How Should Christians Think about Worship? A Conversation with Ayanda Khumalo, Part 2

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to Thinking Christian and the second part of my interview with Ayunda Kamalu. Ayunda and I have known each other for a long time, and it was a pleasure to catch up with him. So in this part of the episode, we're just going to continue talking about his music, how he thinks about worship, as well as his children's book, the one that he already has out and the one that he has forthcoming. So stick around for the rest of the conversation with Ayunda. If you missed the previous conversation, it is the previous episode on Thinking Christian. So I'd encourage you to go back and have a listen. Enjoy the episode, everybody. Take care. When you're putting together, you know, obviously in a live worship setting, you can talk, right? You can talk in between songs. You can kind of give people little hints as to where you're going, maybe part of what that message is. On an album, you know, even if you did it, there's no guarantee. I mean, it's like writing a book, right? The first chapter should be like the second chapter. You know, they should lead into one another, but there's no guarantee people are actually going to read that. No. And so do you think of it, like when you're putting the album together, you know, obviously you've got some sort of a thematic approach and a broad message you want to pull together. How do you think about that when you sort of have to know that people are going to experience that album in one shot pieces a lot of the time versus just sitting down and listening to the whole thing? Do you, do you plan for both? You know what I'm saying? That's a great question. Yes. Yes, I do. But not, I don't hold strongly to that because each song has to stand alone, but each song has its own particular message. It's like the subcategory within the main theme, and we can go down the rabbit hole in that area. So when you listen to, and that's why I would always, I would always encourage people, and I know it's work, but listen to the whole album. Right. And for any artist worth their salt, and then when they put together an album, a really good musician, listen to the whole album because that's when you get the full picture. When you listen to one song, you just get probably a quarter or a third or a tenth of this picture that they're trying to, this canvas that they've been painting. But you do factor it in when, when you put the project together. And for me, that's what I do do. I always look at it, okay, there's always that thesis at the front and, and there's something that puts the bow on it right at the end. And the way we call it sequencing in the music industry is if you notice it, it's typically the best songs are on the front end. The ones that are like, man, the, the big hits, those songs that people typically, that's what they listen to. Yeah. And they know that there, there are people who won't listen to the whole album, but their hope is if you get hooked on the first three or four songs and you're on a roll, you'll continue to listen to the whole album. Those carry through. So some little, so little secrets, some, some secrets for your listeners and those watching. I'm in it, so I'll say it and it's, it's, you'll find it on Google or on the internet. Sure, yeah. We typically release one or two singles before we release an album. Okay. And those two singles or single typically are on the front end of the album. So we're giving you a taste of what's to come. We, we, we play that song over the course of two to three months. We get you excited. We're like, you're like, wow, I love the song. So when we release the album, the first thing you're looking for is that single. And typically it's at the top, number one, number two, number three, and maybe number four. Yeah. And at that point, we've got you, oh, okay, it's number three. I need to listen. Let me, let me listen to number two, number one and number two to get to my, the song that I like about from this artist. And at that point, if you're liking the first two, we've got you in. And the attention span of today is, it's gone from a couple of minutes to like, they'll always say now the first 10 seconds of a song is make or break. And the first 10 seconds of a song of an album, number one is make or break apart from that single they released. If we don't get people, and that's just industry right now in science. If I don't get the listener in the first 10 seconds, I've lost them. You don't get them. The likelihood of them ever listening to the rest of the project, it may be circumstantial because of a friend. We're like, man, you should have listened to this song. So that's the science. I don't, in as much as it is the, you know, the formula, I don't hold as much so strongly to that because, as I said earlier, whatever God chooses to do with the project, and he is doing it, doing stuff through it, he'll put it in front of the right people. I mean, do you see a lot of other artists doing this? Because I mean, you know, I mean, I listen to a lot of music, right? I follow