Denise Lester | From Outreach to Exit: How Rended Heart Walks With Survivors of Sexual Exploitation

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I am joined today by Denise Lester. And Denise runs a ministry called Rended Heart, and we're going to be talking about that ministry. We're going to talk about the problem of sexual exploitation and how her organization, she and her organization, are working to fix the problem. So, Denise, welcome to the podcast, and thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. This is just a great honor to join you today. Yeah, absolutely. So tell us a little bit about, I know you're not originally from Kansas City, Missouri. You're from out east. So tell us a little bit about your journey even into the Kansas City area and then maybe into Rended Heart. Wow, that's a great question. OK, so yes, born and raised in New York City, kind of like all over the city, working and going to school and all that good stuff. So travel those subways and, you know, walk those streets with hundreds of people around you. Kind of one of the things I miss, but not. So, yeah, interestingly, this was not something that was on my mind or my heart until I moved to Missouri. So from New York City, we actually, my husband and I and our kids moved up to Albany, New York for about three years in 2003. And then to Kansas City, Missouri in 2007. When we moved up into Albany, we connected with a church and had a little bit of a house of prayer. And we were really like just pouring out into the community. I was actually in children's ministry for a long time. And then there's a place here called International House of Prayer. And some of you may have heard of it and some of you may have heard of all the things that have been happening there. Oh, my gosh, my heart. It's been it's been difficult these last few years. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, to say that with all the stuff that has been happening there, still the Lord moved on our hearts and we really felt like we were supposed to move and be a part of the mission at the house of prayer. And so we did in 2007. We moved our entire family out here. Many people have that story. And and so once we came out and were involved with just particularly for myself, just really like spending a lot of time with the Lord and in prayer. There was a gentleman who I just had a mission from the Lord to start Exodus Cry. Benji Nolo, I don't know if you've heard of him anyway, they started Exodus Cry. Some of my friends were involved with it and we my husband and I got invited to be a part of the outreach team, first outreach team. And we said yes to that. And so that was the beginning of our introduction to really going out onto the streets down in Independence Avenue and Prospect. And all of the areas where women, transgenders were all kind of walking. They had their own little streets and all. This is back down in 2009. Looks way different now. Not as many people on the street, though there are. But a lot of it is on the Internet, you know, through the websites now. So so it looks different. But all that to say that that's where my heart started burning for these women. I guess I've always like I said, I was in children's ministry, but always kind of like mentoring young adults and teens. And as my kids grew, you know, their friends and more of their friends and that kind of thing. So I think just the Lord has always put that kind of a compassion and mission on my heart to help those who are broken, needy, et cetera, or just want to talk to somebody and have some wisdom, which I guess God's given me a little bit of a gift in that area. So I don't like to blow my horn there. So it was a little bit of a gift, maybe. So with that, you know, we started doing these outreaches and we we did it. I did that for like nine years, actually. And in the interim, my husband and I found some women who were really needing an exit way out and needed a place to stay. And so we'd have sometimes ladies stay in our own home for shorter periods of time and help them transition to a longer term program or home or wherever it is that they were, you know, going. And so that's where we recognize that there was a gap in the services of these long term programs and outreach and awareness. There's this little gap where most programs that will accept you, you have to do an application process. There's a 30 day clean from any drugs, alcohol that they want. I've gone through already and and sometimes they don't have an ID, they don't have a you know, there's not enough places in one area. So we kind of see here in Kansas City, but we work in all different places. So anyway, all of that to say, that's how we kind of That's where my heart started to burn. And in 2017, my children were older and I felt like this was the time to start Rended Heart. And I got that word, that name Rended Heart from the Lord. Joel 2. I thought it was gonna be a little prayer ministry, but ended up totally different direction. It's still a prayer ministry, but looks a lot different. Yeah, yeah. So Joel 2 and it's return to the Lord, rended your heart and not your garments. Perfect. Yeah, that's great. So you guys offer just to like kind of clarify, because I read through your website and I could I could totally understand that my wife and have not worked with, you know, sort of the same population that you're working with with her, you know, women who have