How Can Christians Think about Politics and Culture?

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined by Nate Gartantano. And we're going to be looking at this June 6, 2024 report from Pew Research. This is on the Pew Research Center, and it's on cultural issues and the 2024 election. These are really interesting because they are, there's a variety of issues treated. I mean, it's a wide array of topics. We're not going to cover them all in this episode, though. We're hoping to do some follow-up episodes where we look at each one of these individually. But ultimately, what we want to try to do is sort of frame out some ways in which we can think Christian about these various cultural challenges, these cultural issues that really face us as we vote. So that's what we're planning to do on the episode today. And Nate, welcome to the program, man. Yeah, thanks for having me, man. I'm excited to dive into some of this with you. I love talking about and thinking about culture just because it affects all of us, whether you admit it or not. Everybody has, you know, different backgrounds, different ways of thinking, different ways of life, how we grew up, how we didn't grow up. So it'll be interesting to jump into some of these. Yeah, and these are touchy subjects, right? I mean, we've got a number of, if you look at the data, the difference between, and this is just the way the Pew Research Center divided the data, but the difference between Biden supporters and Trump supporters in some of these instances is actually quite large. These different cultural issues, and those include things like gun ownership, the legacy of slavery, American openness to people all over the world, so immigration type issues, sexual identity, gender identity, those kind of challenges, criminal justice system and whether or not it's tough enough on criminals, all those different kind of areas are addressed in this Pew Research study. And so as we discuss these, it can get a little bit tenuous, right? A little bit tense, we might say. Yeah, when I looked at the list, I was like, well, this is a perfect list of what a lot of Christians don't want to talk about because they don't want to say the wrong thing. You know, because like I was sharing with you offline earlier, you're going to tick someone off one way or the other. If you make a stance on something and say something, and so I think a lot of people, myself included at times, especially on social media, I don't engage in some of these conversations just because I've just seen the effects of it. Whether you stand one way or the other, you're going to, it's polarizing, you know? So I'm actually glad that we're having this conversation. I need to be stretched this way and kind of hopefully learn from it myself. It is polarizing, and I would say I've been thinking an awful lot about biblical decision-making lately. And one of the things that I've come to is this. The Bible doesn't give us sure guidelines with regard to decision-making on very specific issues. Now, it certainly gives us guidance. It gives us counsel. It provides us with wisdom. But the Bible is not going to tell us exactly what to do about immigration at the southern border. It's not going to tell us exactly what to think about gun ownership and how, whether or not that is going to protect us more or less than curtailing gun ownership. These were not issues necessarily prominent or even possible in the times when the Bible was written. These are unique issues unique to us. Absolutely. Yeah, this day and age, things have certainly changed. I feel like things have changed dramatically even in the last five years. It seems like it. And I think that post-COVID, and nobody really wants to think back on COVID, but the reality is that COVID did a number on our society. And I think that COVID, one of the things that maybe it did that we don't often think about is that it eroded a lot of trust. It eroded a lot of conversation. And it created sides, you know, whether you were pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine, whether you got the vaccine or you didn't, whether you wore a mask as a sign of respect for other people in society or because you thought it would curtail spreading COVID or keep you from getting it, one of the two, or whether you didn't do it because you were making a statement about how you felt the government shouldn't be intruding on your individual rights. There are all these different issues that happened during COVID that really demonstrate, I think, the difficulty of making decisions in a complex situation where the Bible doesn't give us necessarily specific guidance on here's exactly what you need to do. Right. No, totally. And I feel like we were already very divided and there was already tons of division on all these different issues. But after 2020, I think it just magnified that division. And it's like you felt like you had to choose one side or the other with these things. I still see people lose their minds if they see someone with a mask on, especially if they're in the car by themselves. And I'm like, but does it really bother? Does it really matter to you that much? Like, how does that affect you? Like, sure, it's funny. Like, but I just think it's funny that people are so hung up on that still. And it's been four years. It's like, OK, we talk about something else. It's almost as if we've symbolized it, you know, so that now wearing a mask can't just be an innocent act of wearing a mask. Someone maybe has too much anxiety or maybe they have some sort of completely unrelated illness. I can remember flying through airports and seeing a lot of people from Asia wearing masks even before COVID. And so maybe there are cultural matters that need to be taken into account. But the point is that post-COVID, when we see someone with a mask, we see it as something of a symbol. Yeah, like it is. Right. They're making some sort of statement about their political beliefs and their orientation to life. And it really does speak to the divisions that we've created and the tensions that we have allowed to permeate our society. Yep. And just to take that one step further, I know that it has gotten like all the way across the board because I've even heard stand up comics or people like online saying, you're the type of person that would wear a mask, you know, in the shower or in the car by yourself. Like it it's become such a common thing as, you know, divider for us or