Dr. Michelle Keener | Suffering, Faith & the Book of Job

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Michelle Keener, Dr. Michelle Keener. And she's an associate research fellow with the Kirby Lang Center for Public Theology. And she's also the director of discipleship at her church in Las Vegas. Perhaps more importantly for this episode, she is also the author of Comfort in the Ashes, Explorations in the Book of Job to Support Trauma Survivors. And we're going to be talking a little bit about the book and some of the concepts that she addresses, as well as just probably your work in general. So it's great to have you. Welcome, Michelle. Thanks for being on the on the program. Well, thank you for having me. I am super excited to be here. Yeah, it'd be great to have the the book out and launched. I've been through the publishing process a couple of times. And so I know that this was probably not, it probably didn't happen in like the last month, you know, you just wrote this and got it out. These are usually very long processes. And so it's, it's kind of rewarding to have it out, I'm sure. It is. It feels a little bit like, oh my gosh, we made it like we crossed the finish line. And then it brings that feeling a little bit too of, okay, so now what? Yeah. Yeah. Any plans to write another one? I actually have another book coming out in June with TNT Clark, and that is what I affectionately and lovingly refer to as the boring version of this book. So that's actually a revision of my dissertation. So anyone who's interested in the topic, but you really want like the technical academic language kind of stuff, that book's coming out in June. Very cool. Congratulations on that as well. I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's dive in a little bit. I'm interested to know, you know, when I, so I went through, I'm an Old Testament guy. I did my PhD in Old Testament and Job was one of those books that most people avoid like the plague. It's very difficult. It's very technical. You know, the Hebrew is not easy, right? You know, you, you sort of have Job and Ecclesiastes that are often sort of pushed to the side. And so I'm wondering how you got involved in even wanting to study the book of Job. And, you know, so where that interest came from. Yeah. So it's interesting. Like you, I really did not like the book of Job for a long time. I loved the Bible, read it millions of times. I would, you know, get to Job and be like, oh, Job, right? Because it is, it's a long book. It's a repetitive book. It's, it can be a little depressing. It can be confusing. And so when I was still doing the coursework for my PhD, I was in an Old Testament writings class and I was supposed to be researching the book of Psalms. But then I went through a lot of trauma and suffering in like this really rough period of my life. And so I talked to my professor. I was like, you know, I know it's late in the game, but can I switch? Because I think I want to spend some time with Job. And her reaction was like, you can, but now you've only got half the time to write this paper. So she's thinking I'm going to fail this paper. And she asked me, uh, I'll just kind of off the top of her head. She said, have you ever considered looking at Job with trauma studies? I didn't even know that was a thing. And so I kind of started doing some initial research on it and I started seeing some connections. I was like, this actually works and this actually helps me understand this book. And so I wrote that paper and then I never forgot it. So when it came time to do my dissertation, I called this professor back. Uh, her name is Dr. Jennifer Jones. She's brilliant. Another Old Testament scholar. And I asked her, I was like, do you think there's enough here for a dissertation? And her response was so sweet. She's like, uh, duh. Yeah. And, uh, and so that's how I ended up doing the dissertation. And then she ended up being my mentor for the project. And, um, and, and I kind of laugh because we're very good friends now. I was like, did you ever think just that off the cuff suggestion, uh, was going to involve like the next two years of your life as well? That's fantastic. Yeah, it's kind of nice. I mean, it being led into those sort of things is always interesting. I, I mentioned this to you in, in a previous conversation, but, uh, part of my dissertation was in collective remembering studies and particularly the work of Jeffrey Olick. And he does a lot of work with the Holocaust and the remembrance of the Holocaust. And so it does get into, um, more, I would say like collective trauma is more what he tends to do. So not exactly trauma studies, but I, I found the whole thing really compelling and interesting. And so these integration of fields is something I'm kind of interested to hear you talk about. You know, you said you, you started diving into trauma studies and you're seeing sort of some of these connections and, uh, and I had that experience as well, but I'm wondering what was it about trauma studies that gave you insight into the book of Job and how did you go about sort of marrying those two up, bringing them close together and not sort of reading trauma studies into the book of Job or, um, reading the book of Job over the top of trauma studies? That's a great question because that is a very valid concern, right? When we're trying to take what's really a modern approach, um, a modern theory, and then trying to impose it on a biblical text. How can we do that responsibly and do it in a way where you're, where we're not, um, seeing things that aren't there or trying to, to build things into the text that aren't there. And I love that you mentioned collective trauma