What If Imitating Christ Became the Church's Central Focus? A Conversation with Eun Strawser

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer through calm, thoughtful theological discussions. Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto today's episode of thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of thinking Christian. I am joined today by Un Strasser. And she has written a book called Centering Discipleship, A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples. She's also the author of a forthcoming book called Sharing Leadership, both of which are published by IVP. And you can find the links to purchase those in the show notes, where they'll be there. Obviously, you all know that I've been interested in discipleship for a long time. It's a kind of a recurring topic on thinking Christian. And so I'm excited to have this conversation. And thanks so much for joining. No problem. Thanks for having me, James. All right. Well, when you when I started reading through centering discipleship, one of the things that I really loved about this is that you're trying to draw people back to this notion that discipleship really should be the center of everything that the church is doing. And it should almost permeate. The church's mission is discipleship and everything should permeate out from that. Talk a little bit about how you came to that conclusion and what your experience in churches was that sort of draw you drew you into this topic. Yeah, I think that discipleship, it should be the topic that comes around over and over again. Right. This is probably something, a key thing that every Christian, every Christian circle, every church should be talking about. And I think that that probably is like the problem. When things are over spoken of or over discussed, it's probably meaning that there is a really a lack of definition, a lack of clarity around what it really, really is. Right. And so I found myself in that position. Discipleship has always been really, really important to me. I love that IVP published my book because InterVarsity is where I really, really figured out, you know, in college, right. A lot of our, our like common stories, right. Where we really owned our own faith, you know, thought about it and discipleship was really, really central. And if you, I would be like the cream of the crop discipler because I discipled like 50 people one on one in a span of 10 years. Right. Everybody loves to hear that story because they're like, oh, it must be like a super Christian because, because she hit that number. And I'm just like, this will not work. This is not the method by which Jesus discipled his people. This isn't the method by which, you know, it grew from 12 intentionally lived through discipled people over three years time that equated to, you know, the change of the entire planet, right. Through discipleship, like one-on-one discipleship, 50 people over 10 years. It's just not the method to go by. And if you go into a professional ministry, so this is my second church plant in Hawaii. Our first church plant, we did that typical, you know, launch a church model, Sunday service, worship service, which I love. And like is beautiful. I love worship services. You know, we start with that, you start with like 20, you know, volunteers, be on the, on the church plant launch team, and then you grow your church. Right. In five years time, we grew that church to 450 people coming in on a weekly Sunday morning service. So it felt like success, but around year three is when I started asking that question around discipleship. I knew that we could draw a crowd of people. I knew that we were like quasi good at the sermons, right. It must be entertaining enough that, that people would come right every week. Right. Even though if I like, even ask my own children every week. So what'd you think of my sermon? They'd be like, I have no idea what you said, mom. You know what I mean? Like that's the typical like pastor's experience, right? Um, even though we had like awesome music that was contemporary, it related to people. It didn't matter when I started asking our, uh, uh, my own church and, and around my own leadership, are we actually discipling people or are we putting on a good show? Right. Like it's the church growth model around. Are we just putting on a good show? That's the case. And like that I'm nailing it. Right. But if I started asking the question around, are there more mature Christlike people in my church today? Are there more people who have, who have had this generative sense of, uh, both patience, kindness, generosity that overflow is, uh, beyond them. Is that what's really happening in my church? Is there a sense of mission and call into the neighborhoods or, or people start thinking about their own workplaces as, as places where like God's already at work. Are people having those kinds of conversations? In reality, people weren't, they were really asking about, you know, What a good sermon it was. Oh, the worship service was, was beautiful and so touching. Or at best the learning cap was some sort of self-help uh ideal, right? That, that was what the church was becoming, right. Or a place of belonging where, uh, I go to small groups so that I can recognize a face on a Sunday morning, uh, worship service and say, hi, and not sit by myself. That was what church, uh, at least in our context was becoming. So I knew that there was a huge discipleship gap. Um, even when we started asking our own leaders around discipleship, like the, the simple question was like, um, uh, have you been discipled? You know, and these are people uh multi-generational, uh, twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties. Um, and have you ever discipled uh anyone else? And the next question was, how do you know? How do you know for sure that you were disciples and how do you know for sure that you discipled somebody else? And there was a mishmash of responses from that group and also from like asking the same questions around a lot of uh vocational uh ministry leaders too. So I just knew that that sense of that lack of definition around what discipleship is, is not just unique to my own local context, but pretty nationally or even worldwide. So when you think about discipleship, uh, one of the, one of the terms that I sort of gravitated as I read through the book was imitation. Um, I've worked a fair amount with Renee Girard's work on mimesis and mimetic violence and those kinds of things and um, and, and have thought a lot about imitation. And so how did you land on imitation in relation to discipleship and how does that work itself out practically? I mean, it's, it's, it can become a fairly ambiguous term, right? Well, let's imitate Christ. Um, where, when we say that, we're not usually thinking, let's put on robes and sandals and walk around Palestine. So what, you know, how did you uh sort of bring that down to the ground? Yeah, I think, yeah, I think an imitation is the entire game in discipleship. If we don't nail this part down, then I think that, and really examine it and come back to re-examine it. I think that this is probably often the root cause of unintentional, sometimes intentional, but for sure unintentional um quote unquote white Christianity or uh Christian colonialism, right? If you think of the church historically and you know, I, you know, many of us in vocational ministry, right. We, we've traveled, met other leaders globally, right? We have some sort of context that, that Christianity is not just unique to America, right? Uh, when we do that, we, you also see a lot of like assimilated patterns, but they're all cultural assimilations, right? They're not like, they're not necessarily Christlike patterns, right? You can see it in church history, artwork, right? All those kinds of things. So I do think that if we don't nail it down and clarify what it means that discipleship is about imitation, then, um, then, uh, discipleship will ultimately imitate something or someone or someone else's culture. And maybe not necessarily of Christ. So yeah, I think, I think uh defining that is the most important thing in discipleship. Um, I think even uh scripturally, uh, a biblical history uh puts it as imitation more than anything else. Lots of people think that, you know, we'll, we'll take the definition of discipleship from where uh the, the um the gospels land on it, right? Jesus, whenever Jesus talks about discipleship or around the word around, follow me, following me, anything like that, it really is about that rabbi, you know, teacher, pupil, apprentice kind of wording, right? Um, a lot of it is going to be about, you know, uh, follow me because culturally people understand what apprenticeship means, right? Uh, you know, in, in the modern world, apprenticeship could be like an internship, right? People think about it academically, right? And so I, I think that's why most people think that in, especially in Western culture, um, that discipleship has so much more of an emphasis on learning. It sounds some sort of a learning program or learning format

