Jon Hietbrink, Eric Rafferty, and Linson Daniel | Reviving Mission: Discovering God’s Movement in Everyday Life

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined today by three authors. They've written a book called Reviving Mission, Awakening to the Everyday Movement of God. And we have Linson Daniel, John Heatbrink, and Eric Rafferty with us today. I'm going to include some introductions in the bio, so if you want to know more about these guys, go to the episode description and just read through that. But I want to dive into this book because I think it's really important, and I got to read it over the last couple of days and really enjoyed it. And so maybe the first way to start this, and I'll direct the first question to John, what brought the three of you together to end up writing this book in the first place? What was the impetus? Yeah, well, it's great to be here, James. Thanks for having us. And Eric and Linson and I were friends long before we were co-authors. So we were all on staff with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, which is a collegiate ministry. It does work on campuses across the country. And just, we had a real affinity for each other and found ourselves learning from each other and that kind of stuff. And so I think it was kind of in the aftermath of COVID. It was about 2021 that we're like, man, could we ever like create something or write something together? And eventually sort of one thing led to another and then the publishing process sort of went forward. But the stuff that we wrote about was stuff that we were living and practicing for a long, long time before we ever thought about turning it into a book. And, but in a lot of ways, the book was just a product of our friendship and the ways that we were sort of conspiring together to start new things on college campuses and in communities across the country. So. Now you reference in the book, one of you writes, and I don't remember who exactly wrote which chapters. So, but one of you was at Asbury, correct, during the revivals that took place. What was it, about a year, maybe a year and some change ago now? It was exactly two years ago. Actually things were going down on that Asbury. So, yep. And was that you, John? It was. Yeah. Yeah. But the book actually was a, was thought of before that then. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. We had, things with the book were already in motion and then Asbury happened and it felt like, I don't know. It was a profound experience for me personally, for my family. I have a couple of teenage kids. And so watching what God was doing in that space in this moment, we did end up starting the book with the story of Asbury because I think like what God is doing something really unique in that space for the collegiate audience that it felt like tied to the things that we were already planning on writing about and became, you know, the way we talk about it in the book is like a, a sign of a new season that it was like after all the craziness of the sort of, you know, COVID and all the disruptions and all the sort of mess of our institutions in the early part of this decade, felt like it wasn't like everything is sort of magically different, but God started doing, it was like a sign of something new that God was doing. And so ended up being a, I think like a, it was a powerful experience for me personally and something that was like a, it was like something that was pointing to a reality that was on the way. And so ended up starting the book in that space and yeah, it was a delight and an honor to be able to be there and try and put words to our experience that we had on campus there at Asbury. Very cool. Well, one of the things that I found interesting in the book, and I, I'd just like to hear maybe all three of you comment on, but I'll, maybe I'll start with Linson. You talk a little bit about, it kind of recurs throughout the book, cynicism, the cynicism that we can get as we're looking at the church and, and seeing things. You mentioned the rise and fall of Mars Hill a couple of times. I think shiny happy people was, was referenced in there. And so we, we sort of tend to see the darker side of Christianity promoted a bit more in the media and that can cultivate some cynicism, I think, even around revival. And so how did you all think about that? What any, any sort of preliminary or broad thoughts that you could, you could offer to talk about how people maybe experience that cynicism in, in your ministry, but then also how you help them get past it. Yeah, we, I totally agree with that. Like John was saying with so many institutions crumbling, you know, and the church being one of them, um, we, we found, and, you know, being a pastor myself, you know, you're always wondering, you know, you know, if people are going to come to church after the pandemic and, and then social media was creating more and more polarization, um, and people began to see each other, um, in groups, you know, and you're, you're, you're in that group, I'm in this group and that polarization. Um, I think people started to think a certain way about Christians too, and the things that Christians are hoping and believing in. And so whether that's our faith in Jesus Christ or we believe that Christ will renew our society and renew all things in, in, in our world, uh, in that sense of revival, I think just people started to doubt it, you know, and there was a sense that, um, it's not going to happen. And, and so what we realized is when you're in that kind of a space and you're, and you're trying to double down on the fact that Jesus is the way or Jesus is a person to encounter, it, it will sound like you're entrenching yourself in some group and that's going to create more and more cynicism. So the only way that we, not the only way, one way that we realized is the one way to disrupt that is people need to have an encounter with the living God. And what that does is that sparks wonder and wonder subverts cynicism. And so, um, in, in, uh, the Mars Hill podcast, I think it was Mark Cosper, but he even wrote a book. Um, and I, I remember reading through that and he was saying that, you know, we, if we remind ourselves that we live in like an enchanted world, a place where God is always moving and God is always at work. You begin to see the world in a different way. It's less cynical, like things are downhill and things are not going well. And, and, you know, I can't trust my brother or my sister. You begin to say maybe God is at work in the lives of people around me, at my co with my coworkers in my neighborhood, on my kid's soccer team, God might be at work and do I see him? And that begins to spark some wonder. And then in your personal life, you know, like, am I really, um, grasping for everything that could be there for me in my walk with Jesus? And when you start to wonder those things, like God begins to show up and that hunger again will subvert, um, I believe cynicism. Uh, yeah, I mean, I'm sure that the guys could add to that, but yeah, that, that's where we were going at with the