Thinking about Transgenderism, Social Contagion, and the Need for a Big Gospel: A Conversation with Dr. Ben Matthew

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Dr. Ben Matthew. He is professor of clinical counseling at Columbia International University in Columbia, South Carolina, if I'm getting that right. And he's also a licensed professional counselor in the Columbia area and has his own private practice, practices clinically. And so we're going to be talking a little bit about transgenderism and body issues today. And so, Ben, welcome. Thanks for being on the podcast, man. It's good to see you. Great to be with you, James. I appreciate our times together. Looking forward to this. Yeah. So tell everybody just a little bit of your background so they have a context for who you are and why you would be able to speak with some authority on these issues. Yeah. Background wise, my parents are originally from India, hence my great tan that's all year round. But I was born and raised in Canada. And so I kind of had the best of both worlds, you know, maple syrup and curry and all the joys of that. And I say all that because it gave me a, I think early on, I appreciated getting into different realities of life in my own life. And I think that much more in others, having to kind of manage different realities, right? Yeah. I think that's kind of what led me towards wanting to get into counseling. I just always was fascinated by other people's stories. Part of my background, my undergrad is in biblical and theological studies, but then I really wanted to pair that with working with people. So that's why I got my MA in counseling from Dallas Seminary and then ended up getting a PhD in psychology, which to me has kind of given me an opportunity both to train students to become therapists, but also, like you said, in my own private practice, I just love being able to get into ideas of how people's stories work. I love that in my own life and the ways God's kind of brought me to this point. And so the joy of being able to step into someone else's life, especially in those moments when the story doesn't seem to be working too well and trying to kind of help them as we've all gone through some of those realities. I love it. It's been a real joy. And for the past 20 years, I've been kind of working mainly in academic contexts, undergraduate, MA and PhD programs where I get to train the next generation to be able to enter into other people's stories too. So it's been great. And previously at Emmaus, right? So you've taught at Bible and Christian colleges. Am I correct on that? That's correct. Yeah, Emmaus Bible College in Dubuque, Iowa. I was there for about 20 years and helped start and chair the counseling psychology department there. And then this past couple of years, I've been here at CIU where we have a clinical counseling program, MA program, and now a PhD program in counselor education and supervision that I'm a professor in as well. Very cool. Yeah. Well, talk a little bit about what got you interested in, and I'm not sure, you know, you need a reason to be interested in transgenderism. I mean, it's kind of all over the place and we're seeing it. I mean, even, you know, we're filming this right after the whole Olympic thing where there's these questions about the boxers and all that kind of fun stuff, which isn't exactly transgenderism as I understand it. But point is, we're talking about this stuff an awful lot, an awful lot more than when I was a kid, at least, you know, it was pretty clear who was a man and who was a woman back then and you didn't have a lot of these body dysmorphic issues or transgenderism out there. And so, but what got you specifically interested in it? I mean, where were you seeing this and what prompted you to dig into it a little more? Yeah. Kind of on two fronts, to be honest. Part of it is kind of a little bit my own background. Like I said, I was from an Indian background, fairly conservative Christian context. Indian with conservative Christian. We never talked about sexuality. It was like, I don't know about you, but growing up, sex was dirty, icky and yucky, and you save it for the one you love. And like these realities of all of that coming together. So I think part of it was kind of a compensation of sorts, to be honest, where I never talked about it to where I was realizing I need to understand this. I need to engage this. If not for my client's care, for my own understanding. And so again, kind of those two disciplines that I've really enjoyed of biblical theology and counseling psychology. I was trying to wed those two together and really trying to think holistically about human sexuality and gender and the body, like all those elements that go into who we are holistically as image bearers of God. So on a personal level, that was kind of driving, to be honest, a lot of the reason why I wanted to get into this. Professionally, as a therapist who has a private practice, I was starting to see this more in my clientele as well. And so trying to think through, okay, how do I actually bring real help to my clients who are dealing with issues, if not of what we refer to as gender dysphoria, this feeling that I'm a man trapped in a woman's body or I'm a woman trapped in a man's body, at least hearing it enough and then wondering, is this something I'm dealing with? So it may not have been diagnostically speaking, meeting all the criteria of gender dysphoria, but I had more clients asking questions about it. And that got me realizing I need to think more about this. I see clients kind of on a wide range of realities and faith perspectives, some that are Christians, some that are somewhat nominal, some that have nothing to do with Christianity or any faith perspective. So then trying to think through all those different populations and how do I help the