And learn this thing. And then once you get that like certificate of completion, great, now I'm, this is what proves that I'm a disciple, right? Right. There's nothing wrong with it, right? But I think that it's limited. But if you think about chronologically, how were the first century Christians thinking about that term discipleship or imitation, right? They were probably using the Apostle Paul's words around any time that he wrote about followers or imitating or discipleship or being a disciple, he actually used the word mimesis, right? About imitation, right? Copying, copycat, right? He's borrowing how, you know, the author of Hebrews talks about Christ is an imprint of God, right? It's imprint and image language that Paul uses. I think that's more true to what discipleship is, you know, imitating, figuring out what it really means to be an image bearer, you know, God's image bearer here on earth, right? Just like Jesus was, right? Just like Jesus was the true human, right? It's really imitating Christ in not just learning about him or learning stuff about him, right? But really, how do you examine and study Christ so that you know how you should live, so that you know how you should think, so that you know what and whom and how you should love, right? And how you should behave, right? If it's really is about mimesis and imitating Christ, I think that that is very different from just apprenticeship that's limited to increasing a knowledge bank that I think a lot of Western Christians think at best what discipleship is. Yeah, and even on a technical skill sort of side, you know, when I think of apprenticeship, I go back to sort of, you know, ironsmiths who would train apprentices and those kind of things. And so you have this knowledge base of things, you know, sort of the doctrinal aspects, the propositional side of that knowing. But then there's also this procedural technical skill that maybe we teach people how to pray. We teach people how to study the Bible. We teach people how, you know, and there's that idea of these are the skills that you need. And I'm with you. I think there's validity to that, but it is limited. Because when we look at that imitation in Scripture, you know, we see maybe even in Philippians, you know, where we're supposed to develop the mind of Christ and we see this beautiful picture of Jesus in Philippians 2. That embodiment of, you know, giving up his Godhead and recognizing that that was not to be held for his own advantage, but giving that and setting it aside is something that you can't, you can propositionally understand, but you have to do more than procedurally know how to do that. You've got to sort of own it in a different way. Is that sort of where imitation comes in? Like sort of that actually testing God by trusting him and acting in the ways, really obeying what he's doing and reflecting back on that? Would that be a fair way to talk about it? Yeah, yeah. I think that the term that Jesus used for disciple follower was a cultural term, right? In Greek it's mathetes, right? But everybody in culture in that first century world would know what that means. If you're an apprentice to some sort of vocation or teacher, it really is that I'm going to follow and mimic and do life and have a deeper relationship with this person because I think this person has the answer to everything that I've been thinking about or concerned about or wondering about or wanting to figure out, right? That's a very different kind of learner, right? An apprentice and a learner pupil, you know, in that first century world is very, very different from a limited set, knowledge base, you know, only kind of learner in the Western world, right? I think that's why Paul, the Apostle Paul, used a different wording and just straight out used imitation, mimetes, as any and every time that he talks about follower of Christ or following me or disciple of anything that's related to that, he really strayed away from mathetes and he used the word mimetes, imitation as what it, defining what a disciple or being a Christian really is. Yeah, and I also like that there is that tension of a real living relationship. If you're going to be imitating someone, it means that like you're not memorizing something of old. You're constantly watching and observing and then practicing it out and then coming back and watching and observing, having conversations, right? If you have that kind of relationship with Christ, prayer looks a lot different, right? Reading scripture looks a lot different, right? How you're going to live out and practice living out being like Christ looks different, right? There is much more of an examination and much more of a relationship when you think about it that way. Yeah, I'm an Old Testament guy, so I always go back to the Old Testament and kind of look at some things. But like Malachi 3 to me has always been sort of one of those passages I always go back to and think to myself, this is how imitation begins to happen. We take the leap. You know, in that passage, God tells the Israelites to test him by bringing their full tithe to the storehouses and to watch what he'll do. And, you know, in avoiding all the prosperity gospel sort of implications of that, you sit back and you say, well, God is really asking the Israelites to do is test him by trusting him. Test him through obedience. And I think that as we do that, we'll ultimately be imitating Christ. Because what Christ did was just live obediently, even when obedience didn't make particular sense in a given situation, right? It's like, Jesus could have done 16 other things, but in this case, he just obeys and trusts that the Father is working and that it's all going to lead where he's supposed to go. And there isn't a lot of anxiety about the choices that he's making because he's just obeying and relying, obeying and relying, that kind of cadence. Yeah, I like that you bring up that concept of testing and, you know, full disclosure, right? It can be like a triggering thing. It's not really about like being perfect or, you know, pleasing, you know, those kinds of things. But yeah, I think that if we really think about that concept of testing, you know, you can go all the way back to Genesis, right? Even in relationship, you know, a quote-unquote perfect relationship with God, right? At the time of Eden, right? And human beings. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? 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There is this deep, deep sense of being an image bearer and reflecting the fullness of God means that there's always going to be this like relationship tension of, do you trust that I'm for your good? Right. Do you trust that like right now when you look at something and you see that it's good and then you take it, that actually probably isn't the best thing. Right. I think that there it's by design and intentional that Jesus also had testings, right? Immediately, you know, it is ordination, right? And, you know, he's confirmed by the Father in the Spirit descends upon him and immediately goes into a testing because it constantly is going to be about a relationship. And I think that that is the deep sense in discipleship. Why would we imitate someone that we don't love? Yeah. Why would we worship someone that we don't desire, right? Like that it has to be around that. And if Jesus is our object of love and desire, going back to Gerard, right? And therefore, right, why we have a sense of imitation and a longing for him, then a lot of that tension of testing should be a reality. You know, that around trusting Christ, right? And him entrusting us, right? That that should be a back and forth. Well, let me pivot the conversation. I wanted to ask you some more practical questions here. One of the things you talk about in your book is the discipleship pathway framework. So you suggest let's begin with the end in mind. And then you ask several questions. You know, what are the essentials of discipleship in your church? How are people being equipped in those essentials? And then what specific markers are we looking for to tell whether they're actually being equipped in those essentials? And so...

