Be Fruitful: A Biblical Discussion about the Sanctity of Human Life

Christians need to stop listening to the world and start listening to God so that thinking Christian becomes as natural as breathing. Welcome to The Thinking Christian podcast. This is Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological conversations, Thinking Christian offers a mix of interviews and discussions that highlight the ways God is working in the lives of his people and question the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that keep the church from conforming more closely to the image of Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. Today, we are going to be talking about one of my favorite subjects, actually, which is the book of Genesis. If you've listened to anything we've done on Useful to God, we had actually a series on Genesis that Richard and I talked through. But in this episode, we're going to be looking at something pretty specific, which is the command to be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it, and then how that relates to the New Testament great commission of being and making disciples at the end of Matthew 28. And so, yeah, if we go back to sort of Genesis, we see this original command to be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. And that's kind of where things start for humanity. That's been the modus operandi, you could say, of humanity since the beginning. Yeah, and of course, it's repeated several times in Genesis where there was a reboot a couple of times. That's right. Again, you see it structured throughout much of the Genesis narrative because even when you get to Abraham and Sarah, let's say, what is the problem there? Well, part of the problem is that they can't be fruitful and multiply. Right. And so, having children was sort of a big deal in Old Testament times. It was how you pass things on to the next generation. There were inheritance issues. There were just the idea of being a firstborn. We often think of that as like the initial child, the first one in the sequence. But there's a good argument to be made in Old Testament studies that firstborn actually refers to who's going to be the sort of priest of the family. In other words, who's going to carry on the covenant and the stories, the law, the order of that covenant? Who's going to carry that into the next generation? And so, when we look at folks like Ishmael and Isaac in Abraham's case, but you can also see it with Jacob and Esau, right? You have a flipping because Ishmael is actually older, but Isaac is the child of promise. Jacob is actually younger. Esau sort of disowns his birthright. And so, what we're seeing is that these people are actually going to be chosen to be fruitful and multiply in a particular way, not just biological, I don't think. I don't see it as just biological reproduction, although in the Old Testament, that's definitely the emphasis. But it also has to do with being fruitful and multiplying. The purpose of it was to extend the glory of God all over the world. And so, as you have people multiplying in a fallen world, it obviously implies that that next generation is going to carry through an understanding of covenant and an understanding of what it means to be faithful to God that could be lost from one generation to another. And it is kind of, the Bible is, in both the Old and New Testament, there's a progression of how God communicates this to his people. And we see that through these stories. And that's great. And that's what this whole show is going to be about, right? Yeah. And so, I think there's a couple of areas we could dive into here. So, if we think about it, you've got biological reproduction, which, kind of already talked through, be fruitful and multiply. It almost assumes biological reproduction, particularly in the Old Testament. Though I would say, I wouldn't limit it specifically only to that. And so, you do have instances of barrenness and barrenness being overcome. You see this even into the New Testament in the story of John the Baptist's birth, right? Zechariah and Elizabeth can't have children. And yet, when God sends Gabriel to tell John, or I'm sorry, Zechariah, that they're going to have John the Baptist, Zechariah is like, I don't see how that's going to work. Can you give me a sign that that's actually going to happen? But overcoming barrenness is one of the things that God consistently does across both Testaments to demonstrate that he is in charge of this, that he is going to bring life out of something where no life could come. And so, it is a pretty important aspect, this biological reproduction, to the extent that it demonstrates both human capacity to spread the glory of God across the world, but also that God is going to overcome human limitation in order to have something happen that will allow him to be glorified. Also, the greater community becomes a church. Not that we get to megachurches, but... No, but I think this is where I think a lot of people may not make these connections. But what I would also just say, when we think about that firstborn concept, what's really happening there is that as this person is born, what you're seeing is, are they going to uphold the authority of God? And so, you have all these different kids who are born to people. I mean, Jacob had 12 sons, right? Joseph seems to be the best of them at a particular point in time. But then Judah goes on to have sort of a legacy of his own. Ephraim goes on to have a legacy of his own. It wasn't like they never did anything else. And so, the question becomes, of all these children, who is going to uphold the authority of God? And that authority of God is actually quite significant, because again, post-fall, what we're looking at with authority is, will people walk faithfully with God? Will people obey his commands? Will people point to and magnify him as sort of the animating focus of their lives? That's what we're really looking at in these passages. And so, there's a component of, we can call it multiplication or reproduction, right? That