Reading Ecclesiastes with the Old and New Testaments in Mind with Russ Meek

Hey, everybody, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I am sitting here with Russell L. Meek. I usually call him Russ. Russ and I have known each other for a really long time. We actually co-authored a book together, Trajectories, a gospel-centered introduction to Old Testament theology back in 2018, I think, when that was published. And so now, Russ has got a new book out, Ecclesiastes and the Search for Meaning in an Upside-Down World. And if y'all aren't familiar, I'm kind of an Old Testament guy. I got my PhD in Old Testament theological studies from Trinity. Ecclesiastes is not required reading usually. This is a really specialized area, even within Old Testament studies. And so reading this book was really enlightening for me and helpful. And so Russ and I are going to talk a little bit about that. But before we do, I just thought maybe, Russ, just introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about you, your family, kind of what you do, where you work, that kind of stuff. And then we'll jump into talking about Ecclesiastes. All right, cool. Well, I'm Russ, like you said. I did want to mention, since you brought up Trajectories, I got a royalty payment for that book yesterday, and it was like $18. And so we're gonna go to McDonald's on that. So I'm pretty excited about that. Welcome to the harsh world of authoring books, right? Yeah, you always think you want to do it, and then you're like, wait a minute. So I live in North Idaho, so just south of Canada. You have to call it North Idaho, because if you call it Northern Idaho, people will look at you. It's like a signal, like, you ain't from here, are you? So I live up here with my wife and three sons, Ari, Abel, and Elijah. Abel is named after Abel and the relationship between Genesis and Ecclesiastes, which we'll get into there. I teach Old Testament and Hebrew at William Tennant School of Theology and adjunct at a few other places. And I proofread and copy edit books. So when I was a kid, I said I wanted to teach and read books for a living. And now that I do that, I'm thinking, like, maybe I should have gone back in time and been like, I want to be a billionaire for a living or something like that, you know. Be a billionaire you can teach and read books for a hobby, you know. Yes, exactly, exactly. Well, man, like I said, I love reading the book. I think this is a really fantastic approach. And Ecclesiastes is such sort of a specialized literature. I mean, even as I, you know, kind of read your book and then tried to go out and find additional resources on Ecclesiastes, the way people read it is sort of fairly spread. I mean, there's a wide range of approaches to the book of Ecclesiastes. So can you just give us a little bit of a summary of how you approach it, how you approach the book of Ecclesiastes, and maybe how our listeners could approach it as well? Yeah, so essentially, I think Ecclesiastes is the most Christian book in the whole Old Testament. And I think we go wrong, we've gone wrong in reading it pessimistically, which is one of the, it's like, I mean, you have the two predominant approaches. Like one is like, man, this book is just pessimistic. The guy is saying life is worthless and meaningless. And then the other kind of baptized, more Christian approach is like, everything is meaningless without God. And I think, and that's true. Like everything is meaningless without God. And yet that's not what the book is saying. And so I think that we should, we have to understand well the term translated vanity or meaningless in the book. And that's what the book I wrote is about, is understanding that term. And then once we understand that rightly, we see the book is really this realistic reflection on the way life actually is that then urges us to cope with that life, cope with the difficulties of life through enjoying the gifts of God and living in relationship with him. It's interesting. I mean, I have always, I mean, I suppose I cut my teeth on the pessimistic approach, but it's never really felt right to me, you know? And so you always see these glimpses of it in Ecclesiastes where it's like, well, no, I don't think he's being pessimistic. It feels like there's something else going on here. And so how do you see that? You talk about the Genesis shape of Ecclesiastes in the book, and then obviously connecting Havel and Abel. And so maybe, maybe help us understand that just a little bit. Yeah, sure. So let me back up a little bit to talk about that pessimistic approach a little bit. So the reason I wrote this book at all is because, well, it's like a, it's a popular level version of my dissertation. So basically I was able to take my dissertation and take out everything that is like horrible and boring and just keep like, like, and so my dissertation went from like 300 pages to this book is like 60. So that should tell you something about the whole educational process. But so I started reading Ecclesiastes because I thought it was pessimistic. So I was in seminary. So this is like before I got married, I was doing my master's degree. And just before I went off to seminary, I had a, so like when I was like 12 years old, it was the first time I ever got high. My grandmother passed away and someone was like, Hey, this will help you feel better. And like gave me a joint as a 12 year old, you know? And of course it did make me feel better. And so like, that's kind of the way I learned to cope with difficulty in life was like drugs and alcohol. And so like I graduated to, uh, like in my little like 12 year old brain, like I knew that smoking weed was like wrong, but I did not think that like taking pills was wrong. You know what I mean? So it's like this weird, like, and so I kind of transitioned over to this like stealing medicine. Um, and so, um, so like I had this on again, off again relationship with drugs