different, you know, I can think of a handful of albums that I would even want to listen the whole way through. Right. Like sometimes it just feels like they're putting filler into it. But I would say one of the recent ones I've done, Tyler Childers put out a new album that was all, you know, sort of Christian inspired songs. And it was just interesting to listen to. I don't, I, you know, the whole arc of what he did was very cohesive. But, you know, I don't see a lot of artists. Does everybody do it this way? I guess that's my question. Like, or do they just, they just focus on the big hitter? And then if, you know, they're like, ah, whatever, we'll throw this one on. Typically, no, no. A lot of artists are thinking through the whole story and those, and this is the thing. A lot of artists who write music as well, or in the process of creating it or producing or co-producing are deep thinkers. What we typically are, and you know, a lot of people who are big name speakers are introverted. So they're typically deep thinkers. What people think when they're up front is like, well, that's how they are every day. And it's like, no, you're getting them for a snippet and the rest of the time they're, I don't wanna say reclusive, but they're quiet. But as artists, a lot of the artists that people listen to in church music, outside the church, a lot of them are quiet, reclusive people. So we're always thinking, we're always analyzing. We're always breaking down words and semantics. And why does this word, and if I use this word and this word, it's gonna take away the meaning. And you may listen to it and think, oh, that's great. But the message of what I'm trying to communicate in this line gets lost when I take this away. It's like, no, hermeneutics, the Bible, each word matters. And for those with deep thinkers, when we're looking at the whole picture, that word in that song matters to the whole project. And I'm thinking about those things as well. I'm thinking, and it may not make sense, but when I'm constructing a clear, concise story over a whole project, that word does matter. So I wanna just switch back to that initial question, because I get what you do in the album then. So, you know, obviously I go to church a good bit. I listen to a lot of worship singers, right? And some of them are a little more, they're gonna tell me what I'm supposed to be experiencing from upfront. And other ones are gonna, are gonna sort of pepper something in that makes me think. And so how do you approach that? You know, if you were gonna play your album live at your church, let's say, right? Would you add anything in between the songs? Like, how would you think about doing that? You know, to sort of lead people through it in a way that, that helps them experience what you were thinking they would experience. Or do you just sort of leave it ambiguous? Honestly, I think, but this is the beauty for me personally, I would leave it as is. Yeah. And here's why, because in some of the mystery, that's where I think the soul and the mind should need to wrestle. So I'm not going to explain everything.

I'm not even going to explain. I'm going to sing it, and I'll break it just to, you know, lighten the mood. Yeah, yeah, stuff a song after song or whatever, right? Yeah, yeah, that type of stuff, yes. Once or twice, the whole set of 10 songs. But I'm not going to over-explain something. I may allude to, this song means so much to me. Here's why. There is one song, and it's For Your Glory. The lyrics are, all my hurt, all my fears, all my shame and tears, you're using them all for your glory. So that's, like all projects, personal, but that one came from a place of that pain and hurt. But I don't need to explain that because I know there are other people who can testify to that in their own lives. So the song needs to do the work for itself. You know, when someone starts explaining every song and giving you a deep meaning, I just question, I just honestly question, okay, so what did you write? Right. Yeah, did you take the time to shape it so that someone actually gets it but is also challenged by it and there's still a mystery to it that they need to process and wrestle with? So, oh yeah, I'm for leaving it as it is. You need to wrestle with the lyrics, wrestle with the song. Well, dude, I mean, I think that's cool. You know, when I think about a theology of worship, right? I mean, I don't know. I mean, I've read a few, but I think there is a big part of this that lands on the receiver, right? So the person being led would be the better way to say that. The person being led, they've got to be actually engaged. They can't just be going through the motions and it has to be something that they're thinking about and sort of trying to understand as they're doing it almost. You know, there has to be some level of engagement, I would think, because the things that you're talking about, right, it's almost like catching an allusion in the biblical text. You referenced, you know, hermeneutics. And it's like if you read through the Bible and you know the Bible, you'll pick up on these different allusions like New