been sexually exploited coming out of prostitution, those kind of things. But we've done the foster care system and the foster care system has its own sort of wheels and bureaucracy that you have to work through. And you realize that a lot of those are probably necessary, right? Otherwise, the system kind of gets overwhelmed that you can't take care of anyone. But you also recognize that many of those are barriers. And so kind of what you guys have done is you've said, hey, here are these barriers for these women to get out of this. Why don't we create a space for them to walk through for a 30 day period so that we can help them get into a longer term program? Am I understanding that correctly? Correct. And we also yes, absolutely. Because the need for, you know, I get calls from emergency rooms like the sexual assault nurses. Yeah, I get calls from, but not just here. Like I get local calls from police departments, you know, the law enforcement, but I've gotten calls like I've gotten calls from victim advocate specialists out from attorney general's office out like in other states. I won't say exactly which states probably should not do that. But I, I get calls like random calls and I'm like, oh, how'd you hear about us? And, you know, whether we've been referred, we work, we have worked with, um, with women who have been trafficked in from other countries. Um, and so, you know, learned a little bit about immigration status and what that, you know, how that impacts the whole, uh, survivor needs that, that how do we, how do we help this person from the perspective of it's still a human being. This was, they were, they did not, they did cross that border illegally, but they crossed because they were coming into some situation that was not actually what they thought it was. And, um, and so anyways, working with immigration on that, um, working with, um, mental health facilities, um, and foster care. We have worked with foster care. Um, we don't have a house for under 18. So, but there was a one time we did a, um, with some other organizations, we did do a outreach where we were out looking for missing children. Um, and I found two young ladies who were sisters and because of my relationship with foster care social worker at the time, um, they were going to send them to detention because they had been runaways. And so I had called and said, Hey, can we take, we didn't have anybody at the house. So it was perfect timing because you can't mix adults with minors. Right. So, uh, I was able to like talk them into allowing the girls to come with me. I said in Missouri, and I think this has changed now. Oh, I know it's changed now. But back then the, uh, the law said that we could hold for 72 hours.

A minor. And so I was like, we can hold for 72 hours and you can find them a different place to go. Well, we ended up having them for three months. And um, but yeah, and so it was a great experience, but when we don't have housing for children at this time. Yet, my mission is not, yes, to help the individual who's coming out and who needs a 30-day stay. And if we have housing for that person, then we will take them in. However, we don't always have housing because that's a lot of housing, right? I get like over 600 calls a year. And, and so we don't have housing for everyone, but my mission is not to just say, sorry, I don't have any housing for you right now. I will do the research. If you want to give me some information about, you know, give me some background. I have to ask specific questions, just kind of do a little assessment on um where their mindset is, what they want, what needs are, and then I can make the phone calls and see if we can find them a place to go that is not with me, but still get them somewhere. So my desire is not to just say, I don't have any housing for you and sorry, I can't help you. I still want to help. And that happens with the kids as well. And also just speaking of foster care, by the way, one of the ladies that came into my housing um back um a few years ago, um, I won't go into the whole story, but she had a uh six-month-old at the time who was left with, this was during COVID, and um she tried to get arrested for a ticket because she was done and passed out. And they told her they weren't arresting anyone, so um she had a panic attack. So they sent her to the emergency room. Emergency room called, nurses called um me and uh long story short, we had her in the house, but her six-month-old little girl was still with her pimp. Um which, by the way, when they released her from the hospital when she was first born, on her paperwork, on the discharge papers, it says that mom lives with pimp in a domestic violence situation, and yet they still sent both mom and that baby back. I will, I, when I found that out, which I didn't find out until we ended up adopting the baby, um, and the reason is, I, well, I did a whole, like, search on how do we get this child, because she had said he was the father. So you can't just go get the father. They're three hours away. Anyways, it was a really long story, but it's an awesome story because I was able to get connected with a clerk out in that area, a court clerk, and we got domestic violence um paperwork signed for mom and baby. And so then we drove out, went to the sheriff's office and asked the sheriff's to go get the baby and brought the baby back. Um, mom was at the, in my program and she was doing great. A couple of