Carl Amari

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I am excited today to welcome Carl Amari. Carl is a radio, TV, and film producer, and he spent a number of years producing audio Bibles, which we're going to talk a little bit about and dig into. He's also the host of a national radio show. And so welcome, Carl. Thanks for being here, man. How are you doing? Hey, James. Wow, appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, I think probably just let the guests get to know you a little bit and what, you know, who you are, what you do. But maybe tell us a little bit about, you know, where you came from, what's your story, how did you get into radio, TV, and film, and, you know, where you, you know, how that came about. Well, you know, it came about through my love of radio drama. So when I was a kid, you know, I'm 61 now, so when I was a kid in the 70s, watching Batman and Twilight Zone and Wild Wild West, you know, I had no idea that there was this medium years prior called the Golden Age of Radio, where The Shadow and Jack Benny and Gunsmoke and Dragnet were on the radio. I had no idea. Of course, my parents grew up, grew up listening to those shows. But when I was 12, I was at a sleepover at my friend's, and we were being rowdy, and his father put on a cassette tape of a scary radio show. And I, you know, all of a sudden now I'm seeing these pictures in my mind as opposed to watching them, right? So I'm seeing all this, this action happening in my, in my theater of my mind. And I was absolutely, I gotta tell you, James, I was absolutely blown away by this experience. And I, so I started to learn all I could about these shows that were on the air before the advent of television. So way before TV was ever invented, 30s, 40s, and 50s, these great, these great radio shows. So that, that kind of got me on a path. And so when I was in, in high school, I was collecting all of these shows from various, you know, companies that were selling them. And then when I got into college, I, I took communications and got on the radio, started a radio show on my college station. And I was playing, playing these radio programs. And believe it or not, I got a cease and desist letter from, you've heard of the man, the man called the man of a thousand voices, Mel Blanc. Have you ever heard that name before? I have, yeah, yeah. Well, his, you know, he did all the voices to, you know, Bugs Bunny and Porky Pig. Sure. So I played one of his radio shows and I got a cease and desist letter from his attorney. I was, as you could say, kind of scared about it, you know, a little bit nervous about it. And then learned that these shows, you know, are still, many of them are still copyrighted and things like that. So then I kind of turned it into a business where I would contact George Burns, who I got to be very good friends with over the years, and Jerry Lewis and Bob Hope and, you know, the Jack Benny estate, Red Skelton. And I started licensing these radio shows and then put them back on the radio. And, you know, because I just loved them so much, I didn't want to see them, you know, go away. I wanted other people to experience, you know, what I, what I was enjoying. And so I started a business where I was not only broadcasting these shows, and I still do today. I still have this, a radio show today where I play these, these great radio programs. So, you know, how did I get into the Bible side of it? Well, I'm going to try to, try to point you in the direction. So, I, I love these radio dramas and I always thought, wow, you know, you get this such an interesting experience with your mind's eye, right? The theater of the mind. And I grew up listening to single reader audio Bibles, like James Earl Jones and the Alexander Scorby Bible. And I, as much as I enjoyed those Bibles, I, I started thinking, man, wouldn't it be great to, to get amazing actors together and have a radio drama of the Bible? You know, take you back to biblical times to take you back and walking with Jesus and, you know, meeting his disciples, you know, in the theater of the mind kind of a realm. And so I just always kind of dreamt about doing that and never really pursued it. But then I happened to be, find myself in Rome on the set of The Passion of the Christ with my good pal, Jim Caviezel. And, and I can tell you how that happened, but I was literally on the set of The Passion of the Christ with Jim. And in, you know, there's a lot of downtime when you're making a movie. So I started telling him about this, this passion that I had and this idea that I had about, you know, having great actors kind of play the roles of, of the, of the new and old testaments and, and to create this. And he was like, oh my gosh, let's do that. So he and I, after, after The Passion came out, he and I went to work. He, he played Jesus in an audio Bible for me. And then it just turned out to be this immense project. I started with the New Testament, never thinking I was going to produce the Old Testament. I did the New Testament and then it was such a, it was such a hit with people that I did the Old Testament. But so that, you know, I can go into more detail, but that's to give you an idea. That's how I created my, the first audio Bible. And that's called the Word of Promise, the Word of Promise. And it's, am I correct, Thomas Nelson? Is that correct? Yes, Thomas Nelson publishers. They were, you know, when I, you know, when The Passion of the Christ came out and it was such a, you