book. Yeah. Any, any other comments from Eric or John now on that? Yeah, no, I think, um, even using a word like revival, um, I think felt, uh, you know, we, we even wrestled with, with that, how we want to talk about that. I think we could say that word and 10 different Christians would have 10 different responses and some would, would be like, uh, like not that. Um, and others would be like, heck yeah, revival, but means something totally different than what we're, what we actually are talking about. So we tried to be intentional with that, but I think one of the ways we even talked about the, those postures, right, of like wonder versus cynicism, um, just, I think to, to really even speak to folks who feel cynical of the idea of, of revival or, or to have experienced just a break in trust with the church, you know, for good reasons, right? Not, not just because of them kind of missing something, but because some of the very real, you know, um, yeah, places where the, the, there's been just some, some exposure of, of illegitimate expressions of, of Christianity and the people of Jesus not really looking like Jesus. And that's that, you know, happens a lot of places it has throughout history. But, um, I think at the end of the day to look at this kind of culture of cynicism, of contempt, narcissism, fragility, and to be able to identify that kind of out there, but also in, in here, in us, that we can fall into those same postures and, um, and how much better it is to live with wonder and curiosity and generosity, uh, and resilience

present and moving in the world. And that's just a theological foundation for us that we think that's true no matter where we are. There's never a place we could be where God is not actively at work and present. And if that's true, then we really can live with a lot of wonder and expectancy and curiosity, that even if the thing I'm seeing, I don't fully understand it, if it doesn't represent the sort of stream I come from, that I can expect that God is at work there and I can ask some good questions to see what God is doing and see how he might be inviting me to join in. Yeah. There was one part in the book you all talked a little bit about, and I'm forgetting exactly how you phrased it, but there was a Ghanaian proverb that talked about the old ways being the path to the new ways. And I just really appreciated that aspect of that little chapter where you were talking about that, because I think sometimes, and I'd be interested to get your thoughts on this, as you think through your four E's and I'm going to forget them, so encounter, empower. Now, see, I already missed a couple. Establish and, yeah, this isn't a quiz. It's not a quiz. Good. It's not a quiz. But I think, you know, as I was reading through the book and looking at the four E's, what I started thinking about was the cycle with the book of Judges, right, where you have these times of quasi-genuine repentance, at least, right, followed by, you know, a judge who's coming in and having a spiritual renewal, but then the Israelites tend to get back in the same groove that they were in prior to what they were doing. They weren't going back far enough, in other words. And I think what your four E's really help people realize is that you're constantly having to go back further than you probably want to, to see how all this stuff fits. And you're having to establish and reestablish rhythms of life, recognizing that any rhythm of life you experience is going to be too narrow to encapsulate the entire encounter with God. And this is where you end up getting that wonder and curiosity and the necessity of questioning. And so I just think you guys did a wonderful job of using those four E's to give people a better picture of what this, who we are as Christians. And then ultimately kind of what we do. So I suppose the question in there is just this, you know, modern world, we're doing stuff different now, right? You were writing and thinking about some of these things right after COVID. That was a big disruption of the rhythms of life. But we're not free from those disruptions at this point. I mean, we've got a lot of different things that are sort of pushing in and taking our attention, which was another concept you all raised. How do you think about establishing a rhythm of life that is going to allow for encounter, empowerment, and experience, you know, those other three E's? How do you think about that in this day and age, especially with reference to the church, which feels like we're more distanced from one another than we used to be. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Man, that's such a good question, James. Gosh, where to start with that? I think one of the key things that we start with in the book, and the four E's are kind of sequential, so we started with encounter with God for a very real reason. You could almost think about them like concentric circles. We never leave encounter with God behind. And it does feel like that's super basic, right? I mean, what is the whole Bible about except for different people encountering God in different kinds of spaces? But it's really easy, like you're talking about, to forget that or to assume that the places that we encounter God are really limited. That it's like, we need God in this sort of space or with this kind of community or in this kind of location and to sort of scope where encounter with God happens. But boy, if there's one thing that's true over and over again in the scriptures is God encounters people in very surprising places, often when they are not looking for him. And so I think in my own life, sometimes my experience with God can be very plateaued when I sort of expect to encounter, I limit the places that I can encounter God. So like, well, when I have my quiet time in the morning or when I'm in a worship setting in a church or in a local community. But the testimony of the scriptures is that God is at work everywhere. There is no place where God is not actively working and actively on the move. And that means that every place becomes a potential location for encounter with God. And that all of a sudden blows up my conceptions a little bit and actually opens me to the kind of wonder that Winston was talking about earlier to all kinds of new sorts of experiences. And so there's lots of books out there right now about like, and we're a hundred percent in favor of habits and practices and those kinds of things. But oftentimes they're just very limited to like traditional spiritual disciplines where of course we need to pray. Of course we need to read the Bible, be involved in community with fasting and worship in churches. But also like, what does it look like to look for God in unexpected spaces? And our sense is that in this kind of day, that's one of the key rhythms that we actually long to see reawakened in the church so that we're paying attention to God everywhere in everyday sort of spaces, in ordinary sorts of ways, not just those sort of special moments of the week or whatever, or moments of our day. Yeah. So one of the things, and this is a little bit