Testament alludes back to the old or even the Old Testament alludes back to an earlier text or something like that. If you're just sort of a casual reader and you're just, you know, sort of, you know, lucky dipping in and reading a couple passages here and there, you miss those things. You actually have to be engaged and understand and like do the work in order to dig through that in the biblical text. And so, you know, scholars help people with that, obviously. And, you know, writers and authors and all that kind of good stuff. But it seems to me that there's an analogy there to what the worship leader is really doing, is they're trying to help people understand and catch these little nuances, not necessarily through explanation like a preacher would or something like that. But from what you're saying, from the way you arrange the entire set and sort of how you're trying to get people to understand and lead them into these different experiences, understand and hear the message well, you know, and kind of really participate in the worship. Is that a fair summary? Well, that is a very fair summary. I say two things, and I said this recently at a conference this past weekend. I was in and I spoke at. The notion or the statement we hear a lot, and I said it because I hear a lot from people who lead worship, musical worship, congregational musical worship. We're here to usher in the presence of God. It sounds so nice. It's so unbiblical. And here's why. Because God says when two or more are gathered, I'll be, I am there. So in no way am I ushering in the presence of God. God will come when we invite him in. And you don't need me or Chris Tomlin or whoever it is for that to happen. We are high priests unto the Lord. God says that. So those who are saved by grace through faith in Christ can invite the Lord in when he's at the door saying, hey, let me in. I'm here. I want to commune with you. So that notion, I'm throwing that out the window. The second thing is this, and I always say this to people who lead congregational gatherings of worship. And primarily my world is through song. Is let the Holy Spirit and the word do the work. Because at the end of the day, that's where the transformative thing happens. So when I'm sitting there and I'm being led by someone who's led by the spirit and the songs were singing are theologically sound, Christocentric, biblically based. I, the one who's partaking with you, have to go back and chew on those songs. You know, songs, good songs are sermons. Yeah. And I'm always encouraging. And I want to write that way. And I'm encouraging people when they lead is when you pick your songs, be intentional about the songs you pick. Because a lot of people, you know what it is today. Most people don't remember the sermon. They may remember one point. One point, or, yeah. Two, if you're lucky. But I'll tell you what to remember. They'll remember that song or the three songs. And they'll be like, oh, I've listened to this on radio. It's on my Spotify playlist. That's what they're consistently listening to that's feeding them. So if in our congregational gatherings, if I'm picking songs that I know are a sermon and they're strong and solid theologically, they can be creative. You know, the form of how the song goes is not even a conversation. But the content of what we're singing is weighty. And I'm not saying, you know, we have to sing the passion in every song in every set. No, I'm not saying that. Right, right. But you get what I'm saying. But if we're going to sing about grace, you know, be right about what that subject is and the lyrics that you're writing and singing. Because that person may, that may be the only time they walk into church. And that could be the only song they'll take away from church. And something may happen later on. But they know that, oh, I heard about grace. I heard about Jesus or whatever subject matter was in the song. And it can pull me back to scripture. And the Holy Spirit can wrestle with the soul with the word in those songs. So it's just when I, and then that's something that I'm most consistently reminded to people. I talk to at conferences and the team here. A song is a sermon. So treat a song like a sermon. Prepare your set like a pastor preparing their sermon. You do that work. Let the work and the spirit do the work for you as well. Well, I'll say, man, I mean, I think this is a cool way to transition into the next topic. I want to talk a little bit about the children's book. But I'll just say this. I mean, I think, you know, life in a sort of a X or Twitter or whatever we're calling it now, sort of culture, right? Where things get real pithy real fast, right? Like you're, you're getting these small packages and little units of like truth. Yep. And there's a, there's a gentleman, Henry Frankfurt, who wrote a book. I won't say the title, but it's, it's on bull. Yep. And it's a philosophy book. And what he argues is that there's a lot that's going on that the truth doesn't really matter anymore. It's all about something being catchy. Yep. Can I make it relevant for you in the moment? And if it's true, if it falls, it