So I've done some consulting in the past as well, not with churches, but mostly in higher education, and one of the things that I notice is that when I ask people to give me the essentials, they often don't know what they don't know. In other words, there's such an institutional context that when you ask that question, you're going to get basically the sort of responses that are going to reinforce the culture as opposed to transform the culture. So how do you help church leaders get their heads around, maybe different starting points would actually help us, you know, focusing on different essentials. Maybe those things would help us move toward a discipleship culture, even though they're not really particularly comfortable for us, right? You know, how do you get past the basic answers of Bible study, prayer, you know, whatever that is? Yeah, talk through that a little bit. I'm interested. I just cringed a little bit when you were like, because maybe. I'm like, uh. Yeah, I think the big ruse around my book center and discipleship is that most church leaders are like, Oh, great. Then put her discipleship pathway that she uses in her church and this is what it's going to be and I'm just gonna follow one, two, three and then voila, our church will also have discipleship centered. Spoiler alert, that is not why the book was written. I will say that I really truly, truly believe in Peter's conversation around that, the priesthood of all believers. I really do believe that. But I also think that there is a starting point, and it does start with leaders. Because discipleship is an imitation game, no matter how much we say that it's not happening, the people who attend our churches really do mimic us or they have some sort of pattern of what it means to be a Christian by watching us, right? And it really matters what leaders focus on, what leaders pull their resources towards, right? What leaders make an invitation for and what leaders have ultimately a vision for, right? And so the book really does have a starting point with leaders because, not because they're the only people who can disciple. That's not why. It's only because of their influence over large pockets of people and institutional churches, right? And so I do think that it's worth it for leaders. If anybody wants a starting point, it's not to look at programs or structures or systems. It actually is to look at our basic assumptions or values. If leaders kind of take the time to be like, where are most of our church's resources lying on? It's time resources, it's, you know, who do we think and consider as leaders? What do our leadership pipelines look like and why do they look like that way, right? Where do our finances go towards? Where do our volunteer base go towards? If we're really honest with ourselves, I can walk into any church and tell you if discipleship is moving towards the center or it's left at the periphery by those kinds of topics, right? You kind of look at where the leader pulls their resources towards. If it's still predominantly to that Sunday morning worship service, which is, again, it's not a bad thing or a wrong thing, but if it's majority of the resources thinking about your time, thinking about where leadership lies or is moving towards, then it probably means that the thing that we value the most as leadership is instruction or that sermon piece. What is the most climactic point of any Sunday morning worship service? It probably is the sermon. Everything's centered around it. If you think about how a scripture is written, you know, through Hebrews lens, that's like, you know, everything's at the center of the book, right? That's the most important thing and everything else is oriented around it. It's the same thing, I think, in a Sunday morning worship service. What's the thing that we're saying is the most important thing? It's this instruction piece. And usually that's where we think the teaching on discipleship is supposed to happen, but it's not effective if we don't have disciples, right? So I think that's one piece. I think what leaders are moving people towards or the invitation is made towards, it's most people will think that I know that I'm a successful Christian because I've invited somebody to this Sunday morning worship service. Phew, I'm done. I like check that box off in being a good Christian or a good disciple because I finally invited that person and that person came. And ultimately, I think it's because most leaders have a vision. And again, there's nothing wrong with this, right? But I think that ultimately, leaders have a vision. If you're thinking in five to 10 years time, what would I imagine the life of my church to be like? Most of the time people are going to be describing the growth or flourishing or abundance of their church. If you're going to flip all of that and put it into categories around, how do I know if discipleship is being centered? You kind of look through those same kind of listings. Resources, how people think about their time, finances, schedules, leadership pipelines. It really will be about imitation. If it's about that, then in any and always possible, the question is always going to be, are my people being discipled? The people who at every stage, at every age, whatever it's going to be, are they being discipled? Are they becoming more like Christ? Which means that you're going to start developing, what does it mean to look like Christ in this neighborhood, in this city, in this state, today, in this century, right? You're going to start asking those unique localized questions, right? The invitation piece is going to be, you're probably going to be inviting people more towards a bigger invitation, not to Sunday morning worship services. It's going to be to the neighborhoods, right? You're going to be like, where, where do we actually live out and practice living like Christians, living Christ-like? It's not really within the church. It's really with the community that the church resides in, right? And then lastly, it means that the leader probably has a vision for the flourishing of the entire community, not just their own church. If discipleship is being centered, then one of the marks of that is going to be that the neighborhood would benefit from it and your church's existence would actually matter to the neighborhood it resides in, right? So when you think through some of the practices, what comes to mind when I think about that vision of discipleship where it moves from the church out into the community, right? There's a, there's an impact, an influence, and an intentional look toward the community. What really comes to my mind is the necessity of lament. And so there, there's a sense in which you could look at the data, I suppose, and do the nerd thing and, you know, kind of push up your glasses and, oh, the data suggests, you know, we have all this going on. But then there's a whole other sense when, you know, we look back at Christ and we see him being very compassionate and, and, you know, almost weeping over Jerusalem. There, there's this sense in which, in other words, there's a vision of that outside community that sees it as broken and recognizes that, you know, no matter how much we do, perhaps it won't be fixed, but that we still have a responsibility to wade into the mess. You know, as a discipleship essential, is that the kind of thing you would try to lead churches toward to, to look at life that way, you know, as opposed to just sort of, we want people to master X, Y, and Z doctrines. Is that a, I know that's a little bit of an unfair comparison, but. No, no, no. I think it's a very, very, very fair comparison. Yeah, I think that if our tools of becoming better scripture readers, our tools of being better at praying, being having the tools of being, knowing how to worship better, right? If all of these tools don't lead into a compulsion of love towards our neighbor, then that's not discipleship. At least it's not imitating Christ. Yeah, and because those two are really very much tied together. And I mean, you could argue that even within the great commission, which you address, you have these two movements within discipleship at the very least, baptism and learning to obey all Christ commanded. And so it's an easy lead to go, well, what did Christ command? Well, there were basically two basic things. Love God with everything we are and have and love your neighbor as yourself. And so those two seem to fit really well within discipleship and imitating Christ in that way would certainly lead to it. I guess my concern would be, and my question to you is, do you see a lot of churches that really have that, that have the practices embedded within them to lead them to those conclusions? Yeah, let me phrase my wording well in this one. Two thoughts come to mind. One is, yes, I think that when I'm working with churches and leaders and they're just like, oh, we don't have a lot of discipleship essentials, or I don't know the clarity point, I'm just like, every church probably has it. And ultimately, every church should have the same one. It should be how Jesus defines the Shema, right? Love God.

