it. Like, we're just masterful at it. And again, this relates to kind of all needing people to be in our life and to call us on it. But I think we are, again, coming through this research and study, I have a heightened awareness of my own ability to justify things that I want to do that might not be best in it. And I think one of the antidotes to that, because it's really, again, money, sex, and power, like those have been around for a long time is what have derailed people. And we're really talking about power in this. And so how do we deal with power? And what does it look like for us to use that, steward that well? And it was fascinating. As we started looking at individuals that had lived well, one of the other surprising pieces that we heard again and again is that they intentionally had downward mobility. They intentionally said, I'm in a position of power and I'm going to do actions that are not just good for the organization. Servant leadership is not necessarily just good for the organization. I never thought of it this way, but servant leadership is good for our own heart. There's something powerful about doing acts of service that are unseen by others, except maybe the one who knows us and made us. But there's something powerful in that downward service. So we heard examples of individuals that were these leaders that were known for their faithfulness. And one of the stories that we kept hearing was a specific example of a modern equivalent of them washing feet. And it might be them shining shoes. It might be of them actively going and physically helping every new staff member when they would move. They would show up in that. It might be being the first person to go and clean a latrine within the organization. But there was something about this sense of title to make sure that I don't abuse power. I'm going to intentionally do actions regularly that are going to remind me that as a follower of Jesus, I'm to take the posture of a foot washer, not a king on a throne. And I thought that was beautiful to just hear these really small

all but beautiful examples of people that said, I got a healthy skepticism of what power does to my own heart. And as I check on that, I'm going to regularly clean a latrine or shine shoes or take out the trash or something that's going to remind me, I am not above anyone else. We are in this together. And again, the servant leadership has been proven to be good for organizational culture. I never thought of it in this way, but servant leadership is also good for our heart and our sense of living on mission and on purpose. It's sort of, it seems like it would just take you off the stage. You know, it puts you in the background, which isn't a bad thing for a leader. You know, it reminds you that you're here, yes, to lead, but also to care for others. You don't lose, in other words, your Christian vocation simply because you're occupying a position of leadership within an organization. And one of the fascinating pieces that's directly connected to that was the leaders that finished well disproportionately were focused on the next generation of leaders because they didn't see that as threatening to them. They saw that as part of, hey, I'm only here for a time. My identity is not intertwined with this title that is only interim. And there was an excitement about future leaders. There was an excitement about saying, hey, I don't have to do that. Let me introduce you to someone else that can do that. And limits of self that provided opportunities for others that ended up creating healthier organizations and was part of this, like, just get off the stage sometimes. I was talking to a friend and we were having this conversation of if you have not gone to a conference that you have not been invited to speak at, that should be a blinking red light. Like if you're showing up only in the places where you have a role to play, like warning, warning, warning in that. And to me, it's just like, where are we showing up and just cheering on others in this journey? And especially with leadership, I think it's a good thing to think about. What have I done to say no to opportunity or platform intentionally to celebrate and give that to someone else? That is a good check on our own heart. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. So there's obviously a reciprocal relationship, I would assume, between a leader and the organization, right? And so a good leader can impact an organization in a positive direction. It can draw an organization back from mission drift. But I would also think that my wife works in healthcare and so she's worked at healthcare organizations that really lean into the high-reliability organizational frameworks. So how do we arrange ourselves so that we make it easy for people to make good choices? Kind of that idea. When I oversaw aviation at Moody, they had a very similar thing. Like you build your processes, you build your structures, you arrange your organization so that it's easy for people to make the right decision. Because in those arenas, you don't want to leave people a lot of room to not make right decisions. So how do you see, did you see any correlation between how good leaders sort of made their organizations better and then how leaders who fell had organizations that were drifting as well? Or was it just a more isolated, the leader can drift when the organization isn't and vice versa? In the two-by-two of individual drift and organizational drift, there is a high correlation between leader and organization, right? Those two, there is certainly a correlation there, not exclusively, and it is possible to do others. But to me, the most interesting thing is, how do I not drift and how does the organization not drift? That's the bullseye right there. That's what we're going after, missional fidelity individually as well as organizationally. That is the bullseye. That's what we're