Thinking Christian about Slavery: A Conversation with Sean McGever

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I am joined today by Dr. Sean McGeever. Sean is actually the Area Director for Young Life in Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona, and he's also an adjunct faculty at Grand Canyon University. He's the author of a variety of books, including Born Again, Evangelical Theology of Conversion in John Wesley and George Whitefield, Evangelism for the Care of Souls, and also the book that we're going to be talking about today, which is Ownership, The Evangelical Legacy of Slavery in Edwards, Wesley, and Whitefield. Sean, welcome to the program, and remind me, I apologize. I know I forgot the title of that other book. I just didn't have my notes. Say the title of your other book just so people know. Well, appropriately, so it's called The Good News of Our Limits. So, you know, it points out that we can't do it all, including remembering information. We're not omniscient. So, yeah. I was close. I was going to say The Gospel of Our Limits, but The Good News of Our Limits is your other book. The one we're going to be talking about today. So, yeah. No problems there. That's awesome. Yeah, the one we're going to be talking about today is Ownership, and folks of the podcast will know I've had these conversations, similar conversation with Greg Quiggle with regard to D.L. Moody, and this issue of slavery within this sort of time period of early American history, and how some of the, we might call them, you know, fathers of the faith within American history or what have you, these bigger names within Christian history, how they engage with slavery. And so, we'll get into that conversation, but why don't you introduce us to you just a little bit? Give us a little bit of your background, how you even came to this subject, and why you were passionate about writing on it. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, James. Thanks for having me on, and I'm excited to share about the book. To be honest, it is an odd thing to be excited about, right? Who wants to talk about slavery, and why does anyone need to listen to, you know, some white evangelical in Phoenix talk about this? So, yeah, you teed me up for a common question that I get about this. So, yeah, here's kind of the backstory on why would I write this book and why do I think it's important. I didn't grow up in the church. I was introduced actually to the ministry I work for, Young Life, in high school, and I came to faith and got plugged into a church when I was 16 years old. And so, I grew through that by God's grace. I'm really thankful for that. Started serving in my church and Young Life, other things. Along the way, I realized that the gospel that I received, which I'm thankful for and eager to pass on to people even to this day, I'm still a Young Life leader. I'm going into my 23rd year of coaching high school basketball. So, you know, very involved in the community, all that. So I'm very, you know, active in this place. But it's still, even with that, the gospel I received as a 16-year-old came through an evangelical organization. As I grew in my own biblical knowledge, my theological knowledge, and mostly my historical knowledge, I recognized that what I received certainly is the gospel, but came through the hands of many people. And I received a certain kind of gospel with a certain kind of legacy and some things that come with it. So as I delved into that, I did a master's. I did an MDiv. And then I looked further into a second master's over at St. Andrews in Scotland. And when I was coming to wanting to do my PhD, I was encouraged to look at how the gospel is communicated in the early evangelicals. And that led me to a study of John Wesley and George Whitefield. The third player in that early evangelicalism is Jonathan Edwards. And for the sake of my PhD, I couldn't do all three of them, so I just did the two that came through the Holy Club and that were from England and all that. So my first book, Born Again Evangelical Theology of Conversion in Wesley and Whitefield, was really the systematic theology, historical theology, about the way that they understood conversion as a motif. But in the midst of doing that research, I came across some historical details and biographical details that, you know, when you're working on a focused project, you really can't attend to. They're off track and different conversation. But I made a note of those things. And, you know, honestly, as questions were arising in my mind about the legacy of racism and other things in the circles that I'm in with evangelicalism and just being here in America, I was just really curious about that. And so when I got through a couple other projects, I returned to that historical and biographical work with Wesley and Whitefield. And then it was also the right time to circle back on some of the historical details for Jonathan Edwards. So my question wasn't only about these three people, but it's also about the era. So early evangelicalism really would have started in like the first Great Awakening, which really kicked off in full 1730s or so. But if we just even take a bigger picture, step back and think about what happened from the year like 1700 to 1800 in that hundred years, not only was there a Great Awakening and God was working really powerful in exciting ways that are great. There's also this other thing happening, which is for the first time, Christians in power were starting to question the institution of slavery. And that century snapshot in the history of Christendom is fascinating. And Wesley, Whitefield and Edwards all play a part where Edwards and Wesley are born in 1703. And by the time that Wesley dies, he lives to be the longest in 1791. Things have changed. And so my book was not only a study on these three people that I find really interesting as a scholar of early evangelicalism and as an evangelical of a certain sort today, deeply concerned about preaching the gospel and those things are kind of the parts that I would still sign up for seriously. But also, what happened then? You know, a lot of a lot of Christians like myself go, you know, what do we do with this history of slavery? What do we do with these biblical passages? What do we do with these heroes that we have? What do we do with some of these maybe residual things that we sense in certain, you know, situations in evangelicalism that where did that come from or is that real? So that that century of 1700 to 1800 is an interesting time to look at where some things change. And so that's what this book is about and also about looking at some like heroes. Like I, there are many things about Wesley, Whitefield and Edwards that I think are wonderful and should be repeated and that we should celebrate. And there's also things that should not be celebrated, that should be known, that should not be surprised as to Christian