of a follow up, but just so I think I'm understanding you correctly is you talk about a prayer walk at one point in the book. And I've done prayer walks before, designed prayer walks before. They're super cool. And so what you end up with though, is it is that sort of bounded experience, right? And people tend to treat them like bounded experiences. And so if you want them to be intentional about saying, no, this bounded experience is intended to train you to do this all the time, right? It's supposed to extend beyond that bounded experience because this encounter with God that you're having isn't like, you know, visiting the Grand Canyon and you think, oh my gosh, this is amazing. But on a daily basis, you don't think about the Grand Canyon that much, right? It's only when you're standing right in front of it. God's different than that. We want to see him in those daily spaces. And so is that sort of when, where you're, I don't want to say pushing back, but where your concern with some of the habit formation kind of things would be, is that they become too focused on the habit and not focused enough on moving beyond the habit to something else. Yeah. Yeah. Linden, I mean, you're pastoring now, right? And so how do you, how do you help your congregation sort of walk through these four E's? You know, have you, have you been using this, I guess, practically in your church, you know, as you, as you try to work with congregants? Yeah. I mean, you know, during the COVID pandemic, you know, I remember everything kind of getting shut down, but we, we were, we were constantly doing prayer meetings. You know, you had to do them in Zoom and stuff like that. And I just remember thinking like, I don't know what's going to happen to our church because all of our regular habits have just crumbled, you know? And then I remember, you know, this idea of prayer walking, let's say. We, a couple of us, you know, with our masks and everything, you know, we got into a van and we were like, you know, let's just pray to see if God's at work. And, and, you know, when we were praying, we just felt this sense to just stop at this one coffee shop, you know? And I was like, okay, that feels a little weird. You know, not a lot of people in there. We, anyways, we went in there and it was, it was like one of those like, like, like a franchise. It's not like it's like a specific, you know, cool local shop. It's a franchise like store. And I'm thinking, okay, I don't know what's going to happen in here. We walk in and we meet the owner of that particular, for that particular franchise for that spot. And it ends up being, and I'm Indian-American, so I, I, it ended up being an Indian guy. And I was like, not expecting that. And so we're talking and he was like, man, I don't know why God told us to start this coffee shop. And he's a Christian. And again, I don't meet a lot of Indian Christians. So, and he said

And we had just studied Acts, running into Lydia, you know, we were praying for our moment because we were hoping to plant a church, and I just remember thinking like, I think we met Lydia, you know? And like he, at that moment is when we realized God was at work in a random coffee store in a part of the town that we wanted to reach. And us moving meant that we were working with a God that was moving, and our habits had to match that movement, and it was getting off of like maybe a certain way of praying and moving into a new way of praying. And then, you know, using his coffee shop as a place to study the Bible instead of inviting everyone from the coffee shop to our location, we just started studying the Bible there. And it just started drawing attention and people started to meet us, and we started to meet people in the neighborhood, and before we know and here I am, like, you know, several years later, you know, we have a church planted in that location, you know, with a brand new building and everything. And it all started because we never stopped the, there is a need that we should pray, we should read the scriptures, we should take risk and follow God and be in community, but the way that looked was disrupted, but we never gave up doing that. You gotta keep your people continuing to do these things like you said. It's an ancient thing. We're not like creating something brand new, right? Like we're doing stuff that they did in the Old Testament, what Jesus did, what the disciples did, what Paul did, what the first century church. We're not, we're just repeating what they did, but it looks a little different, like you said, in a modern age, but we got to keep our people at it. And so our habits really matter, you know, and we have to establish those habits, even if it feels like it's in a fresh and new modern way, we got to keep our people at it. And once we do that, I think that's when people really love following Jesus because I'm telling you, the walk, the personal walk with Christ with those folks that came into that coffee shop has forever changed. Like they're like, wow, my God is at work. Like, that was so random. And I, and we walk away thinking, that was so random. Then I was like, is it like, is it random, you know, or was God trying to get us to do that for a long time, you know? And we finally are doing it. And now we're doing that kind of stuff all the time. Like we are running into people all over the metro, the city and meeting people and shaking hands and seeing that God is at work there and exploring what God is doing. And then when you meet someone, empowering them, knowing that they have a gift set and then teaching these habits to people, you know. And what happens is a movement, right? And so, yeah, we've definitely experienced that at our church level, even right now. That's pretty cool. I love that story. I mean, it's, it makes perfect sense for what you're doing in the book. And I think, you know, yeah, it seems random, but it only seems random because we weren't, you know, you weren't, you weren't controlling it, right? Like you weren't, you weren't orchestrating it. So it feels random. Very cool. Let me shift gears a little bit because, and Eric, you'd referenced this, you said, you know, you guys were struggling with whether or not to use the word revival. But I would almost say that mission is the almost the stranger term for me. So when I first approached the book and, you know, IVP had sort of, I'd said, hey, I'd be interested in doing this. Reading the word mission, I was expecting something completely different. I was pleasantly surprised by how you, how you all treated it. So I'm wondering if you can just give us a little bit of an idea of how you thought through that term mission. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it was really, it was those, those are the two words. Like that's what the book is about. Obviously reviving mission, but, but it's revival and mission. And yeah, I think in a lot of ways, those two things can feel like maybe even like opposite ends of a spectrum, you know, or maybe we've got a picture of both of those, that mission is like, let's go hustle and let's go do this stuff. Maybe it's over there in a faraway place. If it's here, it's like, let's kind of grind. And these are the, this is the kind of hustle we're going to do to go, you know, do all of this missional stuff, you know, missional activities. And revival is maybe this like, let's, let's pray. Let's like pray in the building. Let's pray a lot. And, and the idea that these things actually are meant to go together, right? Like the, the, was actually just, just reading today, this morning and being struck by this. And it does feel like these are things that once you see it, you see it everywhere. But that these two ideas were like meant to go together. And there was a phrase you said, Linson early on in the process that it was very theological and I'm not gonna remember what it was, but it was the idea that as we experience personal revival and communal revival, that sends us on lives of mission and we go in lives of mission to see revival happen in the lives of people and places that those can't happen without the other. But I was reading about the life of St. Francis of Assisi and the idea of the, the gifts of the spirit and the fruits of the spirit being things that we need, the internal the internal transformation of the fruit of living a spirit-filled life and the external expression, right. the external working of the power of the spirit in our lives. And thinking about even that being a little bit of a picture of revival and mission, that there's something that happens inside of us that was maybe dead and is coming to life. And then the, that the, the fruit of that is that we live our lives looking for where God is at work and, and living as sent people to join him in those places. So I think that that's really the foundation of, of mission, right? You know, that's like literally what it means is sentness, you know, to be sent. And yeah, I think that, that we, you know, John and I did a master's in missional church movements at Wheaton, which we really appreciated. Definitely, I think, leaned, leaned towards a lot of the, like, here's what you do. You know, here's the steps you take. Here's the kind of the active way you need to live this out. And I think the like, the kind of white hot spiritual center needs to be like a revived life, you know, it needs to be a revived life, life personally. And, and really, like, there's a, there's so many ways we can look at mission going wrong, you know, the colonial expressions of mission, mission that was tied to very tied to politics or towards like one, one country sending missionaries to take over another country. And yeah, I think there's all these ways that it's, it's been done wrong, but like, again, that the reason that we live on mission is that we, that it would be the fruit of mission would be revival and that it would be people being revived. It would be good for the places we're sent to, for the people we're sent to, but it would be reviving for us too, that the experience of living on mission would be something that would give us joy. And I think the Linson story points to that, right? That like the people that got to experience that life on mission and see a little kind of foretaste of revival in a community, that it was good for them. It was reviving for their own lives. They experienced more of the joy of Jesus. So yeah, that, that at the end of the day, these two, these two things go together and they're really good things. They're really good for us. This is, it's good news to live a revived life of mission. James, I'd be curious to know from you, like what was different than what you expected, because that's a, that's a refrain that we've heard pretty consistently from a variety of different folks in different sorts of ways. We were on a different podcast, Eric and I were, and I'll never forget this guy was like, this is the first time that mission has felt like good news to me in like a decade or more. He's a pastor. He's like, man, I thought mission was, you know, it's heavy, full of responsibility, obligation, you know, all the stuff that like Eric is talking about that we have to do. And he's like, man, this, the mission all of a sudden sounds like good news. Mission sounds like revival. And what we mean by revival is actually sort of missional expression, missional acceleration. And the way those things work together, it, it was like, that's how Jesus wants it to be. You know, but it feels like we get that wrong often. So I'd be curious, like, what, what, what would you say about that? Sure. I think the common misconception about mission is what I was hoping you wouldn't do. Right. And so what I would say, the common misconception about mission is that it's something that happens over there, that it looks more like just traditional mission work where the sending is almost disconnected from, or doesn't emanate from emerge out of a changed life. And so you guys got, I'm an old Testament guy, right? So I did my PhD in Old Testament theology. And so for me,

the strict sense of the word sending, right, as in going somewhere else. It's not that our mission shouldn't involve going somewhere, right, and being, you know, landed somewhere, placed somewhere, but it also has to attend to more than just going out and telling people who haven't heard the gospel the gospel. There is more to it than that. It's a, I think, a more total lived experience of mission than a lot of the treatments I've seen. And so those are the aspects that I really appreciated about it. Yeah, that's great, James. You know, I think a lot of us who grew up in the church, I think one of the ways we tried to say it in the book, I probably won't get it exactly right in there, but, you know, missions is something that really unique people do in really unique, right? It's like overseas or in this country, or like, you've got to have a special call to do that sort of thing. And I think mission, like rightly understood in a biblical sense, is something that God does through everyday people in very ordinary sorts of spaces. And that's a fundamentally different thing than like, well, you know, really special people do that, do missions in really, like far flung, unique spaces. It's like, no, mission is something that God is already doing and that we get the chance to join in at my local coffee shop or in my neighborhood or in my kid's school or on the soccer team or whatever. That's really different. And that actually becomes good news, I think, that everybody can play in. So, yeah. No, I agree. And then it happens in community, right? That it's not just, you know, we saw a somewhat helpful, you know, kind of definition of mission around mission assumes a sender, a sent person, a place you're sent to, and a thing you're sent to do. And we're like, oh, that's, there's a lot that's helpful about that. It's not just go do the thing. There's something we learn about who God is as a sending God. And, but also not just a sent person. Like that's pretty rare in scripture that there's just a sent person that's sent to go do this thing. It's almost always communities that are sent together. And I