doesn't really matter. It just has to capture your attention. It has to be. Now I have to make it important to you, whether it's true or false. And that's the aim of it. And so, I mean, I love the way you're approaching that as saying, yeah, the song should be, it shouldn't be like a dirge where nobody wants to listen to it. Right. But in its catchiness, it can't sacrifice truth. Yes. Because at the end of the day, the sort of hook of it, you know, if it's going to stick with people, you actually want it to be true. Yes. Right. And that's a really difficult thing to do, I think. And the reason I think it kind of pivots us into the children's book. Yeah. I saw at least an early version of your children's book. Yep. Your first one. And what struck me was, you know, this is a really difficult way to convey something true. Right. I mean, I'm used to writing essays, right? You know, like really long, you know, books, like really long nonfiction boring books that, you know, you got to blow the dust off of and that kind of thing. It's almost easier to convey truth that way. You can be extremely complex. You can, you know, you can dive into detail. You can, you know what I'm saying? Like you can really drill into it and give it all this nuance and all this detail. Now, sometimes I suppose the truth could get lost in the details, but I do think that there's something simpler about just sort of putting a lot of words on a page and explaining something as opposed to pulling that back out, understanding the truth of something and then telling a story about it. And so talk to me a little bit about your process. Like for one, why did you do the children's book? And then just a little bit about the process of how you thought about it. Oh, so I think the book also came, I'll say this, like 2019 was one of those years

But there was a lot of trauma and grief going on. And after counseling, I was actually, I was gonna write a book. I was with the creative team and I was like, I felt, man, I wanna write a book on worship. And that's on my mind. And I was like, man, and the creative team around me was like, no, we're hearing you talk a lot. We feel God's calling you to write a book on trauma and we're seeing the little boy in you processing and dealing with this. We think you need to write a book on trauma to children. And I'm like, hold on, this is the first book. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. 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So I sat down with a couple of, you know, Christian clinical psychologists, some of them you know, and I got, I just got perspectives. Hey, you know, this is the way I feel God's calling me and the subject I need to write on. Give me counsel. So give me counsel. I spoke to some authors and publishers in the industry and some people who were in the world. A good, good friend. She was VP of a big Christian publishing house. Gave me counsel and perspective. I spoke to some of the publishing houses, pitching and all that type of stuff, pitching, you know, manuscripts and, and God was just like, the team was like, no, this, this is from your heart to them, to the world and to kids. So the process was, I just took the little boy in me and put him down. And I did research about, you know, when you write for children, especially between the ages of three and 10, you need to get to the point. Yeah. You need to be, you don't have, you don't have 25 pages to hit the main, literally in two, in two pages, you need to hit, you need to present the character, present a situation and then resolve the situation. And the thing with this was, it wasn't resolving a situation with a happy go lucky ending. You read the, the first book and it's available on Amazon. Aya and Abba, it was a boy who experienced the death of his father, goes to the, goes to a river and it's flooded, can't get across to go home. And no, no, no, he's at home. He goes to school, hears the news his dad's passed away and runs home. But on his way home, the river that they typically used to go fishing with his dad is flooded, so he can't get home. There's a storm and he hears a whisper and it's God talking to him. And God's just like, it's going to be okay. But, but in that message, it wasn't like, no, everything's, when you get home, your dad's going to be back and all that. It was just literally God reassuring everything's going to be okay. He gets back home and he tells his mom and siblings that he'd met God at the river and God said it's going to be okay. And that's just the premise of the whole story. And just the words of God saying it's going to be okay is what I wanted children to walk away, walk away with. And we do at the back end, there's a, it's just a short section for the child and whoever the guardian or parent is to actually ask a couple of questions and process this, this theme with the child. Because at the end of the day, one of the things I learned while talking to these counselors is this is a subject that we don't press into with little kids, trauma and grief. As heavy as it is, there are children who are experiencing trauma and grief for various