Denise Daniels and Elaine Howard Ecklund | Is Your Job a Calling? Rethinking Faith at Work

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'd like to welcome today two authors of the book, Working for Better, A New Approach to Faith at Work. So we're welcoming two guests, Elaine Howard-Eklund, and she is a professor of sociology at Rice University, and then Denise Daniels, who's a professor of entrepreneurship at Wheaton College. And so we're going to be talking about their book, Working for Better. And ladies, just great to have you here. So maybe what we could do is introduce yourselves just a little bit so people know the voice. If they're only listening, they know which one of you is Denise and which one of you is Elaine. So Denise, would you mind going first? Sure, thanks for introducing us, James. So I'm Denise, and I have been at Wheaton College teaching in the business and economics department there for the past five years. Prior to that, I was at Seattle Pacific University for 24 years teaching in the business school there. And a lot of my research in academia has been this intersection of faith and work. And so this book comes out of a lot of the research that Elaine and I have done. Fantastic. And Elaine, please. Sure, sure. Thanks, James, for having us. It's a real privilege to be with you. So I'm Elaine Howard-Eklund. I am a professor of sociology at Rice University, and I have been there, gosh, it's hard to believe this, I think I've been there for 17 years. So in Houston, Texas, a great city. And I have been working with Denise on this project for the past five years. And my previous research has been on science and faith, which some of your listeners might be interested in as well, and how scientists understand their faith commitments and how people of faith understand science. And your research focus, we talked a little bit about this before we started recording, but your research focus is really on religious tolerance in the workplace. Am I getting that right? Yeah, that is a main piece of what I do. So I direct, I should say I have the privilege of directing because it's been a really great gig, the Boniac Institute for the Study and Advancement of Religious Tolerance at Rice University. So I've had to think through what it means for me as a Christian to be directing an institute which directly deals with issues of religious tolerance, religious pluralism. Okay, very cool. Well, let's jump into the book a little bit, but I guess maybe before we jump into the actual substance of the book, I'd just be interested in hearing how you all conducted your research for the book. You outlined it a little bit there, but talk about sort of your journey getting into this, why you got into this, what brought the two of you together, maybe. And either one of you can start or I can just sort of assign a volunteer if you'd like. I'm sorry, this is Denise. We really started because we were friends and we wanted to like have something that we could do together. So it's sort of like both of them coming up with something that they want to play with together. It's like the adult version of that. Let's do a massive research project. That'll be fun. No, seriously. So I had been really interested in the faith and work intersection and Elaine, as you mentioned, had done a lot of work with sociological research methods in the science and faith intersection. And we said, you know, why don't we use these methods and apply it to faith in the workplace? And so we got together and we submitted a grant to the Lilly Endowment and they were really gracious to fund us. And so we spent about five years doing this data collection process where we surveyed almost 16,000 people across the United States in two different tranches, two different waves of surveys. And then we interviewed about 300 of them. And so we have just this massive data set that we were able to draw from to write this book and kind of think about and frame what does it mean to be a Christian in the workplace and how do we engage with people who might think very differently from us in terms of what it means to be a person of faith at work? And the only thing that was great, Denise, we think that our survey is the largest one that's ever been conducted of faith in the workplace in the United States. Another thing that's significant is that we did surveys before the pandemic and during the pandemic. So that was an interesting comparison. And we did, in addition to interviews and surveys, we also did focus groups with religious leaders, mainly pastors and everyday workers. So we got groups of people together and talked to them about these topics as well. Our survey was a national random sample. So we took in groups of people in the same proportions that they occur, you know, in the population naturally, except we did be really, we're really intentional about taking in more Jewish people and more Muslim people than are in the population naturally, just because we want to make sure and bring those voices to the table because those are two really important non-Christian voices in the U.S. Yeah, I found it interesting. I think at one point in your book, you talked about, I think it was Muslims, 2% of the population, but maybe 25%, if I'm remembering the statistics right, of the complaints about religious, not persecution, but prejudice within the workplace. Yeah, somewhere in there, which was sort of fascinating. So that's cool that you, so you arranged that so you make sure you had a significant, statistically significant enough sample within your population that you could actually represent that this is Muslim and Jewish sort of, these would probably generalize. That's exactly right. Yeah, very cool. Yeah, I'm going to quickly let my dog in, keep talking. Feel free, feel free. So one of the things I really liked about the book was that you did pull in sort of the perspectives of lay people in the churches, how churches are maybe failing to meet this ongoing need of people needing to contextualize