think in our everyday lives, like when a community of people practices some of these habits, right, practices some of these rhythms in a communal way, it really does shape the environment of their community. So at one point in the, maybe it was our first writing retreat together in Texas. Linson said the word, we were talking about that dynamic and he's like, habits create habitats. And we're like, wait a minute, like that's pretty catchy. And then like, oh, actually that now we're seeing that everywhere, right? So the, the, when a community of people practice habits together, it creates a habitat that, that people can see that life looks different there and that relationships feel different. I mean, it's a little, what you described God doing in the people of Israel, any community of Christians is invited to live that, that way that there's ways that we, we practice these habits in a communal way and it shapes a habitat around us and creates these little kind of pockets of the kingdom of God in neighborhoods. And again, that's not just a, you know, you, that's not like, let's go spend a week in this place and create this habitat. That's people living over, over months and years of, of doing life together and practicing habits of of reconciliation and forgiving one another and being generous and sharing the gospel and living just lives and all of that stuff. But that's one of those things. I think that, that once, once Linson said that we're just, we're seeing that everywhere. So I was just, I was in a digging into the the books first and second Samuel and then into first and second Kings and looking at the, the habits that Samuel and the community of prophets practice together and how it shaped, like literally shaped an environment. So you see David like run away and hide from Saul in this little school of the prophets and Ramah. And it's an actual habitat. It's an, it's a spiritual environment that when Saul sends soldiers to come and arrest David, they, they fall down and start to worship and prophesy themselves. Like they literally stepped into an environment that was cultivated through people practicing these habits. And then a few hundred years later, the, the places that Samuel has gone is the same places where the communities of the sons of the prophets that Elijah finds. And I wonder, I would love, I mean, you know, if you, offline, you know, send me a, who I should be reading to dig more into that, that period and, and learn more. But over a pretty tough couple hundred, few hundred years that there's these prophetic communities that survived some really hard things because they just kept practicing these habits together. And, and just again, that like, that's such a, that's a good thing to practice a way of life in community is how we're wired to, to experience life and how we're, how we're wired to experience God together. And I think the world is really hungry for that, you know, to see a community of people practicing these kinds of life giving habits and living a way of life that's different than the culture around us. Even just to looking at something like being not anxious in a world that's like very frantic when a community of people lives that out together, that's a really, really attractive thing. And that's less about what we go and do and tell to people and more about this life that we live in a community in a place and how how that can reveal the kingdom of God to people. So I think people are hungry for that. Linson, were you gonna add something? Oh, you know, I think, you know, this, this might be something that you might be interested in James and maybe those that are listening is, you know, we, we are talking a lot about our practices and our postures, but what the other thing that reviving mission framework does, it helps us, it helps us with our theology, you know, like we are, you know, we're talking a lot of missiology right now, maybe a little bit of ecclesiology, but there's a fundamental theology that runs through this whole book that I think for some Christians and folks listen to your podcast, that by itself is really worth it because it will help you rethink and Reunderstand who the person of God is. Like for us, we've had some pretty insightful moments when writing because it changed how we viewed God. For example, when we talk about encountering God, I don't know if the average Christian knows that God is present everywhere. Like the term omnipresence is like, if we don't understand that, if we don't understand that, we cannot understand that going to your grocery store or walking in a place is a place that God could meet you right there. You know, because we've quarantined God, you know, and then not only that, when we realized that God is on the move, you know, all over the world as and we were borrowing from other theologians that he's the Modus Dei, that, you know, that Modus Dei underpins the idea of Missio Dei, like God is moving and he is, he moves into different people groups, into different spaces, into different communities and no one people group owns God. God cannot be tamed by anyone. And if you're serving a God that is constantly moving and getting to new places, when you encounter him, you will end up being moved by him. And our own personal movement is not something that we should be like, oh, I've got to move to a new job or I've got to move to a new city. If God is provoking that movement, like you're following God into the next thing, you know. And several things, like we've talked about, like he's a God that is of the past, present and future, all simultaneously. So when you walk up to a person, you're not the first time that that person has met God. God has met that person in the past. And are you honoring and understanding that? You know, do you have a, a, a beautiful future that you're praying and contending for, for that person, for that place? Like when you understand that about God, you're not the first time that that person has met God. is one long line of things that God is doing in that person's life. And what happens is you're, you're released from anything like, Oh, like you're like proposing to a girl, like I've got to nail this right now. And if I don't, something's going to fall apart. No, our God's been working in this person's life way before we showed up and he will continue to work after us. And so there's these, there's these moments throughout the book where you start to see God in the fullness of who he is, and you start to fall in love with God as you participate in the mission, you know, because like a missionless Christian actually has a very thin or very, like a very distorted understanding of God, you know? And that I think is another place that we have found people say, wow, like I, my theology is being shaped by understanding this missiology. If I'm making sense, James, you know? It is. You know, and I, I think it sort of leads me to drive into something that we mentioned, but kind of flew past is that idea of attention. I know you guys quoted Willard, love and attention, that idea. What I find when I'm trying to help people understand this, right, um, the way I usually phrase it is, um, we always want to be responding to God from within a situation rather than responding to the situation itself. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or