like you said, an identifier. Just because you're wearing a mask, that doesn't mean like that you have this stance on the X, Y or Z. But it is interesting how, I mean, we've all been guilty of it, I'm sure at times. You just think of that in your own head. But how did we get there? You know, how did we all as a society? It's just like that's blanket now. That's just there. And it's really not moved in the last four years. So it's very interesting to me. Well, I think it's interesting. I mean, the Pew study, and we'll link to it in the show description, but the Pew study actually talks about a lot of the topics that are addressed within the Pew study as being referred to as, you know, issues in the culture war or as woke issues. There probably is some sense in which the culture war is at least a quasi-real thing, that there are these disagreements that tend to divide people and create that polarization we're sort of talking about. But I also think that a lot of these issues are very much driven by political candidates. These are the issues that they know that people care about, that they know they can get a reaction on, that they know are the generalized talking points. And in some ways, these issues protect political candidates, in my view, from actually dealing with the harder things and maybe the more complex things that could be addressed. Not saying should be addressed, but could be addressed as part of a political candidate's run. Just as a for instance, you know, we were talking about this even before we started recording too, but think about the amount of money that Biden and Trump are spending to campaign for president. And ask yourself whether or not that seems kosher in any way, shape, or form. It seems like such a massive amount of money. And when we think about how it is that we are, we have two candidates who arguably are the, I don't know whether they are, but they got to be up there with the oldest presidents we have ever had. 100%, yeah. You know, there have been another Pew study that said that given the opportunity, 50% of Americans would replace both candidates with someone else. How did we get here?

Here. Well, part of that has to do with the capacity for these candidates to raise money. That calculates into who the quote-unquote best candidate is going to be on either side. Do we think that people are going to support financially their campaign and give them the best opportunity to win? That's not the only factor, but it is a factor. Right. And so we end up with these candidates who really do need to speak to a very particular base in a very particular way so that they can win that side of the argument. And I think that the whole structure of the political process is really challenging in this way. It doesn't give us true choice. What we end up with are the people who have learned best to navigate the political systems that have been set up, which doesn't necessarily make them our best representatives. Right. No, 100%. And I think if you look at us like being a nonprofit, you know, I come from a nonprofit background. I had my own for a long time and you're constantly looking through every spend. You know, you have to look through the budget several times a year, sometimes probably each month. And you have to look at the ROI for each thing. And, you know, we're trying to make an impact. We're trying to make a difference and be a blessing to people. You would think the government is the same way, but it is totally opposite. If you took just a fraction of what they're spending on these campaigns, they could solve some of these huge issues or at least take a stab at it. But then at the same time, as you were saying that I was thinking this, and then I'm thinking I just saw how much money they spent in California for homelessness for the last four years. And it's literally done nothing. And it's like, where did that money go? So, you know, I think with the government, it's a different animal than our perspective from a nonprofit. But you would think the government has the best interests at heart, you know, and they're trying to make an impact, trying to make a difference like a nonprofit or a ministry is. So it's just an interesting, very polarizing thing to contrast the two. Yeah. And as we look at some of these issues, what I would say is, we need to make sure, and I think just coming at it from a Christian perspective, what I would say is, we need to make sure we understand and respect the limitations of the government. So one of the things I talked about in Serpents and Doves was this notion that Israel's law was given to it by God. Right. Moses goes up on Sinai and God is inscribing the laws, the Ten Commandments on the tablets of stone. And Moses is carrying them back down to the Israelites who immediately commit adultery and he smashes the tablets. And then through Israel's history, what you see is the law that God has given Israel is not capable of reshaping Israel. 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Again, text guide to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. And so if we really think about that, you know, wise laws written by highest founders really don't have a shot. I mean, and I think we just need to recognize that. It's not a, it's not meant to diminish the work that our founders did. It's not meant to diminish the good work that our politicians do. It's just a reality that oftentimes, you know, the best laid plans of mice and men do often go astray. We don't have the secret formula, the recipe to really solve all of the problems that we are looking to solve. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try. It does mean we should temper our expectations that throwing money at these problems, developing programs, doing education, all of those different things, they can have an impact, but they're not going to actually solve the problem. And so we need to understand that, that we just have a limited effect that we can actually have on the world around us. Right. Totally. And I think it's even a bigger problem when you step over to other pretty good size issues to get to the one that you really want to address because it aligns with, you know, your agenda or your political view or what you're trying to strategically do with your campaign. If we're talking politically, I feel like that's why a lot of these issues get skirted around. And we were talking earlier about that. I think it's just, it's, it's fascinating to me because as a Christian, we're even more hesitant because you don't want to say the wrong thing. You don't want to, you know, for me personally, I have a lot of skateboarders like in my friend list and on social media, just in life in general. And so I'm always kind of trying to walk that line, but it's like, am I worried, more worried about what people in the world and people that I know think about me or God. And so I've really been challenged lately, you know, with your book and just having these conversations with you in here and you talk about this to really go back to the word each time, what does the word say about it? And like you said, all we can do. And if everyone has that mentality and we just think, okay, I'm going to align myself with God, not left or right, center, independent, you know, that's, that's the best target for me to try to hit and aim at. And I'm getting there slowly, but surely, but man, it's, it's tough to navigate, especially being an election year. It, it can be, it can be challenging. It could be challenging at your own family gatherings for holidays, you know, we've all had that. So, yeah. So, so why don't we, why don't we pick one of these and sort of walk through it? Because what I think we need to do as Christians is not necessarily argue the merits of a particular policy. Right. At least not first. What we probably need to do is not jump all the way to the practical. What we need to do is we need to understand what would God have us do in this moment? What does it look like for us to point to and glorify the triune God? And to the extent that a certain policy allows us to do that, or a certain law allows us to do that, the political realm can be a mechanism for us to love our neighbor. And so I wouldn't deny political participation at all, although I think some people often think I am what I'm really trying to do is just walk back this idea that political participation is necessary in order to love our neighbor. I think that's probably too strong a claim. There's, there's very few things that we can always do that will always be glorifying to God and produce a situation where we can love our neighbor. And so we need to understand how we're not balancing these different values, but situating these values over against one another, recognizing that oftentimes what we're going to end up doing is we're going to end up focusing on a tree as opposed to the forest. And at other times, what we need to be doing is looking either A, at another tree or zooming out to see the forest as a whole. And, and from a theological perspective, I really think that that's the, that's a good analogy, right? One of the stories I tell to kind of get this across is my wife and I, for one of our anniversaries here pretty recently, Garth Brooks was playing at the university of Nebraska. And it's a huge stadium, over a hundred thousand people in attendance. Like it was crazy. It was just a huge, huge concert. And my wife and I love going to see concerts. We've been to small venues, big venues, but this is easily the biggest venue we've ever been at. And I would say, you know, Garth Brooks is not necessarily my favorite performer. No offense to Garth, but you know, if I'm picking who I'm going to go see, he's not necessarily the number one guy on that list. Right. But being there in a stadium with a hundred thousand people was an amazing experience, right? And there were times during that concert, like when he starts playing Friends in Low Places, where the whole hundred thousand people are singing that song in unison together and it's just something that can't be recreated. Right. Now you contrast that and you think, wow, a hundred thousand people all in one place, all doing the same thing, all cheering, all doing all the, you know, all this whole thing, that must have been overwhelming, but it wasn't because at times I could really focus in on the abnormally tall family in front of us who seemed unwilling to sit in the seats that they were assigned and kept moving around in front of us and making it hard to see the concert. And so you've got this hundred thousand person crowd and all

All I'm focused on are the five really tall people right in front of me, right? And so my focus is going out and in, out and in, from small to big, right? And it's pretty constant because you want to see the stage, and so you have to maneuver around these tall people who are kind of shifting about in front of you. But you also can't ignore the 100,000 people who are all around you. Right. Wow, that's a good analogy. Yeah, and so I think this is how we need to think about navigating these values. God cares about, for instance, justice. Justice is a massive, it's 100,000 people. It's a massive category. Right. At the same time, justice entails this very moment. It gets down to, let's not show partiality in court. You know, it's Leviticus 19, right? Or don't show partiality at a digital party. That's in the book of James. And so it comes down to these minute settings, but broadly, those are encompassed by the 100,000 people of justice. And so oftentimes, we're making these decisions. We're focusing in, and then we're pulling back out. We're focusing in, and we're zooming back out. And that's how Christian decision-making is really done. I think the difficulty becomes when we are, let's say, we're thinking about justice, right? And when we focus in on a small category, other Christians are focusing in on a different small category. Right. There's very little context for me if I'm not on jury duty to think about being impartial in a court of law. I'm very seldom there. Right. Right? But I can envision that there are Christian judges who think about that an awful lot, hopefully. I can imagine there are people who serve on jury duty who have that in mind, hopefully. For me, it is more about showing partiality in other aspects of life. And so I'm focused on this smaller issue that's enveloped within justice. Other Christians are thinking about a different issue that are similarly embedded within that justice. Right. So as we think about that and we understand that our focus sort of moves in and out, what I think ends up happening is that because the judge is focusing on no partiality in court and I'm focused on no partiality in, let's say, society in general, we tend to think that we're on opposite sides. And that creates unnecessary tension between us in a lot of ways. When reality, the reality