their faith within the workplace, understand their work from a theological perspective, and some of the reasons that you offered for that within Christian churches. And so I'm wondering if we can maybe start there and just talk through from just the Christian perspective, as you think about these perceptions of work, where did, was there anything that was super surprising to you? And then how did you think through the solutions that were provided by the folks who were in your samples? Yeah, that's a really good question. Probably we have different things that are surprising for each of us, but for me, I think I was surprised. Also, I should just say for the listeners, Denise and I come from very different work environments ourselves. And so, you know, for those who don't know, Rice University doesn't have any specific faith commitment. It's a secular university and Wheaton College is of course a flagship Christian university. So we kind of, that was kind of cool too to come from those different work environments. So I was really surprised at how many people in our survey, Christians in particular, wanted to talk about faith at work, you know, have some kind of desire to live Christianly in workplaces. I think for me, and given the kind of work environment I'm part of, I was kind of surprised by that. But also not very many of them actually hear content in their congregations and particularly from their pastors about faith at work. And so that was a really big surprise for me. Also the information about calling was really important to me. Yeah, Denise, go ahead. Let me jump in about that first point that you made with where people want to be expressing their faith at work. I think it was less about people wanting to talk about faith, although that was a piece of it, but more a sense that people wanted to express their full identities and that included their faith commitments in the workplace. And then your second point that they didn't feel like they were hearing that from their churches or from their pastors, I think is exactly right. But what was interesting is that when we did those focus groups that Elaine talked about, when we did talk to pastors, particularly, they said, oh yeah, we talk about this a lot. And then we talked to those pastors' congregants separately and the congregants said, no, we don't really recall hearing anything about work. So there's a real disconnect, I think, between what pastors are thinking that they're doing and what people in the pews are understanding or experiencing or hearing. So I'm not saying that pastors aren't doing it, but it's not being felt that way by the parishioners. And so there's a mismatch. There's a disconnect somehow with that. And then the third point that you mentioned, Elaine, which also was a surprise to me, was this notion of calling. So we did ask people, to what extent do you experience your work as a calling? And across the board, when we surveyed people, and this is just everybody, so this includes Christians and non-Christians, only about 20% of people in our sample said that they thought of their work as a calling. So that seemed very low to me. And then we looked at specifically evangelical Christians thinking, well, here, certainly it should be higher. And it was higher, but it was only about 38% of evangelicals said that their work was a calling. And so it's still quite low. Overall, the overall sample of people who said that their work was a calling or they were experiencing a sense of calling in

I thought about those calling stats and some of the professions that people had a difficulty understanding that this was a spiritual exercise that you could really serve and honor God within this context, you know, that this was truly a calling and not just a job kind of aspect. I'm wondering how you thought about that from that systems perspective because it seems to me that some of this is just sort of socially ingrained within us that there's, you know, I do mostly administration at my job, right? I'm more of a behind the scenes guy, except on the podcast, I guess. But you know, I'm not a faculty member standing in front of students teaching. And when I think back on that experience when I had it, that always feels like it's full of more meaning than sitting and answering an email on a daily basis or, you know, managing a budget or, you know, what have you. But my sense after reading your book and what was sort of in my head was, I'm wondering how much of that is just more socially conditioned. People appreciate some of those outward acts more. There's a there's a greater societal value placed on those. And some of these other things can be behind the scenes because everybody needs to know to get they need to get done. But they're not sort of flashy or sexy in any sort of sense. Did you all think through any of that as you're looking at your data? Yeah, first of all, that's a super great observation, James. I think that's right. Oh, I'm sorry. I keep talking. No, you go. Yeah, there's a kind of like a double whammy perspective. And Denise and I talked about this. I mean, these issues are very personal to us as well. So we had this college of, you know, being friends and talking through the data and thinking about how it impacts our personal lives too. So I would put an even finer point on it that you have, James, even within our jobs, we value more the face-to-face contact, the helping others more than the answering email. A lot of derisive talk about email in these interviews. So I think there's two kinds of things that people are facing that in their church communities, there is not value or imagination really for how a work that, say, involves money, accounting work, these kinds of things, or work that involves heavy administration can be super valuable to God and people could even be called into that type of work. There's a lot more emphasis placed on serving others. So it's easy to see how being a social worker or a teacher serves others and is a calling and harder to see how