years, she would stop. Um, she, uh, backslid into the drugs again. And so it was a whole situation that happened a couple of times. And then at first they did foster care didn't take the baby because we said we could take my husband and I will house her and she can see the baby with supervision with our volunteers. Um, so that was okay the first time. The second time that didn't go over because she actually overdosed while she was in the hospital for a different procedure. So they were like, yeah, we're taking the baby. But then we said, we'll stand in and we'll watch her. Um, so after three years of foster care for this child, which that was one of my things of like, I understand why people are in foster care. It's a mess. But at the same time, you have to do it, but you have no like pay, you know, anyways, I ended up with, um, we end up saying yes to adopting the little girl. So now we have a 5-year-old. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide, or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Congratulations. Yeah. Congratulations. Yeah, we have my wife and I just. It's my life, but. My wife and I just adopted a four-year-old, so I totally kind of get where you're at. And it's interesting. You know, I don't, like I mentioned before we got on and were recording, I've had guests on who have talked about the sex trafficking sort of rings that go on and those kind of things. And so I know a little bit about it just from those conversations, but I'm not really deeply involved in it. And so I'm wondering, you know, Kansas City, I'm in Kansas City pretty frequently. Our corporate offices are there. You don't see a lot of, and maybe most of the prostitution has sort of gone online, as you mentioned, but how does this, how do you see these urban centers, particularly being breeding grounds for sexual exploitation and sex trafficking and those kind of aspects? I mean, Kansas City is a fairly central location. It's not like you have, you know, I mean, you have to fly in basically. I suppose you've got, you know, a river running through there or what have you, but how does it even work? Like logistically, how does this actually happen? I'm not trying to get you to give a roadmap to somebody, but just so people have an understanding of the ways that this is actually occurring. Great question. There's a lot of points to that. One of the main, speaking specifically to the greater Kansas City area, we have two major highways here, 35 and 70, which go north, south, and east, west. A lot of trafficking happens when they're traveling through Kansas City. And so people are moving around, you know, whether they're moving them through a train, whether they're moving them through an airplane, whether they're moving them, you know, by vehicle. We've gone into strip clubs and you might see a lady there that, you know, is there for every time, every, you know, other week that I go into the club, she's there. And then all of a sudden she's not there. And she's gone for maybe two, three months or six months, whatever it is. And then all of a sudden she's back and it's like, oh, hi, I haven't seen you in so long. Where have you been? Oh, I've been in Florida or I've been in Nevada or I've been, you know, in different places. So people get moved around and then I'm always just staying here. But I think one of the major things that people don't recognize is that a lot of times drugs are involved. And so many times what will happen is, you know, whether it's a family who have been involved with drugs and now they're having babies and those babies are not rescued out of that situation, which could have been my little girl, right? And in that situation, those kids are living in a dysfunctional home. They're coming, you know, drug addicts are coming in and out. Dealers are coming in and out. Pimps are coming in and out. And those kids are kind of like, this is their lifestyle. This is what they grow up in. So many times moms and dads are pimping their own kids. And that's just not just in Kansas City, but that's just that's just how it works. But in Kansas City, what I have recognized is it is so pretty much underground, even though you do see it on the streets at night and there are the strip clubs happening in the area. But it's not like it's infiltrated with strip clubs, right? They kind of like out. There's like a few that are in a certain area and then they're kind of spread out. It's not infiltrated with people on the streets in one area. Like years ago it was, but not as much now. We still walk the streets. We still can find ladies to talk to. We see it. We see it more visibly in the poorer areas, but it's not just in the poor areas. And that's what people need to understand. It can be your neighbor. It can be, you know, I've I've helped women who and teens who have lived in nicer areas of Missouri or Kansas. Um, and it's so it, there's not really like a specific dynamic or demographic. It happens everywhere and everything. One of the things that really fuels this in this day and age is porn. Pornography is everywhere. Uh, we see that it's gone from the age of 11 as an introduction down to the age of eight and sometimes seven that they're getting introduced to pornography, these children. Um, it's easy to take your, you know, your kid's phone and you put locks on it or your devices. But it's the other kid that doesn't have the lock that says, Hey, have you ever seen this? And so.