and love neighbor, right? That really is it, right? But I think that if you kind of look at how Jesus talks about loving God and loving neighbor in how he, like, what are the two topics that he talks about more than anything else in all of his parables, right? He actually talks about seeking two things. I think seeking those two things has to do with loving God and loving neighbor, right? He says, seek the ones who are far from God, and any includes those who are far from community, right? He constantly jams those two things together. It's not this privatized religion and privatized individual relationship with God, not just that, right? But the way that Jesus sees what it means to be a follower of God, right, or a God lover, Yahweh lover, is that being closer to God means being closer and invited back into the community, right? Every healing is going to be, go show yourself to the priest, right? so that you can come back into the community, right? because that's part of loving God, right? So it's like, seek those who are lost, lost meaning those who are far from God and far from community. And then he says, seek the kingdom. Those are the two things. I'm like, if churches examine what it means to not just do the rote thing of like, oh my gosh, we love God and love people, and then that's on every church's banner. Again, I love it. That's the right place to start. But if you don't examine, I think, scripturally, and what is God's and Jesus's intent around the Shema, it really means you're seeking those who are far. Loving God means you're going to go and seek the ones who are far from him and far from his community. That's what it means in praxis, right? If it means love your neighbor, it actually means that you're going to seek his kingdom for the flourishing of your neighbors and not just yourself, right? The kingdom of God should be a flourishing abundance. Everybody has a sense of belonging. Everybody has a sense of purpose for everybody, right? It's redeeming culture. It's redeeming creation. It's redeeming relationships, right? All of that's included when Jesus is talking about, like, I'm here. I inaugurated my kingdom, right? And it's growing. It's expanding constantly, right? That's what he's talking about, right? Every parable about it growing, starting small, growing exponentially, right? If Christians don't think about loving neighbor in that way, then I think that everything becomes so privatized and limited. Christianity becomes super small, right? And then therefore discipleship becomes whittled down to some good learning that I had or some good class that I took at church, and now I must understand what it means to live like Christ. Well, one of the things this connects to something I wanted to talk about a little bit, but you emphasize at various points in your book colonialism, this sort of colonial movement within discipleship. And it seems to me like what you just explained, this idea of, you talk about it in terms of hospitality occasionally in the book and how going out and seeking those who are far off and trying to draw them in, it would seem to me that that's a solution to, or at least a dynamic against, you know, colonial understandings of discipleship, because you're welcoming others. You're not trying to force others to fit into your mold. As they imitate Christ, they're going to take on a different shape and a different form, but they're going to be moving toward Christ-likeness as opposed to me-likeness. And so what you just talked about, can you kind of help us understand what you mean by the colonial aspects of discipleship and maybe how it connects to those two concepts? Yeah, I think that, and this is, yeah, I think that this is a hot topic. It should be a hot topic in our time, right? So I'm thankful that you, you're the first person, James Spencer, who is asking me to have this conversation on an interview site, really. Yeah, you're my favorite interviewer by far, for sure. Yeah, oh, it like gets me a little bit tearful. I think that, you know, the biggest emphasis that a lot of church leadership, nationally and globally actually, that we all talk about in these kinds of settings is, like, what is, what will the future church look like, right? And a lot of, you know, black and white race dynamics, you know, everybody understands that there's a disparity, right? In America, it's racism, right? But if we constantly think that a future church will either be white assimilated or black assimilated churches, I think we're missing out on what God's probably doing, right? Statistically speaking, globally, the fastest growing church is the global South. So South America, Central America is where churches are growing the most. It changed recently in the last decade from continental Africa, right? So this is something that I pay attention to. Why is that happening, right? The fastest growing churches in the U.S. are immigrant churches. You kind of, you have to think about why, you know, so these are cultures where it's going to be one language that's not English, right? You're kind of thinking about all these things. So what would happen when, when a discipleship in a colonial way of imitating a culture versus discipleship where it really is presented intentionally meaningfully that it's an invitation of Christ, it has to make us examine who do we think Jesus is? You know, how do we think Jesus engages interculturally? You know, all those kinds of things, right? I think that it's worth it for the leaders. It's not something that we have to share with every single person and everybody needs to be like an intercultural, you know, expert. It's not that, but I do think that there is a cultural aspect of how do we become like an other for that person or that group's sake instead of forcing them to mold into so that we feel comfortable. There should be something about a discomfort for the sake of another person that a Christian or a follower of Christ experiences, right? Imitating the incarnational one means that we have to experience dissent. We have to experience assuming somebody else's clothes, moving into somebody else's neighborhood, right? Understanding a culture, right? To be more like them, not to just go to them, but like there has to be a growth in a discipleship pathway where Christians or a church community understands what it means to be part and with, identify with an entire neighborhood community. Like a practical example. I was working with Emmanuel Padilla. He's the executive director for World Outspoken. I used to work with Emmanuel. Oh my gosh, he's like one of my favorite, favorite humans, right? Like so, so bright. Right. And in a lot of his like intercultural church work, right? He gave this great example about how there was this predominantly white church, a Southern background, you know, and there's a, a particular way of worshiping. And they really wanted to know their neighbors. And there, there was a another church of Latin background. And when they tried to do a, a joint worship service, this is where everyone felt offended, right? The, the predominantly white church comes in and they're muted clothes. Very, very humble. It feels very a full of reverence, right? That's what the worship service experience is like. And then here's this like Latino church that comes in, wild clothes, so much color. Everyone's just yelling, yelling, screaming. And every, both parties were very offended by it. And when you do that and stop and you do that intercultural work of not judging, but trying to understand, man, there was such a beauty about understanding each culture's reflection of what