working in finances. So there's a system within congregations and then workplaces themselves have that same kind of system where they tend to emphasize certain things as being more valuable than others. Yeah. Denise, anything to add there? You know, I mean, what Elaine said is exactly right. And what we did find when we talked to people is that they repeatedly said things like, well, work is a calling if it is allowing us somebody to serve another person directly. And so, you know, the medical professions or those kinds of things, that's a calling. But the work that I do, you know, working for whoever, maybe it didn't feel as much like a calling. And I think it's not just at the individual level. I think you're exactly right, James, that it's a systemic kind of influence that people are picking up on and kind of carrying into their perception of calling. I know, I mean, I obviously read through this in the book, but I'm wondering if you have perspectives that maybe I didn't catch, but there was a section about CEOs in there and whether they are male or female CEOs. I think if I recall, the female CEOs found greater meaning in their jobs than the male CEOs, if I'm recalling that correctly. Yeah. Do you want to correct that? I think that's not right exactly. Okay. Then I am recalling that incorrectly. I think what you're referencing is the idea that it had to do with those at the top of the organization and those at the bottom. And what we did find was that men at the top of the organizations were more likely to say that they engaged their faith in that role. And women at the top of the organizations were actually less likely to say that. That flipped a little bit when you got to the lower levels of an organization. And so women in the middle and the bottom were more likely to talk about their faith as a meaningful kind of resource for themselves. There's a couple of potential reasons for that. One is that women typically don't make it to the top of the organizations. Men are more likely to make it to the top of the organizations and the women who make it to the top are less likely to be Christians. And so what we might be capturing there has something less to do with Christianity and more to do with who is there. The kinds of people who are at the top where men who are Christians are more likely to make it to the top and women who are Christians are not as likely to make it to the top. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Do you think that may be a temperament issue of some sort? Honestly, I think it gets... Yeah, we couldn't examine it exactly because it's not what we were looking at. And so we came up with some hypotheses about it, which we don't know for sure. But our best guess here is that there's a lot of socialization in Christianity and in churches that does not encourage women to advance in organizations. And so whereas men might get a lot more accolades for that kind of thing, women are pulled in multiple directions, partly because of family, partly because of other things that the church reinforces in particular ways. And so it's less likely for women to feel like, oh, my Christian faith really makes me want to become a CEO and much more likely for a man to say something along those lines. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, because I mean, even within churches, and you all discussed this in the book, that sort of doctrinal structures that would preclude women from holding. Exactly. What I don't think many Christians would want to say they are the privileged positions within the church, but they are really the privileged positions within the church. I mean, being the pastor or the guy on stage, and I mean that really the guy on stage, is a privileged position. It puts you in a position to have more opportunity to do more things for good or bad. It just comes with those perks. And so there's a deficit there of how we, I would assume, a deficit of how we even think about that position as a calling versus something like, you know, again, sort of working administratively in a children's ministry capacity or teaching small children in Sunday school. Everybody loves to drop their kids off, but they're doing it so they can go see the guy on the stage. Yeah, I mean, women are not going to see role models of other women in power as much in churches as men are going to see role models. So really across the board, not just in evangelical churches, we did another side project with these data where we looked at the kind of leadership models that occur in churches, mainline churches, historic Methodist Presbyterians, largely Black and Latino congregations. So all kinds of Christian congregations don't have women in leadership. So it's just sort of doctrinally focused. Even ones that doctrinally do say it's okay still don't have women. So practically women are just going to be less likely to, you know, see people like themselves in power in congregations. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the calling data and how you thought through calling, how you thought through calling. So when you're asking the questions and forming out the research, you have to have some understanding of calling in place so that you can even ask the question. But did you find that there was confusion on the part of people who you're asking the question to or even during the focus groups, like these sort of disconnected aspects of, I don't even know what you're saying by calling. What is that? What is that? We did ask do you, when we interview people, we did ask, do you experience your job as a calling? And many people would say to us, well, what do you mean by that? And we tried really hard not to define it because what we're trying to do as social scientists here is to elicit, what do other people understand their work to be as a calling? And so we tried to kind of turn it back to them and say, well, tell us a little bit more about what you might consider to be a calling. And then that's where people would talk about, well, if you're serving others, then that would be a calling. The impact of the, yeah, I totally agree with Denise that the thing that I would add is that calling is a pretty distinctively Christian term. And we had people talk, even people who are not Christians, talk about calling in Christian ways, if that makes sense. So they like used Christian language of God inspiring them to do