because that's kind of where my research started because there is a good body of work in biblical studies right now, this looking at collective trauma and things like the, the exile, uh, and the post-exilic literature. And, and that's all fascinating. And so I started there and then I started looking at the book of Job going, well, this really isn't a story about a people group. It is very intentionally written as a story about a person. This is an individual person. And so what does that mean? And so then I kind of took a little bit of a, of a detour into, well, if we can look at collective trauma and how that has helped shape the biblical text and how understanding that can help us understand the text, can we do the same thing with individual trauma? And so that's kind of the approach that I took and I ended up landing on the idea of a trauma narrative, um, which is not trauma literature, right? As a genre. What I started looking at is the concept of a, um, like a therapeutic trauma narrative. How do we as individuals, when we have suffered, when we have been through trauma, how do we process that and put that into a narrative? And I'll put narrative in quotes, right? Because Job is a lot of poetry. Sure, sure. How can you say narrative? It's poetry, right? Um, but how are we expressing that? And once I started to see those connections, I was like, this actually can help answer a lot of questions about the text. Um, so questions of why, why does Job change his perspective so radically between the prose and the poetry? Is that mark of different authorship or can understanding trauma help us understand this response, um, from a literary unit and a literary perspective? Um, and I found that very helpful as we're working through the book of Job. Why is the book of Job so repetitive? Well, because trauma tends to be repetitive. Um, why is there so much metaphor? Well, yes, poetry is metaphor, but trauma relies a lot on metaphor. And, and so there were all these intersections, um, uh, as you would say, kind of between the fields that were illuminating both of them. And, and I got really stoked about that. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text guide to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text guide to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. That's interesting. Yeah, I'm, you know, as you think about when I think back on the book of

I think we look for structure and order in texts in order to help us understand them. But in Job, would you say that what we need to be doing is, instead of, you know, looking at this one little microscopic part of Job and going, OK, this is what it really means. And then you move over here and it's like, well, this is saying something completely different. Should we be viewing that chaos, that sort of chaotic sort of movement that he's going through as a portion of the, as the message, really, as the way of understanding it? Is that my understanding right? I think that's a really good way of putting it. Because if we look at the impact of trauma, trauma is really an undoing, right? It is our normal way of looking at the world, our normal understanding of the world and our place in it gets disrupted by trauma. That's what makes it trauma, right? It's not, oh, I stepped on a Lego and my foot hurts. We're talking about a life-changing, at times life-shattering event that we can't necessarily make sense of. And so when we look at the book of Job, and I love Job 3, right? His opening monologue. So the first chapter that switches to poetry, there is this cosmic undoing that he is verbalizing, how he is calling for all of creation really to be unmade. Because for him, his world has been unmade. And so we see that reflected in his words. We see that reflected in the poetry, even down to the structure of the poetry and how the structure starts to fall apart. And then there's that famous, like the third dialogue cycle between Job and his friends where it gets really messy and everyone's like, I don't, I don't even know what happened here. Well, the structure has fallen apart, right? Job's world has fallen apart. His relationship with his friends have fallen apart. So it makes sense that the dialogue now collapses and so this yearning that we have as humans for order and for structure and for being able to understand the world and having this idea that, oh, I understand who God is and how God functions. Well, for Job, that's all fallen apart. And so being able to recognize that and then look at some of these questions in the text as maybe reflecting that, I think that really offers us a really interesting avenue of interpretation for a super complex text. Yeah. You talk about, you mentioned, you know, the, he calls out this cosmic imagery and you talk about the decreation language that he uses. And I find that sort of fascinating because when I read something like, let's say, and this isn't related to trauma at all, but Genesis 6, 1 through 4. And that, that text is fraught with problems, right? Who are the sons of God? Who are the daughters of men? What's the Nephilim thing going on, right? So not to get into any of that, but I think if you just stood back and sort of, you know, broadened your view on that text, what you'd see is there's a boundary being crossed that wasn't supposed to be crossed. No matter who you identify the sons of God and the daughters of men as, this is, these are two groups that weren't supposed to be together. And now they're choosing really apart from God, probably to be together. There's a collapsing of distinction and that collapse of distinction, this merging blurring of boundaries now then brings on the flood. It is a decreation event. And