it means to utterly revere and respect the Holy One. Yeah. For that predominantly white culture, they knew that worship meant like, I want to humble myself before the King. I want to not be the first one to speak when I'm in the presence of the one who gave his life for me, right? This is, this is the context it's coming from. In the Latino church, they're just like, when we have a venerated, you know, superstar in our mix, we want to go all out for them. It's a huge celebration. It should feel like the biggest party. That's how we honor a someone in our culture, right? Both parties are doing the same thing. Both are actually worshiping the King, right? But they were doing it from a cultural aspect. Now, if you, if you set it into a viewpoint of like what is right or wrong, colonialism will say that one is right and one is wrong. Right. One has to lose a voice, take the second seat, obliterate a language, don't know their culture and be assimilated into another one. But mostly it's because out of comfort, right? I think imitating Jesus and moving into a neighborhood, that would have actually insisted on both of those culture-based worship, worshipers to want to know and experience each other's way of revering God. Yeah, would you say that one of the basic problems, at least this is, I've taught a course on ideology. And usually the way I talk about ideology is.

It closes things off too quickly and claims to be more complete than it actually is. And so what you end up with is a closed system that ignores a lot of what else is going on and says, no, this is the only system that exists. This is the right system, usually is the way it's phrased. And it sounds to me like that's what you're describing with some of these dynamics of intercultural worship, is that one side is going to ultimately say, no, no, no, reverence actually does look like this. What you're doing is a distortion and an inappropriate way of reverencing God. Whereas instead of just looking at it and going, no, these are both appropriate expressions. I just happen to be more comfortable with one. And so now how do we learn to bear with one another in sort of the back half of Romans, let's say, you know, the last few chapters of Romans, how do we get our heads around those to bear with one another in these more tense situations that are going to create discomfort, not necessarily argument or disagreement, but certainly a discomfort, you know, sitting there. I can remember going to, I went to Cuba in 1999, and it was right when churches were able to worship publicly. And so we went to a worship service and we're standing shoulder to shoulder, you know, chest to back with groups of people. And I mean, they're going crazy for the Lord. They're just worshiping like crazy and I'm getting hot and sweaty. And, you know, this is not my scene at all, right? Like I don't even like the outdoors that much. And we're standing in this, you know, bricked up church, no roof, like nothing's finished. But as uncomfortable as I was, it was sort of infectious. Now, it wasn't something that I would probably choose to do. It's just not... I don't know that I... Yeah, it's just not me, right? It's sort of like throwing me into a yoga class. It's probably not going to happen. But there was an appreciation there and I can understand why they were doing it and really appreciated their excitement. But we have trouble because we have the option of segmenting, or at least we have had the option of segmenting. We've generally been able to sort of distance ourselves from one another sufficient that we don't have that discomfort. Does that ring true? Yes, absolutely. No matter how much people say that it was for noble reasons why we have like a million denominations in the Protestants, you know, we know why. You know what is the hardest thing when a new pastor comes in in a re-missioning context in an established church? What's the worship style? What's the musical worship style we're going to be using? You know what I mean? Are you going to change that? Right? Yeah. No, I mean, when I was in East Africa and I attended a Lutheran church, it was not like any Lutheran church in the United States of America, I will tell you that. People are wearing the same kind of robes, but they come in and they're like, it's a whole party line, you know, parading, and then the whole worship service ends up, everybody gets into this Congo line outside, drums out. I like was weeping because I'm just like, I was worried that I was going to go into a colonized setting. And I was so pleasantly surprised that that didn't happen, right? That it really, really wasn't, right? And so I really, really value the Lutheran churches, like going into Tanzania. You know what I mean? And like really, really, it's not even giving permission. I just feel like they did that incarnation of work in that area of the world well, right? I am sure that there were so many conversations and giving up of things that people felt uncomfortable around, right? And then that's the result of it, right? In my local context in Hawaii, this is like a really, really big thing because, you know, our state's history was an overthrowing of the Hawaiian monarchy. And when you talk to indigenous Hawaiians about who is at fault, it usually is going to be white business people from America or it's going to be white missionaries, you know? So a lot of the Christians here in my local context, they really wrestle. Like, are they Hawaiian Christians? Are they Christian Hawaiians? There is an identity piece that feels disparate to them. And for me, if you trace it back, it's because of how colonized Christianity was when it was presented here, right? One, and it's a place where like their Hawaiian language, dance, culture, foods, everything was obliterated. It was illegal and punishable to speak in Hawaiian, to write in Hawaiian, to dance hula, anything like that, right? Because it was deemed by Christian missionaries as non-Christian or not Christlike. Fast forward now, one of the churches I work with here is, it's a queen's church. It's one of the oldest churches in Hawaii called Kavaia Howa Church. And the last reigning monarch in Hawaii was a Christian. Queen Lili'uokalani was a Christian. She loved her people. She loved God. She wrote all of these hymns in Hawaiian because she loved Jesus and wanted to connect, you know, her people to God also, right? But this church stands as such an act of resistance because every week in their worship service, you know, they're singing traditional hymns, but it's all in Hawaiian. They will cut people, any sort of special music or whatever, it's all in hula. And it's beautiful. You know, I attend and I do not understand not one word people are singing, right? Because Scripture is going to be read in Olelo Hawaii, right? All of that and people are dancing barefoot. If you're going to be the preacher... Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. For that week, then you have to be barefoot to come behind that pulpit. You know, all of that. But like, I love it because it's such an act of social justice as Christians and as indigenous Hawaiians. And they're saying that, like, we can take up space and the kingdom of God has room for us that we will worship our God through the beauty of the culture that he gave us. I weep when I go to their services. It's so it's such a testament to like resistance and a way that they love God, that they're trying to put these two tense pieces together, you know, out of such a story of lament, like going back to lament. Yes, I think absolutely if lament and celebration are not key parts of how Christians or Christ followers behave in the world, who else would be holding that for people, for humanity? Right. In our local context, all of our, we don't have, we don't have often many, many public worship gatherings, but we have it about about once a quarter to once a month. But when we do, we make it so that lament, a prayer of lament is a central part. It's not the sermon. I still have never given a sermon since I, since I started the second church plant on purpose in order to center discipleship, right? But we make that that prayer of lament and it's always given by um and a local woman leader in our in our church, right? And guess what everybody always remembers after that public uh gathering. Everybody remembers that there that this is a church that holds space for the entire community to hold lament because there's so many things to grieve about uh these days, right? Yeah. I I want to come back to one issue, but I just want to say I really love the idea of not giving a sermon and not because I'm anti-sermon or something like that. But there are so many times when I walk into an organization and you can just tell that they're going to use one single practice as a crutch. And it doesn't matter whether that practice is good or it's bad or it's ugly. Like, it doesn't matter. It's just gonna be the crutch. And I always wanna just kick it out from under the every time I've learned to do it sort of artfully and kindly, right? James, you should consult together. Oh yes. I think I would have fun with you. But it's just, I mean, I think about if you if you write a Lauren Winner's book on uh the dangers of Christian practice, these things can become so embedded and ingrained in the way that we think about our faith, that sometimes we just need to stop doing them in order that we can rethink our faith and come back, reform those practices, and draw them back into the community in a way that is um in less danger of deforming us and deforming those practices themselves. And so I just wanted to say that I love that idea. It's a, it's super cool.

I think, you know, oftentimes we're trying to figure out, well, how do we fit in X? And it's like, well, there's usually only one way to fit in something new. You get rid of something else. And so it's a question of value. We always have the room. It's just something else is going to have to eke out, you know, one Sunday or two Sundays or what have you. So I love that thought. Yeah, I will give a fair caution for leaders, especially more of the, you know, apostolically wired folks in the world, right, where it's just like, yeah, that's like a free like clean slate that we'll just go and like out with the old and in with the new, right? I'm just like, you know, our first call, if we're, we're like blessed to be in a leadership role and we are caring for, for God's people, right, in that manner, you know, I like working with a lot of leaders. You know, the frustration point ultimately will get to a point about their people, right? It's just like, God, yeah, that's like a free, like clean slate that we'll just go and like out with the old and in with the new, right? I'm just like, you know, our first call, if we're, we're like blessed to be in a leadership role and we are caring for, for God's people, right, in that manner, you know, I like working with a lot of leaders, you know, the frustration point ultimately will get to a point about their people, right? It's just like, God, you know, I want all these new things to happen, but it's really, it's like, you know, my people aren't ready and all this stuff. And I'm just like, I think that we should probably take to heart, you know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I always call him Dietrich Bonfire because like, you know, you just feel that scorching from him, right? But, you know, when he says that, like, you know, leaders should not ever complain about their people, ever. And, and for sure, don't ever complain to God about his people. You know what I mean? There's like such a tenderness he has for, for the church, right? And I'm just like, I'm always like your, our starting point as leaders is whoever God gave us now. We're never to wish for different kinds of people. It's never to wish for a different kind of neighborhood that we, that our church resides in, right? That is our starting point. And then that helps to inform how to go about implementing change, right? That's right. But also at a rate that, that our people can handle and tolerate, right? There should be included in the vision for flourishing for the neighborhoods is that I want to do this work, this good work with the people that God has given me now. I want them in five to 10 years to be the people who are discipled and they're imitating Christ strategically, thoughtfully, intentionally, lovingly, compassionately and uniquely for this neighborhood, right? So I think that the starting point really is like, really examining where are people are at now and then building from there, right? Where are there those like, um maybe perhaps missing, uh discipleship, uh imitation of Christ elements, and where are they like excelling at, you know, and, and start there and then and then, and then build from there. It's really good to hear you say that. When I've thought through this, I have a background as a personal trainer. And so I used to work one-on-one with different fitness clients and they all had different goals and different bodies and just, you know, all that kind of stuff is all different. And so you're not doing a cookie cutter program. You're not writing it up for everyone and then just implementing it. Everybody gets their own separate distinctive programs. And then you progress them, right? You, you, you push them a little bit. It's like if you can add five pounds to the bar, let's add five pounds to the bar and see how that does, you know, but you're not going to bring them in and go, oh, okay, here, here, let me throw 350 on the bench and, you know, throw you underneath it. Go ahead. Um, you just don't do that to people. It is a slower progression and you do try to tailor it as much as possible to them while also challenging them to move forward. And I, I think that resonates with me a lot, the way you're describing it to say that it does need to be a tailored, not a tailored system, but a tailored vision for the people that you're shepherding to guide them from point A to point B and then on from there, uh, and, and really cultivating in them an imitation of Christ. Yeah. And it, yeah. And I think that the, the, the only, um, addition would be that, uh, it's the tailor fit for the entire community, right? That a discipleship pathway, like everyone, everyone can, a pathway makes it so that everyone can be at different stages for sure. Uh, but, but there is a clarity in where we're going, right? There's a, there's a clarity about that, that we're all kind of doing the same thing, right? We're all trying to work out the same thing so that it's not so dependent on that one leader, right? Like most of the times and like, yeah. Another way that I described discipleship is that, um, if, if we, if the leader finally gets a point that the church exists for the sake of the community or neighborhood it resides in, right? If that is a clear mentality, right? Then what's that bridge that connects the church to the community and the community to the church. Most of the time people think that there has to be other kinds of leaders, people who are better at neighborhood conversations or, you know what I mean? Like, um, who joined the council or