getting a kind of sense that they ought to be doing something, even if it wasn't a specific sense from a Christian notion of God. So there's ways in which, historically, the whole notion of calling is very influenced by Christianity for good or bad. And so I think that's just important to point out that calling, that calling language should be very accessible to Christians because it's very much part of our heritage and our tradition. - And particularly so for Protestants. So historically, and we talk a little bit about this in the book, historically, through the Middle Ages, the notion of calling really was a calling to God, a calling to the monastery, a calling to the priesthood. And that changed with the Protestant Reformation where this idea of all work could be a calling. You don't have to become a priest in order to really be serving God. And Luther, Martin Luther, was very strong about this, and he wrote quite a bit about this. And so we as Protestants really draw tremendously from this, the last 500-some years of history with this notion of calling that can be applied to the workplace. And so, while again, this kind of gets back to our sense of surprise and maybe a little bit of disappointment of, oh, even Protestants don't really think of their work much as a calling, although they do think of it more so than the general population. But generally speaking, it's quite, quite low. And so then when we did start to get into, well, what do people think about when they do use this term, what are they getting at? And it seemed like there were a couple of different dimensions that people were referencing when they said my job is a calling. And so on the one hand, that was one dimension that people talked about was this notion of intrinsic versus extrinsic to the work itself. And so some people said, well, my job is a calling because the work that I am doing is somehow intrinsically meaningful. And so the actual tasks that I am doing or the product that I'm producing somehow has impact in a positive way on the people around me or on the world in some sense. And on the other hand, we had some people say, well, my job itself, what I do maybe isn't very meaningful, but I know God has called me to it because what my job allows me to do impacts other people outside of the workplace or beyond the tasks of the job itself. And so we called those an extrinsic approach to calling. That was one dimension. So people talked about both ends of that dimension, intrinsic and extrinsic. And then people also talked about this idea of what we initially called distal and proximal. And then our publisher said, nobody knows what that means. Can you say near the workplace and far away from the workplace? And we're like, okay. So that's what it says in the book is close to work or farther away from work. But this idea of where you're serving somebody is either really close to the work itself that you're doing or maybe it's farther away from the work that you're doing. And so these two dimensions, the intrinsic and extrinsic and the proximal and distal, we can combine together and create this two by two framework that gives you four different cells or four different quadrants that allow you to think about calling in a slightly different way. And we had people that described their sense of calling in each of those four different ways. I wanna be clear, though, that these are not mutually exclusive. And so while people tended to identify themselves in sort of one of the quadrants, and so for example, let me give you an example of one of the quadrants. Let's say the intrinsic and away from the workplace quadrant. And this would be where somebody says, my job is meaningful because it allows me to serve the world, that the goods and services that I produce have a positive impact. They contribute to the common good in some way. So we had somebody who worked at a fast food restaurant who said, the particular restaurant that I work in provides actually healthy food for people and I feel like that's a meaningful thing that I'm doing. I'm serving people who need nutritious food to eat and my job allows me to do that. That would be an example of that calling as kind of a common good contribution. So, but people don't have to remain in one quadrant. You can actually try to identify ways of calling across all four quadrants, which we really feel like is the right way to approach calling and thinking through sort of a thicker theology of calling that allows you to engage a sense of calling in multiple ways and not just a singular approach to calling. - And we just look at it that way will really allow people to more a broader range of people to see their work as a calling. Denise did a great job of developing this framework and it's just been so useful for us. You know, people who do work that, you know, I think some do not see as a calling. We're able to really see their work as a calling in a robust way. You know, another quick example that comes to mind is we interviewed someone in a meatpacking plant who really had imagination for how he could, you know, help people in the plant. So he was really relational with folks and supported them when they had marital upheaval and in all kinds of ways. So he didn't see his calling really as related to the actual, the act of packing the meat. What he saw his calling related to was the helping people. So it was really extrinsic to that work environment, but it was near to the work environment. He was exercising that calling within the context of his work, but in a way that was outside the work tasks themselves. - I mean, I think I've seen this work out. I've obviously