going after. And I found it really kind of, I love what you said. If I don't want to eat a ton of chocolate cake, I probably shouldn't always have chocolate cake in my fridge, right? And to me, this is the most important piece. We're trying to say, what are the tools that we can put in our own life that are going to help us? And, you know, one piece that I just never practiced or really thought of until very recently, but fasting. It's not just, I didn't grow up with that as something, but it's good for my soul on that. And I've kind of rediscovered that. And so then what's the structure to put that in place? Well, I can put it on my calendar. You can create structures and I can go on the journey with a couple of others. It's easier when someone else is doing it with you. And you fill in the blank. The same thing for generosity. The same thing for the things that we matter in. And so I don't know, I guess the biggest word looking through this is awareness of how easy it is to lose our way and intentionality of saying, let's make sure that we have the things in place on a daily, weekly, quarterly, and annual. Let's make sure we have the right pieces in place that are going to help us from ourselves, that are going to help us recognize where drift has impacted other individuals that are more godly, more intelligent than I am. How do we learn from those, put pieces in place in our own life and maybe build our own panopticon or whatever the word is that you said. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. So there's obviously a reciprocal relationship, I would assume, between a leader and the organization. And so a good leader can impact an organization in a positive direction. It can draw an organization back from mission drift. But I would also think that my wife works in healthcare. And so she's worked at healthcare organizations that really lean into the high-reliability organizational frameworks. So how do we arrange ourselves so that we make it easy for people to make good choices? Kind of that idea. When I oversaw aviation at Moody, they had a very similar thing. Like you build your processes, you build your structures, you arrange your organization so that it's easy for people to make the right decision. Because in those arenas, you don't want to leave people a lot of room to not make right decisions. So how do you see, did you see any correlation between how good leaders sort of made their organizations better and then how leaders who fell had organizations that were drifting as well? Or was it just a more isolated, the leader can drift when the organization isn't and vice versa? In the two-by-two of individual drift and organizational drift, there is a high correlation between leader and organization, right? There is certainly a correlation there, not exclusively, and it is possible to do others. But to me, the most interesting thing is, how do I not drift and how does the organization not drift? That's the bullseye right there. That's what we're going after. Missional fidelity individually as well as organizationally. That is the bullseye. That's what we're going after. And I found it really kind of, I love what you said, if I don't want to eat a ton of chocolate cake, I probably shouldn't always have chocolate cake in my fridge, right? I mean, and to me, this is the most important piece. We're trying to say, what are the tools that we can put in our own life that are going to help us? And, you know, one piece that I just never practiced or really thought of until very recently, but fasting. It's just, I didn't grow up with that as something, but it's good for my soul on that. And I've kind of rediscovered that. And so then what's the structure to put that in place? Well, I can put it on my calendar. I can, like, you can create structures and I can go on the journey with a couple others. It's easier when someone else is doing it with you. And you fill in the blank. The same thing for generosity. The same thing for the things that we matter. And so I don't know. I guess the biggest word looking through this is awareness of how easy it is

Pushed out of higher ed and came over into a nonprofit organization, like that transition was sort of a reflective time for me. But yeah, I mean, even now, I think it's difficult being involved in entrepreneurial ventures and different things like that to move with the same sort of ambition I did early on in my career. Right. While also, and I would say primarily, demonstrating the sort of character that I feel is commensurate with a person who claims to be a Christian. So good. Yeah. No, well said. Yeah, maybe just echoing that, I find that over time, I hopefully am elevating what Jesus summarized as what it's all about. You wanna summarize all the law and commandments? Here it go. Love God and love your neighbor. And sometimes, if we are going about the goals that we have in a way that actually is not loving of neighbor or is not in alignment, and that hopefully is growing sensitivity that our plans, our goals, our objectives, what we're going after, cannot undermine those pieces of loving God and loving others. And so hopefully having a little bit more awareness and sensitivity to, yeah, you're going after that goal. Do you realize you're crushing the staff right now in that pursuit? And those two should not be able to fit together if we really have our loves in the right prioritization. So I'm still big on, like, yeah, let's go. Let's run. Let's be excellent in the work that we do. And let's make sure we also are keeping what we're told is the summary of it all first and foremost, forefront in our minds. Yeah. Last, we're getting toward the end of the interview here, so I wanted to dive into one other chapter, which is The Need for Speed. I thought that was, like, when I was reading through the table of contents and kind of deciding which chapters to start with. I don't necessarily