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Because you just know it's a huge hole. You're going to die if you fall down it. And so you're not afraid of it. Like, it's not going to jump out and get you, but you respect it. And I think that sometimes we get how to respond to God in those moments when we see the immensity of God, right? In our daily moments, though, we lose that immensity. It's almost as if he dissipates, right? I mean, your word was, you know, we quarantine him. But it's almost like once he's not so big and bold right in the front of our vision, he becomes, you know, negligible, marginal in our lives. And so how do we think through? And you don't have to treat it from the area of attention. That's just where I've thought about it the most. But how do we get people to continually attend to God even within those mundane moments of life? What is that, not practice necessarily, but what does that posture look like? How do we understand God so deeply that this just becomes the normal thing that we're doing? It's natural. Does that make sense? Yep. So any of you could take that, but John, you look like you might be mulling it over. I've got two thoughts in my head. I will see if this is what Eric and Linson were thinking about, like a scriptural narrative that comes to mind in that space, James, is Exodus 3, right? So it's Moses living his regular, ordinary life, shepherding sheep, and God, this immense God, right? The great I am, the one who was and is and is to come, does not show up as a bolt of lightning from the sky or a sort of like brooding fire on a mountain in that moment. He shows up somehow as like a fire in a bush, and that bush is not consumed. And Moses is like, what's that? And it's not until, the way the Scripture tells the story is, it's not until Moses turns aside and says, I will go over and see this strange sight, why this bush does not burn up. It actually requires Moses' curiosity, and then God speaks to him from the bush. So God speaks to him initially. He actually like leaves a clue for Moses and shows up in a, now a bush on fire is anything but an ordinary kind of experience, at least in my world. But you think about all the ways that God could have appeared to Moses there. That's a very subtle way, right? It's like if Moses hadn't experienced curiosity, hadn't practiced like, huh, what's that thing? Like, would God have spoken to him, right? We don't really know the answer to that, but I think that's a powerful narrative for us when we think about like, how do we cultivate attention to God in our ordinary everyday lives? Curiosity matters so much in that space. Being open to say, God, what is it? Like when I'm walking into a store, one of the things I try and do, I don't do it every time, but it's like, enter his gates with thanksgiving, the doors that I'm walking through right now. God, come and be present in this space. Help me be aware of what you're doing as I'm walking into the store or I'm walking into this school. Jesus, this is a place that you live. You dwell. You are here at work in this space. Help me to be attentive to what you're doing. And then Eric and Linson, I wonder if you guys want to talk about the sort of, you know, everyday habits and sort of kairos, chronos, all that kind of stuff. So Eric, you want to go? Yeah, yeah. I'll leave the kairos chronos to Linson because he describes that really well. But yeah, I think the helping people who have these big moments with God, maybe it's a conference, maybe it's at a church service, maybe it's, you know, some moment where you've got this encounter, the Grand Canyon sort of moment, that then you walk away from and maybe forget about. Like, I think one of our big roles is just helping people to discern, like, in how am I going to live now in light of what I've experienced of God, you know? So there's a definition of revival that we really loved from the book Longing for Revival that's become kind of common to use in InterVarsity. Revival is a season of breakthroughs in word, deed, and power that ushers in a new normal of kingdom experience and fruitfulness. So we're always asking people, like, what's the new normal that that experience gave you a glimpse of? Because it wasn't just about that experience, right? It wasn't just about this big encounter or this powerful worship time or whatever. There's a way to live into a new normal. And we've been so encouraged to see the way that college students are doing that. You know, there's a lot of stories of these big encounter moments. You know, I think maybe like 2,000 people got baptized at University of Kentucky recently. Like, that was a big encounter. I don't know all that happened there, but there's these big moments. And we were all involved in a conference that happened in Denver last month. And there were some ways that students experienced the presence of God in real tangible ways that was really new for a lot of them. And it's been so exciting to hear since then how they're living in a new normal in light of that. So I got to hear from a few students in Idaho who just experienced that God was with them. Again, such a simple theological idea. God is with us. Like, again, hopefully everybody, every Christian could say that. But what does it mean to actually live in light of that? And through some folks helping disciple those students well, like, all right, how are you going to live in light of that? Their big takeaway was like, if God is with us, we really don't have to be afraid. You know, if we're scared of what people think of us or fearful of rejection, if God is actually with us, then we really don't have to live in fear. So it's just transformed their approach of mission as this, like, scary thing we feel kind of guilty about that we need to go do and has turned into this, like, really joyful thing of going and talking to people in their dorms and not sharing the gospel every second they get, but building relationships, inviting people to Bible studies. But to approach that without fear because of the encounter that they had. Another was at the school in Florida, Indian River State College, where similarly, the students and the InterVarsity staff there just were praying every day for more of the Holy Spirit in their lives and more of the Holy Spirit on the five campuses of Indian River State College. And God did that. So the habit of praying, God, I want more of your spirit, helps people get in the mindset of looking for more of God's spirit, right? And so they had this experience of, like, God is close to us. And I love that the ways that they approached outreach on their campus in light of that wasn't a big kind of campaign or like a really clever idea. It was just this simple idea when they would begin into spiritual conversations with their friends where they would have the InterVarsity table and people would say, what