leaders, Christian educators, even just someone who really wants to know the story of evangelicalism and say, you know, we know these things. They're not a surprise to us and we know how to navigate those. So one of the things I really appreciated about your book was you start off, I believe it's in the introduction, talking about this phrase that's often thrown around, a man of his time. These people were men of their time. And just in my work with D.L. Moody, I've run into that an awful lot. People, and I probably have even said it, quite frankly, you know, where we almost give this excuse. It's like, well, we all have our problems. You know, probably when people look back at us a hundred years from now, they're going to look back and say, oh my gosh, what was wrong with him? Why didn't he think of this? You know, if we're even lucky enough to be looked back on. Right. And so there's a sense in which I understand the idea that's being conveyed there, that, you know, it's hard to recognize that you're in the water that you're immersed in. Right. Like, you know, fish don't necessarily understand the environment beyond their water. And so there's a part of me that's sympathetic to that and understands what's being said there. But I think you raised some really important points. And I'm wondering if you can just speak to that phrase and why you were so uncomfortable with it. Right. Yeah. In fact, the marketing, you know, folks at the publisher, IVP University Press, they put it, I think they put it on the back of the book. If I'm not mistaken. Yeah. It says men of their time right on the top of the back. So they wanted to lead with that because it is such a common phrase that many of us, when we stop to think about it, are uncomfortable with, but still utilize because it it does speak to something that that helps explain things. But we go tell us more about that explanation, because I know that there's something about it that that needs to be unpacked. And so here's how I unpack it. To be a bit blunt about it, I think that the term it or the phrase itself is shows its kind of uselessness or its weaknesses

and a subset of people in 2024 right now. And there's, I can't avoid that. Like you just mentioned, sometimes people will talk about culture or our historical locatedness as like the second-hand smoke that we breathe without knowing that it's there. It's in the air. You can't control what you're born into, where you're born, and other things like that. Now, as you get older, you're more responsible and can navigate that. But you're right. I mean, I am a part of the time that I am. I'm in my specific, you know, I'm a man, here I am. So, but the thing that we need to recognize is that this is a very specific group of people who have specific norms. Now, if we were to look back, for instance, of the first person that Jonathan and Sarah Edwards enslaved, a woman who's described as Venus on the receipt there, is she a woman of her time? You know, what's her, for sure, Sarah Edwards, Jonathan's wife, and her do not share a similar outlook, you know? And so it just really quickly shows that what's normal for some people is not normal for others, even in a given time. So to, like, just say, oh, this is how people thought about this in 1740, for instance. Only some people thought about this. It was probably, when it comes to the institution of slavery managed in a certain way, it was probably people in power in colonial America. It would have been white people more who are landowners and probably Christians. So yeah, it just really quickly needs to recognize and have us point a finger on this, talking about a specific group with their specific norms. You know, yeah, I could go on with that, but that's, those are some of the features of that conversation. Yeah, so I mean, if I can, if I can sort of riff on that, maybe what we could say is that the times are just simply not neutral. That there are, that within a given time, there are almost always people who are, who have the ability to influence society in a particular way. And that that influence can be wielded in a way that is God honoring and that honors the image of God in other people. And it can also be used to influence society in a way that diminishes God and diminishes other people. And that doesn't have to be a totality. I think one of the things that struck me in your chapter was talking about, you know, these men aren't the villains. They don't fit cleanly into a black hat or a white hat. That these are, these are individuals who did amazing things, but who are also really deeply wrong and sinful on these other topics. Is that a fair way of kind of crafting it? Does that, does that represent something of your, your perspective on these? Yeah, some of the feedback that I've received that I'm most appreciative of is to avoid the binary of that these people should either be canceled or 100% defended and celebrated without any further discussion. And so it's so easy to fall into a overly simplistic binary on either end of a spectrum, extreme. And so all of us, I have some sort of quote that the moment that we think that we are better than anyone that we're writing about in this book is the moment is the exact issue that is behind slavery, which is some sort of hierarchical thinking that I'm better than you. We are all people made in the image of God who are desperately in the need of the grace of God. And there's no exception. Now we are going to reject anything that's sinful in us and that should change as soon as it's recognized or, you know, and we should graciously point out to other people. And so that extremism or expectation should be there that we're uneasy with everyone, to be honest. Now, some things are, have such powerfully terrible repercussions in the present and downstream from that, that, that, you know, they really need to be addressed and pointed out. Some things might be minor when I'm exaggerating about some sort of accolade or, you know, whatever. My golf score, you know, yesterday or something like who, you know, that there's not much that hinges on that. Other things that I've participated in have brought real pain into my life and to others. And, and they're not the same type of thing. At the same time, everyone is on the same playing field as far as we're going to be wrong. And I'm going to be remembered as having wrong beliefs. When I look back at myself from 5, 10, 20 years ago, there are things that I go, I shouldn't have done that. And I either acted wrongly or even believed wrongly. And I perpetuated that. The question is when I, am I honest about those faults? And when confronted... Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide. Or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. With them, am I willing to humble myself and accept correction on those types of, yeah, activities. So, yeah, yeah. Yeah, as we kind of sit back, I mean, it's hard to correct Wesley Edwards or Whitefield at this point, right? Because they're no longer here. And so what we're trying to do is glean lessons from them to understand how we might avoid similar mistakes in our own lives. Is that fair enough? Yeah, I was speaking to a gathering of pastors here not too long ago and white pastors, black pastors in the crowd. And one of the pastors came up to me, who's been a pastor for many years here in Phoenix. His dad had been a black pastor here in Phoenix for 40 years prior to that. And he said that his dad had taught him a phrase that he wanted to share with me. He said, my dad always said, you chew up the meat and you spit out the bones. And when it comes to people like Wesley Whitefield and Edwards, he was telling me, we can chew up the meat. They've got good things to say about the gospel. They were able to proclaim it and glorify God in great ways. But we've got to spit out the bones of the stuff that is wrong and evil. And so it's just important to recognize that everything kind of comes with a mixed bag, if you will, with that. And that really, like one of the toward the end of the book, I highlight some of the things that Dr. Charlie Dates says, which is that evangelicals are prone to hero worship in a real kind of unique way. In fact, like the way that evangelicalism is set up, even with Whitefield, who was the first transatlantic celebrity. I mean, he's basically the first, like as far as communication networks go, the first major, major, major celebrity. It does something to us when we have a gospel to proclaim that when we say these words, we could change your life. Now, the gospel does change life. We are ministers of reconciliation, but we don't actually do the reconciling. We deliver the information by the grace of God, through the power of God. But we don't do the changing, but man, it can go to our head so quick. And that can create a celebrity culture because there are people who are gifted or who just happen to be at the right place at the right time. And and it can go to your head. And really quickly, you think it depends upon you. And so we have celebrities. And so Dr. Dates is warning that we avoid hero worship is really wise on two layers. One, it's because if you start worshiping some sort of other Christian, it's just a matter of time when they're going to let you down. Like it's not if it's when they are going to fail you in a small or a major way. And you need to not have your foundation built upon the trustworthiness of any Christian hero, if you will. And similarly, it sets us free from expecting ourselves to be a hero to anyone else. Not to be self-deprecating or anything like that. Obviously, that's not what I'm not getting at that. But there's a freedom that comes when we can be honest that, you know, I'm going to, you know, say things are wrong. I'm going to, I'm going to say things that don't want to undo things that don't honor God. I never do that intentionally. I don't think that's at the heart of the gospel or God's plan for us. But with that, it, it, it lets us, it frees us to actually minister and proclaim God with a lot more power and grace because we know it's not our message. We are just the messenger of the actual reconciler of people and God. And that's, that's the Lord himself. So. Yeah. You know, one of the things I, again, another aspect of your book that I was really fascinated by were some of these theological assumptions that people made regarding slavery. Right. And I think that, and I definitely take your point. I mean, I, I often end up going to John.

1 John 1:9, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness, as a way to help believers understand that confession is a mark of the Christian life. It's not an anomaly of it, it's a mark of it. It's something that we do in order to realign ourselves and to affirm the truth that God has given us, that not all of our activities align with who God is, but by confessing those things, we ultimately agree that God is the one who sets the standard. And so we're agreeing that we haven't met that standard, thus we're agreeing with the standard. I think two verses later, it says, if anyone claims that they are without sin, their truth is not in them, you know? That's right. And even the Lord's Prayer is a constant reminder that we are to ask for forgiveness from our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. What is implicit in the Lord's Prayer is that we need to ask for forgiveness. Forgiveness, that's right. It kind of assumes you're coming to the Lord's Prayer with stuff to unload, which is kind of like, really, Jesus? You're gonna just say that when you pray, you may as well always confess because you, by the way, are gonna have some stuff you need to confess, you know? That's right. And I think sometimes, you know, as I was reading through this list of assumptions and you provide these, I think it's in the second chapter, maybe, fourth chapter, I'm sorry, what they assumed is the name of the chapter. And so, what I really appreciated about some of the, like, slavery is ordained by God. You know, you talk about a little bit about slavery, slaves must obey their masters. Masters must be temperate. You can see how these would emerge out of the biblical text. Oh, sure, yeah, they're there. You can, yeah, you can get it. Like, slaves deserve spiritual freedom. You know, this disconnection between the spiritual and the physical, right? That sort of separation. All of them have sort of, as I was reading through just the headings without getting into the meat of the chapters, you know, I was trying to think to myself, you know, how would I go about arguing this from Scripture? And I could come up with some ways. I don't think they're the best ways. I obviously don't think they're correct. But you can understand how the Bible could be used to justify some of these assumptions. These are not, like, totally off base. And so, you know, part of, I guess, what I'm wondering is, as we look at some of these assumptions that you've laid out, it's a little scary because they're so close. They're biblically justifiable, not right, but biblically justifiable. And I could see us doing something similar in modern day. Maybe not in relation to slavery, because we've got a whole history behind us, but in a number of other ways. And so I guess my question for you is, do you have a sense in which, as you were doing this study, you're identifying what really is at the core of the problem here? That there was a whole generation of Christians who believed these things, that looked to the Bible to justify these things. What was underlying all this that was really the problem, other than maybe just something simple like sin? Does that question make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's so many. That's a great question. And there's so many challenging responses that are not easy to unpack with that. So I'll give you a couple thoughts about that. The