the phone with images and then your kids like, whoa. So, you know, we're naturally, we naturally respond. Our body naturally responds. Our curiosity naturally responds. And now our kids are like getting involved with this. And there's a whole training that I do about all of those things. But within Kansas City itself, there's a lot within like the one area where it's poor, there's more drugs, there's gangs happening, gang activity happening. They don't speak about it as much. And it's very difficult unless you're a minor. So if you're a minor, if you're under 18, then it is the prosecutor's job to prove that you have been in a sexual exploitation or trafficking situation. And they have to find all of the evidence, right? Starting probably with a same nurse who does sexual exploitation kit to see a sexual assault kit. Sexual abuse could be from a parent, could be from an outside person. They don't always connect it to human trafficking, right? But then you have the adults who, I lost my train of thought, sorry. As opposed to the underage. So the adults, the prosecutors probably need a complaining witness or something like that, right? Yeah, so it's, as an adult, 18 and over, you have to actually prove that you, that it was not by force, that it was by force, fraud or coercion. And that is very difficult. Criminals are smart, right? Like they, like, this is my boyfriend. They get you to be their boyfriend. So they groom you in that. And then it's, oh, you're going to sleep with my friend? Or they drug you and then you don't, you wake up the next morning and the woman tells me, I don't know what happened that night. I woke up, my pants weren't on. Or, you know, he has me sleep with his friends. They never see the money passing. So they don't really understand, you know, or they're homeless. And, you know, if these things are happening, you know, under a tent or in order to have some food, you have to have sex for me. That's trafficking, but she has to prove that. So it's very difficult. And so what most times will happen when, when they do have any reports or evidence of a situation that is human trafficking, then the prosecutor doesn't have enough evidence to actually charge with the human trafficking. So they'll charge them with guns or drugs if they can get them that way. So we don't really know, like what is, you know, how many of these individuals are being trafficked by the people who are in jail for a different offense, but that's what they can charge them with. And that's how they get them in. Yeah. No. And so in your, in your ministry, what you're really doing is you're trying to remove a set of vulnerabilities that would allow these women to get out of those kinds of situations. You know what it sounds like, at least, and I'm just trying to understand it correctly. Like you've got all of these things that are sort of against these women, you know, they have to then prove that they've been coerced. They have to prove that they've been paid for. They have to prove that they've been assaulted and all these different things. And that is really challenging. In part, probably because the lifestyles they're living are not conducive to them proving that they, you know, aren't involved in this in some other way. And so you're providing this space for them to step out of one lifestyle and start to cultivate another. Is that a fair way to describe kind of how Rended Heart works? Yes, absolutely. That is the mission is to give the opportunity to go a different avenue, to have the support and the community behind them because you have to walk away from all those people, right? Whether they're family or not, or they're friends, or they really are boyfriends and, you know, whatever. This is your, this is their community. And I always give an analogy of like, I could give you a, I could say to you, Hey, James, I'm going to give you a million dollars. And I'm going to say, you can spend it however you want. You don't have to report it to me. Do whatever you want with it. Invest it, spend it, whatever you want to do with it. But there's going to be one condition. And that condition is that you have to move far away and you cannot talk to anyone that you know ever again. Like no one. You have to start a whole new community of people. And you're like, shoot, I could do that for a million dollars. That's easy. Give it to me. And you go, but you know what? After a month, you're like, how easy is it to make like friendships? How easy is it to have history with someone, whether it's good history or not? Because if I go to my uncle Joe's house, a funeral and he was, he was a bum and he, you know, molested this one or did that or was a drunkard. Like, he's still my uncle Joe. We're going to sit there and we're going to talk about how bad uncle Joe was, but he's still uncle Joe, right? So it's very difficult for these, these women, men, there's men too that are being trafficked. So, you know, mostly women, but, but there are men too. And, and, and children, right? Like it's difficult for them to walk away from the person who has been their perpetrator, who has abused them because there's still the innate connection to that individual. Whether it's a family member or whether it is someone who is not a family member, who's a boyfriend or like, there's, there's also a trauma bond that like, there's a whole part of the mentality that goes, that, that this person actually has experienced. That's not so easy for them to just walk away. So they, so when, when I introduce the idea, when I meet with someone, whether it's in the hospital, whether it's a jail, whether it's on the street, whether it's a coffee shop, like there, I have to do an assessment. Is this person really ready to