and alcohol. Um, and then when I was in college, like right before I graduated college, I had this toothache, go to the dentist and he prescribes me a Vicodin for it. And I just like took it. I hadn't been using drugs at that point, but I just like took it without even thinking about it. And then I was like, Whoa, man, that feels really good, you know? And so, um, the, after the surgery was done and my toothache was over, I just like rationed out my pills, you know, and, and started taking them recreationally. And then that led to just, you know, a lot of drug use, uh, and drinking heavily. And so this is like, so I'm going into seminary and in seminary, living this life. And so I had this real sharp like distinction between like my school life and like the rest of my life. And it caused a lot of, caused a lot of anxiety. I was super isolated. This is like a really bad time in life. And it was at this toward the end of that time. Um, I was just like, man, you know, if, if there is a book, a dude, a dude in the, I wrote a book of the Bible who can say life is meaningless, then like, maybe there's hope for me, you know? And so that's why I started reading Ecclesiastes because I was just like at this point where, um, like I didn't really want to quit using drugs, but I also obviously wasn't walking with the Lord faithfully, even though I was like going to seminary and doing the Bible stuff. And, uh, you know, I just, my lifestyle was just antithetical to the gospel. And then, and then one day the Lord just like woke me up in this, like, you know, like literally I woke up from sleeping and, um, was the Lord was just like, you know, spoke to me and was like, Hey, like, you know, my dad was an alcoholic too. And I just remember feeling like, man, my, you know, my dad didn't, didn't, didn't like wake up a morning and say like, man, I want to ruin everybody's life that's close to me. Uh, so I'm just going to become a drunk, you know, it just like happens, um, the way it happened was happening with me and had happened. And so, man, I just felt so convicted, dumped my pills down the toilet, flushed them, you know? Um, and, and then like called some friends in Colorado and was like, Hey, I need help. You know, I, I, I've got to get out of here. Um, and they were like, Hey, come stay with us for a while. Uh, got sober then ended up meeting my wife. And so it was like this whole fun thing, but the, but the point of all that is in the midst of all that, I'm reading Ecclesiastes and because I'm, because I'm thinking this guy is saying life is meaningless. Um, but then I had a professor who said like, you know, I don't think he's actually saying this. I think, you know, this is a reference to Abel and the Cain and Abel narrative. And so there, there are like some French authors who had written on it before and man, my mind was

This book, because like I know that I'm not the only person who is like, struggles with healthy coping mechanisms. And yet here, right here in the Bible is a book that says like, hey, life can be really horrible, but you don't have to like get high to make it through. There's another way, a better way, you know. But I forgot the initial question now. I feel like... No, dude, I mean, that was way better than the question I asked. So I almost find it fascinating. I mean, you know, you go to seminary, like I went to seminary too, and I mean, I chose my dissertation for totally different reasons, but it did grow out of sort of that life setting I was in and the people who had sort of built into me. And so it's sort of awesome to think that there's this book in the Old Testament that even most Old Testament scholars are a little bit, you know, unknowledgeable about. And it has these amazing truths that if we just dig into it and understand it a little bit more, we get so much more out of the full counsel of God than if we just let it sit there and be the pessimistic book that doesn't have much to say to us. And so, I mean, I love that story, bro. That's great. Really awesome. Yeah, I hadn't heard that before. That's cool. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you ended up being an Ecclesiastes expert, almost to prove it wasn't pessimistic. Yeah, that's exactly right, yeah. Because it's not, yeah, and it all like hinges on this word hebel, right, or able or hevel, and how we understand that. And so up until, so you have like these two streams of tradition, right? The Jewish interpretation and the Christian interpretation. And in Jewish interpretation, like the Hebrew term is super broad. Like I like to use the example of bread. So like if we use, we talk about bread today, we could mean like all sorts of things. We could mean money. We could mean donuts. We could mean tortillas. We could mean biscuits, cornbread. I mean, there's like any number of things. But if we talk about, and that's kind of like hebel, a really broad range of meaning. And this is the term usually translated vanity, just for folks who don't know Hebrew. So that's the phrase we're talking about is hebel is usually translated vanity, I think in most English translations. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Thanks, thanks. I can nerd out, you know, and forget. No, so can I. That's how I know to do it. Yeah, so we take this word with a really broad range of meaning, like bread, and it's broad in Hebrew. It's even broad in the Greek translation of the Septuagint. It's broad in the Aramaic Targums, in Arabic interpretations. Every Jewish interpretation keeps a really broad term. But when we get to Jerome, he chooses vanitas, and then that vanitas, like, just dominates translation. And vanitas in Latin is like, it's where we get vanity from. And it's a very short, very small range of meaning. So we take this word bread and we essentially translate it with tortilla. And so we like narrow the range of meaning significantly. So like now when we read tortilla, like we cannot think about donuts or cornbread or biscuits, right? We're only thinking about tortillas. And like that's what's happened with this term is we've taken a word with a really broad range of meaning and translated it with a word with a really narrow range of meaning. And that has kind of led us to interpret the book in a bad way, I think. Because... Well, because vanity always has, generally vanity has a negative connotation. And so you're already off on this foot where, especially in contemporary world, vanity is not something that you strive after, right? And so it already sort of colors the book. Yeah, this is really interesting. I didn't know it came through the Latin, actually. I thought this was just sort of an interpretive choice that we were making because everybody assumed it was pessimistic, but it actually drove through Jerome, vanitas, and then it carried over into vanity. How interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. That's right. So and then it becomes this book in the Catholic tradition, like a long time ago Catholic tradition that is used to advocate for like a monastic lifestyle. So if the world is all vanity, let's withdraw from the world and be monks or whatever and not engage the world because it's all vanity or meaningless. Sorry, Martin Luther comes along and he's like, that's not what it is saying at all, you know? So he and he has a lot of strong words to say. I don't know if you've ever gone to like, if you Google like Martin Luther insult generator, you can like type in stuff and it'll insult you. So anyway, it's not like, it's not safe for work. Like the stuff he says about Ecclesiastes because he's like trying to say like, no, it's not about withdrawing from the world, you know? Yeah, so, so we do get this super pessimistic reading because that word is just dominates the book. I mean, if you, so if you get that wrong, you get the whole thing wrong. It's not like, and I always tell my Hebrew students like, man, don't let me come to your church and hear you preaching like, oh, the Hebrew really means this because I'm always like translators are like way smarter than any of us. And they know way more. And like they do good work. But in this one case, I believe, you know. Well, and there's so many times, you know, I would say this just in defense of translators. Yeah, I, you know, something like Genesis 3.1, right? The serpent was the craftiest animal that the Lord God had made. And it's the word for crafty is arum. And you probably have a wordplay later on in the passage, arumim, with naked. And it's like, how, if you're a translator, are you going to capture that? Right. You really don't, you know, like you can't capture the ambiguity of the term arum, which could be positive or negative. Like you've got to kind of make a choice and then you're never really going to capture the wordplay unless you just get, you know, a situation where the English words also rhyme, right? And so, yeah, I think it's kind of a yeoman's task to do the translations and capturing something like heavil, which does have this really broad sort of range of meaning and almost a, like a whole conceptual world tied to it. Like when you're talking about in terms of Abel, now what you're drawing on is almost this whole story and background and, you know, symbols and concepts that are being loaded into heavil. And it's like, well, what word are we going to use? What do we want to say? Every time it appears, do we put a paragraph in there? Like, you know, how is that going to work? So, yeah, what do you, how do you suggest people really think about, because obviously continuing to use vanity has its problems. Yeah. Is there, is there a way that you would describe this just sort of in short terms that would help people kind of understand what's going on there? Yeah. I think like kind of the easy shortcut would be to even use the word vapor or mist. That's like the connotation that is one of the connotations, just something that's not negative, that's not necessarily negative. Of course, I love the, I think it'd be cool to do able or able-like or ableness. But then again, but if you do that, then I'm, I've been, I'm driving the interpretation, you know what I mean? I do, yeah. Or I like the word injustice or even upside down. But the, the one thing I think we can do that, and that we should do, and this is what the biblical audience had that like we don't, is they're steeped in like a biblical worldview, right? So they understand the book of Genesis. And so when they're reading Ecclesiastes, you know, I go through, there's like, I don't remember how many allusions, but there's like six or more, what I think are really clear allusions to the book of Genesis in Ecclesiastes, right? And so, and it's like obvious when you get down to the word level and the concept level, it's like, yeah, this is definitely drawing on Genesis. And so, like, if for a biblical audience, who's an oral culture, and they're hearing this, like, this is going to be bringing to mind the Genesis context. So like, if we were to put a picture on the screen of like two dogs with a piece of spaghetti or two people with a piece of spaghetti between them, we would probably think of the lady in the tramp. And so, yeah, so you don't even have to have ever seen lady in the tramp to like understand like that image. And so I'd like found the foundational issue is like, man, we've got to have a really high biblical literacy, you know? And so if we can, yeah, I know that's like a really big issue. And so, but if we can get, if we have a lot of entertainment options that, that, you know, biblical audiences didn't have, like they couldn't watch Netflix or, you know, go to a baseball game. And so they're like spending a lot more time reading and studying scripture. And so for them, like the, when you say, when you like paint this picture of a garden setting and are talking about a river that irrigates the crops or.