Christian who has some knowledge of the Bible and what it means to be holistically made in God's image, but also dealing with this other non-Christian who wants nothing to do with God, but is still struggling with it. How do I kind of think through that? So I think personally, I had like this motivation growing up of wanting to understand it better, but also professionally, I was needing to get some tools to actually work with my clients in a way that really provides them some sustainability in life. Those two realities really kind of helped me push into this area particularly. So it's really, it's interesting. I mean, I told you before the interview, I know nothing about this, especially not like the gender dysphoria and the counseling and the psychology. I've just never done any real research on it. I tried to prep a little bit before we had this conversation, but there's a lot of literature out there and it's, it can be pretty confusing. So I'm not even going to pretend that I know anything. So I'll just ask a couple of questions because I feel like I just need some clarity around these things. So, you know, one of the topics I've been researching lately from a theological perspective is what does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman from a biblical and theological perspective? And what I keep running into is there's the biblical and theological sort of descriptions and ideas that you can find in scripture. But then there are also these cultural conventions that come in. There's this idea of what an ideal man looks like. And you hear it an awful lot, these tropes about you should be able to protect the people in your life. You should, you know, be the hunter and, you know, the, the security provider or whatever. And while sometimes that expands to, you know, allowing men to bake soufflés, a lot of times, you know, what you're really anticipating is, you know, like me, right? Three quarter, you know, tattoo sleeves, lifting weights, grunting a lot, and, you know, having a general physical presence and, you know, kind of bullying things through or whatever. Like you have these tropes, what it means to be a man. But I think what I struggle with is I wouldn't say that just because I lift weights, that makes me manly. Right. I mean, I have a son, he doesn't lift weights at all. He's, I don't consider him less manly than I am. Right. And so there's these social conventions. There's what I see in scripture. And so there's some level of confusion. Like if I were going to direct someone and help someone, what does it look like to be a man? I'm having difficulty distinguishing that from how does someone develop appropriate Christian character? Like that distinction is difficult for me to kind of figure out. And so, but, so do you run into people, all that prologue to say this, I'm assuming not everyone has gender dysphoria or what they're really struggling with is that sort of definitional, I don't like the social conventions, the cultural conventions that are trying to squeeze me into a, you know, square peg in a round hole or whatever. Like, is that more of what you see or some of what you see versus an actual clinically problematic gender dysphoria kind of issue? Yeah. And for what it's worth, I have no doubt you can bake a mean souffle. Thank you. Yeah. Because

Yeah, he's like, mom's not supposed to do the cooking? I'm like, well, she can, but I like it. Like, I'm proud of it. Not to toot my own horn, but does that make me any less? And it was a great conversation with my boys to be able to help them understand that cooking or lack of cooking does not make me more or less of a man. Obviously, the natural next question is, well, then what does make you a man? Right. Which is both encouraging and somewhat like, well, how do I answer this then? So I appreciate your reality of trying to think through, at least with some of my clients and others that I work with, I'll say this, at the very least, there is something about the physical realities of male and female that are coming to play. So I often say, your biological is not the totality of your gender, if we can put it in that kind of way, but it is the starting point. There is some congruence between your biological reality and what gender means, right? And so at the very least, that's what I'm starting to see with most of my clients, is that there's some kind of physical alienation that they're feeling in their, as a male, that doesn't seem right. It's what we call incongruence, right? And usually what then it goes to is there's something physically that doesn't seem to line up with how I'm feeling about myself. And so the answer is then, I need to change something physically. That's how it usually, so there is a population of clients that I work with that I think truly do struggle with what we clinically call gender dysphoria, this marked incongruence, a feeling physically not congruent. I gotta be honest, I do think there's another reality. There's a lot of research in what we call social, let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Contagion, you've heard of this term before. It's the idea that, I'll give you an example with my kids. We grew up near Chicago. My mother-in-law is a Chicago Cubs fan. And so, unfortunately, I mean, fortunately, all my kids are Chicago Cubs fans. Exactly, right? So regardless of the lovable losers they are or not, the social context in which they were in developed in them this love of the Cubs, right? And so that kind of moved to them and they were contained, contagion as it were. I do think, you even mentioned this before, James, we are talking about these issues so much more than we did in our growing years, right? So the level of both social discussion, and can I even say social acceptance, if not social movement towards these realities, you can't help but be influenced by