is we're both concerned about justice at large. We're just concerned about it in more minute ways. And so we have to learn to sort of manage these differences within our community so that we all recognize that, hey, if it's justice, if it's life sanctity, if it's, you know, the holiness of the community, if it's, you know, cultivating or, you know, a proclamation of the gospel or whatever it is, that those big values that Christians would hold, that there's room enough for us to have differences within those conversations without being at odds with one another. Absolutely. Yeah, I was thinking of that earlier. I just thought of something else, but I don't want to forget this going back to you said loving your neighbor earlier during 2020, I was just like going crazy when I was in my house for six months. It's like your family, everyone's about to, you know, jump out of windows. You're just like, get me out of here. So as soon as we were able to kind of venture outside the neighborhood and walking and seeing people, it's like it made me interact with neighbors that I had been neighbors with for a decade or more in some cases. And it's like, do you love your neighbor regardless if they think the same as you or not? I just started thinking those kinds of things and having these different conversations. And, you know, it, it was just interesting to me to think. And then also, I think you said just a minute ago about Christians as a whole. I think sometimes we just assume everyone's on the same page, but like, if you look at that hundred thousand people and say it was a Christian show, say it was like a Brandon Lake or something like that. And, you know, cause they've had a lot of those big type of arena worship full type of concerts recently. And if you would assume everyone there is a Christian, but not everyone has the same heart for God. Not everyone is on the same level of their relationship. You know, the people that are going to be listening to this probably are, are more in that direction because they're seeking out to learn and to grow and to get more. But how many people call themselves Christians or, you know, aligned themselves like this, but they're not anywhere near, you know, where some people are, you know what I mean? So I think sometimes people miss that too. Like you can't blanket and say, because not everyone's thinking that way. Some people it's too daunting. So they just don't even get into these topics or they don't get very far past the initial stages of even looking into this. And, you know, myself included in some of these topics, it's like, let's move on to the next one. You know, it's just human nature. Yeah, I agree. I think it's really difficult. So having kind of laid that framework, let's just take a look at one of these. Right. So the one we talked about a little bit was this statement. And so there were, these are under the category of what the Pew Research Center called these wide differences between Biden, Trump supporters on key cultural issues in the presidential campaign. One of those issues is probably gesturing toward immigration. I think that's about the only way to understand it. And it asks for people's agreement and or disagreement with the or degree of agreement or disagreement with this statement. America's openness to people from all over the world is essential to who we are as a nation. Now I look at this question or I look at that statement and I ask myself a few different things. Number one, it assumes that we have a national identity and that we understand what that is. It's really the only way you can answer that question is that if you have a conception in your mind of what our nation is, what the character of our nation is, who we are as a nation, and then you can answer that question. You can agree or disagree with that statement. If you don't have a sense of who we are as a nation, it's far more difficult to agree or disagree with that. And even if you did agree or disagree without that sort of conception of who we are as a nation, what you're probably doing more is, is leaning into some sort of notion of how we think we should treat people. Right. And so my, my guess and my caricature on this one is that there are a certain number of people who would look back at America's heritage and say, well, we were immigrants. And so how is it that, that we could ever prohibit immigrants from coming to the United States? There are other people who might, might say, well, of course, we were all immigrants and yet the United States has a certain infrastructure, a certain capacity for caring for the people within its borders. And so we can't just, you know, continue to add whomever we want. There have to be limits, maybe not complete and total exclusion of people from the outside, but there have to be limits. Yeah. And so one draws on this, my guess, and as I've researched this topic, this seems to come up an awful lot, this American heritage of being the melting pot of drawing people from a variety of different communities into the American experiment and allowing them to flop or flourish, right? Based on, on what they can achieve within the American system. And then there's another side that is saying nobody's really against immigration that I can tell. People are calling for illegal immigration, a way of bringing people in through the border that respects our, our laws and maintains notice this word, the integrity of our legal system. And I would guess that some would argue that if you lose that integrity, are you not changing who we are as a nation? Right. And so it really comes down to what we believe our nation actually is. Right. It used to be celebrated like we were saying, like if you go to a big city like New York, you can get, you know, all these different parts of town. And a lot of those started a hundred years ago when immigrants would come over and it was celebrated and awesome. And like my whole life growing up, why were we the best nation? I always heard like, this is the dream to come to America, to have like the opportunities that you have because reality is most of the other countries or nations in the world didn't have what we had, didn't have the freedoms we have. Still so many don't. And it's kind of saddening for me that this issue has become so strong and so big. And like you said, the integrity I think is compromised. We don't have, we don't know. I don't understand all of it, but I know it's definitely changed a lot.