seen it work out in my own career, but my wife's as well. She was a pharmacist by training, worked in a pharmacy for a really long time, was more involved in patient care in that perspective. She always worked in hospital systems. And then when she became a chief pharmacy officer, she was more distant from the actual care that was being taken place and she sort of overseeing the entire system. And as we had conversations about that, we talked through these categories implicitly. Obviously we didn't have them with us when we were doing it, but like when I look back on the conversation, when I was reading that aspect of calling, I was like, yeah, we talked through all of these different categories and we're kind of wrestling with how do we rethink this? What does it look like to be that, you know, more distant from the patient care, but still obviously facilitating a lot of that and doing, you know, work that is meaningful in that setting. That I think that was one of the things I sort of wanted to ask the question about. You had these different jobs all the way ranging from, I think you noted like, you know, dancing in a strip club and, you know, working in a bar, serving alcohol, those kinds of things where people really felt like those were not meaningful jobs. All the way up to something like, you know, like a caretaker or something, a healthcare worker, you know, a pastor, something that was much more prone to provide you with that sense of calling. And then kind of everywhere in between. And I guess I'm wondering, did you notice anything, number one, where the high calling professions tended to have structures around them that would reinforce, hey, your job's a calling versus some of the lower calling professions where they're a little looser. They're a little more, I think you even mentioned the gig economy sort of idea. They're much more individual. And so unless you actually do the work to figure this out, you don't have a lot around you sort of supporting you from a systemic perspective to say, this is a calling. And I'll just give the example of, I had a guest on to talk about mission integration in Catholic healthcare a few episodes ago. And so the Catholic healthcare system is invested in these mission integration professionals who work with everyone there to help them understand why this is a missional endeavor, how it fits with Catholic social teaching and with the healing ministry of Jesus. Well, you don't get that if you're a bricklayer usually. That's right. You know, and so I'm wondering if you saw that correlation or whether I'm making that up just from reading your book. - No, we did. So I think it's important that you raised the gig economy. We probably did not interview as many gig economy workers as we would have wanted to, but there definitely is a sense that you don't have the kind of social structures and even at both work and church. So I want to, since we're specifically speaking to a Christian audience, I want to bring the church into and what churches can fill a real need there in supporting workers who don't traditionally have these kinds of structures. Healthcare is one industry where people are more likely to have the structures, although huge variation across the roles in healthcare. So we remember interviewing someone who like took care of computing systems for a healthcare organization and he was like, yeah, I see how the nurses and doctors, they're right with patients. They totally see their work as a calling. And that's, you know, really important. But I just don't understand how I'm just entering numbers, like how that is a calling at all. And obviously we all know if you've been on the receiving end of not having records transmitted correctly at a doctor's office, you know that that is a major deficit, right? Like, you know that that work really matters that, you know, the patient suffers as a result. And so I can definitely see how that could be a calling, but he obviously didn't have that kind of network in his life that would allow him to. - Yeah. Did you find people who really enjoyed their work, but

It still didn't feel like it was a calling. You know, I mean, were those two necessary? That's a good question. That's a really great question. I'm thinking of, I don't know whether you all have read it, but Shop Class is Soulcraft. Yes, I have read it. When I read that book, I do a lot of weight training and just as a hobby, and I love doing weight training, but I never felt any particular calling to it when I was doing it as a personal trainer. So I loved it. I enjoyed the job, but if I were pressed and said, is this a calling? Do you find a great deal of spiritual meaning in your work? I would have identified more like, yeah, the moments when I get to share my faith with people, I find meaning there. But overall, I didn't really see it as a calling. And so I'm wondering if you found more of that or whether I'm just weird. That's a good question. That's a great question. That's a really great question, yeah. As I'm thinking right now, kind of through some of those interviews, I think that there probably would be a correlation between high levels of engagement and work and enjoyment of work and a sense of calling. But it wasn't one-to-one. So I think there are examples of people, and you're a good one, of somebody who enjoyed their work but didn't necessarily see it as a calling, probably because they didn't have the frameworks to think about how could this be a way that I'm serving God. And even the example that you just gave, James, of you didn't feel like it was a calling to do the work of training unless you could be sharing your faith with somebody and that felt meaningful. And that would be one of the quadrants that we would talk about in terms of calling. But there's three other quadrants that you could also be trying to think through and engage, could that work really be a calling. And I think it is incumbent on both pastors, church leaders, and also leaders in organizations to try to help frame