walk away? You know, is this person ready to give up the drugs? Most of them are involved in, in drugs, not all, but you know, are they ready to, to surrender their phones for a season? That's really hard for this generation, for the youth of this generation. They don't want to give up their phones. And the reason we ask for that is for the safety of them and the safety of the people in the house. But what the connecting with the same old people, right? Like they have to be ready for that. And then, and then, so, so that kind of, you kind of get to a place where you can recognize the person who is like, I am really done with this. Like, I don't care. I will give you my phone. I will, you know, I don't want to have any social media. I don't need any connections with everybody. I want, I want to be, I want to get out of this completely. And so that, those are the people that we're like, okay, we're here to support you with this. We want to help you. We're going to take you, you know, for that toothache that you've had for a year, we're going to take you to the dentist and get that tooth done, you know, work with people who can do pro bono work with us. We're going to get to your ID back. We're going to get, we're going to find a place for you to go where you can get healing, where you're going to have food and shelter and, you know, counseling and all of that. So your life, and then, you know, as you go through that, eventually you're going to be able to get your own place again. Like, like that's the mission is, and that's the mission, I think that is so near and dear to God. Like, you know, it's great to have ministries. It's great to do awareness. And I'm not saying anything that that's not important. It's great to do all of these other things, but unless we're actually working towards changing a person's life and giving them the opportunity to get a new life, then we're really not doing like the full job, right? Of God, like the Samaritan, like if you just walk past them and say, Oh, poor man, you know, or throw him, throw him a dollar or throw him a, you know, a piece of bread or something. You have to actually pick that guy up and help them, but they have to want it too. Like, you can't help somebody who does, who's not ready to be helped. It's it's, it's hard when, you know, you have an individual who they want help, but they, they wanna, they want to have their own place. They want to bring their pets with them. They want to do, it's like, you're not really ready. You can't, I can't give up my phone. Like you're not really ready to do the next thing because that's surrendering those things is temporary. It's just a season for you to get healing, for you to get established in a new life so that then you can have those things and they can, and they can be safe for you again. So. Yeah. Let me ask you a serious question. 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Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. It's a, I would imagine it's a really difficult and interesting dynamic to watch people make that transformative choice. Because they may not understand fully what life is like on the other side of that choice. And so you just kind of sit back and you're like, you almost have to get into their heads and go, I'm surviving now. What if I can't survive if I give all these things up? It's got to be one of the hardest choices they've ever made in their lives. And we look at it and, you know, and kind of sit back and go, it should be easy though, right? Because like your life is really difficult right now. Like this is not, this is not good. But we're on the other side. We have different support structures, different people. I mean, when you ask the question, you know, if I gave you a million dollars, would you abandon everybody you've got? You know, I don't think I would. Right. And it's like, that's the sort of wonderful life that I have that God has given me that I wouldn't give it up for a million dollars. But these folks have just, it feels like they've just been fighting to survive. And so you get ingrained in that, like, this is what life is. You can't explain it to them, what it's like not to have all of these things around them. It's something they have to choose to experience and to do it. They have to decouple completely from that previous life. I can't imagine how difficult that decision would be. I mean, if somebody came to me and said, your life could be 50 times better than it is right now. All you have to do is give up X, Y, Z, you know. I'm not sure I'd buy it. No. And that, that's, you know, part of it is there's a trust factor here, right? Yeah. They don't trust anybody. And rightly so. I mean, they, like you say, they're in survival mode, you know, like they are being, they have to, their response is always fight, flight or whatever. Fight or flight. Yeah. Fight or flight. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever it is, you know what I'm saying? But they're always in that place of trying to know where the next place they were going to sleep, what's the next food, who's going to backstab them, who's going to hurt them, who's, who's going to, you know, whatever, who's going to provide the drugs. Like what is that going to feel like? Like, am I ready to surrender these drugs? We know that addiction is real and it is hard to make that decision of, you know, yeah, I'll do that tomorrow. I mean, we all, I always say like, you know, many times we try to diet and even just like, And it's like, just give me that Don burger and the Coke, not diet Coke, please. Not today, right? Right. I'll do it tomorrow. Well, that's the same kind of emotions that they wrestle with too. So it's like, there's a lot, like you're saying, there's a lot that we, because we have a different lifestyle, because we have a more quote normal lifestyle that, you know, and it's cushy, even though it's not always cushy, it's cushy. We live a cushy lifestyle if we're not living that. If we have a home, if we have food on the table, it's cushy, right? Yeah. So for them, they don't, they have to fight for that every day. And they have people in their lives promising them things all the time. And, and then it's either not coming through. And that's one of the things that I have tried my best to do is not to promise something that I'm can't provide, even if I have an idea of like, Maybe I could give this young lady, you know, a ride or I can get her something that whatever down the road. Like I don't make that promise, you know, I say, I'm not gonna make you a promise, but this is possible. Or I don't say anything at all and I go figure it out first and then come back. Hey, I could do this for you, you know? Because that is what we have to, we have to build a rapport. We have to build the trust and, and it takes time. It takes a lot of time to do that. And there's just also mental, the mental, the behavioral health, like that mental. Sure. Yeah. What do you call it? Mental health. Yeah. Just mental health is also a factor a lot of times. Whether, okay, all of these individuals have PTSD, whether you're the pimp or the, the, the survivor, right? Like it's, there's mental PTSD that's happening and the PTSD is out the roof. It's not, we all have PTSD. We all get triggered by something, right? Like we all, nobody has a perfect life that you walk through. Things happen and you know, we're triggered, whether it's by a song that comes on or something that somebody says to us, somebody some way somebody responds to us. That's, that's, that's a trigger and we respond to that. Well, these individuals are being triggered all day long. Like, because trying to survive, you know, they're trying to have food. They're trying to have a bed. They're trying to find the drugs if they need the drugs. People are again, say one thing, do something else. And so we have to start from the, from scratch with an individual of like, can you trust me? You know, like we're here for you. Like we're, we're with you in this, but it's hard. And sometimes it gets to a point, to be honest, where it's just like, okay, I'm not the person to do this anymore because you're, we've come to a place where we've come to a place where it's you as the survivor has gotten everything that you can from me. And now you're not trusting me in the same way that I can do more for you. Because sometimes it's just that tension of like, Oh, you're just trying to control me or you're just trying to this, or you're trying to manipulate. And I'm like, no, I'm trying to help you. I was going to say that that has to be a pretty normal sort of, I would think there's a phase out of this. And maybe in your experience, you can kind of speak to this, but it feels like a lot of things in their lives would have been transactional. And, and so, Hey, you're going to be taken care of. If you do this, that's what a coercive element. And, and so again, you think about the difficulties of the transition from that sort of lifestyle into a lifestyle where you're saying, no, we want you to do this because it's better for you. It has no benefit for us. Like you being better is the benefit that we get. We don't want anything else. That's got to be really difficult for, for a lot of these people to just grasp, to understand because they're so used to having to trade and barter and, and transact something to get something else. Yes, exactly. And one of my, that's always a word from me is I'm not here to get anything from you. I'm here because I believe it's a divine appointment. Every person that I actually meet, whether I talk to them on the phone for a moment or, you know, meet in person or they live in the house that we have for them. Like it's a divine appointment. It's like, you know, that prayer that you prayed last night when you went to bed and like, God help me here. I like, I'm not the savior. God's the savior, but he's connected me to you today. Right. And I have to be in the mindset of like, I'm not here to, I'm not here to rescue you. I'm not here to save you from your lifestyle. I'm here to support you and to provide a way out if I can. If you're ready to do what it takes to get out, then, then that's, you know, let me lead you. And if you're willing to do that, then we can do this. If you're not ready to do that, it's okay. Like, you know, I have a young lady who's moved into the house. Who's kind of like, she's just anxious because she hasn't had a stability and, and now she doesn't like the roommate and, you know, she's kind of like ready to fly again. And I'm like, girl, this is not like, she's been living in other people's homes and like it, it hasn't been her space. And I get that. But I'm like, this is different. This is, this is, this is your space. Like you have, you know, you have a roommate, but maybe God has you here to learn how to work through that with a roommate versus somebody who owns the space and you have to submit to everything and the ways that they're doing it. So it's time, you know, and so having those conversations and I, and I say to anybody, to anybody, you are not obligated to stay here. We're not holding you hostage. Like you can leave anytime you want, you know, you can just go. I'm like, I'm not going to encourage you to leave because I'm going to encourage you to like, think about that, but and take into consideration what you're surrendering right now. But I'm not going to force you to stay. Like you have this yourself. You have to want the, to do the hard work that it's going to take to get to the next place. And it is hard work. It takes a long time. Yeah. We're getting close to the end of the interview. And so I want to give you an opportunity to talk about how people can assist you in your