the last few years, as far as people and be able to just come through. There's more people coming through now, I guess, than ever before. But the people that wanna come here for legitimate reasons, I think that's a real bummer because I like that part of our American heritage and culture and history. I love going to these big cities, hearing that. My grandparents came over in the 40s from Sicily. I think there's a lot of beauty there. And it's kind of getting tainted now because everyone's just like, nope, lock it down, shut it down. And I don't want us to lose that key part of, you know what I mean? It was such a beautiful part of our culture, that melting pot. It's awesome. And you can see it in really every big city in America. Yeah. And I think that's the tension point. We probably need to be asking ourselves, who really are we as a nation? If we're a nation of opportunity, we have to somehow ensure that those opportunities are preserved. And that's probably going to be volume dependent, let's say. Right. There's a sense in which, you know, you just put too much weight on the bar, it's gonna break. And breaking the bar comes with its own implications and problems. And so you just can't add infinitely more people to a nation and assume that it is going to retain its status as the land of opportunity. Right. There's a finiteness to it. And so if we think about America like that, then you sort of lean one way. If you say, well, but who are we really? To determine not only what capacity America has, but also to think about who are we to determine who should get these opportunities? How would we sift and sort the people who want to come here for the opportunities that are still available? Who are we to close those off from people simply because they may not have the right education or they may not have the right social status or they may not have the right amount of money or what have you. And so then you might tend to lean the other way. But I think as we think about America, it has generally been understood that America is the land of opportunity. Maybe that's who we are as a nation. That's the story we've told at the very least. Right. And so we have to then think this through from the perspective of opportunity. How do we continue to be the land of opportunity when immigration has become seemingly easier, right? Our borders are more accessible. And probably more than that, you know, just like, you know, if you remember learning about osmosis in science, right? If there's more pressure on one side and there's a permeable border, water, air, anything is going to tend to move in the direction the pressure is pushing. And so anytime that we have, just if you'll note, like we don't have a northern border immigration problem, right? Because Canadians are not flocking over to the United States. We have a southern border immigration problem. And part of that has to do with the relative disparity of opportunity in Mexico, South America, that South American, Central American, South American sort of states in comparison to the U.S. That's not even a comment on, you know, whether or not Mexico is a great place to live or what have you, or a comment on whether America is just an amazing place to be. It just speaks of the relative opportunity between the two nations. And because there's such a disparity there, there is an impetus for people to move from one to the other seeking greater opportunity, but perhaps diminished opportunity comparative to where we've been historically. Right, because it's getting so flooded, like you said. You know, there's only so much resources. There's only so much opportunity. But I will add to that, I know I haven't, but you don't hear very often of people in America fleeing this country for their family's safety where you see the other side of that. People come here all the time from, you know, different parts of the world because of they're afraid their family is gonna get taken out. Or, you know, even there's people that have come here because they want to be able to practice their religion, you know, without... I mean, if you look at what's happening in South Africa right now, I just saw that leader that got put in there and I can't think of his name off the top of my head, but it's just these things are happening all over the world now. And so us being unclear on this topic and not knowing, and then also having an abundance of people coming in like never before, I think it's a really, you know, a really hard issue to address. And I think that, you know, the challenge of this sort of question that the Pew Research Center is asking or the statement they're asking people to respond to is that it assumes that we all agree on who we are as a nation. And so now all of a sudden, immigration becomes the presenting problem, but I would argue that it's a symptom. It's a symptom of a difference of opinion regarding who we are as a nation. Right. And for Christians, we have even the sort of bigger complication of, okay, there's America and we live as sort of dual citizens of the kingdom and of America if we live in the United States. And so, sure, there's a United States sort of culture and story and narrative that we want to preserve and that I'm, you know, I would say I appreciate. At the same time, it's not my primary allegiance. Love of country sits well below love of God and love of others. And so how do we think about these issues? There's a sense in which we're not as concerned about capacity issues. That's a logical argument that, you know, a governing authority might consider or someone who's seeking to influence a governing authority might consider because they recognize that the governing authority has limited resources. As Christians, we're not asked to make those calculations. And so when we care for immigrants, legal or illegal, when we care for the poor and the downtrodden, those refugees and asylees that come into the United States, we're doing something very different than supporting one immigration policy or another. We could actually be for a limited immigration policy and still go out and care for the immigrants that are right in front of us. And that is not looking to affirm a particular policy. It's not looking to change the way the nation handles things. That is a working out of our own specific Christian vocation, recognizing that the poor, the