these concepts for people so that people can engage their work in a way that does feel more meaningful to them. We have questions at the end of each of the chapters, and some of those are targeted particularly to workplaces and workplace leaders. Some of them are targeted particularly for church leaders or faith leaders in various contexts for how they might think through the issues that we raise in each chapter with respect to how they might live it out in their own lives or extend it to others. So I do think there's a responsibility that people have to try to engage others on this. Do you have a sense of what's... And you give a lot of great suggestions in the book for how this can sort of be built into one's life, either individually or more on the corporate level. But I'm wondering if you have a sense, just after doing all the research and reflecting on a little bit, what really needs to be fixed here? You know, you mentioned the disconnect between pastors feeling like they're talking about this and congregants going, nah, I've never heard that in my life. You know, what's the real disconnect? What do you think is... Why do you think that disconnect exists? And do you think that there's a set of messages? You know, is it this four-quadrant calling kind of component that's really lacking, talking and walking people through that? How do you bridge that sort of gap so that Christians at least can begin to think about their work as calling in an appropriate manner? Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. I think that maybe it would be helpful for the listeners to know a little bit about why we think it's so important to see your work as a calling potentially. So as Christians, we think that seeing your work as a calling helps you do better work that potentially serves God and the kingdom better. So we do think that there's like a very theological reason to try to imagine, have a broader sense of imagination about why our work is a calling. In terms of businesses and other kinds of organizations, we found some utilitarian benefit to people viewing their work as a calling. People who view their work as a calling are more committed to an organization, find more meaning and purpose in their work, are more committed both to their work organization and to their jobs themselves. There is a kind of potential ugly side of calling, which is that sometimes if people feel highly called to their work, it blinds them a bit to the potential problems in a workplace, to own discrimination or others' discrimination. Like, oh, I so fortunate to be called here. I should kind of, not to be pejorative, but I should kind of suck it up if something bad is happening, right? Or and even like just to myself, but you know, if something bad is happening to someone else, it may be a little bit less, a little bit more resistant to seeking out change. Denise has had a lot of experience interacting with pastors and church leaders around this material. And I think one quick thing that comes to the top is that, you know, it would be not to be so shameless about our book, but it would be helpful to have discussion groups in congregations with the communities of workers who have similar kinds of jobs, if that's available. Some bigger congregations could pull that off and talking through these things. Sometimes you just need someone else in an aligned occupation to help you have a bit of a broader imagination than you do. Yeah. Okay. Pretty easy, actually, to, to, to your initial question, James, which is, you know, where's the breakdown? Whose fault is it? I think it's pretty easy to like point fingers and say, well, it's the church's fault or, well, you know, people in organizations aren't doing what they should do to help people engage in experiences of meaning at work. And there's maybe some truth in all of those finger points, but I think probably the most useful approach is to look at your own sense of your own span of control, your own, to, to what extent do you have autonomy and can you make changes in your own way of thinking or in the ways that you engage other people. So rather than saying, well, pastors should do this better, which is might be true, unless you, unless you're a pastor, that's probably not a useful thing to say. If you are a pastor, I'd encourage you to read the book and think about things that you can do better. But if you're not a pastor, what are things that you can do as an individual? What, as a, maybe an entry-level employee to really engage these concepts, these theological concepts in the workplace. If you're a leader at work, I think you have a lot of autonomy as well and ways that you have power to shape the experience that other people have. And so I'd love for people to kind of think about what's my responsibility here. And we do provide some suggestions throughout the book for people kind of in all of those domains, whether you're a leader of a church or even a nonprofit, faith and work kind of organization or a parachurch organization, or whether you're just an entry-level employee or whether you're somebody who has responsibility for others at work. There are all sorts of different ways that we could approach those questions. Yeah, it was just, I think my mind, as I was reading through the book, kept going back to instructions to bond servants in scripture, particularly 1 Corinthians 7, where Paul's talking to bond servants and he said, you know, he's talking about remaining as you're called, you know, you can serve the Lord. You don't have to change your situation in order to serve the Lord. You can remain as you're called and serve the Lord. And he says to bond servants, you know, if you're a bond servant, remain a bond servant. But obviously if you can get your freedom, go for it. And there's something about a sanctified ambition there, I think that is sort of interesting that he's asking them to serve the Lord first and then to take the opportunities that God brings into their life as they come, as opposed to sitting back and