so in that instance, we're given a, a very human cause. Sin leads to the decreation. In Job's case, that's what he's struggling with. And I think that's what his friends are struggling with in a lot of ways, that they can't connect the cause and the effect of what's going on. This is, you know, they're unanchored from anything that would have given them an idea of, oh, Job brought this on himself. I mean, that's largely the argument his friends, but Job isn't feeling that way. And so you have that sort of decreation language and this collapsing of boundaries that's so, I think, sort of integral to understanding what creation is doing in the first place. And now Job is calling this down saying, almost the decreation language is a, maybe a sense of his confusion about what's going on. Is that a, is that a fair way to think about it? I think that's a really interesting perspective on it. And I like that you had pointed out that what we're really seeing a lot in the book of Job is this clash of worldviews. His friends are still in that retribution theology idea. If you are suffering, it's because you deserved it. And Job's like, I'm not though. And he's trying so hard to make his case, like you guys don't get it. I did not do these things. And that kind of culminates in this big oath of innocence he does, right? He's like, if I have done these things, go ahead and curse me. I'm telling you I haven't. And so these two worldviews are in conflict and his friends can't understand Job's perspective. Job can't convince them to kind of broaden their horizons. And it is sort of this moment of the unstoppable force meeting an immovable object, right? They can't communicate over this. And so this idea becomes entwined really with this, with creation and justice. And we kind of see those coming together in the book of Job. So Job, who is experiencing injustice, right? He knows I did not deserve this. And yet here I am. His experience of injustice is leading him to understand that that means the world is no longer safe. The world is not ordered. And therefore creation is falling apart. And for him, that's where he, because he's coming out of the same retribution theology worldview, right? That's where he was beforehand. And then all of a sudden his experience and thumping into his theology and they don't, they don't agree. And so everything starts falling apart for him. That's a really great way to understand it. I don't know that I would have put all that together that succinctly. That's fantastic. Really helpful. How do you, how do you take, I'm just going to pick your brain on the book of Job now because I'm, I'm interested, but you know, the beginning of the book of Job, Job is described as sacrificing, you know, making sacrifices just in case his kids have sinned. And I think it's, you know, there's a part of me that is, it's like, okay, that's an appropriate way for us to, we should see that as sort of a, this exaggerated righteousness of Job that he's, you know, leaning into, um, you know, being as righteous as possible. And it's a sign that he's so concerned with not sinning that he's even covering sins that might've happened, not just sins that definitely happened. But as you talk about the, you know, he's coming out of this worldview of the retribution theology, there's also something sort of pernicious in that practice too. Um, how did you, how do you think about that, that passage where it describes him sacrificing proactively, let's say for his children? Well, I, I think you nailed it, right? That he's in this retribution worldview. And so he's worried about his kids. So what's he's going to do? He's going to make these sacrifices just in case. And therefore I'm doing all of these things to earn God's protection for my kids. And so he's in this very kind of quid pro quo worldview and then it doesn't work, right? And his kids all die. And then we jump to the end of Job, right? We go all the way to the end, um, to the prose epilogue. And what is he doing? It doesn't say that he is sacrificing for his kids anymore. It says he provides his daughters with an inheritance. So instead of attempting to, um, earn protection for them instead of trying to kind of bargain for their safety, he's instead acknowledging, maybe there's nothing I can do to prevent this except to provide for them and to make sure they have what they will need. And so I think that, um, we sometimes miss because it's very small, right? Just a couple of lines. How important it is that Job not only names his daughters in the text, but is now giving them an inheritance alongside the sons. Yeah. And so I think that's a fascinating change for him. Yeah, because I think we get, whenever I've led people through the book of Job, which hasn't been very often, right? But a few times I've taught through it. And the question that ultimately arises is, you know, as Job is proclaiming his righteousness, the question is always, well, yeah, but he's not really righteous. Like we're all sinners. And so it almost defaults to this idea of, um, you know, there's a universal sinfulness that we're all in. And so whatever God gives us, we deserve, right? And I'm not 100% sure that's what the book is trying. I'm actually pretty sure it's not what the book is trying to teach us. But, you know, that That part where he's proactively providing for the sacrifice. And in the end where he is no longer sacrificing, he's just providing the inheritance. I think those two bookends are, you know, sort of in between there. That's what we're supposed to understand is happening is that he's, this isn't about general sinfulness or, you know, God, you know, maybe taking away his restraining hand so we don't.