read them all in order. But The Need for Speed caught my eye because I'm like, that's not what I would have. That is not the title I would have expected in a Mission Drift book. So can you talk about that chapter just a little bit? Yeah, well, that was one of my favorite parts of the research because I did get the opportunity to go in a friend's car that is a performance vehicle that is very different from the vehicle that I drive. And in this vehicle, it was fascinating that when you're in sport mode, it, like, literally, the dashboard blacks out. It literally, everything blacks out. And why? Because the automaker said, your focus has to be on one place and one place only, and it's just the road right in front of you. And I asked the driver as well, I was like, what is it like when you're doing that? He's like, I am not seeing out the side of my peripheral. I have a narrow, the faster I go, the narrower my area of focus is. And I thought, that's a pretty good analogy for all of us. The faster that we go, our ability to see the impact on the people that are closest to us, it goes away. I'm not able to see the impact on my kids and on my spouse. I'm not able to see the impact because I am so focused on my little narrow window of what I'm going after. And that is a dangerous place to be. And as it relates to mission drift, when I'm focused on that, you know what I'm not seeing? I'm not seeing where I actually am. I'm not able to see, am I at a place of health in my relationship with Christ? I'm not able to see, am I a place of health in just even my physical body? Like, no, because I am exclusively focused on that. And I think this is where oftentimes we believe that we're given nine commandments and one suggestion of actual, like, we're supposed to be people that stop, that pause. And part of the gift of that is to look around again. When you slow down, you can look around a little bit more and say, where am I drifting? Where am I off track? And Lord, would you help me to get back on track? And if we're going so fast, we never, ever, ever will have the ability to swivel our head and to actually look around at where we currently are. And that leads us, as we previously shared, all of a sudden, I realized that I was not in a good place, even though there probably were some warning signs along the way. So I'll ask this sort of as the closing question. You know, we've talked about awareness. We've talked about sort of the constellation of accountability. If somebody's listening right now and they're a leader and they're saying, gosh, I don't have any of this. I don't even know where to start. So now I'm aware that I could fail. I'm aware that I'm likely to fail. Right. Where do you think is a good first step for folks beyond awareness, beyond the constellation, beyond some of the things we've mentioned? What are the tip would you give people to say, if you're not doing this, this would be a great thing to consider so that you can avoid mission drift? Oh, I mean, it does relate to a little bit of what we were already talking about. I think you want to take the first step, have an honest conversation with a friend and say, I've got some concerns right now and I would love to be on the journey with you. What a great starting point of that. And isolation is another one of those blinking red lights that we need to pay attention to. So I don't know. First for me, you get one phone call before you end up in jail. Don't make the call when you're in jail. You get one call before you end up in jail. Make that call now and say, I would love to be on the journey and don't be afraid to go first. Say, I got some questions about kind of where I am right now. And I'd just love to go on the journey with you. And my guess is whoever you're sharing with, they got some stuff too. They're going to be on the journey with you. And I don't know. I just think that is such a huge part of this is who are we doing life with and how much are we? Are we brave enough? Are we courageous enough to say I've got some questions. I've got some concerns about how I'm living and I don't know if left unchecked this path that I'm on is going to lead to the place that I want to go. Yeah. Very good. Well, Peter, thanks so much for being on the show. Why don't you give the website one more time and then we'll also include in the show notes, but go ahead and give the website one more time for the book. No, super kind. Yeah. How leaders lose their way.com. And there's a ton. You don't even have to read the book. Like there's a bunch of tools that hopefully are helpful to people that want to put some of these ideas into practice. So just the title of the book, how leaders lose their way.com. Okay. And we'll have the link to this in the show notes. So IVP gives us 20% discount. So if you use the code, if you buy it off IVP press and you use the code, you get it for 20% off. I'd really recommend the book. I enjoyed reading through it. I think it's a fascinating study and I love the shift from organizational mission trip to personal mission drift. I think when I read the introduction, that just really caught my attention. So this has been a fun conversation, man. I really appreciate you being here and yeah, thanks for thanks for the work. It's really insightful and helpful. Both ways. Come on, let's go. Let's finish well. Here we go. Definitely. All right, everybody. We'll check out how leaders lose their way. Click that link in the show notes, follow the show and thanks for sticking with us. We will catch you on the next episode of thinking Christian. Take care, everybody. I just want to take a second to thank the team at life audio for their partnership with us on the thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Has fear stolen your peace? I'm Jennifer Slattery, lead host of the faith over fear podcast, helping you fight your fears and grow your faith. Subscribe at lifeaudio.com.