stranger, the alien among us, the oppressed among us are people that God calls us to care for, to do justice for. And so we can't leave these people to the government just to deal with. The government will make a decision and we have a role to play in that. But as Christians, we probably need to be stepping up. And we need to examine if we have a heart for people the way that God does, regardless of, you know, the left's decision with immigration or the rights or wherever you land, wherever you stand. Like, I agree a hundred and ten percent with you, you know, God first, then people and family and people, and then, you know, government. But what they decide one way or the other with immigration doesn't change how I feel for somebody. Like my heart's going to go out to somebody if they're fleeing because they fear for their lives or their family's lives. Like my heart's going to go out to them regardless of if we have room or not. But that doesn't mean I understand, you know, the right thing to do or the next step. I think it's a good start, though, just to start what is the heart of God for people? And like you said, the downtrodden, you know, the less of these, like he cares for them just as much as he does you or me or somebody that's in the White House. God doesn't care about political nature, stature. He doesn't care about how much money you have, how much recognition, who knows you, who doesn't. I mean, that's the thing. We got to get to the heart of it. And the heart of God for people is the same for all people. Yeah, and I would say along with the heart of God for people, we need to distinguish Christian action from political action. Christian action isn't seeking to, and I say this all the time, we don't obey because it makes sense to obey. And what I usually mean by that is that we don't obey because we think somehow obedience is going to fix the broken world. We obey because it's the only thing that we understand to do. It's what we've been freed to do. We are following God. And that's the only thing that really makes sense to us, whether it, quote unquote, works or not, because we're not here to fix it.

fix the broken world. We're here to be faithful in a world so broken only God can fix it. Does that mean we don't participate in government or politics? Certainly not. I think we can draw discernment and offer helpful guidance and counsel to our political authorities, whether that's through voting or through a variety of other means. But at the same time, we don't abandon, no matter what. Let's say the government tomorrow decides to let all the immigrants in, carte blanche, no barriers. Our first instinct needs to be, number one, a lament that the world is not as it should be and that all of these people are fleeing situations to live in what we might consider squalor. Let's just think about the disparity. It's not easy for immigrants to be in America. Right. They aren't living the life, right? They're not on MTB cribs or driving around in really nice cars and wearing nice watches. Finding a way to support your family could be so challenging. That's right. It's a fairly meager existence comparative to what most of us experience. Right. And so that in and of itself should draw us to lament and recognize the pain and suffering that's often in the world. But we should also just look at it and say, what a great opportunity for us to love our neighbor, for these people to be in front of us is a gift and a blessing for us to show hospitality to people who are now functionally without a home. And I think that that needs to be our first reaction. It doesn't mean we don't look at the government and say, hey, we probably need to rethink some of these policies here. But that's my point. We can do both and. And we often don't think of it like that. We often think of it as you can do either or, right? That somehow, you know, supporting illegal immigrants by providing aid to them or shelter or what have you is an endorsement of open immigration policy. And what I would just say is it doesn't have to be, probably some instances it is, but it doesn't have to be. Sometimes it can just be Christians working out their Christian vocation. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. The people that they find before. When you said earlier, as Christians, we need to step up. I think this is an area that we certainly could do that. And instead of even getting into these conversations, just trying to make people get in a corner and pick one or the other, we could just stop that and just love people where they're at. And, you know, I don't, I don't mean to say figure it out as we go. Like you said, you don't, we can do both. I think people get stuck and they're like, oh, so then they just don't do anything. And that, that would be exactly, to me, what the enemy would want because then it keeps us from living out our, our, you know, our faith through what God's called us to do by loving our neighbor, loving all people around us and all those kind of things. Yeah, I think it's one of the interesting ways that Christians need to just hold in tension the true distinction between church and state. Church acts regardless of resources. Right? We're not resource dependent in the way most people think about it. God is going to do more than we could ever ask or think. And so that suggests that no matter what math we do, God is going to be empowering us to do more than we thought we were going to do. And so we have power, we have resource that we can't see and we trust in that as we step out and obey. The government is very different. The state is very different. The state is trying to manage something. It's trying to hold something together. It's trying to provide justice for the people within its borders. It's trying to create a peaceful society. And so its decisions, the way it thinks, and I know I'm referring to it as an it, and people will forgive me for that, but you get the picture. The governing authorities have to think differently about these situations than Christians do. And in large part, it's because they don't have Christ. They don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't have the resources that Christians have to draw on to say, you know what? If we trust God, we have no idea how this is going to work out, but we still know it's the right thing to do. Right. Governments