Experience the punishment that we're supposed to feel or what have you, I think it's intended to give us a different read. This is Job's, for lack of a better term, evolution away from retribution theology to a much more trusting relationship with God, recognizing, and maybe you can talk through that sort of creator language toward the end of the book and how how God really recalibrates Job in that moment. How do you how do you see that functioning when God kind of comes in and says, I'm sorry, I didn't, I don't remember. Were you there when I made the foundations of the earth? Is that did I miss you? Yeah, well, and that and that's such a fascinating part of the book to read, like, God shows up, right? And not just walking in like, Hey, how are you doing? I mean, he shows up in this storm, right? And shows that he has been listening this whole time because we see the similarities in language that he uses with Job. God's been listening and now God's like, Hey, I, I'm going to give you my perspective. Like, whoa, wow, right? Um, so there's a couple of parts that I want to kind of highlight in your question. Um, the first is when we talk kind of this idea of, well, Job's a person. So Job is obviously sinned and this is what happens. If you look at the way that God speaks about Job, God never actually condemns Job for anything. Instead, he refers to him as my servant. This is my servant from the beginning to the end. So even after everything Job says, and some of it's pretty radical, like, some of us were pushing the envelope, right? But even after all of that, God says, this is my servant. This is my servant, Job. He is upright and blameless. And, and so there's that that we need to kind of keep in mind. And then when we talk about this creation language that God uses, um, in his divine speech, right? I love it because how did Job start? Job started with this decreation language, right? The world is falling apart. It's not ordered. Nothing makes sense. And I'm just going to, I want to erase the day that I was born. I want to undo everything. And then God shows up and takes him on kind of this whirlwind tour, unintended, whirlwind tour of creation to show him it is ordered and there is um logic, there is sense, and I am in control. Let me show you all of these things, right? God doesn't actually address his questions. Oh, hey, let me tell you. Okay, so, so this, this Satan figure came to the heavenly council and he was talking some smack and this is what went down. God doesn't even address it. He says, let me show you my creation and let me show you where I am in it. And that is what Job needs to be able to leave the ash heap, which I use kind of as a metaphor for the experience of trauma throughout the book, that Job in that moment with God, his, this worldview that fell apart for him gets rebuilt and God is able to restore him. And then Job's able to leave and rejoin his community. He gets restored to his, what I would call his priestly role, right? He's not a Levitical priest, nothing like that. But he is called to intercede for his friends. And so God is restoring his role. He is restored to his community and his, his life is able to move past the suffering that he's been through. So let me ask you a couple, a couple questions. Then I want to talk a little bit about how, how this sort of more practically might work out in the lives of people with trauma in the church. I don't want to miss that aspect of your work. I think that's really crucial and important. So I'll geek out over Job the whole time if I'm not careful. I'm okay with that. Yeah. So number one, when you said rebuild his worldview, I just want to make sure I'm understanding. Would you say it, it is rebuilt, but modified? Yes. So Job has learned something different. He's got now a new perspective on God that is more in keeping with, not with retribution theology, but with the sort of, we could sort of say orthodox theology, something like that. I do think that's what happens because we see Job in this encounter with the whirlwind. There is a change in Job, right? He's able to leave where he has been sitting. He's able to leave the ashes. He's able to move on with his life and continue in his role as a servant of God. So there is a change. One of the frustrating things about the book of Job is the author doesn't tell us what it is, right? They don't spell it out. And Job doesn't tell us what he now understands about God, but we see in his actions in the epilogue that what he needed to be able to function in the world, to be able to process his trauma and understand his place in the world, that has been changed through this encounter with God. And so he does move on. And yes, I would say it's safe to say that his theology has been changed and it is now, it's something different. Okay. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Last question, then we'll talk a little bit more about how this applies into trauma. But as I was reading through Job just in preparation for the interview, one of the things that came to my mind was, you know, Genesis 22, you have Abraham is tested by God. And we're told in that narrative that Abraham is going to be tested by God. In that narrative, it seems like what's being tested is Abraham's willingness to fear the Lord. Is Abraham a God-fearer or is he not a God-fearer? And so that seems to be what's in mind. In Job, it's a different sort of test. And so I'm wondering if I'm understanding this correctly about the book of Job. For the book of Job, yes, Job is being tested, but the purpose of Job's testing is to vindicate God almost by vindicating Job. Like if Job makes it through this, God wins. You know, because the adversary isn't really accusing Job of anything. He's questioning the worthiness of God. Am I getting that quasi-right? Yes, so there's a whole lot in there to unpack. I'm going to try to do it real fast. So first, I want to highlight what you said about Genesis 22 because there are a couple of very subtle connections between Job and Abraham. And one of them is this very famous passage at the end when, which is normally translated that Job is going to repent in dust and ashes. I have some issues with that translation, but that's just me. Oh, it's not just me. There's a lot of us. But that phrase, dust and ashes, is actually used by Abraham when he's talking to the Lord about Sodom and Gomorrah. And Abraham refers to himself, I who am only dust and ashes. So we've got some of this, this very subtle connection between Job and Abraham. And then I don't know if you've read the book, but J. Richard Middleton wrote a book called Abraham's Silence. And it is a fascinating take on comparing Abraham and Job. And one of the things that he points to is God tests Abraham by asking him to do something completely out of character for God. Yes. And Abraham doesn't question it. He doesn't question God's character, even though he knew God, but he's going to go through with this. God acts in a way that Job sees as out of character for God. And Job pushes back on it. And Job says, this is not how God operates, which then goes to your point of really the key issue in the book of Job is that the adversary figure is challenging God's setup of the universe. And he says, well, of course, Job loves you because you've given him everything. And so he's even operating kind of from this quid pro quo worldview. And God is willing to say, that's test it. That's not how I've set things up. That's not how people operate. And so it is in the end, both Job and God who get vindicated. And one of the funny kind of ironies of the whole book is Job's friends keep telling him, if you'll just repent, God will restore you. If you'll just say you're sorry, God will remove his hand.