know, massive hit and I had Jim kind of signed on the dotted line to play Jesus in an audio Bible. It wasn't real difficult to find a publisher that would get behind that project. It was, you know, pretty much, we pitched it to a couple of different places and they were all interested to, to have this audio Bible. But I remember it was really kind of, kind of interesting sitting around a table with their Thomas Nelson's executive team and saying to them, well, you know, this is probably with all these stars, with the New Testament, it's probably going to be like a million five to do it right with the theater, you know, creating all the Foley and, you know, getting a, an orchestra and, you know, how we intended to do it. It's a 22 hour audio. And they, there was this look on everybody's face and they were like, do you, do you know what, you know, what it costs us to do an audio Bible here? And, you know, and I said, no, what? And they said, maybe $25,000. And I said, well, it, you know, it won't, this won't sound like that. This will be something, you know, massive. And they just thought I was out of my mind. Yeah. But I, I was able to, I was able to kind of back my idea with my, some of my own capital. And then they came in as a partner as well. And then it came out and it was massively successful. It's, do you see, so, well, I think, number one, I wanted to say I used to, when I was a kid, my parents bought me old records of the Superman radio programs. I think they were put out by Kellogg's. And so, you know, you'd be listening and then there'd be the Kellogg's advertisements in the middle of them. But I used to listen to those records all the time. Loved them. Yeah, so I definitely have a soft spot for what you're talking about. I mean, those were really cool. I remember them so vividly. That's right. That's right. That's right. All audio. And so I definitely have a soft spot. And then I can remember when I, early on when I was a Christian, I, I was in Chicago at the time. And so they had unshackled, which was, you know, I, I don't know whether it's still going, but I mean, that's been relatively recent. Yeah. So, I mean, that was such a fantastic show and it was that same sort of audio drama kind of feel to it. Very cool. Do you see, you know, with the renaissance of podcasting, and I know we've got YouTube and, you know, we're recording this on audio and video at this point, but it just feels like to me, there's some really good podcasts that do this same sort of audio drama and

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Yeah, I mean, when you think about it, like, these radio dramas and like these audio Bibles, they really are the precursor to podcasting, right? Because, you know, like the term podcasting wasn't invented till 15 years ago or 20 years ago, right? So these radio dramas were on, you know, you can turn on your radio and hear a theater of the mind type of, you know, show. I really think that there's a real appetite for radio drama, whether it's from that time or even produced now. Like these audio Bibles that I did, I've done five different ones now. They're all in that theater of the mind kind of format. And I believe that they would be incredibly popular as a podcast as well. Yeah, absolutely, James. Do you see that, you know, you mentioned using sort of the right actors for this, the bigger named actors, the people who have more experience. How crucial is that when you're thinking about, you know, because I think part of it, some people might think, and honestly, I'm wondering, I guess, it's just reading, you know, it's just putting out a drama. But there is something to being able to act the part that is necessary to be able to do this. And so how important are the actors to actually pulling off the kind of thing that you pull off? Huge, hugely important because, you know, these really are not a reading. They're really a performance. So, like, even though they are reading a script, they have to bring it alive. They have to make it, you know. And there's a really a technique to it. Like, you can I can read something to you or I can act it. I'm not an actor, but when you have a great actor, what they can do with the written word is incredible. So it was so important to not only have believers, you know, I mean, like, we put out the word to the Hollywood community. This is what we're doing, you know, through an agency. This is what we're doing. If you're interested and if you're a believer, if you're a Christian, you know, we want to we want to hear from you. And with the with the full Bible there, there were like 700 roles, you know. So so we we were getting I was getting calls and fielding calls from people like John Voight and Richard Dreyfuss and Marissa Tomei. And, you know, it just, you know, John Rhys-Davies, Michael York, you know, incredible, incredible believers and actors. And I would say to them, you know, what role, what role do you you know, you've read the Bible. What what do you think, you know? And it's so interesting because in that process and it was a long process because the full Bible of the word of promise took me two and a half years to produce that. You know, it ended up being 98 hours on 79 CDs. It's available via digital download, too. But this, you know, this incredible, you know, we scored it in Bulgaria with the Bulgarian Symphony Orchestra. It is, you know, every piece of music is fit for that scene. It's like, you know, we were like, like how you would a movie, you