of the trees and the trees that bear every kind of fruit, like they're immediately thinking of Genesis 1 and 2. And so, like, if there was some way to, like, make ourselves, like, that steeped in the biblical worldview, so that when we read Ecclesiastes, we're like, oh yeah, I know this story. And then we can start asking questions like, why is he, like, you know, why is he talking about Genesis? Why is he referring to Genesis all these different times? And then that helps us then when we get to this word Hevel and say, like, oh, and I mean, even like a footnote that says, like, this is the same name as Abel, you know, that clues us into there might be something else going on here, right? Because then, and even in Ecclesiastes, I don't think that the author is saying, like, is wanting us to translate Abel every time. I think he's wanting us to reflect on some aspect of the Abel story. So he's saying, like, when the fastest runner doesn't always win the race in the place of wickedness, you find righteousness, or in the place of righteousness, you find wickedness, and he says, this is Hevel. He's not saying this is vanity or this is meaningless. He's saying, like, he's saying this reflects what we already know about Abel. Like, bad things happen to good people. And so, like, how do we, like, what do we do now, you know? And so, yeah, if there's some way to get us when we see that that word vanity or meaningless to then go back and think, like, okay, how does this reflect the Cain and Abel story, you know? And I think that's the question you should be asking. No, it's a really good point. I mean, I think, you know, we've lost the ability to identify some of those big, broad biblical patterns. You know, probably the area we do it best in is messianic sort of expectation, messianic prophecy, that kind of area, just because Jesus, right? You know, so people are very interested in that. And so that, but the way we pattern those kind of things is sort of the way we need to pattern the rest of it. And so understanding how these patterns emerge out of the Old Testament and carry over into the new, but even reverberate through the rest of the Old Testament is really crucial. And if we can't, like, sort of train our brains to see it. Um, I was just, I just did a podcast for um Genesis 6, or I'm sorry, Genesis 8, you know, and um it's uh the section where it talks about God remembers Noah and then he sends the wind. And the English translation says the wind. It's like, well, that's the same ruach. That's the same spirit that was over the waters in Genesis 1. And so I think there are certain ways we don't do ourselves any favors by certain translation choices and not making those connections explicit all the time. But I think just in another way, it's like, if we're not catching some of those connections, we're never really going to grasp how these things fit together. And so, uh, I think it's a really important point, man. And, um, it's something that I think we probably would say about most Old Testament books, um, you know, and probably a lot of New Testament books. And so, just for people who don't, um, don't know it well, let's not assume that everybody knows the Cain and Abel story. Um, give us your take. Like, when we look at the Cain and Abel story, you know, there's the basic blocking and tackling of what happened, but what's really going on there? Yeah, so, um, this is, so Abel is, so we have to also, even in reading this story, we have to, we have to keep in mind uh the Pentateuch, or the whole Pentateuch, you know? And so this, this, this covenant that God makes with his people um and where he says, like, hey, he calls Abraham and he's like, look, Abraham, leave your father's house, which is a really big deal in the old, in, in that culture too. It's not just like moving to North Idaho. Um, it is like, you know, leaving everything. Uh, so, um, so he says, like, if you do this, I will give you land. I will give you descendants. I will give you um material blessings, essentially. And then, so we kind of have that promise of blessing. Uh, and then we have in the covenant that God establishes with Israel at Sinai, same sorts of things, like this list of covenant stipulations, like you gotta do this, don't do this. And then if you do all of these things, uh, and then God will give you, essentially, like, land, descendants, money, or material wealth, you know? And so that's the framework for reading the Genesis story. So like people who read, who read Cain and Abel, they're gonna also, hopefully, like in, in the, the book audience, is also gonna know the rest of the story too, right? Um, and so when you read Cain and Abel, you see, okay, you're primed to be thinking, all right, Abel is bringing a sacrifice to the Lord. It's the best of his, of his uh of his flocks, right? And he's bringing the best portion. Um, and then Cain, it says he just brings some of the fruit, right? And so the issue there that isn't um the type of sacrifice. It's not It's like, so, like, one interpretation is like, oh, well, Cain brought, brought uh produce and God only accepts blood. But, like, that's not true. Like, there are grain offerings and all of that. The issue there is like that Abel brings like an appropriate sacrifice, the best to the Lord. Cain just brings some, just