chapter before provides a brief history of the institution of slavery in civilization, which seemingly preceded even, like, Egyptian, you know, Jewish people being enslaved in Egypt, etc. You see it in Genesis with Abraham, other things before that. So providing some context for it, as it turns out, the Bible as it's written is already in a world that has the institution of slavery as some sort of norm. So it doesn't invent it. It seems to already be aware of that as a norm. So just one thing, if I pause right there, it would be that we are always influenced by our culture, even if we don't know it. So the norms of our culture are, I want to say, inescapable, but always influencing the way that we see things. Like, I'm wearing glasses. I haven't always had glasses. I kind of hit an age and they're like, you need glasses. So, you know, now I see everything through these things. Right. And it's hard to imagine not seeing. In fact, I don't even know that I'm looking through them all the time. And so, yeah, that that's probably one of the hardest thing, because it's it takes someone who sees things differently to say, do you know that that's what's happening here? That there is a different way possible. And that's what ends up happening in the seventeen hundreds. I think that enslaved people always knew it was terrible to be a slave. And you even get that sense from the biblical witness that it's not good to be enslaved. You know, let my people go throughout slavery is never talked about positively. It's never a desired station in life. So so it's always kind of like to be avoided to something. It's bad to be a slave. So that that's always there. But it's yeah. So what you get is the Bible tends to provide rules and about how to to manage the institution of slavery. It does not. And this is just a hermeneutical challenge. And it kind of it's a challenge for biblical interpreters and for us today. It doesn't immediately jump out at us that that slavery is wrong. It is. And we can make a case, but how complicated that is. The ultimate example of that would be like the Civil War. So when Mark Knoll writes a book called The Civil War as a Theological Crisis, the theological crisis of that, the primary one would be their division over how to to understand the Bible and slavery in the South and the North. There's additional layers in all that conversation. But like that is the topic about the propriety of slavery amongst our society founded, you know, kind of back with a background of Christian values. And so, yeah, it's it's not a straight like I think Mark Knoll and other go kind of say we can we can see how you can make an argument on either on either side. And so that's when we get to that third chapter or fourth chapter that is a snapshot of in the year 1700, how was it that English Christians looked at the institution of slavery? And I provide six claims about what would have been normal, sadly, normal, but normal for beliefs about the institution of slavery. And, you know, like the first one is that slavery is ordained by God. And you like you're right. You can make a biblical argument to come up with that now. And people did. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why for 17, 1800 years, that's why the institution persisted amongst Christians. And I think it's one of the reasons why it was so difficult to overcome and is slow and still has residual complications that result to this day. I think in some unusual but loud places in Christendom, even today, you do see some people argue for a version of the institution of slavery to be still in motion. If we were to and while I think that's completely wrong, evil and needs to be absolutely called out, it's not too hard to understand the rationale. Like, well, I could put those Bible verses together pretty quickly to with you. But I think we need to think better and deeper, not just from like, oh, you know, these days we know better, but like from an exegetical position, I think you're wrong. You're flat out wrong. So how you do that is important. There's not a lot of guides. There's some that are pretty some common explanations are not as reliable, I think, when I was in seminary and stuff and I asked these questions. The simple answers that I got, to be honest, are not not great and aren't consistent with how you read the rest of the Bible, too. So, yeah. Anyway, yeah. Let me let me throw a couple of things past you. For one, I wanted to sort of contextualize for the audience. I agree 100 percent that I think our culture influences us. And I think it what it does is it sort of I don't want to say structures out completely, but our society tends to structure in possibilities that are easy, easier to achieve than than maybe some others. So I think of in terms of like, let's say I was having a conversation the other day with somebody about fitness and I said, you know, today you have this whole fitness industry that's built up. Well, why do we have that today? Well, we're we're more sedentary where we, you know, we we have jobs that put us on camera sitting around talking to each other, writing books, you know, those kind of things. Right. More frequently than we have, you know, jobs that are out, you know, working fields or doing manual labor or those kind of things. And so if our bodies are now more sedentary.

does it not make sense that we also need an outlet to be physical in some way? And so when we think about our culture sort of structuring things in or out or making certain things easier or more necessary, I think we do have to look beyond just the ideologies that people might go to, right? This isn't just about, I don't know, political ideologies or something like that. It's also about just the warp and woof of our lives, the very basic things that we do. It's normal to take a Zoom meeting, for instance, right? It's not difficult. Like capitalism isn't the only ideological explanation why I go to the gym or something. Exactly. It's this host of factors that sort of structure this and make it make sense. And so as it makes more and more sense, we start to maybe lose the ability to question that activity in a more critical way. Not that it's either good or bad, but that there may be certain aspects of it that aren't helping us conform more closely to the image of Christ, whereas other things may help us conform more closely to the image of Christ. And so as Christians, we've got to be thinking both the positive and the negative of these things and understanding the limits of those activities. Right. Is that a fair representation? I mean, when you go, I don't have all this in the book, but like when people ask about the origins of slavery, while I think the institution and maintaining the institution is wrong, in ancient times, if one group of people went to war against another group of people and the losing side still has people who are alive, what do you do with these people? Do you just kill them? Do