know, it was it was composed for that scene. So it's not like canned music. Yeah. And the Foley, you know, the literally the sound effects were all created for it. But getting back to the actors, it's so important. Like, I remember Richard Dreyfuss having a conversation with him over the phone just before Zooms, you know, and we were on the phone. And I'm like, you know, Mr. Dreyfuss, I'm a huge fan. And, you know, but I'm going to I'm going to say a name. I'm going to say a character in the Bible that I'd like you to play. And I'll bet you're going to think, why would Carl want me to play this role? And I said to him, I'd like you to play Moses. And, you know, when you when people think of Moses and they watch The Ten Commandments. Yeah, stuff you get away from Charlton Heston. Huge voice, Charlton Heston, you know, but biblically, when you when you read about the character of Moses, he was not an eloquent speaker. He wasn't a deep voice speaker. He actually there's even some kind of reference that he might have even had a speech impediment. Yeah, a stutter of some sort. Yeah. So so I said, I don't want a big booming, incredible voice. I just want an incredible actor for this role. And you're the guy. And he said, you know, Carl, it's so funny that you should ask me to play Moses because I have to tell you, I am a Jewish scholar and I read the Bible every day. And I have always fantasized about playing the role of Moses in something. And here you are calling me today and asking me to play Moses. And he I mean, it was it's a big role. I mean, I remember we were recording him in in Carlsbad, San Diego, you know, and he he would he would just is busy of an actor as he is. He would go to that studio and he would just knock out this, you know, I mean, it's a big, big part. And just just just an amazing experience for me as as a producer to have someone of that of that, you know, magnitude playing a role in my audio. It was just it was incredible. So when you did the audio scripting, did you have to reconceptualize? I mean, it's not so it's not a reading of the Bible, but how did the scripting of it actually work? How did they how did you create those dramas, you know, as far as the yeah, that just scripting process, I guess, would be what it is. Well, it was really yeah, that that was super important because you have to have I mean, obviously, we didn't want to deviate from the scripture at all. So the only thing that we I hired two priests, actually, that are script writers, you know, but that knew the knew the text and knew the scriptures backwards and forwards. But they were really talented writers as well. And what they did, the only thing that we removed or changed from scripture was he said, she said. So there was no need to have he said or she said in it because they're talking to each other. Yeah. And and so they literally, you know, they started with the New Testament and that took maybe three, four months. But then I said, hey, guys, you know what? We're doing the Old Testament now. And I remember them like ready to fall off their chair like what? You know, so but yeah, I mean, so I had them along with a with a theologian who was the director. The director was a theologian and it was really important to to follow the scripture. And you know, I got to tell you, it's it was it's so crazy. I mean, even today I will still get people that will reach out to me and I and I produced this audio Bible, you know, 15 years ago. I'll have people come, you know, say to me, I was listening to the word of promise and I said, wait a minute, that's not in the Bible. That that that they don't say that in the Bible, you know, and they will they'll take up, they'll take their Bible and they'll look and they'll find it. And what that tells me is that when you read the Bible and when you hear it performed for you like a movie in your mind with incredible actors, you get a better understanding of the word because, you know, you're reading it. It's it's kind of one dimensional, but when you're listening to it with this theater of the mind approach, you just understand it so much more and you understand what God, which, you know, obviously was written by God, what his intent was for you to understand. It's interesting. So I went through seminary and one of the first instructors I had who was teaching biblical interpretation, what he would have us do is he would have us uh go through an operation on our computers. We'd copy and paste a portion of the Bible over like a full book, let's say. Copy and paste in a word document and then find and replace all of the uh chapter headings and uh verse numbers, like just get rid of all of those and create one solid text. And then he encouraged us to read them aloud at home. Like to actually not just read them silently, but to actually voice them at home. And I, when I did it, I always found it helpful. There was something about having to speak the words and I know it's not exactly the same thing, but, but I