is, I think, particularly in the Old Testament, largely biological. And then there's this component of authority. Will those who were reproduced actually sit underneath God's authority, understand who he is, and accept his authority as the governing focus of their lives? Right. And so, now as we sort of move into the New Testament, what we find is the Great Commission, right? And the Great Commission begins, actually, with Jesus saying, I have been given authority over all things in heaven and on earth. And so, Jesus makes reference to this authority that he has. And what he's going to tell the disciples to do is almost the downstream consequence of that authority. So, because I have authority, here's what's going to happen. I want you now to go from here. I want you to go and make disciples of all nations. And so, we have this linkage again in the New Testament, and particularly the Great Commission, between authority and reproduction. And so, while it doesn't necessarily hearken back specifically to be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth, what I think it shows is that there is at least a thematic continuity between the two. And there are some people who actually connect this to great commission in 2 Chronicles. There's a part in 2 Chronicles where the Persian king at the time announces that he is going to allow the Israelites to go back and rebuild God's temple. And so, he speaks about authority, and he's telling them to go. You know, there's all these different sort of verbal resonances that you have in that passage and the Great Commission. And so, it's kind of an interesting parallel, which would make a much closer connection to, I think, the New Testament Great Commission and the Old Testament story. And I guess there's an argument to be made. I don't know if it's an argument, but it is also something that coincides when you think of 1 Kings and 2 Kings. This is a king who did things that were pleasing in God's sight. This is a king who did things that were not pleasing. So, that was often, that was the end of that reign in one way. And also, that line sometimes. Sometimes, yeah. I mean, and it was, you know, you have these sort of mix of kings that are coming in. They're good or they're bad. But all of that has to do with sitting under the authority of God. And as we really consider what that means then as we go out and make disciples today, what we're really doing is we are extending and expanding the community of people who recognize God's authority around the globe, who recognize Christ's authority around the globe.

And that, I think, is why discipleship involves baptism, right? So in baptism, we are symbolically burying ourselves with Jesus Christ in his death. And so there's a wholehearted commitment. Right. Right. Like I'm ready to... It's like ride or die. I'm gonna, like, this is it. I'm with Jesus. And there is a wholehearted commitment there. And then you also have teaching to obey all that Christ commanded. And so what we're doing in discipleship is we are in teaching people to obey, what we're really saying is we want you to sit underneath the authority of Jesus Christ. Where this all fits into sort of the sanctity of human life story, which is what we're discussing this month, you know, across all these different shows. When we think about life, particularly in the biblical corpus, one of the things that we really need to reckon with is that life in its fullest is defined in unity with Jesus Christ, and that there is a way to live life that is out of unity, obviously, with Jesus Christ, and that discipleship is a way for us to really tie into Jesus in important ways. It's a way for us to access his teachings, to live underneath them, to recognize his authority, and to live a life that imitates all that he did and said. And again, you know, we talked about imitation before. It doesn't mean that we all put on sandals and walk around, you know, Israel. That's not what it means. But it does mean that we model our lives after Jesus. And so when we think about the sanctity of life, you know, obviously this starts in the Old Testament. We start to see the, you know, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. That obviously has an immediate context of life. In other words, that God is going to produce life or he wants humans to produce life and reproduce themselves. There is a biological mandate, right, to reproduce. But there's also a slightly different wrinkle, even in that context, because the word subdue in that context isn't simply about, I don't think, just getting rid of your enemies. I think what subdue is, is, you know, eliminating that which does not glorify God in some way. And so the subduing has to do with the way that life is going to spread and the way of life that is going to spread. Now, that takes different iterations throughout the Old Testament. Obviously, when we look at the word subdue throughout the rest of the Old Testament, outside of this original context of Genesis 1, where we're given the mandate to go be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. When we look at subdue throughout the rest of the Old Testament, it's normally associated with physical domination of one party over another. And that can be in the context of war or several other contexts. And so it does take on a more violent or violence-oriented sort of feel. But in that original context, it's difficult to believe that that's what's necessarily inferred there. What would it have meant for Adam and Eve to go to war with creation? It doesn't make a lot of sense there. But what I think is happening is that Israel is sort of framing this original creation narrative and trying to understand that what they're doing in relation to the nations is the same mandate that was given to Adam and Eve originally. And so life then becomes not simply being biologically alive. And from a Christian and theological perspective, the sanctity of life is not found at its fullest when we sit beneath the authority of Jesus Christ. So proclaiming Jesus is Lord is crucial, I think, to getting to the zenith of what it means to be truly human. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a Gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a Gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. How many times in history do you think that that mandate has been misused? I think an awful lot. I think that, you know, as we, I think as humans sort of try to move and fit with each other, what we ultimately end up doing is we end up sort of merging our own authority with God's authority. And so, you know, we get into this point where we see something happening that's wrong. We want to fix it. Obviously, if we think it's wrong, God thinks it's wrong, and he would want us to fix it. And so our actions become sort of a downstream consequence of what God would want. And so we start to think that everything we're doing is in the name of God. But the reality is that I think oftentimes we are out on a limb in our actions, maybe not in our beliefs. You know, we may believe rightly that this isn't something that God would want. We may believe and recognize that injustice is happening or what have you. But it's when we decide how to go about treating that injustice, deciding that God would want us to do whatever it takes to get rid of that injustice, you know, opting out of our distinct relationship with God as the church in order to do things that he has given to the state. I think some of those things have been very much misused. And this is where I would say a lot of, you know, claims that, you know, religious wars have been the most vicious throughout history sort of miss the point. I think all wars are, to some degree, religious wars. That separation between sacred and secular is an important one. And I've used it before. I think there is a difference between sacred and secular, but I don't think it's a clean distinction. I think that the sacred is often political, rightly political. Again, Jesus is Lord is a political claim. And we're saying that, you know, Romans 13, 1 through 7, folks, when you read through that, that's a political claim. It's basically saying that all rulers sit under our God. That's a political claim. And I think that oftentimes the secular makes religious claims or claims to divinity. They try to inspire our allegiance and they try to, you know, get us to commit who we are, what we are, and what we have to a common cause that is very much national or secular. And so these things are not mutually exclusive. I think they are distinct, but there's a spectrum here that we need to recognize. And as we're trying to live in that sanctity of life moment, that's where we see this deep overlap. And for Christians, we need to distinguish what is really theologically sanctity of life versus what is sanctity of life and its more generic understanding. Well, this seems to be a good place to take a break. And so what are we going to talk about when we come back? We're going to talk a little bit about the way that we can move discipleship toward and frame discipleship as an exercise in the sanctity of human life. Hey, everybody, welcome back. So before we left, you know, I said we were going to talk a little bit about how we can use discipleship and think about discipleship as cultivating sanctity of human life. So, again, you know, we've talked about this in previous episodes where I don't really think that the sanctity of human life can be encapsulated in one single issue. And discipleship to me, because if we, if we look at it in terms of the, you know, helping other people live under the authority of Christ, if that's really what discipleship is about teaching others to observe all that Christ commanded, what we're really doing is we are helping people understand what it means to live a sanctified human life. We're pointing them away from all the other solutions, all the other false stories, all the other strategies and mechanisms for becoming more human. And we're saying, look, all of those may have some truth to them, but Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. And so this is how you live according to his rules and regulations. This is how you imitate him. This is how you become truly human. And that aspect, that, that is what discipleship really and truly is. Yeah. And, you know, we were talking.

about, we were talking about kings, and one thing that I didn't mention was that God never wanted humans to have kinship over people, and that was actually saying, you want a human being to follow, and there's no need for that. Yeah, it's a really interesting history, man, because, I mean, you know, you have sort of the narrative of 1 Samuel, where the Israelites are going to ask for a king. And Samuel's really lamenting this, and he feels rejected because he's the judge, right? And so his kids were kind of messed up, and so they're kind of like, we don't want to get stuck with them, Samuel. If we could do a king, that'd be awesome. So why don't you check that out with God? And Samuel's feeling rejected, and God says, no, they're not rejecting you, they're rejecting me. And I find that so interesting because even if you go back to Deuteronomy 17, Deuteronomy 17, before there was ever a king in mind, I mean, barely before the nation, I mean, the nation hasn't even entered the promised land in Deuteronomy, right? Israel hasn't entered the promised land, they're not settled, they're still sort of a people on the move. But in Deuteronomy 17, God gives instructions for the Israelite king, anticipating that something like this will or could happen. And one of those instructions, which is really compelling, is the king is to write his own copy of the law every year and then sort of have it checked by the priests. And that process, I think it's really compelling, you know, as I think about Deuteronomy 17 and discipleship, right, teaching others to observe all that Christ commanded, that's really what that legislation for the king is intended to do. So if we think about what that would have entailed back then, right, even if you