something like that, like city council and they put leadership at that, as that bridge for me, I'm just like, it's actually discipleship that bridges the, the and connects the church to the community and vice versa. You're trying to train up and equip uh God's people so that they know how to be the bridge between between God's community and a community that they want to live on behalf of, right? Like, like one day it will, it will become merged together, right? You're kind of thinking about what is the kingdom of God? It's heaven and earth converging together, right? In a, in a really similar sense, like the church community and the community it resides in should be converging together. That's it. And everybody's going to flourish, right? Are we equipping people in our churches to get to that point? Do they have um both a deep, deep spiritual confidence. They know God, love God, uh, um, have a deep, deep relationship with God, have a full confidence in him in their identity in him. But also is that deep spiritual confidence tethered to social competence? Do they know how to live and act like God in the world, right? A lot of Christians, you can ask, test that that Christian out by like, hey, how many non-Christian friends do you have? Yeah. What do you mean, right? Like, like that becomes a stop point for people. Yeah. Well, I want to circle back around because I had one question for you with regard to the colonial aspects that we were talking about previously. So just as when I look at the Scripture and I, I read the various stories, let's say like the Exodus in the Old Testament, right? Um, what you see is the transformation and freedom of a people who come out of slavery where they are unable to worship God to a setting in which they are given a set of guidelines and uh a uh structure and a life in God's presence that allows them now to worship God, gives them a for lack of a better term, a map, right? Um, a system or something like that to help them worship God. But outside the context of the Exodus, and this is often cited in, I would say in uh liberation theology does it an awful lot, but then I would also argue that this is deeply embedded in, let's say just the American story where we see the use of the Exodus early on in American history, um, in its breakage or cleavage from the church of England and uh great Britain. The Exodus is something that the uh American colonists grabbed hold of and said, well, we're the oppressed, they're the oppressors. We need to break free so that we can do our own thing. And what's missing in that equation is always this sort of transformative aspect on the other side where the Israelites were not freed to do whatever they felt like doing. They were freed now to obey God. They were freed to worship God. They were freed to live into this. As we think about colonialism and we think about, you know, some of the dynamics there where we're, we've had this setting where white Christianity has been sort of the top dog, let's say for a very long time. And I think we're going to start seeing multicultural groups, uh, multicultural congregations sort of emerge and become more of those top dogs. Do you have any advice for those groups to say, don't make the same mistakes that the white church did? How, how do we avoid that weird dynamic where it's just a reversal, but there's no transformation? Does that make sense? Dave Spencer, this is my favorite conversation by far. Thank you so much for asking awesome questions. Yeah, I think he's probably one of the top thinkers about uh this kind of dynamism in the church. He's followed it, uh, and studied it historically, uh, in a, up to a current context, right? And so he

Why, historically, even for American churches, right, it predominantly was for religious freedom. Sure. A breaking away from it, right? Like, I can understand that, right? A lot of the immigrant church stories are so that, you know, and like, I do a lot of work with black and brown church leaders, and there is a sentiment where, like, church has become a place where, like, we actually have power. Yeah. We can actually hold power. We can actually exercise power, right? There's a deep, deep, like, respect for that. I can understand why people do not want to change any of that, right? It comes out of that kind of a story, right? But I think that it begs that discipleship will demand to ask that question. What are you running, what are you moving away from, and what are you moving towards? If it isn't towards a community, a robust community of faith who is willing to work out what it means to bear with one another, because loving one another is the only thing that Jesus left us with that will tell an outside world who he is, right? That's the only thing that he wants to identify himself with, is how does a community of people love one another? How does a community of people work out living on for the sake of their neighbors out of that loving and bearing with one another, right? If that's what the church ought to be, then it can't just become this isolated Noah's Ark group. It'll grow. Yeah. It will grow and multiply, I'm sure, right? But that's not what we were set apart for, right? That's the question, right? What are we set apart for? So it has to be that discipleship emphasis and just continually looking at it and asking yourself, are we really conforming ourselves more closely to the image of Christ, imitating him? Or are we seeking to conform people to our own culture, to our own norms, to our own values, regardless of whether those align with Christ? Yes, yeah. And that is like, yeah, I just think that, you know, in the book, I talk about, you know, because it's not a program, right? It's not an emphasis on a discipleship program. It can be turned into that, but a pathway, right? What are some frameworks that pathways require? Discipleship or imitation of Christ should mean that every person who is being discipled in my local church intentionally, meaningfully, they will mature in Christlike character, the Christlike theology. How does Jesus think about God? It should be the primary thing that we should be following after, right? How does Jesus engage with wisdom, right? What's this Christlike wisdom in my world today in my local context look like and a Christlike sentness or missional living? Those are, I think, the four main things that everyone should have some sort of a skeleton around. There are unique versions of it because every local context is going to have a different flavor, right? But I think that those are the four key marks of maturity that every church leader should think about and imagine, what does Christlike character theology wisdom sentness look like in my local context now? And then you go to, therefore, what should these core essentials be in my church? Love God, love people fits into that 1,000%. It really, really does, right? But what's this loving God look like and how does it shape my character, right? We should have... for me, I'm just like, when the pandemic hit, I'm like, one of my mentors was like, oh, You're kind of loving this, right? I'm like, why are you outing me, right? But I knew that she knew what I was thinking because she's just like, finally, everybody will be living up to that urgency that you always feel about, will Christians step up to the plate now? Right? Like, I'm just like, this is a moment just like the plagues in Rome, right? When it was Christians who were the only ones who stayed on behalf of those who were sick, those who were marginalized, those who were orphaned, widowed. And that's what made Christianity come to the map