saying, well, I'll serve the Lord when I get out of this situation or that situation. I found those sort of fascinating. And I think the other aspect that I kept coming back to was the idea of partiality. There's such a deep partiality that I think a threat of partiality that comes through your book. It's sort of, and I'm not saying you all were partial. I'm saying that there's a, if you see the palpable partiality of how these things sort of play themselves out. So certain positions, when I was reading through your data, I was kind of like, well, yeah, that seems obvious that that person would be more excited about doing that job. And it would seem obvious that this person is less excited about doing this job, that they see it as less of a calling, that they find less meaning in it, those kinds of things because we tend to privilege this person over this person. And so there's help to figure out

It's a really complex train of thought there that I really like thinking through with you. We tried to think about, you know, under what conditions is it a Christian's responsibility to bring some changes to the systems? And we think that leaders probably have special kinds of responsibilities that maybe others don't have. And so in the questions at the end of each chapter, we try to break some out and specifically for, you know, workers of all types, but specifically for leaders and specifically for leaders of ministries or leaders of churches. Like there may be some responsibility that's particular to those kinds of roles as well. And then, you know, as Christians, there's a responsibility to think through how your work is meaningful, how you're called to your work no matter the kind of work you're doing, as long as it's honorable work, there ought to be ways in which you can really express Christian faith through your work in a way that exemplifies a calling and a broader sense of meaning and purpose. And then I think there may be some kind of responsibility, this is a notion I'm just toying with, there may be some kind of special responsibility that Christian leaders have to help entire workplaces understand a notion of calling and to be very thoughtful about how we might do that in a way that's not marginalizing to those who are not part of a Christian tradition. There might be broad ways in which we bring that in kind, that kind of Christian, that lovely Christian sensibility we have to all kinds of workplaces and all kinds of people. There may be a special sort of super calling there as well in our leadership roles. Yeah, that we should probably address that before we come too close to the end here, that principle pluralism idea. I found that pretty fascinating and I, again, as I was sort of thinking about it, my mind went to Jesus visiting sinners, right? These are folks that were not excluded from Jesus's ministry, even though they needed to accept him to be included in the kingdom. But he was not leaving them out. These people were not pushed to the margins and sort of left aside for the gospel. They were drawn into it and given the opportunity to hear Jesus's message and to respond to him with faith in the same way that anybody else would have. And so when I was reading through that principle pluralism, that's sort of where my head went, but I'd love to hear you all talk a little bit more about that. I know that's sort of a sideways thought on it. Yeah, well, we really, so we introduced this idea of principled pluralism, which we didn't make up, but we drew from a number of other writers and thinkers in this area. But it's this idea that in a pluralistic context where people who don't share your beliefs, how do we engage appropriately? And the idea here is that you fundamentally hold on to your own beliefs and you also view the other as somebody made in God's image. So those two things are the kind of principles of principled pluralism. That doesn't mean that you have to believe that what they believe is equal to what you believe. So it doesn't necessarily give comparable level of, you know, all truth is, you know, anybody can have their own belief system and all paths lead to God. It's not what it's saying. It could be saying something very specific that you believe that your path is actually the right path at the same time. You don't denigrate any other person and you allow them to live out their life the best way that they can. And in fact, you might support them in living out their life the way that they believe is right. And so it's this nuanced approach to how do we engage with people who are different? How do we engage with people who have different beliefs than we do without letting go of what we believe, without and without denigrating the other? So both of those are the tensions and the challenges there. When we do that, we have to come with some level of humility that we might not know everything, that we might actually have gotten some things wrong. And it allows us the openness to hear from the other about what they believe and why. But it also opens the door for us to then share what we believe and why. And so it hopefully leads to a situation and a circumstance and an engagement with the other that is positive and allows for real respect for each person. And some Christians get really scared when we present this material. You know, I mean, it's a kind of hard thing, I think, for people to wrap their minds and their hearts around. But it has been really profound for us to personally wrestle with what it means, like what the whole the Imago Dei, the image of God, what it really means that everyone is made in the image of God, not just Christians. And so and that that very Christian sensibility, I think, has profound implications for how we treat others in workplaces and that sense of intellectual humility. So we do believe as Christians that if other people are walking around and living and breathing and doing good in the world, that even though they may, you know, they may not be Christians, that there is a little bit of God