just thought about sitting down now, not using artificial intelligence and typing out the entire Old Testament, like on Microsoft Word, you know, it's gonna take some time, like I don't type that fast. I'm assuming most of our listeners don't type that fast. And so it's just gonna take a really long time. The king's having to sit down amidst the rest of his duties, running the kingdom, you know, staving off enemies, you know, doing whatever other kingly stuff he's supposed to do. He is supposed to make time to write his own book of the law every year. And I think what it's intended to do is to situate Israelite kingship under God's authority, right? Writing that law was to be a reminder of the king, look, you do not in any way, shape, or form have ultimate authority about what is going on in Israel. You rule at my behest. You rule. I've given you delegated authority. But that delegated authority is not really from yourself, it's from me. I'm handing it to you. You are to exercise it appropriately, and so you need to know this stuff. And so it's this interesting, almost royal act of discipleship, right, where the king is sitting under that authority. And again, as we go back into discipleship, that's what we're doing for other people. It's what we're doing for ourselves. When I read the Great Commission, I really do read it as our commission is to be and make disciples, because it's very difficult to make disciples if you're not already a disciple yourself. And so we're constantly going back to the scriptures and learning to live under all that Christ observed, or under all that Christ commanded. And just like those old Israelite kings, right, who would have benefited from writing copies of the law, would have been fantastic if they actually did it. There's not a lot of sense that they did. You know, in fact, we have instances, particularly like Josiah, right? Somebody's rummaging around the temple and they find an old copy of the law. They dust it off. They bring it to Josiah, and he's like, oh my gosh, where has this been all my life? Like, they really just haven't seen it. And to his credit, you know, he makes a lot of these reforms, but it's sort of too late for the nation, and so God makes a provision for him, and he says, listen, I'm not going to let you see what I'm going to do to this nation. You're going to die before all that happens. But yeah, the law seems to have lost, been lost among the Israelite kings. And so now, what are they doing? Well, they're ruling Israel according to their own authority. Yeah, that's erosion by neglect. That's right. Yeah, I mean, I suppose some of my Bibles get a little dusty around here, but, you know, I like to think that I'm still reading it occasionally. Still crack it open. Yeah, I know where they are. They're sitting right in front of me here. I can see them from where I'm sitting. Call on my cell phone. Yeah, so, you know, for that to have happened in Israel was certainly a problem. Right. And it points to this idea that the kings really did turn out to neglect God in many ways. Not all of them, but many of them. When you look at the church and you look at the offices of eldership or any of the other deaconship and everything else, and you see some of the things that, you know, you're qualified to be this if you have your own family in order, you have all of these things. You know, you kind of wonder how that works today in some ways. And, you know, I'm not judging. I'm just saying that, you know, I look at it sometimes and I say, boy, I don't think that I'm qualified to be an elder if I, you know. But is that the same type of thing, too, that, you know, if you have all these things going and you are, you know, you're in the word and you're doing these things and you're living this life in this way, that is part of mentorship and leadership as well. Is that akin to the kingship and those kind of things? Yeah, I tend to think it is. It's a similar dynamic. Yeah. Because, you know, what is intended to happen, whether you're looking at it from a church perspective, a family perspective, any sort of system or structure where you have some level of authority, you know, someone has some level of authority over another. We recognize that or need to recognize that as delegated authority. Right. The concept of servant leadership has been out there for a really long time. It's not one that I'm particularly fond of. I'll just say that. But I do appreciate the idea that the leaders are to serve. My problem with the paradigm is that it tends to become serve the people that you're leading and only serve the people that you're leading. Whereas I would say servant leadership is actually rooted in God's authority over us. We're always serving the Lord and that service of the Lord emanates out to other people. So very similar to what we'd find in, like, the greatest commandment and the second one, which is like it, you know, love the Lord your God and love the neighbor. Right. But I do think the dynamic is similar when we look at those qualifications for elders. Right. It is this idea that if you're going to be in charge and exercising any form of authority over God's people, you need to be relatively in touch with God. Right. And you need to be fairly undistracted from things that might distract you. Right. And cause you to ignore God's people or might cause you to make decisions that are more about you than they are about God. And so I think that there is that sort of sense within those rules. Now, is it exactly the same thing as the Israelite kings? No, I think it's, you know, I think it's a fair stretch. You know, the practices of Israelite kings and the sort of authority they wielded were completely different than that exercised by elders. But in principle, what I would just say is, yes, if you're going to be in charge of people, right, recognizing that you have, your authority comes from God, thus should refocus your energies toward being right with God. Right. And I think a lot of the times as we're dealing, you know, church and state sort of issues or, you know, when we're looking at U.S. government and those kinds of things, part of the role of the church needs to be, and I really mean that, needs to be reminding the state that they do not have sole authority, that they have a delegated authority from God. We do that. We can do that by speaking it and saying it. Right. We can do that by proclaiming it. But we also do that by the way that we live. The things that we refuse to do, the way that we put ourselves out as opposed to accepting some of the prosperity that might come from government. You know,