is this? They would just say, we've got this belief that God is actually here, that the Bible says to seek the Lord while he may be found. And we think he may be found right now. Do you want to experience God? And just offer to pray for them. And not every time did that turn into, like, this powerful emotional moment or something. But for those students to believe, like, when I walk around this campus, God is near and I can have the chance to facilitate an encounter with God with someone else. It's been a total game changer for them. So those are the kind of stories, you know, we do host conferences and things that kind of create the big Grand Canyon moment. But what gets us really excited is to see the new normal that people will live in in light of those things. And usually that involves a community of people helping them do that. Usually that involves rhythms of prayer and the kind of relationships where you're encouraging each other and asking the questions of where are you seeing God at work that helps people be in that mindset of always exploring and always expecting to find God already at work and moving around you. Yeah, that's really helpful. Lins and Eric, I kind of like to hear about the kairos and the chronos, but one of the things that Eric just said sort of strikes me is that, you know, as you're talking about the new ways to see God, the new ways to understand God, it strikes me that a lot of what is in the book and then what Eric just said

You know, I understand gravity differently. You know, I understand lactic acid in my muscles differently. You know, I understand all these different things, right? And so, is that a fair representation of what you're talking about when you're saying that new experience of God, that new understanding of who God is? Yeah, you know, and I want to make sure, you know, that people know that we're not saying that we've developed anything new. In fact, we feel like we're doubling down on very old things, like in an ancient way that may have got, like you said, dissipated over time. We're just like, yo, let's just get back to this way of doing things, and if we could do it in the new times that we're in, God might show up in, like, very cool ways. But like you said, a lot of spirituality has a very, like, it's just me in a very still, which we have that too. Contemplative stuff is really good, and we're not, we want that. But, like, some things you just gotta move with God, and you got to trust God. And it's not that you know and have it figured out, that's when you move. It's actually in the moving that you're figuring out who God is. And then he shows up, and then another person finds out who God is, and now there's more of you at work trusting a God that's moving. And like you said, it's really hard to explain to a person that God is good if they have not experienced it. It just feels like I'm just rehashing some Sunday school lessons at someone or just doing a Bible study. But, you know, if the Bible study is provoking an action, go do that action. Like, go do that right now where you're at in your neighborhood with your church folks, you know, and see what happens because now that story will forever be, like, solidified in your heart because of the habit or an action that you took together because we believe that God is moving and God is at work and God is generous. Like, the same, like, power and authority that he gave to us, he wants us to pass it on to others, and it will not dissipate. It won't run out. And so your friend is going to be able to lead other people in Bible study or pray for another person the way you prayed for them, and they're going to experience the other side of that encounter. So they received an encounter. They're like, wow, that was an amazing moment with you praying for me. And you're like, bro, it's not me. That same power now resides in you. And now to be the person to facilitate that encounter for someone else, now you're on both sides of that prayer. You were being prayed for and you're praying for others. So when you start to realize, I am caught up in this great mission of God, this reviving mission of God that I get both am being filled by that and I get to participate in that. I think when Christians really get that, especially in our North American context, it will radically change them, but it will radically change our church when we start to act like that, you know? That kind of ties a little bit into this idea that, you know, one of the things that we uncovered about God is, you know, as we thought about it, like, why, why do we care so much about these habits or why do we have to do them every day? And I think what we realized is God, he has a cadence to a lot of things that he creates. You know, he's got a cadence for all of nature. He's got, you know, the sun comes up and stars go up and the way the planets rotate in the cosmos. But then there's a cadence to the way our systems and our body work, our involuntary things. But then there's a way socially, we know we gotta gather, we gotta be alone, the way we raise our kids. There's so many moments of cadence, the way political orders go up and down. Kings go up and down. It's all done under the watchful eye of God. And he's got a cadence, a drumbeat for everything. And I think when we start to realize that we can't just go to the Grand Canyon and have one moment, that our lives have been designed by God to have these kind of like habits that lock into what God is doing, you know, in his timing in his heaven. So there is going to be a part of our walk with Christ that will feel like it's just matching the days of the week, the chronos, you know, the chronos of every day. I'm just doing it because daily I'm supposed to take up my cross. Daily I'm supposed to love. Daily I'm supposed to forgive. I just have to do that. But then in scripture, there's another kind of timing that God uses, which is kairos. It's the, it's the, that moment that God decides he's ordained for something to happen. You know, I think it was Leonard Ravenhill who said kairos is the opportunity of a lifetime found within the lifetime of that opportunity, meaning that it is only open in that kairos moment. And that's what revival is. Revival is a punctuated season that hits the church that God does something in that season. But I feel like a church that is weak, that has not practiced its chronos habits over and over again. When the kairos opens, we'll be like fumbling around looking for what to do in that moment. But a church that has been practicing these things over and over when God opens heavens to move on the university campus, hit the United States in a specific way, it'll be that church that's going to be like, wow, we are, what I did yesterday is now the outcome has changed because something that God is doing and orchestrating right now. And so that's the suddenly, that's the kairos. And we don't want people to miss that because if you're, don't got your habits in check, you actually could even be the people that make fun of the kairos, you know? You gotta mind up yourself with all these habits, you