you let them go free or do you have them maybe work for you? And so you go, yeah, that's kind of one solution, is now they're indebted to us, they're our servants and slaves or what have you, because they lost and we don't want them to have freedom because we know what they do with their freedom. They'd go to war against us again. So like, you know, Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide, or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Eventually, you can understand some of these predicaments where someone would have power over another person. The question is, you know, is that long-term sustainable? What do you do with their children? You know, all sorts of other questions. I think which the Bible tries to kind of help navigate and provide some rules, but yeah. So there is like a background, but yeah, yeah. And the other thing I was just going to mention, you know, the one that really struck me was the first one, slavery is ordained by God. You know, by the time you get to number two in chapter four, slavery is a result of sin. I can get my head around that one no problem. Right. But what I see when we look through slavery is ordained by God, I think one of the main problems I see there with that sort of assumption, and I see it today too, is that when something is ordained by God, we tend to think of it only in the positive mode versus something like, you know, I'm an Old Testament guy, so like Jeremiah 26 stands out to me, right? God tells Israel that Nebuchadnezzar is going to be his servant to take them into exile. And then in the next, maybe it's two verses later, God says, and he will not escape judgment for what he's going to do to you. And so there you have an offense that's ordained by God that is also going to bring about the negative consequences of that event. And so when we think about ordination, you know, these idea that slavery is ordained by God, I think it's such a selective understanding that we're dealing with that oftentimes when it's comfortable for us, being ordained by God seems like a fantastic thing. When it's uncomfortable for other people or uncomfortable for us, being ordained by God isn't even a question. It's now something we need to change. And so, you know, within this span, you do have like the American Revolution, which, you know, if you think through the theological assumptions on both sides, you'd say, well, what's really the difference between being a colonial enterprise in the Americas versus owning slaves? Not that much. You're under someone else's control. We didn't like it. And so we decided to change it. But all of a sudden we think that slavery is ordained by God and we should keep this institution. There's such a paradox, a conflict in the way that these events are thought through that I just want to sort of highlight that because it struck me when I was reading through your book. I'm like, wow, this is alive and active today in many ways. And we just don't have good ways of thinking through it that we just tend to think that what God has ordained is a hundred percent good versus God ordaining it for a particular purpose that maybe we don't even understand and that it could very well be that God ordains it and it's something that Christians need to work against. So I don't mean to go too deep down that theological rabbit hole, but I wanted to throw that out there to get your reaction to it, just your thoughts. Yeah, I mean, you know, we're not going to jump in and solve the Romans 9 through 11, Pharaoh hardening. But at the same time, you know, it was proper for them to push against Pharaoh, though Pharaoh had been lifted up, you know, or in Romans 13, when authorities are lifted up, I mean, it addresses the same exact thing, that God has ordained the authorities for his purposes. However, they're instituted to do good, and so, you know, it's proper that you could rebel against authority when Pharaoh tells you to kill your firstborn, that the midwives are judged as doing the right thing and honorable and good thing when they don't abide by what Pharaoh had instituted. So you see that there are, yeah, clearly within like with Romans 13 and 9 through 11 in your example, that God does lift people up. It doesn't mean that you just have to agree with it. It could, for some mysterious reason, be that God is just navigating things in that way. I mean, so, I mean, when we think about, and my snapshot is in the year 1700 with English Christians and the influences of Wesley and Whitefield and Edwards, they trace it back in different ways, but it's going to be Puritans. And it's not that as the Puritans are all bad or whatever, but they're going to agree that God is in control in a certain way and he's ordered and structured society in a way that honors him, even if it might not be ideal to be, maybe the certain role that you play in your society isn't maybe the most exciting, God has, you know, ordained it in a certain way that's fitting and you serve a certain role. So whether it be, you know, husband and wife, a parent child, master slave, and then they'll go into more specificity. Some people are called to be pastors, other people might be, you know, servants or laborers or things like that. They go, this is all fitting to the way that God's sovereign hand has ordained this. And so the issue isn't really your place in society, it's how you live your life of faith in the midst of whatever, wherever you've been placed. And I can kind of sign up for that, you know, because, I mean, yeah, you know, wherever I have been placed, I want to honor God. The question is, are there some unjust and ungodly systems in place, like the institution of slavery, for instance, that we should rightly push against? And I mean, yeah, even in the New Testament, you get that sense, right? If you can receive your freedom, you should, or, you know, it's complicated. I wish it was more explicit, but you get hints at this to push against being the institution while it's not as explicit as we might want. Yeah, and I also think there's a difference between, you know, the New Testament's Roman context and what realistically Christians would have had influence to get Roman society to change on a governmental level versus what we have in America, where we can be politically active and expect to change certain aspects of it. We have mechanisms that they didn't. And so that has to be taken into account too, which is, yeah, well, if democracy might not be the perfect system, but it, yeah, there were avenues for our, that are afforded to us, or at least potential avenues that were not even close to being a reality back then. You know, if you lived in North Korea and you had a strong ethical concern about something that's happening there, you're probably not going to be successful having change happen quickly. Maybe, maybe in who knows through wild, you know, or a course of a lot of years, but that's not going to change overnight.