T there's a myriad of ways that we can do that in practice, by just simply not depending on the state to do X, Y, or Z for us. But it is absolutely something we need to do. And so, this principle that we're looking at, everything from be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it, all the way through to make disciples, there is a thread that comes through that is, listen, we sit under the authority of God. And a big part of what it means to be truly human is to live underneath that authority and to recognize that we're living underneath that authority. This is the role of the church. Within the church, I think it's incumbent on leaders, just Richard, as you brought up, we need to be under the authority of God and that entails certain things. Those rules for elders, those rules for kingship, those are great examples of activities that we perform to sit underneath the authority of God. As believers, we're also to make disciples and help others sit underneath that authority. And when I say that, I know that comes off, that language today is not great, right? It's almost like bad language, sit under someone else's authority. But the reality is that is what we're doing. There's no other way to read, teaching them to obey all that I've commanded, other than saying, we're teaching them to sit under the authority of Christ. Our problem with that sort of language is that usually, there are times, I shouldn't say usually, there are times when people substitute their own authority for Christ's authority. And that needs to be, we need to be cautious about that. But at the end of the day, what we're really trying to get people to do is to live like Christ lived. And then I think the third wheel of this is as we go into the nations, right? Because I think there is an evangelistic component to discipleship. It's very difficult to make disciples if you don't first share Christ with them, sort of an initial step. And so I think that we do need to be proclaiming this to a world that does not recognize Christ's authority. And that's what we proclaim in word and deed. And so it does, it does take on those three components. And I think with those components then comes a really a strong recognition that true life is found only in Jesus Christ. And when we come back, we're going to talk a little bit more about this. Actually, we're going to wrap it up. And it's no way exhaustive because we could probably do about five shows on this very issue. So stick around. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Diet Coke? All right. All right. Hey, everybody. Welcome back. We want to close the show a little bit by just talking about what does it mean to, how do we go about making disciples? What does that really look like? You know, if we are sort of thematically connecting these, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it with making disciples, it begs the question of what does it look like to be involved in discipleship? I think, you know, what I would say is, you know, at least two things. It involves finding folks in and around your environment who are actively teaching you to sit under Christ's authority. That can involve accountability. That can involve Bible teaching. That can involve a number of different things. But the reality is that you have people in your life. You're not living such an isolated life that there's no one involved in your life that can sit back and say, you know, I don't really think that you're walking like Christ would walk right now. You might want to try X, Y, or Z. Or you might want to read this. Or you might want to do this. Like, we need that in our lives. So that's component one. And I think component two is just being that for other people. It's a pretty simple paradigm, right, of helping other people, having the relationship with other people, right, where when we come in and we say, hey, I need to talk to you about something, and it's going to be a difficult conversation, that that doesn't end the relationship, but it strengthens the relationship. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. And, you know, I was just talking about another issue with somebody, and I was talking about calling. And we were talking about different things and finding joy in our work because of it. And, you know, it's a really interesting thing that when you realize how easy that really is to do, you know, sometimes, again, you've heard it said that we're our own worst enemy sometimes, right? Definitely. We're fighting against ourselves when we're fighting when we're fighting God on these things. Right. Right. So it's the same thing with discipleship. It's a really joyful thing. Fellowship is supposed to be cool. It's supposed to be a good thing. And there's a lot of joy in it. Yes, there's going to be a little bit of sadness in it, too. There's going to be because people still get sick. They still die. They still all of those things. But, wow, you get to experience these relationships, and you're pointing that arrow towards home in so many ways. There's a lot of joy in that. What I think the other aspect of that joy is, we all have a common purpose. And to the extent that we can embrace that common purpose, I think it is a much more joyful experience, honestly. We had it just a couple of shows, and they'll be airing at some point. We had a couple of shows on lament. And, you know, I think what I learned just talking with Brian Babcock, who's one of the guests. May Young was the other. And what I listened