that, right? And so particularly when I'm dealing with adolescents or young men and women who are still trying to figure out, what does it even mean to be human, much less what does it mean to be male and female? And they're in a society and context that is conforming them to certain realities. I do think some of them are dealing with what I refer to as a social contagion reality, is that it's just everywhere. My friends are talking about it. It's on social media all the time. Can I talk to you about this? And I'm happy to, but I have to kind of decipher, is this a real physical reality that is manifesting itself in psychological distress, or is this more of kind of a social pressure, social contagion that I'm having to deal with? If it's more of this latter one, what I try to do is kind of talk them through this, realizing the short-term decisions you make on your body right now will have huge ramifications. And it's the case for both communities. Whereas for the former, what I'm usually trying to deal with is, okay, how do we then deal with these realities, again, recognizing any physical changes you make are going to have huge ramifications in the long run. We need to kind of work through some of those realities. But those are kind of the two contexts in which I'm seeing, and I'm trying to help people kind of figure out which one are they kind of more dealing with, if that kind of makes sense. It does. I mean, it's really interesting. I'll kind of riff off a couple of things you said. One, you know, this idea of embodiment and the biological embodiment you have in your environment being important. I remember walking, my wife and I were up in Chicago and we were taking a walk later at night, and she just made the comment. She said, this is something I never get to do if I'm traveling on my own. So for her, walking down the streets of Chicago alone as a 110-pound small woman, right? She feels very uncomfortable with that. And so you have this now merger of the biological with the emotional. She's having a stressful time and an anxiety-ridden walk if she's walking alone in the dark streets of Chicago at night. Whereas me, I found the comment, like I understood it, but I never would have thought of it myself. I feel comfortable walking in that environment. Now, it's not like I'm an idiot. I recognize that there are dangers and those kind of things, but there is something about being a 200-pound-something man that you sort of don't feel like you're the most likely victim. And so you have this sort of merger of the biological with the way you feel. And so what I'm kind of hearing you say, and maybe this isn't exactly it, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm transferring that and trying to understand what this incongruence could be, it would be like me walking down the street in Chicago at night with my wife and me feeling like I am at the highest risk of, you know, like I'm the most vulnerable person in the street. And so even though my size and my stature, other people might feel differently about that. For me, I feel like I'm the most vulnerable. And so now there's an incongruence between my biological reality and the way I feel about myself in that situation. Is that sort of a decent enough approximation of incongruence? That's a good analogy because I could, and I've seen you face to face. You're an imposing figure, you know, when I see you. And if you told me then, I gotta tell you right now, I'm feeling really vulnerable. I'm feeling really insecure. I'm feeling very marginalized. And I'd be like, James, dude, what are you talking about, dude? You just show me your tattoos. You'll be fine. That would seem so, as you said, incongruent. And yet to the degree that I have clients who are feeling that way because of whatever the realities are, and that's the other thing that I tried to get into is their kind of family systems or background or context. It all plays into it. But I think that's a helpful analogy to try and help them think through at least appreciating, and if there's something that I'm hopeful that Christians can realize, because you mentioned this at the beginning, if there is not a hot button topic out there, like this is it, right? Like, just mention the word and you get polarization on either side. My hope is that we as Christians recognize, yes, unfortunately, it has become so politicized and so polarizing in so many ways. And yet, don't forget, there are people that really struggle with this. Now, is it as many as we see in society, that's the social contagion side? I would argue probably not. But I do think there are people in our communities and our churches and our families that probably do struggle with it. And again, that doesn't mean that we need to move towards the affirmation that I think our society and clinically are moving towards. But at the very least, maybe start having some level of empathy, compassion towards those who are struggling with it and figure out, okay, how do we as Christians, how do we kind of step into that reality? And instead of just saying, well, get over it, maybe try to help walk with them, right? This is kind of going back to why I love doing what I'm doing is I wanna at least understand kind of like what Christ does with us. His incarnational model is he at least steps into our reality. It doesn't just tell us, well, get over it. No, he like becomes part of our reality, part of the problem as it were to bring us his solution. I'm hopeful that Christians can be a little more empathetic towards this in light of kind of the realities that some people are struggling with. Well, let me ask this, because I had a conversation on the podcast with a gentleman who works in legal studies. His name is Brad Dacus. And we talked a little bit about some of the laws that are being passed related to, you know, parental notification.