But it's out of, though I want to, it's out of the, it's out of the hearts that it has to happen, which is why, you know, rended heart, as I said in the beginning, is returned to the Lord, rent your heart, not your garments. It goes both ways. It's not just for the survivor, it's for the volunteers as well, the staff as well, because we have to rend our hearts. We get slapped a lot, you know? Like, it's a hard, it's a hard task to work with individuals who have been traumatized. And so, so I can't do this without Jesus. Like, you know, I don't always have the right answer. I don't maybe always have the right response, but I try my hardest to be like, okay, Lord, what are we doing? How do I do this? How do I respond in this situation? And so that's number one, it's like, we need that. I am looking for a couple of board members that really have a passion for this kind of ministry and want to help promote it and raise funds for it. So, you know, you can, you don't have to live in Kansas City to do that. You can be a part of this from wherever you are. I will say a couple of other things that you could be a part of from wherever you are. There's, you know, we can do events. I need somebody who can create our event space for us and that, or awareness opportunities. And again, that could be done with phone calls. I can go meet the person in person, but having some help like that is, and, and social media, social media is another area that people can do from wherever that can really take it and run with it. I'm not good at social media. I'm the old school person who doesn't know how to use stuff. And my kids are like, mom, you're technically challenged. You know, I have a five-year-old, but I also have a 31-year-old and a 28-year-old. And they're like, yeah, mom. And I'm like, I know. Don't talk about me like that, though. So, you know, those kinds of areas. If you live in the area, one of the big needs, again, before I say that, is housing. We need more housing. So you live in the area, you own real estate in the area, you own housing here, and you want to either donate something to us or you want to, you know, with a very low rent, rent us some space. I take very good care of the property. I make sure your property is taken care of. I can give you references on that. But there's always housing that is needed. With housing, there are house managers that are needed. There are other volunteers that are needed to drive someone to an appointment, so on and so forth, to really, like, manage over it. And so, you know, reach out. Go through the website, which is rendedheart.org, or my call number for Rended Heart is 816-343-4558. So you can always text me on that number or call it. It is Google Voice, so it's going to ask you who you are before I will answer it. And sometimes I can't answer it, so just leave a message. Or, again, just text the number and say, hey, I'm in the area, or I would like to do this, and then I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Being in the area of crisis intervention is 24-7, you know? And when it's quiet, it's nice. Not only because, you know, people are, nobody needs help right now, and that's a good thing. because when we're busy, it's like, it's sad that you're busy. You know what I mean? It's sad when I'm getting 10 phone calls a week. That's sad. It's sad when we don't have enough housing to help somebody get out of a situation, and they're really serious, and they want out, and they're in a difficult. So anyways, but, you know. And I have a five-year-old, and now I have a grandson. Woo-hoo! He's so cute. And he's just six months, so I help my daughter a lot when she goes to work. So I'm, like, juggling a lot of things, but I am totally here for you to reach out to. Well, that's really helpful, and we'll put, for those of you who are interested, the website RendedHeart.org will be in the show notes. We'll stick that phone number in there as well. And just encourage you, if you're in the Kansas City area, if you're not in the Kansas City area, think about plugging in with Rended Heart. I think this is a really necessary sort of bridge. Like I said, you know, our experience with foster care, we were with Safe Families, which if you know what that is, it's sort of one of these, it's not, you know, you don't quite need foster care, but you don't really have the family support to have your kids. And so I think those, those sort of bridge, what I would call a bridge ministry, they're really crucial because otherwise people start falling through the cracks. And so just totally appreciate what you're doing, and I'm so grateful you came on to share today and just thanks so much. Thank you. I really appreciate it. And it was a great time with you and hope to be back and appreciate the opportunity. Absolutely. All right, everybody, we're going to call it a day there. Thanks for being here with us for this episode of Thinking Christian, and we will catch you all in the next episode. Take care. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Hey, I'm Dr. Sean McDowell, professor, author, and host of the Sean McDowell Show. I tackle the hardest questions about God, truth, and culture, combining solid research with practical insight and engaging stories so you can build a confident, informed faith. Now available on the Life Audio Network to reach more listeners like you. Follow the Sean McDowell Show on your favorite podcast app or visit lifeaudio.com to start listening.