to talking with them was the necessity of lament for forming strong relationships within the community of faith. Right. I think a lot of times, when we don't lament, our relationships can become very superficial. And, you know, I've come away from those conversations thinking to myself, man, I'm not given to emotional outbursts. I'm a pretty even-keeled kind of guy. Right. And if I do feel something, I tend to swallow it and just say, ah, it's not really worth addressing. But there have been moments in my life where I've really sort of broken down, and I think that lament did draw me closer to people. And as I think back on those moments, the people were there for me, the people who really cared for me. I remember them being there for me and caring for me in a way that's special. And, you know, so at least in my mind, you know, the bond that I have with them is different than the bond that I have with many other folks. And so I think there's this idea of common purpose. And as we have that common purpose, it should open us up to do things like lament, to do things like confession, to do things like holding one another accountable, to do things like rebuking one another and exhorting one another. And that really, to me, doesn't happen on a podcast. I think there's a lot that we can do on a podcast. But at the end of the day, I can count on one hand the number of times I've listened to a radio preacher and said, wow, I'm really convicted about that. I just don't connect with them in the same way as I connect with someone at my church. And so if my pastor tells me something, if a friend from church tells me something, somebody I'm worshiping with week in and week out, serving with week in and week out. If someone like that tells me something, I listen. Right. You know, and I so I would just encourage all of you as we're kind of closing up this conversation on discipleship. Discipleship happens in the local church. There's tons of supplemental stuff. I mean, this podcast, everything we have at UsefulToGod.com hopefully helps you sort of grow spiritually and open yourself up to God's word and to, you know, sort of be ready to build some of those relationships in your church. But discipleship happens in the church. It happens in the real, concrete, lived world. It is not a virtual thing. It's something that you have to have personal connections. That can be emediated, I suppose. But at the same time, I just really feel like, man.

in the same community, dealing with the same pressures, you know, and having the same concrete realities as people, it's just really crucial. So my encouragement, you know, get involved in your church, get involved in discipleship, cultivate relationships where people can call you out for not living under the authority of Christ, encourage you to live under the authority of Christ, and that you can do the same for them. Good word. Well, thanks, James. Appreciate it. And yeah, you know, there was, I just wanna say one thing that, and you talked about lament. There was, there's been a study on, you know, why kids are so anxious right now. And, you know, there's, there's a lot of studies on, on especially teens. And you think about the the guns, violence, and all of the other things that happened. The conclusion is, is that we don't let people grieve anymore. We don't let people lament. And that tends to, you know, it's, you know, suck it up, buttercup, move on. And, you know, and, and that's actually, when you think about that, isn't that part of discipleship is to say, is to, to come alongside those people and, and let them have that time to, to talk about those things. It definitely is. I mean, I think, you know, again, in discipleship, what we're really trying to do is we're trying to help people understand how to go about imitating Christ. And Christ has his moment in the garden, right? Christ has his moment weeping over Jerusalem. Christ has his moment weeping over Lazarus. Right. Like these are all times where you watch Jesus in anguish, in mourning. He was not shy about doing those things. He had feelings and he was able to express them. And he expressed them in appropriate ways. Even his cries from the cross. And they demonstrate the depth of his spirituality. And so I think that there is a very real sense in which we are doing ourselves a disservice if we are telling people, listen, you know, I jokingly, I have twins, twin girls, and so when they were little, I would jokingly talk to them about, listen, feelings are supposed to be buried down deep, right? And they did not take that to heart. They knew daddy was joking. Um, but, uh, but at the end of the day, I, I do think we need to focus in and help kids mourn. I think it's an appropriate practice. And I think, you know, things in the world are going to go wrong. You've got to know how to deal with it. It can't just all be, you know, toughening up and moving forward, toughen up and moving forward. There has to be a sense in which we recognize the loss that we have here. Right. And I think that as a component of discipleship where we're looking at Jesus's life and we're saying, look, do what Jesus did, be who Jesus was. There were times where he was angry, mournful, frustrated, you name it. The whole range of human emotions. He just did it in a way that was always aimed at the glorification of God and the building up of others. All righty. Well, we'll see you next time. Thanks for being here. I want to take just a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you will find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Life Audio. Our world can feel chaotic and uncertain, but we don't have to live enslaved to fear. Christ has promised me and you his peace, and throughout scripture has provided powerful tools and practical steps to help us experience greater freedom. I'm Jennifer Slattery, lead host of the Faith Over Fear podcast, inviting you to join me and my team as together we learn how to starve our fears and feed our faith. Subscribe at lifeaudio.com or wherever you access podcast content.