reading it and kind of echoing it in your head, you're actually saying it, it does give you a different sort of familiarity with what's going on. You can't sort of quote skip over things in your mind, you know, which I think a lot of times when we're reading silently, we kind of tend to, you kind of zone in, zone out, but when you're doing it, that audible aspect just really does help. Very cool. It's more sensory, you know, I mean, it's not only, you know, your eyes are reading it, you know, but you're hearing it, and then when you add multiple actors and music and sound effects, it's pretty powerful. Yeah, I believe it. That's pretty amazing. So what do you, how do you see, I know you're doing your national radio show, but do you think about podcasting as a potential medium to do more of this? I mean, I think of stories in church history and, you know, like, it just feels like there's so much there that you could play with. Yeah, I'm really, I'm working on finding, right now, I'm working on finding like the perfect host to take one of my audio Bibles, probably start with just the New Testament. I've done other ones besides The Word of Promise. I did one called The Word of God. I did another one called The Breathe Audio Bible, which Kevin Sorbo was in, and he's incredible in that. And The Word of God has Kristen Bell as Mary Magdalene. And, you know, it has just so many incredible actors, Sean Astin and Blair Underwood and Malcolm McDowell plays Caiaphas in it. And, you know, this is incredible. But I'm looking, I'm really searching right now to find the right host to do a podcast with one of the audio Bibles and probably have it, like, you know, the New Testament is about 22 hours. So that would break down to be like maybe like 52 episodes of like 23 minutes or 24 minutes, something like that. And do something where that host can kind of set the stage for the listener and then take them back to biblical times, right? To when Jesus was walking the earth with the New Testament, starting, obviously, with Matthew, you know, and then, you know, running through the Gospels and all the way to Revelation and to like set it up and then say, next time, we're going to, you know, explore this, you know, and then, you know. And so it's right now, I'm in that search mode. And if I find the right host, I want to produce a really cool sort of maybe like a walk through the New Testament type of thing. Yeah, that's pretty amazing. Yeah. I just think, you know, I'm involved in the D.L. Moody Center. And so D.L. Moody's got such a fascinating story and it's such an interesting period of our nation's history. You know, you have this mass immigration, industrialization and urbanization happening. You've got the Civil War that he lived through. Like so many of these little interesting, not little, but these interesting events that are going on around him. And this one guy from a relatively small, I mean, 2,200 people, 2,500 people town in Western Massachusetts is doing these amazing things on a world stage. He's just such a fascinating story. And I mean, you look back in George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, you know, Moody's not the only one. There are so many of these characters that are just living through these fascinating times. I've always thought that movies are cool. I love movies. I love watching movies. You know, I think the, you know, the pictures are great, but I also think this audio medium is such a powerful medium and not that it's easier to produce. I wouldn't even assume that. But I do think that in many ways, it's almost more accessible now than video. Yeah. I don't know how you how you think about that, but what are you seeing there on the trends of video movie versus audio? Well, I mean, you know, I still think, you know, audio is such a powerful medium and it, and obviously it's, it's a lot less expensive, you know, to do something. I mean, I did the entire Bible in 79 hours on audio. I, I mean, it was still millions of dollars, but could you imagine doing 79 hours of a film film? It would, there's just the budget. Nobody would even fund that, I wouldn't think. But yeah, and as great as that, as great as that would be, but yeah, I mean, I, I think that there is definitely, I'm loving what I'm seeing in the film world with some of these incredible movies like that. You know that some of these distributors now are, are, they're embracing family-friendly and, and Christian movies and better and better and better. The production values are better and better. You know, I mean, like my friend Jim was just in an incredible, you know, movie, you know, that, that was, you know, kind of friendly, family-friendly. I mean, in a way, but it was a story that needed to be told, obviously, you know, but these, these companies are, are, are producing. We're, we're working on a movie called Eli's Ark that is, that is an incredible story of, of a man who, you know, I don't want to get into it too much, but about a man who decides he wants to build an ark, you know, and it's set today and it's not, it's not, you know, but it's, it's. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. It's a great, it's a great story. And we're talking to major, major actors to star in that. I mean, like, top, top actors. We think we'll get it done. Very cool. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I, you know, and I think through the creative process and I think through, you know, obviously some of those old shows we were referencing, Batman, Superman, they're fictional, right? You know, others of them were more comedic, a little bit more slapstick. Wait a minute, I'm a real Superman? You just ruined all of my life. Probably not. I just ruined it. No Tooth Fairy either. Santa's not real. You know what? You could probably replace Superman. I'd cast you as Superman. Thanks a lot, man. I appreciate that. I'd look good in a cape, I think. But, you know, obviously Unshackled was rooted in true stories. And I think that a lot of what I'm seeing in the podcasting world, aside from just like interview formats like this, is that, hey, let's go back through these true stories. Very kind of documentary style. And it's fascinating to watch how many people are actually listening to those and engaging in real life stories that are just being told in a compelling fashion. And I think that's the real kicker of it. How do you tell them in a compelling fashion? How do you punch them up? Right. So that they're not just, you know, news and sort of boring and dry, but that they really do have some kick to them. Yeah. Well, I think that's why Unshackled is still around today. And, you know, it's been, it's been around forever. I mean, I think it goes back to, I think it's the longest running syndicated radio show of all time. And it's true stories. Most of them are true stories of people, you know, coming to Christ. And I mean, it's incredible series. And if your listeners have never heard Unshackled, they, they should, they should check it out. It's great. And it's done right here in Chicago where I live, you know. Um, and I've sat in on some of those and watched them. And a lot of my actor friends are in those. And it's great. And a lot of those actors were in my audio Bible. Yeah. I forgot you were up in Chicago. Yeah. So yeah, it was one of the first things I remember listening to when I first became a Christian, um, was somebody turned me on to Unshackled. I think my wife and I were driving and we were listening to whatever radio station happened to be. And then on comes Unshackled and you get that, that music, that's real characteristic of it. And then they start telling the story and you're just like, you're instantly sucked in. It's just such a fantastic show. And it's, it's nothing you can argue with. I mean, it's just people's experiences of coming to Jesus Christ and, but they, they do it in such a great way. Right. Right. You know, and there's there, I would say there's something about the audio that, um, I think it's possible when you move it over into video, it might get overly cheesy

I was so great because you could be sitting in a car or wherever in your living room with someone else and they're listening to the exact same thing and their vision of what you're hearing may be completely different than yours. And I think that's why it's not cheesy because you're not seeing it cheesy. You're seeing it, you know, realistic. The way you're seeing it. Yeah. Yeah. And if you watch the video version, depending on the budget, they might have to make it cheesy because they don't have the the funds to make it not cheesy. Well, talk about a little bit about your because I know you do, you do the radio program, right, but you've also you're doing film and film production. And so aside from the cost, how does some of that differ from your creative process and approaching something like an audio drama? Yeah. Well, you know, the great thing with my radio show, pretty low cost to put together because the majority of what I'm doing each week for five hours on it's a Salem radio program and it airs on a lot of the Salem talk stations across the country and then syndicated beyond Salem around about 125 stations. Thanks. And I've been doing it for 16 years and I have a co-host. Her name is Lisa Wolf and she's like my best friend. And we we've been doing this forever. And I really wanted, you know, if the show is not only plays classic radio, you know, The Shadow and Jack Benny and everything, but we interview celebrities from the golden age of television and movies and we do trivia contests with the listeners and they call in and win prizes and things. So it's a, it's really a trip down memory lane. It's a nostalgia show, you know? And then we anchor every hour of the five hours with a half hour classic radio show. But I, it was real important to me to have a co-host who knows absolutely nothing about classic radio because first of all, I want to sound really smart, you know? And that helps. That, yeah, I get it. But the whole idea really was like, because I'm so into these and I've been studying them for so long and licensing them and it's my passion. When I'm explaining the show to her, because she doesn't understand them. It's not like talking down to the audience. You know, like if I'm just saying, well, this and that, you know. But I say to Lisa, Hey, Lisa, this show Gunsmoke, people remember it from television, but it was on radio way before it was ever a television show. And it had a completely different cast. You know, on television, it was James Arness as Marshall Matt Dillon on radio was William Conrad who later played Canon on television, you know, and I go into this type of thing and I try to bridge the sound gap like between then and now. So people today, even if they didn't grow up listening to these shows, because most of the people listening to my show didn't grow up listening to these shows because they were on the air 75 years ago. So it's mostly people like I'm 61, Lisa's 60, you know, it's people really maybe mid 50s to their 80s and they may not have ever heard these radio shows. They may have seen television versions, you know, because many of these made the transition to TV. Red Scalp was on radio. The Lone Ranger was on radio. You know, Jack Benny was on radio. And then they made the transition come late 40s, early 50s when television was invented. So, yeah, I mean, so the great thing about that show is most of the time every hour that we're