can't really make that choice. No, totally. It's always been interesting to me when you look at the two, because I certainly have seen and I know people that put their faith and hope in government or one politician, one president, one leader, and the way that we do God. And it's like, they can say one thing, and very often they do and never do what they say they're going to do. When's the last time we read or seen in your own life God do that? Like God always comes through. You can bank on it. You can count on it. Even if we don't see it in our timing, it doesn't mean that it's not going to happen. I was just talking to somebody about this yesterday at the radio station or last night. It does not matter. So you can't, you can't stop praying or believing because you didn't get your answer when you wanted it. You know what I mean? But at the same time, in my experience, I've been a Christian since 1998 and a follower of Christ. And there's never been a time where he didn't answer eventually or didn't work something out in my life. But if you look at just this last year in the government or, you know, the last four years, how many things have been said that didn't happen? If you use that as a basis, you would, you would think that would kind of clear some of that up. But it's always been interesting to me, people putting their hope and faith in an entity instead of God. But then at the other side of the coin, I think there's a lot of Christians out there that don't really put their trust as much in God. They're still trying to, and in reality, they're, they're being driven by fear and they're trying to just, that's why people just start glued to the media, like watching every night for hours, Fox news or wherever they get their, their information. And it's like, man, that's such a, that's such a sad, like, why would you not, why would you not plug into something that you know is going to, to be effective and it's gonna, you know, be truth. That's my whole point. What I think, you know, one last idea here to throw out is that as we evaluate some of these issues and we're thinking through how we relate to government and what government can do and what government promised to do, certain governing leaders promised to do. We live, you know, we live, unfortunately, we live in a nation, I guess, fortunately and unfortunately, it shouldn't be a sadly or an unfortunate. It should be fortunately and unfortunately, the bane and blessing of living in a government that is of the people, by the people, and for the people is that we need to be informed. And so it's interesting, for instance, to look at this survey from Pew and say, okay, what's the differences between Biden and Trump supporters on gun control? But the reality is gun control is a legislative issue. The president has influence on legislative issues, but ultimately the House and the Senate handle those legislative issues for us. They are our representatives in that. And so the presidential vote isn't going to have a massive bearing necessarily on a gun ownership. The only time the president would really get involved is if he's going to veto something, let's say. Right. Or sign a bill into law. So it's not that it's trivial. It just means that there are a lot of components here. There's more complexity than we often give it credit for. And so if what we're saying is, yeah, I want to vote for, you know, this person, because if this bill ever crossed their desk, they would sign it. Okay, but then there's a whole bunch of downstream issues that we need to be thinking through. All of these people that we're voting for and getting into office have to come through in a coordinated effort. It just has to work that way. And I think sometimes we neglect the complexity of that governance. Oh, 100%. How many other issues too did you leap over to focus on the one that really strikes a chord and hits home most with you? That's right. And I've seen so many people online that base their decisions on like one or two things. One being gun control, one being abortion, which we talked about earlier. And it's interesting to me because, like you said, whoever gets in office

office, very rarely it's going to make a huge impact on some of those issues anyway. And we're, we're selective. And I guess the whole point of this whole, for me, what I understand us and what I want for this myself to have more understanding, we are selective by human nature in things, but we should not be selective on what we want. We should be running it through the filter of, of God and, and, you know, that hierarchy we talked about earlier with God, then our family and people around us and, you know, government's kind of in there in that second category too, but I think we just so, we just so quickly get bent out of shape about one or two issues that we miss all these other issues. And are we, we're being selective in those things, but are we running it through biblically? So that's right. And I think the other side of that need is just, yes, we, we should be attending to what God would have us do, recognizing all the time that we're probably going to get that wrong, that discerning God's will is uh more than a tricky business. And so we've got to, we've got to recognize we're probably going to get it wrong. Right. And, and there's a sense in which that, that's sort of freeing, knowing that we're not going to get it right is, is freeing. And, and recognizing, I think the even more freeing part is that we don't have to get it right, is that God isn't dependent on us to make the right choices in order to accomplish what he wants to do. That's right. Yeah, he doesn't need us for those things. Right. And so we should be diligent in trying to think these things through, but we shouldn't get so obsessed that we, you know, pull out our, you know, our felt boards and, and, you know, get our, you know, our felt board Jesus out and, and try to discern where he's leading us today. I mean, there's just a certain extent where we can overthink these things drastically when really, you know, what we should be thinking about is that God is superintending these processes. And that our participation is important and it's not trivial and it is a reflection of who we are as Christ followers. And ultimately that's why I would say that if we are going to participate in anything political, we have to ensure