reasons. And it's one way to say there is a God in heaven, God the Father, and he's not here to, you know, take away the pain and restore what was taken away in that moment, but you actually have someone who's going to walk alongside you even through the tears and understands and feels. So it was my, it was one, in one way, it was a personal journey for me because I was like, ah, I don't want this to be this, you know, personal project that I'm going to put out for everyone and it's mine. But God was like, no, I need you to write to children and I need you to write this project to parents or guardians who are navigating this with children. So that was the whole, so the whole process was, you know, getting down, writing, refining, refining, and then sending it to an editor, contracted editor who sifted through everything, did the work, sent it back, then sent it to, had to find an illustrator with a style that I wanted. Right. It took, it took a good, it took a good eight months. But at the end, you know what it is, when you get in physical copy, oh, and so we did, so we, we did that. We did a coloring in version of the book and we also translated it into Spanish. And partnered with a couple of children's ministries that deal with counseling for children. And we were able to get them copies because they also recognized, man, this is such a great tool. It's simple. It's short and sweet, but it helps not just the child processes it, but it helps them walk along someone older to help them think through it and process and ask questions. Yeah. Man, I, I mean, I remember, like I said, I remember seeing the early version. I really liked it. And I think it's a, I think it's awesome that you listened to your creative team. Uh, I mean, it, you know, um, uh, it's, uh, I usually get the opposite feedback. It's like, Oh, I think I'd write, I'd like to write a book for children. And my wife's like, no, you should not. Um, so I think it's awesome. And, um, dude, just multifaceted, multi-talented. It's been awesome to talk with you again. Um, what do you have coming up? I mean, we'll, we'll put the, uh, the album and the book in the show notes so people can link out and buy those. And I'd really recommend people check it out. Um, what do you got coming up that you wanna kind of lead people with? So, um, yeah, I can share this. So working with, so, um, partnership, an amazing, um, feature with Shane and Shane. They have a little surprise coming up for Easter. So I'm excited to be part of that as well. Um, that's just been a joy to, to, to, to get to, to be a part of. And then, uh, you're getting the first scoop. This is the first scoop. I'll say it here before everyone. Um, I've been brought on board to be a creative consultant for a new Christian clothing label. Um, it's called IJ gear in Jesus gear. They're based in the USA and Europe. Um, so they're the ones that actually created like the, my merch for this album. And also we're doing sneakers. So everything's literally ready to go. The websites are there. They're about to do there. They're doing, they've been doing a soft launch testing and I've been able to be part of that creative process with them and kind of just give direction creatively through just all the stuff that they're creating and the sneaker designs. So it's been exciting. So that's, that's a first. You're getting it right here. That's awesome. Um, so that's, those are kind of the things coming up and just, I think just pushing continue just to share the album. Um, that's out. Um, but yeah, those are a couple of things that are in the pipeline. Yeah, that's pretty sweet, man. You're, you're keeping busy. I love it. Well, uh, we'll have a lot of this information in the show notes and, uh, obviously you've got a website, so we'll put that there too. Um, what's the website again, just to make sure we get it right. It's www.theakmusic.akmusic.com. Very cool. All right, man. Well, it's been awesome catching up with you. Thanks so much for being on and thanks for everything you do. Um, it's really cool to see. I mean, we knew each other back in the day sort of at Moody. So it's fantastic to see everything you've done. Uh, I mean, I, I got to watch you in worship for free. I didn't have to pay for it. So I have a feeling next time I come, I'm going to have to, I'm going to have

Appreciate you spending the time with me, and hey, listeners, go check out everything that Ayinda has going on here. We'll put all this stuff in the show notes, but I'd encourage you to check out his music, check out his book, and just watch for everything else he's doing and follow him on his website. So, take care, and we'll catch you on the next episode. Thanks, everybody. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. This, this is my skyship, Dreamer. My cargo is stories, and our destination, dreams. With Abide Sleep Stories for Kids, you can help your children fall asleep fast and learn about God. To find these kids' bedtime stories, go to lifeaudio.com or search your favorite podcast app for Abide Stories for Kids. You can also download the Abide app for more biblical meditations at abide.com.