on is a show that is already produced. I don't have to go into the studio and create Gunsmoke. I have the master recording that I licensed from CBS. And so we play that. And the rest of it is games and celebrity interviews and things like that. So it's not a real expensive production to do. So it's easy to be on the air a long time because it's not costing me a fortune to do it. We have national advertisers that cover those costs and I've been very fortunate. I just love it. We go in every Saturday night into Salem radio's Chicago affiliate WIND AM 560. We go in there Saturday nights at 8 p.m. I have a producer and Lisa and I are in the studio and we just wing it. There's no script. There's no, I had notes, but there's no script and it's fun. And people, I mean, we get, there's never like a day that goes by that someone doesn't reach out via email or text or whatever and say, oh man, I love this or play The Shadow or, you know, play Abbott and Costello. And it's great. I love it. So that's kind of what I do, you know, every week I do that show. That's like a big part of my week. And then I will, I love to just, you know, scour the internet and read and whatever is as far as a project, you know, like my next project that really important to me to have a moral, like, you know, like Rod Serling, even though he did horror and sci-fi and things, every one of his stories had like a moral compass, you know, it was like, there was always something that you got out of it. And he was a big believer, you know, too. And so I like to find projects that I think maybe Rod Serling would want to do today, you know, where it's like a story could maybe be scary, could maybe be sci-fi, but it has a, it has a redeeming, you know, moral purpose. And so I try to find projects. That's what really kind of turns me on is something like that where it's like, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be, you know, believe, become a believer, you know. That's what I always look for. So are you, are you looking at like short stories? Are you looking at news? Are you looking at just the whole range of things that are out there on the internet and trying to find the right story that could be adapted into either audio drama or film or what have you? Yes. But just kind of anything. And yes. Yeah. That's amazing. All of the above. Yeah. Short stories for sure. You know, really cool stuff. I mean, like I, I was really good friends with Ray Bradbury, you know, before he, you know, the last 10 years of his life, you know, there's, he wrote some short stories that have never even been published that I'm looking at. And, and would love to maybe do something by him, you know, and he was, he was an incredible guy, but like, yeah, I'm always looking at stuff that fits in that, in that, in that box for me, you know, I mean, you know, I mean, I will go outside the box. Like I will do, you know, some projects that maybe are not family-friendly, not, not, not like, you know, too crazy, but I really love it when it, when it can. Inspire people to understand that we're here for, because of God. I mean, we're, we're on this earth and we, we, you know, we are here because God put us here. And so I really love to, to, with my audio Bibles, especially, I mean, I get, I get people that contact me or I read some of the reviews on Amazon and things like that, where they might say, I, I was lost, you know, I, my, my, my daughter died in a car accident. I didn't want to live, you know? And I, I heard this audio Bible made me understand, you know, I understood why I'm still here and why I need to continue on. And, you know, you know, I mean, just the, the, just the most incredible reviews in that way. Not only reviews like, Oh, I love the audio, but it changed my life. It made me a better person. It brought me to God. I was, I was lost. Now I'm found, you know, that's really to me. That is like the most, when I read those things, that's when I'm like the most happy because I know that that it, it, it's changed people's lives, you know? Right. Do you find it? So I guess one of the things I do, I do a lot of writing. And one of the things that I find as I'm writing is that I, I tend to do what you do. I go out onto the web and just start reading different things. It's sort of part of the, you know, you got to feed, feed the brain a little bit, you know, get some ideas flowing and then I can kind of pull all that together and decide whether there's something there that I want to write about. But part of the trouble that I run into is figuring out how to have that sort of unique message come in through the writing. You know, what, what angle am I exploring that other people haven't explored 18 different times, you know? Is there, is this really making a unique contribution or am I just sort of, you know, should I just be posting a link and saying, Hey, I read what this guy wrote. Right. And so, so I'm wondering if you have that sort of similar challenge, but I'm thinking maybe in terms of genre, right? So, you know, there's all these literary tropes that I would think would be out there. You know, Romeo and Juliet is the easiest one, you know, and you could argue, you know, you have Romeo and Juliet and then you have something like Twilight that was basically Romeo and Juliet with, with vampires and, you know, like, and so do you, do you have