something, you know, just kind of half-heartedly does it. Uh, God accepts Cain's offering. He rejects, sorry, God accepts Abel's, rejects Cain's. And again, we're thinking, yeah, this is how it's supposed to be, right? But then, straight away, Cain, like, gets really angry, and again, and then God goes to him. Like, this is amazing to me. God goes to him and says, like, why are you so mad? If you don't, if you do what's right, you'll be accepted, you know? And then Cain hardens his heart, uh, just like the people in the wilderness hardened their hearts, and murders Abel. And like, that is where the original audience, like, if you're thinking, like, okay, like, it's a big, uh, it causes a lot of cognitive dissonance because if you're like, wait a minute, if you're bringing the best offering to God and doing what God wants, you should not get murdered. Right, right. You thought this was supposed to turn out a little different for Abel. Like, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then, um, and then, like, to add insult to injury here, to make matters worse or whatever, God puts a market protection on Cain, and Cain goes on to, like, go and have descendants and found a city, and I'm assuming he became wealthy, uh, wealthy enough at least to have a

to take care of a large family and found a city. And so, it's not just this like, it's not just a story about fratricide or killing your brother. I think it's a story about seeing that life doesn't always go the way we expect it to go. Even knowing the promises of blessing, even knowing what God has gave to Abraham and the promise to give to Abraham, it's like, man, this is not the way it's supposed to be. Like, Abel is not supposed to die. Cain is supposed to suffer the punishment, you know. Cain is supposed to be cursed, and yet he's not, and he's even given a mark of protection, you know. And of course, he is exiled, and so there is like punishment there for sure. But it's the first example, and of course, in Genesis 4, so it's early on, of a life, or the world turned upside down, or the failure of retribution, the retribution principle. And I think it's a powerful story because we experience this in our lives, right? Like, we see, you know, I talk about my dad, I mentioned my dad, he was like an alcoholic and a serial adulterer or just a general, like, not a good person. My grandmother is this, like, salt of the earth lady who was twice widowed, you know, raised me pretty much. I lived like a block away. Just like a really good, godly woman who cared for the poor and just did all the things that you think a Christian would do. And they both died in their 60 years old. And like as a kid, I can remember looking at that and thinking, like, how come she gets 60 years and he gets 60 years? Like, that's not, like, that shouldn't be that way, you know? And so it's this story right here in Genesis 4 of, like, sometimes things don't turn out the way that we expect it to go or the way that they should, really. And that is all part of God's mysterious universe, you know? So there's like a lot going on in that story. And so that's what we have to have in mind when we start to read Ecclesiastes, and it's saying it also is listing all of these situations, like, where things don't work out the way they're supposed to be. And it's like, oh yeah, and this too is able. Oh yeah, that's able. That's able. That's able. You know, and so he's listing off these similar type experiences in life. Does he ever get to Seth? I mean, you know, as we look at that Cain and Abel narrative, right? You know, and I agree with everything you said on Cain and Abel. The way I've always read it, the sort of wrinkle I throw in is, I think a lot of people read it as Cain being jealous of Abel. My tendency is to see it as, and this is largely because of Seth, my tendency is to see it as Cain wants to worship God the way he wants to worship God. And so by eliminating Abel as an option, God is also out of options. You can either take my sacrifice or not, but now, you know, I put you in a corner and I'm the only one left to give you sacrifice, so take it or leave it, kind of vibe. And God's like, well, not really. I'm going to banish you and then give them a replacement for Abel. And so now I fixed the whole problem, kind of. It still doesn't negate that. I think the, this is Abel, like almost reading that refrain in Ecclesiastes, this is Abel, this is Abel, as a reference back to this unjust or, I think you put it well, upside down treatment of Abel is really interesting, but then also seeing this sort of Seth moment where it's like, oh, God's never in a box. He's always working. He's continuing to redeem. Like, this is sort of the ray of hope so that we're not just left with Abel's a breath, you know, and he's gone. Does Ecclesiastes ever get to that Seth moment? Does he reference Seth? Do you see Seth in Ecclesiastes at all? Yeah, I don't know. There are, there is a, so Radisa Antic wrote an article years and years ago where it called like Cain, Abel, Seth and the meaning of Heavenly Ecclesiastes or something like that. So he sees like a Seth reference in the, I think it's Ecclesiastes 4 where you have like the two youth or the, and then like another one rises up and becomes king or something like that. I can't remember exactly