or anything like that. And I said, you know, I think it's strange because people would riot if I said, yeah, I'm gonna take my 15-year-old daughter in to have a face tattoo, permanent change to her body. We're just gonna get Mickey Mouse tattooed on half her face or something weird like that. Like, no. Nobody's gonna be like, yes, if she feels like she needs a Mickey Mouse tattoo on her face, you go do that. And I don't understand, and this goes to something you talked about a little bit when we were talking in the pre-interview, there's such a dichotomy, it feels like, where, you know, we're dealing now almost less with reasoned understandings of how we should treat our bodies and more with taboos and sort of sacred notions of what is holy and what is profane. Face tattoos are still pretty profane. Right? I mean, and so, you know, again, that dichotomy just struck me. And his comment on the legal side, and I'd be interested to hear what you have to say on the counseling side, he's like, most states you couldn't do that even if you wanted to, James. Like, there's prohibitions on that kind of marking of young people's bodies, even with parental consent. They're just not gonna let you do it. And so he said there is that dichotomy and that difficulty in the law where a lot of these things that are happening to younger children that parents are consenting to, medical professionals are consenting to, are on par, it would seem, with face tattoos, you know, as far as permanence and the way they influence life, but they're not legally situated that way. So you talk a little bit about, you know, your concern with that from a clinical perspective. Yeah, thanks. Like you said, face tattoos are still taboo. Even Mike Tyson, let's be honest, it's not a good look, right? Now, I'm not gonna tell him that, but I think we all understand. He pulls it off. He pulls it off. He absolutely does. Because your other colleague was absolutely right there. There's such a, there's an inconsistency, right? And that's what we're saying. As much as we recognize, and I've done some research on this, for those of you that know, when you do research, James, you know this, when you did your PhD, you did a lit review, right? You had to go in with the literature in your area. I kind of did a bit of a lit review. I looked at the research just within my discipline, within the world of counseling psychology, that tried to look at different, what I call body issues, psychological body issues. And what I was trying to do was highlight, for instance, there's this, there's this clinical issue called body dysmorphic. It's essentially people feel certain parts of their bodies don't fit well with them. Like their fingers are too big or their waist is too narrow, whatever. And then they want essentially to change that part of their body to match their inner reality. Now, if you look at the literature across counseling and psychology, most of the literature says how you are thinking about your body is wrong. We need to change your thinking. And so we do that through therapy. We may utilize medication management. You know, we may deal with anxiety issues, whatever it is. But somewhat consistently across social sciences, we look at body dysmorphia and we say, change your thinking. But then you come to what we call gender dysphoria. That's the clinical name for issues in transgenderism. And if you look at the literature all there, they all say we should affirm this transition. Yep. Change your pronouns, change your name, change your clothing. If not even medically change yourself. And you're like, wait, when this client over here has a body dysmorphic issue, we say, change your thinking. But when this person over here has a gender dysphoria issue, we say, change your body. Wait, but they're both body issues. Like, they're both at its core, an individual is feeling some incongruence with their body. But we're saying to this person, how you think and feel about your body is incorrect, change your thinking. But what we say to this person is how you think and feel about your body is correct. Change your body. Like, forget the forget the political issues, legal issues, theological issues that all need to be discussed. Just there's inconsistency within our clinical context in terms of how we deal with people who have these, what I refer to as body issues. They feel their body is not matching how they feel. We tell one person, change your thinking, and yet we tell the other person, change your body. I'm just trying to highlight, we're talking out of two sides of our mouth just within our own discipline. And unfortunately, it's, we've gone from what generally therapeutically we've moved from what we called watchful waiting in that whenever a person started struggling with whatever body issues, body dysmorphic or gender, we would say, you know what? Let me step into your pain and let's wait to see how this develops. Let me help you process through it before we make any radical changes. It's what we called watchful waiting. We've moved from that to affirmative affirmation. We've moved to this advancement when as soon as a client says, I think I want to transition from one sex to another, off the bat, all the clinical context says we should affirm that and advance it as quickly as