Like, when I watch TV, I can say, hey, this television show is based on this radio show from 75 years ago. Like, listen to this radio show. It's exactly what you just watched on TV. You know, so it's kind of tough to come up with an original idea, you know? But, you know, but I will, I read so much. I mean, I'm reading every single day, you know, stories and things and people send me and I have an agent, so I get a lot of stuff from people. But the thing is, like, even if you take a story, I mean, like you just said it, like Twilight was Romeo and Juliet. I mean, pretty much the Titanic is also Romeo and Juliet, right? It's just a different way that they spun a great story. And I think it's important to have that familiar, you know, sort of the genesis to the story where you can relate to it, even though it's a different spin. But as long as there's a moral, you know, as long as there's a purpose and as long as, even if it's not, like, I'm not all about, like, you know, in your face with, hey, you need to believe in God. I mean, you know, it's not, that's not, that's not why I will do something. But as long as it follows that and it reminds you that, hey, you know, there's, there's one God and there is, you know, and the reason why we're here is because of God and because he sent his son here to, you know, to die for us, you know, that, that's, that's the most important message or moral. And it could be like a splinter of that in the story. And I feel like that I've succeeded then. Yeah. It's really interesting. I, I got to do a, an essay for a book called It's Not Out Yet, but it's on theology, religion and The Office. So the show The Office. That's great. And so as I, as I was kind of researching it, I did mine on technology and I argued that The Office had this sort of anti-technology motif, right? Because technology would always try to come into the Scranton branch and squeeze people out or, you know, create hindrances to relationships and those kinds of things. And so I kind of showed how that played itself out throughout the series. You know, and you, you kind of have, and it wasn't always consistent because that's not what they were really doing, but you did have this vibe where technology tended to disrupt the relationships within the office. And so it's kind of fun to trace through. But I, I think about those kinds of things and then I look at things like there was an old short story called Eight O'clock in the Morning, I believe it was. And it was sort of the loose inspiration for a movie by John Carpenter, They Live, if you've ever seen that. It's with Rowdy Roddy Piper. I mean, it's, it's sort of a cult classic, I would say. But there, you have all these different, I guess the point is you have all these different interesting lines that you can take into a topic. Look at the way we tend to allow ourselves to be influenced and pushed in one direction or another and then find that sort of redemptive arc to say, no, this isn't really the way we should be pushing. It's, it's actually over here. And so I, I sort of envy you the task, I think, because I think it's such a fascinating thing that you get to do to be able to tease out those stories and to give people that, I guess, vision and direction toward the transcendent, toward God, and, and maybe even explicitly toward Christ in certain cases, although I can't imagine you're always that on the nose about it, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's just a fascinating task. You know, it is. I mean, like, you know, creating these, you know, when I go look back at the maybe this five or six years that I spent producing these audio Bibles, I look back at that time and think, greatest time of my life. I mean, literally the greatest time of my life, traveled all over the world, you know, recording these amazing actors. I mean, I was at, you know, I was in Bulgaria. I was in Nice, France. I was in London at, you know, Abbey Road studios. And, you know, it was, yeah, just, just incredible, incredible. But it was, you know, there was a lot of praying, a lot of praying with the actors and a lot of, you know, making sure that we are doing it right because this is God's word. Um, but I really feel I'm so proud of those audio Bibles. You know, I, I still, I listen to them all the time, you know, I'm so proud of them. Um, I'm more proud of that than any of, anything else I've done really, really and truly. And that's why when you asked me to, to be on your podcast, I was, I was so honored because I don't, I don't get a lot of opportunities to talk about that time, those, these audio Bibles because I'm doing movies now and my radio show. Um, but yeah, I really appreciate it because that it was just such a glorious time to, to, uh, you know, to, to, to work with all these actors who believed, you know, believed in what, because we couldn't, like, you can imagine, you know, we had some of the biggest actors in the world. John Voight played Abraham's for me, you know, played Abraham. And he was on, you know, that series at the time. It was like, and he, or, or, or Gary Sinise. He played David. He was on CSI, you know, uh, CSI show. He would on his lunch break, would run over to the studio to knock out a half an hour of audio for me and then go back, you know, so these were actors that weren't doing it for the money, James. They were not doing it for the money. Believe me, I was paying them the minimum union that the union made me pay them. Okay. And they still, and they, out of their busy schedules made it work, did this for me, you know? And so when you see that, right, you know, okay, I'm doing the right