And they are advocating for Job to do the very thing that would prove the adversary right. Correct. And it's Job's resistance and his refusal that is actually kind of honoring God. And in the end, God shows up and is like, yeah, Job spoke right, and you guys, not so much. Not so much. Yeah, it's one of the few times in Scripture probably where repentance isn't the best idea. I mean, don't repent, Job. You don't hear that too often. Well, very good. That's really helpful for me. Like I said, I've talked through Job a few different times, and that's generally my approach to it, is sort of to look at this vindication of God because Satan really is that adversary. He's coming after God and God's worthiness. And you're right, the way he set up the world. And so, yeah, that's where I was thinking Job's testing and Abraham's testing are slightly different. And, you know, interesting. So, okay, so how did, so talk a little bit about how you think Job can inform people in trauma. Maybe that's where we should start. How can Job inform people in trauma? Gotcha. Well, I mean, I think we start with, if there's a biblical character that kind of could be in the dictionary for trauma, I think Job fits the bill, right? Because it's reputation, it's health, it's family. He loses pretty much everything. And so when we are in a season of suffering and when we are going through kind of this senseless pain, right, this loss that we can't comprehend, that doesn't make sense, it's really logical to turn to Job to say, how did this guy get through it? One of the challenges is if you are just in a season of pain and you go to the book of Job, that can be really confusing and it can be really difficult, right? Because there's no answer in the end, right? We go to Job, we're like, explain to me why I'm suffering. God's like, nope, not gonna do that. Let me talk to you about, you know, Bohemoth and Leviathan. But what we can do as scholars, as pastors, as church leaders, is we can approach the book of Job understanding kind of some of these universal human responses to trauma. And while every experience is unique, there are some trauma responses that are very normal and that we can expect. So we can then go to the book of Job and start pulling out some of these lessons to minister to the people within our sphere that are going through this kind of pain. And as I was researching for my dissertation, I started to see how this was applicable to the church. And I wanted to add a whole bunch of stuff to that. And my mentor was like, nope, can't do it, right? This is a dissertation. You cannot have application. You can't do all that stuff. And so I was like, well, that's fine. I'm gonna go write another book. And so that's what we ended up doing. So this one is very practical. So what lessons does the book of Job teach us that we in the church or that we as believers can use immediately with people that we love or with people that we're called to support? Yeah, because there's a certain, I think I recall, you know, you talking about the friends, their real mistake is not being empathetic listeners. That might not be your wording exactly, but there's a presumptiveness about them. They come in and just tell Job what he needs to do to get out of this situation. And in that, I think maybe within the context of the book, they're not only presuming on who God is, they're presuming a theology that isn't correct. And that's a big part of their problem. But also from the perspective of just caring for somebody in trauma, they're also not really being there with him. They're just trying to pull him out of the situation that he's in. You know, they don't want to sit there with him. They want him to fix his problem. Is that a, you know, fair summary of what you did? I think that, I think that's really well said. And so if we look at Job's friends and for a long time, like I would say friends and I'd put it in quotes, right? Are they really friends? But then I started to recognize they are in fact friends. And that's part of what makes what they do so painful because this isn't a stranger on the street, right? Who's looking at Job going, you just need to repent. You'll be fine. These are people that he trusted who came to support him, right? And the text tells us, like they had to travel. They weren't like neighbors. They had to travel to get to him. And so they clearly cared about Job and they came and what they sat with him in the ashes, right? Which is this garbage dump basically outside of town. And he's covered in sores and the dogs are like licking his wounds. Like this was not a pretty place to be, but they came and they sat with him for seven days and didn't say a word, which is beautiful. And then they start talking and then everything goes downhill, right? Because Job starts just venting, right? I'm, I wish I was never born. I wish the whole world would fall apart. And the friends are like, dude, you can't say that. And so at that moment, they're, they're no longer capable of being trusted listeners for Job because they are so invested in protecting their own worldview. And they are so focused on imposing their agenda on Job that they're not really listening. They're, they're trying to tell him, as you had said, look, just do this and then everything will get back to normal, right? You just need to do what I'm telling you to do. And there's no, there's no genuine curiosity. There's very little empathy, especially towards the end. Like, I mean, we want to talk like 900 year old snark. Yeah, we got snark, right? And, and so there is this failure to support. There's this failure to engage with someone's personal experience of suffering. And how often do we see that in the church, right? Someone experiences a loss. Someone is, gets that terrible diagnosis. Someone is going through a divorce, whatever it might be. And we want to come in with these very quick answers, with the very Christianese language. Oh, everything happens for a reason. You just need to pray more. You know, oh, just get up and trust God. Let go, let God, right? And all of that may be true, but is that actually helpful in the moment? Or are we just trying to fix the situation so it's no longer uncomfortable for us? Yeah, like there's almost a self-protective element to it where we don't really want to see or experience their trauma because it unsettles us. And if we get too close, it will unsettle