if you have a strong ethical position that you think is not just in certain countries, in America, theoretically, that could change. And we have seen change long-term, not all is exactly how we want, but there is a pathway for that, at least in theory, yeah. So let me ask you this, because I think it's interesting. I mean, I think everybody's going to agree that slavery was an atrocity, that this is not the way that humans are to relate to one another, that this is an effect of the fallen world, you know, all those kind of ideas. How did you see Edwards, Whitefield, and Wesley, how did you see these three individuals and their families treating slaves, orienting themselves to slavery? Did you see sort of a disposition of, we'll accept it, but we really don't like it? Did you see the sort of social innovations, let's say, Ephesians 5, where Paul talks about the way that husbands and wives are to relate in Roman society and the real social revolution that that brought around? He wasn't eliminating the hierarchy, he was fundamentally transforming it. Do you see that kind of thing in Wesley, Whitefield, and Edwards, or were they pretty run-of-the-mill in the way that they treated the slaves that they owned? Yeah, so just to be clear, Wesley never enslaved anyone. And you didn't say that, but I just want to kind of clear his name on that account. I have more thoughts about why that is, but Edwards and Whitefield did. Now, I want to be extra clear that the institution, Wesley changed his mind about, I think, at the end. He certainly did. He was against the institution. All of them, and so there's two topics that are really important. The institution and the management of slavery. Got to make those very clear. That's not clear in hardly any of the literature, conversation. Are we talking about the management of slavery or the institution of slavery? So just for a moment, I want to talk about the management, which sounds terrible, but I'm going to address that topic. In that conversation, all three of them would have been pushing for a very high standard, and this sounds terrible, but a very high standard of to do it in a way that they think is going to honor God and is going to respect the humanity of people. Now, I'm saying it's like fatally flawed. With that said, though, they actually come under attack. Now, Edwards is up in the north, and so what he is, like his norms as far as the management of his enslaved people and the people in his community are going to not ruffle too many feathers, like smaller households. I mean, while there's a generalization, it's still a generalization. It's still kind of true. Smaller households with maybe one or two enslaved people that might live in the house with the family, etc. Whitefield is spending the majority of his ministry. I mean, he's traveling a lot, but where he has his orphanage is down in Georgia. He's traveling a lot in the south, and this is where there's plantations, and so when he travels through and he's seen some massive atrocities, which I'm sure are happening in the north, but not nearly in the same way, the violence and just terrible conditions for enslaved people in the south. It's always bad, but I'm just saying it's there's other. Yeah, in the south. He does publish something that he gets a lot of pushback from, like about how the enslaved people are being treated, their lack of opportunity to hear about Christianity or practice their Christianity, the violence that is put upon them. He does advocate for the quote unquote more Christianly and benevolent management of enslaved people, and so he receives criticism. So some people, and you'll see this outline if you look up what was Whitefield's position. They might know that Whitefield enslaved people, but they'll say, no, he was a huge advocate for the humanity of enslaved people. And that is true. And so they'll confuse that he was pushing kind of like for the best version of the institution of slavery. And I think he was pushing for a version of that, and I think Edwards was, too, compared to their peers, while also having the fatal misunderstanding that the institution itself is wrong. And that became clear actually after they died. But yeah, I know they did push for, if you will, like the more ethical and Christianly management of the institution of slavery compared to their peers. Yeah. Which I find really, I love the distinction, actually, between the institution and the management. And I understand 100% why you're making it, because I think there is a sense in which the institution is what we tend to disagree with most because we've rejected the entire institution. Now, anything that happened within that institution is also gross and inappropriate, right? And so we sort of tend to think of it that way, right? It doesn't matter how well you treated your slaves. It's the fact that you owned them that was the problem. Right. And it's almost like we need to tease that out just a little bit and say, well, yes, obviously, the fact that you owned them was a problem. But there were gradations of the way that these people were treated that are reflective of at least some sort of moral conscience and theological understanding of these people were still made in the image of God. It doesn't excuse the practice, but it does maybe round out some of the rough edges or dull some of the sharper points. Is that a fair way to talk about it, you think? Yeah. I mean, we see this same kind of move in complementarian egalitarian conversations, you know, in no matter what side you fall on. And these are not. I'm not trying to say that that's the same exact type of parallel that these have the same repercussions, et cetera. Right. Well, I think they are in a similar conversation. I would say, you know, there will be egalitarians who will say, no, we we actually think that the conversation is fundamentally flawed on the institution level of patriarchy hierarchy. Like we just think that any differentiation is the issue. And then you'll have some people who will say, well, let's look at complementarianism as a gradation. There's some really bad examples of people, particularly men, who are just treat women terribly and are just bold about it. And then there's others that seem to do so in a really honoring way. And, you know, so you see a gradation in that. And so you see this similar kind of move where is that the gradation about how we do it or is that we're doing it at all? That some roles in society are not available to some people and to men or women or whatever. So these these kind of like institution versus management or institution versus gradation is a kind of similar ethical or even kind of. Yeah, move philosophical move there. Yeah. Yeah. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed with inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty? More families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text guide to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text guide to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. I think it's a really good distinction when I've thought through the issue of, let's say, slavery in the Old Testament, right? Servanthood and in the Old and the New Testaments. One of the things I've thought through is, what are the social relationships between people? How does God think about these broken social relationships between people? And how should we be considering these broken relationships? And I'd go somewhere odd, like the institution of kingship in the Old Testament, 1 Samuel, where you have a completely different hierarchy that's established from an earthly perspective. You're moving from a period of judges where things were a little bit, you know, you have a judge who is caring for and sort of shepherding the nation versus establishing a kingship. And in that narrative, God says, no, they're not rejecting you, Samuel, who was the last judge. They're rejecting me. Yes. And so there is, I think, theological implication to the institutions that we institute. And we need to get to that. We need to understand what that is. But even in that moment, what I find fascinating is that God allows them to go ahead and reject him and allows them to establish the kingship. And then there's all these downstream implications for this. And so there's a sense in which God even redeems the most heinous arrangements that we could possibly do. And we tend to think of this in terms of us harming other humans. But the reality is the rejection of God is a far more fundamental theological error. And here in this moment in 1 Samuel, we see.