what it is, but yeah, so he, he sees that. I haven't spent a whole ton of time thinking about the Seth option. That's really interesting though. It's good. Yeah. I love the idea though, man, of reading. I mean, just before we got on the, got on this interview, I decided to read through Ecclesiastes anyway. And so, I mean, in my head, I've just got all these, this is vanity, this is vanity, this is vanity. And now sort of reframing in my head and actually reading it as this is Abel, this is Abel, this is Abel. It's like, oh yeah, that makes so much more sense. Just having that story, rehearsing that story as you're reading it has so much more power for what Ecclesiastes is actually talking about. Well, and I, what else, like, so, you know, in the, in the book, you're, you deal with the Genesis background, which I think we kind of cover to a large extent as much as we're going to dig into it in the, you know, 45 minutes. Where does Ecclesiastes really take us, right? Like, what, what is his point, right? So all this life is meaningless. You kind of referred to, hey, you know, let's just enjoy everything that God has given us, enjoy the gifts that God has given us. Is that where he sort of ends it? Or is there more that we should see there? Yeah, I think there's more. And so I think his, so I think his framework is life is like Abel. We live and we experience suffering and injustice. And, you know, it's terrible. But the kind of pathway through that is twofold, fearing God and keeping his commandments. Like, so the, the book ends with this statement, all has been heard. The whole of humanity is fear God and keep his commandments. Okay. So that is like a huge, a huge piece of the puzzle. And like in that, first, first is in a lot of translations will say the whole duty of man is fear God and keep his commandments. That's not what it says in Hebrew. It says kol ha-dam, all of the man or all of humanity. And so I think, and I think that's intentional. And I think he's intentionally, he's not saying the whole duty of man. I think he's saying like the whole, like what it means to be a human being is to live in relationship with God. And so that, and that fear, fear God and keep his commandments is like shorthand in wisdom literature for having a relationship with God, right? And so I think what he's saying is, first of all, in spite of all of the kind of upside down life experiences we have, what it means to be a human being is to have a relationship with God. And so that has to characterize and frame our whole lives, is living in a relationship with him. And then now that we're in this relationship with God, who is a good father, who gives good things to those who love him, who is trustworthy and kind and generous, when he gives us things, and Ecclesiastes like six, it says six carpe diem or seize the day passages where he says, enjoy food, work, wine, and a spouse, right? And so these are all brief gifts. Like we don't have them forever. A meal only lasts as long as the meal. Your spouse might die, right? People come and go out of our lives, but he's painting this picture. I think that if we're in the midst of this world, this upside down, able, able characterized world, we on the one hand, live in a relationship with God. And on the second, on the other hand, we look back to Eden where they had food and relationships and work that was meaningful. And we, when we can engage in those things, work and time with one another in that, then we can kind of grasp hold of Eden. But then as new covenant believers who know that Jesus comes and dies and makes a way for us to have an even closer relationship with God and the spirit lives within us, we also like look forward to the marriage supper of the lamb, right? Where we will be feasting and enjoying relationship with God and with one another. So I think Ecclesiastes kind of stands in the middle and says like, okay, look back to Eden and look forward to the marriage supper of the lamb. And while you're on earth, here are some ways that you can kind of grab hold of heaven while you're here. And that is through like eating, drinking, working, and being with people that you love, you know? And so that's why I say it's the most Christian book of the Old Testament because it gives us this framework for a apologetic for the Christian faith. That's like really, really compelling, you know? But Christianity is not about don't drink, smoke or chew or go with girls who do. It's not even about like, hey, you shouldn't, you know, swallow opiates every day to make yourself feel better. Like you shouldn't do those things. But what it's about is a vision of life that is full of really good things that God gives us. And so, and the other really