globally, right? Empires and kingdoms finally looked at a tiny little cult and were like, there's something about this, right? About this group of people. And then it multiplied, right? I thought that that was going to be the moment. I thought that our modern time plague was what was going to make the church finally step up, right? Our church, because obviously we centered discipleship, our church actually grew throughout the pandemic. We started with, you know, one tiny missional, missional community, you know, for folks who, you know, follow missional community patterns and things. But we were at three at that time around the pandemic, and then, you know, six years later, we've multiplied to nine. We're going to end with 12 by year's end. Because we, because discipleship was centered, not a worship service. We never had an immediate, how do we stream our service? How do we, you know, our people were, their first questions really, to me, I was like, oh my gosh, how do we gather people? That's what I was thinking, right? Because like, how do you grow a church? You grow gatherings, right? But my people, because they were discipled in character theology, wisdom, sentness, they were immediately asking, who are our neighbors? How do we, how do we like stand with them, right? This is how a lot of our, our communities around like senior and elderly care. Three of our missional communities is all around low-income senior living facilities, you know, and we serve 500 people. And now, you know, years later, it's the seniors who are discipling one another. They have discipleship groups of their own and they're talking about, how do we serve our neighbors? How do we love our neighbors? How do we tell them about God's story, right? All those kinds of things, right? And I'm just like, oh yep, no matter how much I will think that, ugh, should I be giving a sermon? You know, there's like that tension. Of course there is, right? Of course, yeah. You know, I'm like, oh, I kind of miss that. You know, I used to do it like every single week. But like, man, when I hear those kinds of stories about my people and none of these people know who I am. I mean, the senior pastor, you know, of a church that caters to 650 people today, and I will assure you, it's only the leaders who know me. It's 25 people who know me, and that's it. That's really cool. There's something in what you said that I just want to make sure we don't lose. And then I have one more question for you and then we'll close it out. But one thing you said, you know, because your people were discipled, because you were centered on discipleship, a lot of these decisions that other churches were making, you didn't need to make. It was a much easier transition for just dynamic movement into the pandemic and all that that entailed for you all. I think so many times the problems that we're trying to solve are unsolvable because we've closed ourselves off to the opportunities that discipleship might bring. We just don't have the right posture in the world, and so we can't see the openings that God is giving us. We're just trying to be over here and solve these little puzzles ourselves. Without that disciple posture, without eyes to see and ears to hear, we just don't have the sense-making apparatus in place to sit back and say, this really isn't the problem. We could just do this. But it sounds like, and I'm sure your church is imperfect in a number of different ways, but it sounds like there's a fantastic way that you've figured out how to center that discipleship and give your people a different way of looking at the world so that some of these problems that other churches were facing, you simply didn't face. I think that's fantastic. Yeah, I mean, I will say one, for sure, we have lots and lots of flaws. Thank you for mentioning that. Number two, like, man, I think my own pride and ego, of course, was hit, right? Like, I was freaking out like every other senior pastor during the pandemic. Why? Because in the U.S. it hit in March and just around the corner was Easter. It's the biggest event of the year for churches, right? And I was also thinking that. I literally thought, this is what's going to put a tiny little church plant that doesn't make sense in the world to finally be on the map and now people are like, well, that is a real church, right? That was the temptation that I was facing and wrestling with as a leader, right? Like, I can, you know, till I'm blue in the face, be like, oh, no, it was so easy. No, of course not. It wasn't. It was my own people asking me questions that I did not think that they were going to ask, you know? We were, that year, we were going to be poised to do this, like, Easter gathering. we're gonna talk about Jesus, you know, we anticipate 100 people in this awesome, trendy, you know, craft beer joint. Like, we knew the owners. It was gonna be super awesome. We were like, I'm like, finally, this is gonna be so great, right? We're gonna do that. And then, you know, pandemic, shutdown, everything. And I knew that I was, like, mourning it. Like, I was really grieving that loss of an opportunity. And then when my people started asking different questions, like, literally, we

I was repenting because I felt like Jesus is like, if you trusted me enough, talking back about a trust with God, right? So if you trusted me enough, see how you experience like the parable of the sower. Put it into good soil, you know, and you have to wait a long time. But man, if you really want to experience the kingdom of God, it is like 30, 60, 100 fold. Like I felt repentance because I thought I was losing something in my ministry, right? And yet God was inviting me to something else because I did a slow growth move of just focusing on a small number of people and just intentionally discipling them through a discipleship pathway. Very cool. Well, I have a question I ask all my guests at the end of the episodes. And so I want to ask you as well, what do you think Christians need to be thinking about in order to be and make disciples more faithfully in our contemporary world? I think that if people are going to be thinking mostly about asking this question, God, where are you already at work in my neighborhood? And how would you like me to participate? That is one of the things that question-based that we equip all of our people in. And man, everybody, every Christian, every Christ follower asking that question, the gospel truly, truly will be the answer for every brokenness in the world if every Christian was asking that question. That is an excellent answer. Thank you very much. And thanks for being on the podcast today. This has been really fun. I enjoyed your book. I would recommend Un's book to anyone out there. You'll get the link in the show description, but thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it. James Spencer, you are the best interviewer by far. I really mean it. Thank you for awesome questions. Well, I will take that endorsement and we'll call it an episode. So thanks everybody for being here with us on Thinking Christian. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Hello, hello. Quinice Petway here, co-host of the Your Daily Bible Verse podcast. Are you someone who loves to take a deep dive into God's Word, one verse at a time, to explore his will for your life and desire to draw closer to him? If that sounds like you, I'd love to invite you to head over to lifeaudio.com and search Your Daily Bible Verse to tune in and subscribe for daily inspiration, life application, and spiritual transformation through the in-depth exploration of God's Word.