And so there is this distinction, I think, that's really crucial between the hierarchies we establish and the way that we manage ourselves within those hierarchies, that there are redeemable moments within these wrong relationships that we establish that we need to take into account of. And that's sort of what I, as I was reading through your book, that's part of what I, I felt like I was resonating with, that you weren't trying to condemn these men necessarily. You're trying, you're obviously pointing toward and gesturing toward the, you know, the, the condemnation of the institution, to use that language. But I don't, you know, I never got the sense that you were condemning the men themselves. And I also didn't feel like you were providing apologetic for the men themselves. That there was this, there was this deeply helpful, nuanced treatment that these were sinful people who did some, you know, who God used in amazing ways. And so, I don't know, I just, I say all that to say, I really appreciated the way you approached the treatment of these men and the way you thought through this issue, which is very complex and very difficult. And you know, you can almost trigger people one way or another within a given sentence, right? But I just felt like you really nailed the, the balance between these two issues. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's fascinating. I hadn't thought about, I mean, yeah, I mean, the Scriptures are really clear that the Lord warns the people about the institution of kingdom. Yeah, I mean, he's like, you know what's going to happen, right? Like this is going to happen. You really shouldn't do it. But, you know, that's the institution they sign up for, and God works within that, which is just so gracious of God and lifts up leaders. but then, but you do see it play out. I mean, I would love to pick your brain maybe another time about more, more about that. But, you know, one of the things, when I wrote the last chapter, I had to do a couple different drafts, but in the, I'm a historical theologian. So in John of Damascus and some of the iconoclasm debates in, you know, 800, 900s in that era, what do we do with these icons, which is a totally, it sounds like a bizarre connection, but here's the thing. They decided, I think it was clear in Protestants. Yeah, we have lots of thoughts downstream from this, but this is the useful part, which is when we see another image bearer, it's right to honor them when they reflect the image of God. But we should never worship them because that's a confusion. It's to confuse a created thing with the creator. Now, when they reflect as an image bearer, the reflection of God, we say that's honorable. And then when they, when they don't because it's reflecting something else, we go, that's not honorable. And so all of us are both of those things where there's moments when we reflect the image of God and, and that's an honorable thing. And then there's moments when we don't, and that's an honorable thing, but none of it should be worshiped or pointed at as if that's the definitive thing itself. It's a reflection of a thing. And so with these men, with Wesley, Whitfield, Edwards, when they reflect the image of God and they say true and they do true things and they spur on good in the world for the sake of Christ, we should say that's honorable. That, that should be reflected by me too. Um, I'm going to continue that. And when they do things that we recognize as evil or say, we, we said that's wrong. Um, and so similarly with the Kings probably when, I mean, I'd love to hear your thoughts and maybe another time, but you know, um, the Lord said there's going to be great temptations that are going to come if this institution gets put in place. So, um, you know, there's, there's things of, which is why we could even call Jesus, you know, he's the king of Jews or king David or what have you. I mean, King David is a great example right there of person who clearly um should not be, um, you know, uh, reflected as some of his actions, many of his actions. But there's other things that are like, wow, how can you talk that highly of a human? You know, it's, it's wild. Well, he's, he's a man after God's own heart. And that shines through clearly in, in some beautiful places. But yeah, it's weird. I mean, I don't know. I don't want to sidetrack our thing, but the institution of the, of a, of a kingdom or a kingship that isn't where there's a king that's not the Lord. Um, yeah, I don't, I hadn't thought about, you know, no, I mean, I'll, I'll tell you the way my, my sort of simple analogy to this, and I think it relates exactly what you're saying about the icon issue. And I, I'm not a historical theologian, so that's a little new to me, but I'm feeling like it might resonate. So you ever play with a light bright when you were a kid? Oh yeah, yeah. Right. And so, um, if you think about the way a light bright works, it's a, it's a light box. You put a dark sheet over a pegged board and then you stick the colored pegs in through the dark sheet and the light shines through those pegs and you can make all different sorts of patterns, right? Depending on how you place those colored pegs on that, on that light board, you create all these different patterns. And so what I would say is that our societal configurations are similar to what we do on a pattern on a light bright that each of those societal patterns, and we could say this about individuals too, I think, but on a societal level, each of our societal patterns, we're going to recognize the goodness of God, the glory of God shining through those societal patterns at certain points. It's not a product of the society. It's that God is shining through. The light is coming from something else. It just happens to be reflecting through in this, in this unique pattern and another society is going to have a different set of unique patterns. But that, that black sheet that you put over the rest of the light to sort of block the light, those are also part of our societies too. And so what we end up having are, we end up having these moments where our society reflects God's glory out. And then those moments where our societies block God's glory from shining. And these, these institutions pattern themselves in that way. And so part of what we're trying to figure out is as we're looking at a society is, am I fooling myself into thinking that this is something that God's glory is shining through when really what I'm doing is I'm calling darkness light. And I think that's what we've got here with slavery, that this institution of slavery, people started calling darkness light when in reality there, there, you know, the American experiment for all its good and bad, it does shine forth the glory of God in certain ways, but not in all ways. Yeah, but don't confuse it as if it's, it's God or something. That's right. That's your point, right? Yeah. The light is coming from something else. Yeah. Right. And so that pattern that you create through these institutions, the, the, the way we configure ourselves relationally, that allows, you know, God's glory shines through there at certain points and it creates a particular pattern. But it's when we start to confuse that pattern, right? Like this system is created this light. Nope. The light is shining through the pattern. That's a good analogy. I like that. You know, I mean, is God faithful enough to be able to shine through the Roman empire? Church history would say, absolutely. God is faithful. Is God faithful enough to show through socialism and democracy and all sorts of versions of society? You go, you know, the light is still there and will not, it will not be blocked out by the dark. That's right. Like it shines through, but to confuse, you know what we should really have? We should have a Roman empire or we should have socialism or we should have democracy. We can debate those things, but don't confuse the source of goodness with the system that humans can layer on top of that. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. I, I'm gonna, I think, yeah, I appreciate that. I'm gonna think more about that. Well, I mean, similarly, like I, I wrote this, I'm not here to talk about my other book, but the good news is about limits. One of the, the things that's challenging is I think because Lord Jesus Christ is incarnate and took on a human body, we're easily confused to want to worship other humans, you know? And that's why, like going back to the temptation of evangelicalism when they're preaching the true message, which is the light. Um, and, and we're really appreciative for what they do. And some are really gifted by God's spirit to do it in certain ways. We get confused because yes, it would be appropriate to fall on our knees like many people did in the new Testament at the feet of Jesus and worship him. Who is a hundred percent divine and human. And, but then, um, when we see the light of Christ, um, shining through another human, the temptation is to worship um humans like we're only supposed to worship Christ. And so it's to confuse the two. It's to confuse the, the, the creator and the creation like Romans warns us. Yeah. No. And I mean, I, I'd actually wouldn't mind having you back on to talk about that book because limitation is one of those

but why did you think that this was an important topic to address at all? You know, what do you hope that readers who read this book get out of ownership? Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's two things. I mean, there's just a little nerdy part of me that I see things bubbling around in Twitter and other places where there isn't a go-to place for these three people. Not that too many care about them, but I wanted my book to be able to provide, like, a go-to source. And fortunately, you know, it had top-notch endorsements from the best historians, like Mark Knoll, George Marsden, Ken Minkema, you know, like the people. They've all are gracious. So, like, it is a resource to be able to clear up the story and tell it as truly as I could about these people, because for whatever reason, people like debating these people. That's not—so that's just a nerdy thing that only a couple of people will be interested in. The more important part is what I do in the last chapter, which is there's a four-step process of which I—the whole book is structured around, and then I turn it back on ourselves, which is—the four steps. One is for us to—and I have questions to lead us through all these. One is to recognize the situation that we're born into, of which we had no control. The second step is to understand our own participation into the setting that we were born into, almost like an age of accountability. You know, I can't—you know, I was born here in Phoenix, and I couldn't be born anywhere else in, you know, whatever, 1976. So, here I am. You know, there I am. But at a certain age, I look around and I go, you know, this isn't just because of where I was born. I'm participating. Like, I'm actively choosing. So, thinking through those sorts of stages in our life. And then a third stage, which would be action in one way or another to continue those sorts of things, or on a couple topics in my life, to say, I'm actually gonna—I want to go in a different direction, or I feel like I need to take some other ideas on board or adjust previous thinking. And then the fourth step, which is to think about our legacy. So, I think a lot of us—I mean, someone's gonna be looking through the book I wrote and the picture. You know, I'm gonna be on probably some—I don't know, Lord willing—some grandkids' hallway. There's gonna be a photo up of me, and they're gonna go, oh, you know that about Grandpa, right? You know? And I don't wanna say it's like a worry, but if I could think sooner about my legacy, because there are certain things I go, ah, man, should I—how should I think about that? Should I speak up about that? Am I right? Am I wrong? And I don't wanna just do it to create, you know, a bunch of chaos, but, like, I provide in the book a little bit of a reflective moment in the last chapter for us to think about the situations that we're born into, where we're at now, and where this—where we might leave our legacy. And so, that—that might be of interest to some of your listeners. Well, I usually close out episodes just asking guests one question, and so I'll do the same here. What do you think that Christians today should be thinking about in order to be and make disciples more faithfully for Jesus Christ? In order to make faithful disciples, we need to be fed the Word of God. I can't—I know this is just gonna sound so simple, um, but I—I want people to just be ingesting the Word of God as much as possible. Um, I—there's so much hype. There's so much lack of attention. There's so much, uh, screens and what's—what—bigger, better, all that. Returning to God's Word is the trustworthy, sustainable way to be able to make disciples. And so, as my own—as my own path and journey for discipleship, it would be finding ways to bump into God's Word in my own daily life at my church around, in—in pursuing, like food, uh, if I don't go with food, I'm gonna be starving, I would be spiritually starving if I didn't have God's Word. If man doesn't live by, uh, bread alone, but by the daily Word of God, you know, give us this day our daily bread. Like, that's what the Lord's talking about there. We need the Word of God. And so, I need that. And then, as I disciple other people, if I'm going to—and I meet with people. That's kind of what I do almost, um, nonstop for the last 20 plus years. Um, did this morning, meeting someone in a little bit later. Um, the Bible either has to be in the background of my conversations or explicit in asking people, you know, what are you learning in the Word? Hey, let's talk about this. Texting. I mean, it's pretty frequent. I'll text someone a Bible verse after I meet with them. Hey, this—this script, you know, our conversation made me think of this. So, um, not trying to outsmart the Bible, but instead leveraging it as much as possible in as many creative ways as possible alongside all the other things that we do. Some of those things are gonna come and go, but the Word of God stands forever. Very cool. Well, Sean, thanks for being on, man. This is a great book. I would absolutely recommend it to our listeners, um, you know, especially those who've been interested in some of the conversations we've had with D.L. Moody. These are three other giants of the faith sort of coming through in the American system. And it's just such a fascinating treatment. I'd encourage all of our listeners to check it out. Ownership. I'll put the link in our show notes. But, Sean, very much appreciate you being here. Thanks for writing this book, and thanks for being on the program. Yeah, thanks, James. Appreciate it. All right, everyone. Look for those show notes. Check it out. Check out the book. And come on back for the next episode of Thinking Christian. Thanks, everybody. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Has fear stolen your peace? I'm Jennifer Slattery, lead host of the Faith Over Fear podcast, helping you fight your fears and grow your faith. Subscribe at lifeaudio.com.