Can enjoy food and can enjoy work. It doesn't matter if you are, you know, running the Moody summer or swinging a hammer. Like both of those things, like if we can enjoy the things that we do, like that matters, right? And like that's the gift. The gift isn't the job or the title or the money. The gift is like the pleasure of doing the thing, you know? Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. That's actually embedded in the thing. I think there's real sort of wisdom in that because one of the things that I've noticed, especially in studying Deuteronomy, let's say, you know, Deuteronomy 8 talks about God warns the people not to go into the land and, you know, enjoy the cisterns they didn't dig and live in houses they didn't build and all these great, you know, wonderful things he's going to give them in the land. And he basically tells them, listen, don't forget the one who gave them to you. Don't forget that because that's the, like acknowledging me and having these things with me is the key, right? Having them without me is like, eh, right? But having them with me is like the thing. And so one thing I wanted to kind of circle back to, you know, fear God and keep his commandments, right? That idea of fear of the Lord is another one that I think people may be, may have an intuitive sense of what it is, right? But it isn't like our normal language. We don't want to kind of be like, hey, I hope you've been fearing God today, right? Like that's, you know, we usually tend toward let's follow Jesus or let's love one another, you know, but like fear of the Lord is not regular language for us anymore. And so will you just speak a little bit about that? You said, you know, in the wisdom literature, that's kind of shorthand, right? It conveys this very particular thing. You already kind of covered some of the covenant, which I think is important background for that statement, but how else would, how would you really, you know, just shorthand explain that to folks? Gosh, I get asked this question all the time and it's so hard for me to answer. You'd think I would come up with like a really good answer by now, but I don't have one. I'm glad I'm, I'm glad I'm piling on. So, all right. So I think it's relational. Like, so it's, it's hard. It's hard for me to understand because I didn't have like a good, healthy relationship with my dad. And I think that, I think a parent-child relationship is the best depiction of this because we learn from our parents, hopefully that they love us. They like, they give us food. They give us clothing in a perfect world, right? They should give us food. They should give us clothing. They should keep us from running out into the street and they should also discipline us, right? And so whenever we do things that we are not supposed to do in Arkansas, where I grew up, you got a whooping, and my grandmother actually like made a paddle for me that said for use on rusty when needed and like made me like, like take it, like take it with me and stuff. So when we think about fearing God, we need to think about it in like that kind of relational context. It is a understanding that God loves us, has our best interests in mind. And because of that, we should do what he says. But then also we know that like he can and will discipline his children. And so there is this kind of like a both and like both, there are good things to being in relationship with him. Like now my kids are six, six and eight and like, they really don't like getting in trouble because, um, like they don't like to go to timeout. They also like, don't like not being close to me. Right. You know what I mean? So if there's this kind of reach in the relationship, like they want that to be better, um, intuitively, you know? And so there's like that. Um, and then, so the, the goodness of God and the relationship on one hand, and then the other hand, the like kind of fear of punishment, um, which like, I know that's not like necessarily the best motivator, but I think it can be a good motivator. And so I remember whenever, um, so I had not been using drugs for like years at this point. Um, I, I had, my oldest son was born and I got super sick and went to the doctor and I was like coughing and just like really, you know, sick. So I tell the doctor like, Hey, I have a history of like opiate abuse. Like, don't give me anything with like, like, if I have to just suffer through it, that's fine. I can't take anything with like codeine or anything like that in it. And so the doctor's like, okay, that's fine. And then he writes me a prescription for, uh, cough medicine with codeine in it. And so I'm like sitting there on like he leaves and then I'm like sitting there on the edge of the bench or, you know, bed or whatever it is in the doctor's office. And like sweat is like literally coming off of my forehead because I'm like sitting here looking at this thinking like, it would feel so good to get high. Like I could just go get this prescription filled. I wouldn't even have to tell my wife. I could just take it. Like nobody would know. And I'm like, just tore up on the inside thinking about this. And then I remember like, dude, I have a wife now. I have a son. Um, I have a job for crying out loud. There are all these good things God has given me. And the like fleeting pleasure of getting high is so costly. Like God could take all of these things away from me. God could even kill me for turning my back on his like goodness and rescue of me from this sin. And so like I didn't fill the prescription. I like, you know, call my wife, tell her, Hey, the doctor gave me this and then, you know, and so I didn't fill it. But the reason was not because like, Oh man, I'm so spiritual and had this overwhelming love for God. The reason was like, I didn't want to lose the good things God had given me. So like, so that like fear of God's discipline, like what kept me