image going on in them, you know, already and that we may learn something from that. And so I think that's really important to keep in mind that as Christians, we're learners and that profound intellectual humility goes a long way towards opening space for Christian for distinctively Christian engagement, too. So it's it really it really does help. Well, that's that seemed to be borne out in your data, too, correct? That that actually evangelicals, if I'm remembering right, which I wasn't earlier, so always a danger. But I think evangelicals sort of learned more from other folks about how to exercise their faith. Am I wrong about that? No, you're exactly right. And it was openness in those. Yeah. Openness in those conversations. It does require this notion of principled pluralism really does require you to know what you believe and why. So it starts with really having a good grasp on your own faith and understanding the depth and the details of it before you start engaging with someone else. But it doesn't, it's not this privatization of faith that's not saying, OK, we all have these different beliefs. We're just not going to talk about them. It's saying, hey, we can we can talk about these things. We can talk about them in respectful ways. We can listen carefully across differences. And it doesn't mean that you are going to change my mind or necessarily that I'm going to change yours, but it does require you to be respectful and listen carefully. Yeah. And I think in an odd way, we sort of want that as Christians because we are trying to share our faith. And so if we're the only ones doing it, it's going to seem really odd and a little unfair. Right. But if everybody's doing it, we can have these sort of more open conversations. And hopefully there won't be these sort of structural or prejudicial challenges that people are having to get past. I mean, I think those are real obstacles to the gospel sometimes because they see, well, Christians have all these rights. But as as your book really pointed out, Muslims and Jews seem to have far more problems in the workplace than Christians do. And so it's like, why would why would we want that hurdle to be in their way, sort of reinforcing this idea that they are unloved or unwanted even just in their workplace? Why wouldn't we want that to be gone so that there's a greater openness to hearing and listening and not a protectiveness or defensiveness that could develop? Absolutely. We had some really beautiful conversations with some of the folks we talked with, some of the folks we interviewed from non-Christian faith traditions who talked about their interest in having these conversations and trying to understand what is it that different people believe. And there was a real openness, it seemed, on the part of a number of folks that we talked with wanting to have these conversations, wanting to engage with the real person that they're working with and not just the surface level person who does the work. Well, I, we're getting close to time. I really enjoyed this book. I'm wondering if you have any just sort of parting thoughts of things that we didn't cover that you can just throw out for listeners, give them a little bit more of a teaser for the book. Elaine, maybe I'll start with you. Anything? We kind of go through the whole book. We have this model where we go from, you know, how we thought about faith and work in the past in Christian circles and how we think we ought to be thinking about it in these new times, not to denigrate what's been done before, but just to say these are new times, new realities. They really call for a new approach, a new approach for Christians to engage their faith and work. And I hope that people will see that kind of movement throughout the book. The book's really short. The chapters are short. There's discussion questions at the end. And I guess just the last thing that I'll say is that we end the book with this chapter on rest as a kind of closer and just the importance of seeing those Sabbath principles throughout our lives. And we want to make sure that people understand that that's there as well. And that's just vitally important to think through in the context of faith and work, that not all of our lives are our work, and we really work for the glory of God. And part of that understanding means that we have this profound need to rest. Yeah, very cool. I did my dissertation on Sabbath, so I was, I resonated with the rest chapter, but. Yeah, I was gonna talk about that rest chapter as well, because it's not something that we've talked about with the rest of the book.

I think you summarized it really beautifully. I think that's a great, we can end it there. Well, very good. I really appreciate the conversation. I'm sorry we don't have more time. I think we could probably go for another hour or so, but um, we only have so much time. And so, Denise, Elaine, thanks so much for being on the show. Listeners, I'd highly recommend this book. If you have any questions about theology, work, faith and work, how your work is your calling, those kind of questions, this is a great book to get. The link to the book will be in the show notes, and it's an IVP title, and they give us a 20% discount if you buy it at the publisher's website. So follow the link, use the code, and go pick up Working for Better. Thanks again, ladies, for being here. Really appreciate it. Thank you, James. It's really been fun. Very good. All right, everybody take care, and we will catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. What if your next chapter is your best one yet? Hi, I'm Monica, host of Hope for the Journey, the podcast for women over 40 who are ready to rise, rebuild, and reclaim their story. Each week, you'll hear powerful comeback stories from women who've walked through the fire and come out stronger. If you're navigating change or dreaming about what's next, you're not alone. Follow Hope for the Journey on your favorite podcast app and find the hope that you've been looking for.