thing when that's happening, you know? Um, and, and I, I mean, I would love to do it again. You know, I mean, if, if, if, you know, I would, I would love to do it again, but you know, God, God, I feel like, I feel like, you know, in the Bible, they talk about how God doesn't choose always the most qualified person to do something. And I, I definitely don't think I am the most qualified person to have done those five Bibles. I mean, for sure. But I do feel like I was doing, I was on one path, you know, I was making movies. That's why I was, I was out there on the set of The Passion of the Christ because I was actually meeting with Mel Gibson's partners and Mel on a movie that I was doing. And I just happened to be there. And then I was friends with Jim because Jim had actually starred in a movie for me called Madison. Um, if you ever get a chance, you know, check it out. It's a pretty good movie. Um, if I do say so myself, Jim, Jim is great in it. Um, Bruce Dern is great in it. It's a really cool movie. And so all of a sudden I'm like, okay, I gotta do this. All right. I'm gonna stop what I'm doing. I'm going to stop doing movie stuff to do this Bible. So I really feel like it was a calling and, and, um, as I say, it's most proud thing that I've ever done in my career. Well, I think it's interesting and I'm really glad. I mean, I'm happy you agreed to come on. I'm happy we've had the chance to talk about it because I think that it's interesting to hear how your, that initial passion of hearing these radio dramas ultimately led into you being able to do this audio Bible. I mean, if you really think about it and I mean, you have a nostalgia radio show for a reason. It's because these things are easily lost. I mean, we don't really listen to the radio that much anymore compared to other things. I mean, to say it's been more popular in the past, I think than it is probably now. Um, and, and a lot of those old shows, yeah. I mean, you mentioned Dragnet earlier and I remember watching old Dragnet episodes on Nick at night when I was a kid, I never knew it was an audio drama. And, and so it, it's just kind of cool to think, Oh, all these things are sort of like they're touch points. They're cultural touch points that are really important. And they also demonstrate the power of this medium that you were able to leverage to do these audio Bibles. And so I just love how the story comes together, man. I mean, I think it's a really great, uh, a great story you have to tell and an amazing project that you got to work on. If it wasn't for these radio dramas, I would not have even thought of the idea of turning the Bible into a radio drama. Yeah. I mean, you're right. You hit the nail on the head. I mean, it was my first, it was my love of these radio dramas and obviously my love for the Bible that, that I was able to marry, you know, at a time in

or you could never know enough about God, really. But I think it's, I think what we could do is communicate to people, which you're doing, you know, and God bless you for what you're doing, because young, you know, I have young, you know, my youngest is 21. And I, you know, I communicate with her all the time about God and how to live your life and have a moral compass and that type of thing. And I just think communicating, you know, and whether that's through a podcast or through just family or through emails or just going to church and meeting people or however, you know, I play on a baseball team with a bunch of guys and and they probably like, okay, enough, enough, Carl, you know, I got it, you know, I get it, okay, you know, they're probably sick of me, but communication, I think, is a key thing. Yeah, yeah. That's a great answer, man. I mean, so I ask all my guests that and this is an interesting twist, you know, like you said earlier, it's hard to come up with something new, but it is really an interesting twist on some things that I've heard from other people, which is the little things actually matter. Like just the basic blocking and tackling of our faith and actually saying the words, communicating it, conveying it consistently is just so crucial for what it means to be and make disciples for Jesus Christ. So I love that answer. Love it. Thank you. Thanks, James. Very cool, man. Well, thanks for being on the show, folks. You can look for links in the show notes to kind of connect you to Carl and some of the other things we've talked about on the podcast here today. And I just encourage you to go check out the audio Bibles that Carl mentioned. Again, we'll link those in the show notes, but really encourage you to go check those out. Listen to God's word, be in God's word, read God's word. It is so crucial for us as Christians to do that. And so thanks everybody for being here. Thanks again, Carl, for being here. And we'll catch everybody on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. What do you do when the world around you is falling apart? It's amazing to me how many people are breathing air. They're going about their business and doing the things you're supposed to do. But if you really ask them, they know that on the inside, they are spiritually and emotionally and relationally dead. If we're not careful, all of us can experience that death when what we need to do, even as the world around us is falling apart, we need to learn how to march when it would be easier to stay where we are and die. Join me each week on the March or Die show as we discuss that and so much more.