from sin in that moment, you know? And, and I mean, ideally it would have been like the other way around. Like, man, I love God so much. How can I turn away from him? But that's not where I was at that point, you know? So it was like a really good thing to know that God could discipline me, you know? It's interesting, man. I, because I've, I've thought a lot about the fear of the Lord. And the one thing I've ran across recently is out of cognitive psychology and they do this stuff called relevance realization. So the idea is that like, if I need a mode of transportation, I go out in my garage and I see a bicycle, but I don't, I don't know how to ride a bicycle. That's completely irrelevant mode of transportation for me. Right. It just doesn't factor into my decisions anymore because I can't ride it even if, even if it's the only, I know it's a mode of transportation, it's just not a mode of transportation for me. Right. And so as I started reading through some of that, like relevance realization thing, even the story you just told, it's like, what if fear of the Lord is about a deep abiding awareness that God is infinitely more relevant than anything else in our lives. And so what you have is you have both sides of that included in the relevance aspect, right. In that, you know, there's nothing that you could do that would be better than following God's ways. And if you choose those, there are probably going to be negative consequences that come along with that because a, it's just not as good. Right. And B, there will be consequences. Right. But then you look at it the other way and you're like, yeah, but if God is infinitely more relevant than anything else in my, you know, any other situation I may be facing, following him makes perfect sense because that's always going to be my best move. Like this is the strategy you just can't get away from. And so, yeah, I mean, I think your story kind of reinforces that for me. It's like, you know, you're both sides of God, right? The blessing and the consequences, right. Factor into this idea of what it is to fear the Lord. And it really is highlighting, look, God's superiority, God's infinite relevance to us in any given moment is just so surpassing anything else that it doesn't make any sense to opt in to anything but him,

Whereas other things might not. Right, right. That's really good. Well, bro, any, any last words on Ecclesiastes? We're kind of getting to the, the end of our time here, but what would you say, maybe this question, I've got in my head, how, you know, you talk about biblical literacy. We've talked about a little bit of patterns. We talked about Havel in Ecclesiastes, and that probably gives people a pretty good framework to read it. But any other suggestions on how people can really access this book and understand it really, really well? Obviously buying Ecclesiastes and the Search for Meaning in an Upside Down Life from Amazon.com by Russell L Meek would help. But anything outside of that, like how do you, how would you suggest somebody to approach the book of Ecclesiastes? Yeah, so I think the biggest thing is as much as possible breaking out of that pessimistic understanding of it. Even if you just say like vapor or mist, which is the, you know, the connotation of the word. If there's, if just try as much as possible to read the book, not pessimistically, you know, but rather as a reflection on life as we experience, you know, so real, so a realistic reading of the book rather than a pessimistic reading of the book. Very cool, man. Well, is there, are there other places you want people, where, where can people find you? I mean, I know your book is available on Amazon. Is it available at other places? You just got it up on Amazon? It should be everywhere. I mean, well, not everywhere, but like, you know, all the, all the places. All the, all the normal spots. Yeah. So it's Ecclesiastes and the Search for Meaning in an Upside Down World by Russell Meek. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. So if you're interested in buying the book, which I would definitely encourage, you can check it out there. Anywhere else folks can find you, man? Do you have a, you have a website you want to plug or anything like that? Yeah, I have a website, russmeek.com that I share my like dorky nerd academic writings and try to write stuff that is more for like everyday people as well, focusing on how to, how to live the Old Testament. Nice. Well, we'll, we'll link that in the show notes as well. So everybody definitely a guy whose writing is worth knowing and Russ, really appreciate you taking the time to be on today, man. This was great to catch up with you a little bit and just have a conversation with another Old Testament geek. Yeah, man. Thanks for having me. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for tuning in to Thinking Christian this week. Check out Russ's book and we'll catch you next time on the next episode. Take care. Want to take just a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you will find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Life Audio. Want to learn more about God and His will for your life one verse at a time? I'm Quinice Petway, co-host of the Your Daily Bible Verse podcast. I'm inviting you to tune in and subscribe at lifeaudio.com.