know? And so the everyday matters and the extraordinary matters in the kingdom of God. And that's what reviving mission calls people to do, you know? Be a part of that every day so that you can be in the fun suddenly moments of God. I hope that makes sense. Yeah, no, it totally does. It's interesting, and we're getting close to time, so I'll say this and then I'll kind of ask a closing question here. But I was just teaching on Jeremiah the other day, and one of the things I said was, you know, Jeremiah is, he holds out hope. There's always hope. You know, there's, you know, the exile is going to be longer than everybody thought it was going to be. There's going to be a remnant that comes out of this, you know, all those kind of things. But one of the comments I made was, you know, you can't assume that Daniel and his friends just got to Babylon and they're like, hey, we should probably figure this out now. Totally. You know, I said, these are probably Israelites who are living in an apostate Judah, right? Who now come into Babylon and just readjust their practices. And they say, well, Judah was apostate. Babylon's no cherry. I'm just going to keep this going and take the opportunities God gives. And so I think your distinction between chronos, that continual cadence that can get a little boring, maybe it doesn't seem like it's working all the time, and oh man, we're not advancing as fast as we could, or, you know, all those things that kind of come into our head and try to push us off that chronos really are what keep us open to the kairos, which I love that way of explaining it. Fantastic stuff, guys. Well, hey, I usually ask my guests one last question, so I'll ask you all this question and you can answer it sort of in tandem or independently. But what do you think the church is missing? What would open the eyes of the church to be more faithful disciples, be and make more faithful disciples, if only we could see it? What are those things the church just isn't doing that we need to be doing? I can go around the Zoom screen if we want, but I'll just pick on somebody unless somebody wants to volunteer. It's like classroom time. Eric, why don't I start with you? Yeah. Yeah, I think that this is something we've talked about a little bit already, but I think curiosity is like really rare and it's such a game changer. So I just think I hate, you know, I think we can all probably resonate with this when there's something we see out in the world that's so off of how God wants things to be, and we look at the church and it looks just the same. It's like, ah, we're supposed to be different than this. And I think contempt, you know, to look at someone different than you, to look at something that's outside of your kind of stream, to look at something that's on the other side of a political divide or whatever and to feel like instant contempt for it. Just, man, when we say this in the book, but when you feel contempt for someone, you will never recognize God at work in that person. When you feel contempt for a place, you will never expect to find God moving in that way. And it just totally cuts us off. And I think contempt is, it's rampant in the culture and it's rampant in the church. And I think curiosity, practices, habits of curiosity, a posture of curiosity to say, I want to ask a question about this and I want to go in, you know, like Moses at the burning bush, I want to go in for a closer look and see what's going on here. Yeah. Yeah, I think

We were talking about it this morning where it's like, it's really easy for me to like draw boundaries on like, and this is relates to what Eric is saying too, God works in this kind of way and in this kind of space, and I get real content and sort of boxed in with like, God fits in this sort of box. And that leads to like, it can often lead to a very sort of stagnant, plateaued spirituality and a like an impotent mission because it's like God only does what I allow him to do. But the nature of like an omnipotent God, a God that is moving past, present, and future, that will make all things new, makes every single day, like this experience right now is an opportunity for us to encounter the God who is moving. When I go out into my local community later this day, that's an opportunity for me to meet the eternal God and to see what he's doing around me. And so if there's one thing that I think the church oftentimes does, I don't think it's just me. We all like to draw little boxes around God does this, God meets me in this place. Here's the kind of people that are in, here's the kind of people that are out. And that, I think that really limits our experience of God and it makes what Linsman was saying earlier, a very sort of flat, like static, fragile sort of spirituality and actually a semi-fragile experience of God where God is like the most resilient being in the universe, right? There is no way we can contain him and being a little more open in my own heart and in our communities to seeing God in fresh sorts of ways, I think there's something in that for the church. Very cool. Yeah, thanks, John. Love that. Linsman, last word. Yeah, I'd say, you know, one thing I'd love to see our church is remember that the gospel has been advancing before us. The gospel will advance after us if the Lord does not come back. We get to be a small part of that. And so don't miss your spot, you know? Like why live this? Why live for your own mission when you can live for his and which will unlock and give you the life with its most abundance, you know? And it's not what they're chasing on TikTok, you know? So God's got something so much better for all those listening right now. Just jump in and participate. You'll be surprised. God's going to meet you there. And in the midst of that, you're going to be so revived and so will everyone in your neighborhood and everyone on your kid's team, soccer teams and everywhere. It's just awesome. Don't miss out. You know, this is your chance. This is your life. You know, don't miss it right now. It's going to keep going even if you don't do nothing, you know? God's going to still do it. But why? Why miss that chance? Jump in now because it's a great, great time to be a part of the church. Well, gentlemen, I appreciate the time today. I appreciate the book and the conversation. This has been great. And just encourage everybody to go out and get Reviving Mission. I'll include the link in the show description. IVP has given us a 20% discount code. So if you go in and get it off the IVP website with the discount code, you can get it for 20% off. Definitely worth a read. Highly recommend it. Love the paradigm. Love this conversation, guys. I really appreciate the thought you put into this. So thanks for being here. Thanks, James. All right, everybody. We will catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Looking for ways to stay positive? Brighten your day with the free Story Behind podcast. Hear weekly short stories that showcase true joy, love, and hope. Listen now at lifeaudio.com or by searching for Story Behind wherever you get your podcasts.