us. That kind of idea. I think one of the things you said, I don't know if you're familiar with John Verveke. He does a lot of work in cognitive psychology. He wrote a piece on relevance and he talks about relevance doesn't, you know, realizing what is relevant in any given situation doesn't deny the truth. What it does is it hones in on the truths that are relevant at the moment. And so, you know, yes, it's true that God is going to take care of everything. Yes, it's true that God is going to, you know, wipe all the tears away and there's not going to be any more death and any more pain. That may not be relevant right at this moment. And so part of it is just being careful probably about how we respond in the moment, not bludgeoning someone with the truth, but actually trying to understand what, how to speak truth into this situation in a way that is helpful and beneficial in the moment. Not denying those other things, but maybe not speaking them because they're not helpful. That's a really beautiful way of putting it. I remember just me personally going through, you know, just really hard times. And I would joke with my daughter, how many times someone would say to me, God works all things together for good. Yes, that's true. I absolutely believe that 100%. And at this moment, that is not helpful, right? At this moment, I could use a hug, right? I don't need, I don't need a coffee mug Bible verse at this moment. At this moment, I need someone who can sit with me and walk through this time with me rather than trying to fix me so we can all just move on. Yeah, yeah. It's really, I think it's, so how do we develop that sensitivity? Cause I mean, I think I probably would react more like Job's friends. I, I'll say it like this. I think the more I've interacted with people in trauma, I've gotten better at not talking, worse at actually drawing close. I tend, and I think you referenced this. I may have read it in, you know, the materials that IVP sent me. But you talked about giving people their space. I think that one hit home for me. I mean, I can think of people right now who I've probably given.

Too much space. And, and, like, that was kind of convicting when I read it. I'm like, Oh, I need to reach out because it is difficult. I don't, I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do. And so I don't want to say the wrong thing. And if it were me, I'd probably just want my space. And so, you know, you can rationalize it in a million different ways, but how do we, how do we dig into this a little bit? Like, what are, are there ways to sort of wade into someone else's trauma that maybe we don't fully grasp or understand? I think it's a really human response when we see someone who is in pain or we see someone who is suffering, that if we don't know what to say, we will choose not to do anything. Because as you had said, we don't want to do the wrong thing. And there is something very healthy about that, right? To recognize, like, I don't want to make things worse, so I'm not going to do anything. At the same time, trauma itself, the experience of trauma is very isolating. Because if we go back to this idea that trauma kind of overwhelms our thought processes, it overwhelms our nervous system, and everything we thought we knew about the world is suddenly not trustworthy and it doesn't make sense. And it can feel like I am the only person who understands this. And for many people, you are. Like, like the experience you're having, you are the only person going through that. And so it starts this, this feeling of alienation and isolation. And then when you have your support circle also saying, I'm just going to give you some space, right? A lot of times what that means is either I don't want to make things worse, or when you get it all together, then come find me and then we can have our normal friendship again, right? And how much pressure that then puts on this person who is in desperate need of support and in desperate need of friendship and community for us to say, well, you can come back to this community once you're all good, right? Once you've got it all together. And so how can we do a better job, maybe of engaging that? I think some of it is we have to be so humble to be able to come to someone and say, I don't know what you're going through. I've never been through this. I don't know what you're feeling. It's awful. Can I just be with you? Right? Can I just sit with you? And, and to be able to be comfortable enough with ourselves to say, I don't have the answers. I don't know why God let this happen to you. This is terrible, right? Your child should not have died. Your, your business should not have gone under. This is, this is really sad. And then leave it there and, and allow them to draw on their own thoughts, their own processing, how they are piecing things back together and to just give them the gift of our presence and not that, you know, hey, text me when you need me, but I mean showing up. Hey, can I do your laundry for you? I brought you groceries. Yeah. And then at the same time, I would also suggest in the, in kind of an institutional phrase, in a church phrase, if we recognize that trauma can be isolating, how can we as a church help facilitate connections for them? And it might be as something as simple as, hey, we have a greeting card ministry. Can you write some cards for us? And letting them know, yes, you're in a dark season, but you're not broken. And we're not discarding you. There is still a place for you here and we value you and we love you and you are still part of our community. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. That's really good. Yeah. I, I'll admit, I mean, when I was reading through, again, reading through Job, kind of reviewing everything that IBP sent me, one of the articles that came to my mind is written by Mark Lewis. It was in the New England Journal of Medicine, I think maybe 2018 or something like that. And he was talking about the, the learned behaviors that come along with addiction. I think he says that a little bit more strongly than I would. But he, he essentially argues that addiction is learned behavior and that there's a narrowing that happens that as you, let's say, you know, whatever it is you're addicted to, let's say it's alcohol. As you get more and more addicted to alcohol, your world starts to narrow. And so now all you're really looking for is the next drink. And so what do you do? Well, you start to make friends with the bartenders and the bartenders serve you, you know, like your social network narrows. Everything narrows down so that all you have left that you really know how to do and know how to do well is find booze. It's a really interesting concept. Like I said, I think he goes a little too far. He goes a little further with it than I would. But when I think about that paradigm within relation to trauma, trauma is such a narrowing event. In other words, it's like it's hard not to think about anything except that trauma. And so just as you were talking, part of where my mind went was part of what we need to be able to do is to broaden people's perspective and remind them that there is good here, that they do have friendships, that there is, there are lovely things in their life, that no matter what it is that they're going through, that there is beauty there. There's goodness there. And not necessarily telling them that, but really being there to show them that. Yeah, that's just where my head went with the, but I love the idea of engaging them, that they're hurting, but they're not broken. It's fantastic. I love that. Oh, I'm glad to hear that. Yay. Well, and, and this idea of narrowing, it makes a lot of sense in a trauma perspective, because one of the analogies I've been using with trauma is it's an event that we can't immediately cognitively process, right? There's no space for it. We don't understand it. And so it becomes this, this item on our to-do list that we can't put anywhere, right? Like, and you have a, like you're filing things, right? And oh, this goes in taxes. This goes in, you know, school. So this traumatic event happens and there's no place in your kind of mental filing cabinet to put it. And so it sits on your desk and, and what do you do when something is on your desk and it just sits there? You look at it. Oh, where do I put it? And you pick it up and then you put it back down and you go about your life, but then there's this over here and that helps us understand why trauma survivors may need to talk about the same thing over and over and over again, because it doesn't have a place to go yet and how we can help facilitate that. And I loved what you said about even just helping them to see that there is still beauty in the world and that the world does still make sense without trying to impose it. Like I'm going to give you the answer for your trauma, but just being able to point out some of that or maybe just demonstrating it just by our willingness to be a loving friend and to be a trusted listener for them. And if someone wants to say something that we would hear as, oh, you, you know, you can't talk about God that way. Like Job did, right. And his friends tried to shut him down. Right. What if we give them a place where they can actually say some of those really shocking things and we go, yeah, you know, I don't think that's true, but I understand why you would feel that way right now. You know? Yeah. I'm not sure, you know, no, I don't think God hates you, but I get why it feels like that. So, you know, what do you need in this moment? How can I support you? And how freeing that might be, right. To have a place where you can say all of these wild, wacky things and know that your people are still gonna love you. What would that look like? Yeah. No, I mean, it's almost like we need to be Job's friends for the first seven days and then probably not the rest of the book. You know what I mean? Yeah, I love that. I will say, I mean, I had a really bad herniated disc in my back. I hurt it doing yard work. I was carrying something heavy and stuff.

And so I had the whole loaded twist and pivot and happened in my early 20s, so they wouldn't operate on me. And it got so bad eventually that it it really did consume a lot of my life. I mean, I was I looked disheveled. I looked like I was in pain all the time. And and, you know, even when I was sitting down, all I was thinking about was how hard it was gonna be to get up. You know, that sharp shooting pain in the bottom of my foot that, you know, like all of those sensations that people who haven't had those problems would ever understand. But for me, it was all consuming because it's like, it's gonna take me five minutes to stand up straight. That's a really weird sensation, you know? And and so I think that that you're right. It's that thing that sort of gnaws on, you know, it's that itch in your brain, right? It won't go away. And it just keeps itching harder and harder and harder and harder and harder. And it begins to hurt, and it just sort of consumes and creates a tinge around everything that you're looking at. But I don't know, I'm interested, just any sort of final insights on trauma. We're coming close to time here. And so usually I close this out. I usually close out my episodes asking kind of a big question. So I'll ask you the big question, I guess, and we'll see where this goes. What do you think the church should be thinking about in order to help Christians be and make disciples more faithfully? It can be related to the book, doesn't have to be related to the book or the topic of trauma, but just, you know, sort of, what do you think we're missing that we need to figure out? Oh, that is a big question. And I love it because that's what I do in my church is I work on discipleship. So I'll be a little selfish and talk about the things that I have found important. And I'm going to say it kind of as gently as I can. What I have seen in a lot of churches, right, and I've been in a lot of churches. My husband's retired military, so we have lived across the country. We've been in a lot of churches. We've been in a lot of churches. I've seen, you know, East Coast, West Coast, North, South. I've seen it. What I have seen is that we have very often confused the idea of a disciple with a convert. And so we think if we get someone's hand in the air, right, if they walk the aisle, if they say the prayer, if they check the box, our work is done, right? Hey, you're going to heaven. Now go back and do whatever you were doing before. And what we're missing is making disciples. We're good at making converts, but we're not making disciples. And if we look at how Jesus modeled that, he said what? First, he said, follow me. Okay. And they leave their fishing nets or they leave the tax collecting