that it allows us to point to and glorify God. If we can't point to and glorify God by engaging in the political process, we should not engage in the political process. That's the one thing that we're called to do that we can't really abandon. I can't set God aside today and say, you know what? I'm going to decide that today, even though I'm going to call myself a Christian, I am going to make a completely different choice, totally different choice. Uh, and, and I'm just going to abandon my Christianity for the day and get some stuff done, dang it. Like we don't get to do that. Right. And, and I think we have to just remind ourselves that God is far above us and that, that these things that we think about often are again, not trivial, but that our role is not to solve the problems. Our role is to be faithful despite them. I keep coming back to the, the selective thing. Cause yes, you said we don't get to do that, but unfortunately I think there are some people that do because selective integrity is a thing that is real. People like they let one issue that is built up in their mind or in their heart so much, they let it cloud, you know, running it through that filter like we're talking about. Um, but we still can bloom where we're planted. We still can love everyone around us now, even if we don't fully understand. And I totally agree with not engaging in the political process if we can't point people back to him, but we can still love people where we are. We can still have conversation with our neighbors and show them love and compassion, even if you don't agree on everything cause you're not going to. And I think the lost art we were talking about earlier about 2020 and, you know, before 2020 and even our nation where it was before, I think people now can't, they feel like they can't have a conversation with somebody unless they agree a hundred percent on everything. And the reality is if, if you keep going this way and that meter keeps get moving further the other direction, no one's going to be able to conversate about anything in the future. Yeah, that's a place for us to be heading. So that's concerning to me. Well, let me close out this conversation as we're running toward the end of the episode here. Let me close out this conversation and just point people to the story of Josiah. So I think the story of Josiah is actually fairly important as a framework for the way that Christians can participate in the world. Josiah, you know, the book of the law is rediscovered. Josiah reads it, realizes that Israel is way off base and needs to change its ways. And so what does he do? He begins, you know, to plan for these reforms, but God comes to him and says, listen, Josiah, it doesn't really matter what you do. I'm not going to spare the nation of Israel. Like Israel still needs to be punished for all the things that they've done. Anything you do is going to be superfluous. It's going to have no effect on how I treat Israel. The only thing I'll do is that I'll make sure that you die before anything happens to the nation so you don't have to see it. Josiah still does the reforms. And you just think about that. He knows the outcome. And yet he feels so compelled to honor God that it doesn't matter that these reforms aren't going to change anything. It only matters that he does them. It's crucial for his faithfulness to do it. It's crucial to honor God that he do it. And his obedience. And his obedience. And so a lot of the times when I read research like we've kind of covered today and when we think about these political issues, part of the challenge I think Christians have is that they're looking to have an effect. They're looking to actually fix or change or reroute something. And the reality is that when you look at Josiah, that is, in my estimation, the heart that we need to be pursuing these matters with. Whether that's political engagement, whether that's just our day-to-day lives, whatever it is, even if it doesn't change a thing, stepping out in obedience and faith is always something that God can use. It's something that is honoring to God and it is commensurate with who we are as Christ followers. So I love that story of Josiah. It's 2 Kings 22 and 23. But it's an important story, I think, for us to frame the way that we participate in these matters and really deeply understanding that our decisions here, it's far more important that they be faithful than effective. It's not that a faithful decision can't be effective. It's just that that shouldn't be our aim. It should not be our aim to say, God, I've been obedient to you, and so I'm assuming you'll do this. Right. It stops without that back end. God, I've been obedient to you. I'm going to be faithful, period. Yeah, there's no but. Whatever happens, happens. Right. And so my encouragement would just be for people to go and check out that story of Josiah. Read it, reflect on it as they think through their political participation because it is just such a crucial story in the Old Testament about someone who engages in a process of reform, knowing that it's not going to save his nation. And that's really good, James. Wow. Now, I'm going to, I've read it before, but I'm going to go read that today. That's awesome. Well, we'll call it a day there. And hopefully people found this conversation interesting. We're going to go back through and look at some of these other culture issues just to give people a better sense of maybe how they could think through them in a Christian fashion. This episode has really been kind of a broad primer just to give people a sense of how these conversations could go, how we can hold these different values in tension. And so, yeah, we'll be back in the next few episodes in the next couple of weeks talking about several of these other topics and maybe even have a few guests in to discuss them with us. So, Nate, thanks for doing this. Appreciate it. Having you on and having a conversation partner. Much appreciated. Yeah, definitely enjoyed the conversation and it definitely got me thinking about a lot of stuff and just trying to wrap my head around it. I'm sure like a lot of the listeners are. So thanks for letting me be a part of it. Absolutely. Hey, we'll catch you all on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Thanks so much for being here. 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