booth and they go follow. We could argue that's a bit of the conversion stage, right? I'm going to follow Jesus. But then what did he do? Then he spent years teaching them and investing in them and showing them, this is who I am. Now go do the same thing. And so what I see is we're missing this formation stage, right? Someone raises their hand. They make a decision. Cool. Now we want them to, you know, give some money and serve on a team and then go tell other people so you can bring more people to the church. And then we're missing pouring into them theologically, right? Okay, you're claiming the name Jesus. Do you know what that means? Do you know what it means to be a Christian? Pouring into them in terms of praxis. What are spiritual disciplines you can be doing? How do you become more Christ-like? That was the purpose, right, of first century discipleship was to imitate your master. So how are you becoming more Christ-like? How can we support you in that? And then only after that, equipping them to go make other disciples. Does that answer the question? I think so. And I just, you know, quick follow-up question. My gut is that we've got a scale problem when it comes to making disciples. So, you know, I've read The Master Plan of Discipleship, probably you have too. It was sort of normal seminary fare usually. And I remember reading it and being like, this would be fantastic. I don't see how I could ever do this in my, in the daily world that we live in. That master plan of discipleship is extremely difficult. People are just going all over different directions. And the number of people that we're dealing with is really high. I mean, you and I have both been in higher education as students and probably as professors and those kinds of things. And I always found it interesting when faculty members would talk about, well, we need students to be on campus. I was an online guy, so I didn't mean to be. I just happened to be. But they were like, well, we need students on campus for formation. And I was thinking to myself, you know, my MDiv, I had a mentor. My MA, I didn't. My PhD, I was commuting and I didn't have a lot of interaction with faculty members. So I was always on campus. There are cracks here that nobody's recognizing and it's all to do with scale. There's just too many people who need to be discipled and not enough people who can actually disciple. So when you think about that, and you use the phrase, you know, how can we help you grow, right? Would you see discipleship as a sort of a, and I think it's always been this way, but just to sort of put it out there, an individual and a group activity where you have to have both in a certain proportion. But we may very well be on the end of that spectrum where that proportion is going to shift far more to the individual than it is to the group. Whereas Jesus was the complete opposite direction. Does any of that make sense? It does. And I think what you're identifying is kind of a cultural shift, not only in education, right? With kind of this growth of online education, which honestly, I think is amazing because it's opening opportunities for so many people. So I love that. I do. I teach online, right? I teach for Houston Christian University. I teach online. I love it. But also this kind of cultural shift within the church as well, where we have people who are still, who are watching online and are not coming to the building anymore for a variety of reasons. And so I think the church is in kind of this inflection point of how do we address a changing culture and still meet these formation needs of our people? And there's going to have to be probably a lot of out-of-the-box creative thinking. I mean, I have taught discipleship classes for churches online. Like we do a Zoom class or a Teams class. Is it the same? No, but it's a new creative, innovative way to help people in their spiritual formation. And so I think there's going to have to be a balance because we all grow as individuals before God anyway, and we want to encourage that, right? You need to read your Bible. You need to be praying. All of these things. And we are meant to be in community. So how do we foster community? Ideally, it's in the church building and people show up and we have groups. Is that going to be the standard moving forward? I don't know. We're in a really strange cultural place right now. But you're right. We have to keep both of those in mind and figure out how we balance that because too far either direction, you can have someone who is hyper-individual and they are in their theology and they are in their Bible, you know, eight hours a day and they're doing all of that, but they never interact with another person. Well, how many of Jesus' commands deal with how we treat others? And if you never talk to another person, if you are never in the presence of another person, how are you going to do that? Very good. Well, we're on time and I want to respect your time. So let me wrap this up. But thank you so much for being here. I actually, the conversation on Job was really refreshing for me. It's one of those books, like I said, you know, you kind of stay away from it, especially early on in my education, I stayed away from it. I got into it a little later, but it's such a fascinating book, but very difficult to understand. And so I think a lot of what you said really helped me understand it. Hopefully it helped the listeners too. And everybody out there who's listening to this episode, go get Comfort in the Ashes. We'll have a link to it in the show notes. IVP has given us a 20% discount. And so if you buy it from IVP press, where the link will be in the show description, you'll get 20% off. So that's totally worth it. So skip the Amazon, go right to IVP press and Michelle, just thanks for being here. Thanks for interacting and I really appreciate the work you're doing. Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast, so I appreciate it. No problem. Absolutely. All right, everybody. Well, we'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Ever walked

Wow, now that was exactly what I needed. Hey, I'm Donna Jones, host of the That's Just What I Needed podcast. Each week, we have great conversations about life, faith, and how we can know, love, and follow God in our everyday lives. Listen and follow at lifeaudio.com or on your favorite podcast app. Can't wait for you to join me.