possible. Move from watchful and waiting to affirmative advancement. We're just not consistent just within our own discipline. And to me, kind of like your colleague said within a legal context, we would never, we would never do this in one context and yet we're doing another. We've got to own up to that inconsistency at the very least. So when you say that, you know, the clinical context, I think there may be, I know I have some confusion around this. You know, I've dealt with a counseling program when I was an academic dean. We had a clinical counseling program that I helped oversee. And so I understand a little bit about the accreditation guidelines and how all that stuff works, but I'm, I've been out of it for a while now. And so. Is there, are there constraints being placed on counselors, clinical counselors, training clinical, you know, all of those kinds of things that would require you to be affirming or is this sort of like, you know, what we're talking about, like a social contagion, right? Like everybody's doing it. And so everybody should do it versus no, there's still discretion on the part of the counselor that that individual doesn't have to go this direction. Even if the prevailing winds are pushing them in that direction. I'm always trying to be somewhat optimistic when it comes to the lottery. And I want to look at our, whether it's accreditors or licensing boards or state agencies in that they do want to, you know, support the best practices towards the health of clients that we're working with. And yet I also realize, I want to be somewhat realistic in that there is most definitely a move, a push clinically professionally at the licensure level, at the accreditation level for programs that are, are training and clinical counseling, like I'm involved. The push is more towards affirmative advancement of gender issues that that's just clearly seen in the literature. And so I'll be honest as a professor in a Christian university where we're regionally accredited, we're accredited as a professional program in clinical counseling. Our accreditors are, are there. You got to be careful. I guess how much you're saying because Big Brother's always watching kind of idea. I'm grateful for our accreditors, but I am nervous to see how much they're pushing towards this. And generally they are, they're expecting clinicians who are being trained in programs should be engaged with the latest realities of advancement in these areas of affirmation. And so we're trying to figure out how do we then balance that with, let's say either a Christian clinician or a Christian client who may be struggling with these issues, but may not want to move in that. And yet our accreditors saying, well, no, you really should be moving in that direction. Why aren't you moving in this direction? Do we need to relook at your license if you don't? We're not seeing that quite yet in the areas of gender. We have been seeing it more like in the areas of same sex attraction, relationships. There are some states. There's legal cases in Minnesota, in Michigan, in California where therapists have said to clients, same sex clients, you know, in good conscience, I don't know if I can really help you because that's not my perspective, but I'd like to refer you to someone who can help you with this. And they'd been brought up as it were on charges by licensing boards. I see that possibly more of a way we could go if there aren't other checks and balances to kind of keep that in mind. At the same time, I realize You know, when you look at the history of the church, and you know this better than I do when Christians come up against hardship, this is when the gospel can shine. Right. So I don't tend to look at the hardships that may come from accreditors or licensing agencies as necessarily. I don't want it. So I'm not like looking to get kicked in the teeth. Yeah, understood, understood. At the same time, I've got a big God and a big gospel.

knows that we as Christians are trying to live this gospel out in the best way we can, and that if that pressure, that hardship does come, that's generally when the gospel tends to flourish the most. And so I try to take not just solace, but rejoicing, kind of like the church in Acts did, right? That they were counted worthy to suffer on the cause of Christ. I'm trying to instill in myself and in my clients and my students, I think things are going to get harder for us as Christian clinicians, but I think that's when we can probably really present Christ the best. Yeah. And I think it is important to just say, I mean, my experience with the creditors was they are trying to guard against manipulations of clients. I mean, that client, and I mean, I know this in a far less meaningful way, but when I was a personal trainer, I had clients. And there was a sense in which they trusted me to guide them along their fitness journey, and I could have done anything I wanted. They don't know, right? And so there is a fragility and a vulnerability that comes in when you're working with clients. And I think that the creditors at their best have that in mind. They want to make sure that they're protecting clients and elevating the discipline that they're overseeing. And so I think that's important to note. It's not like they're the evil creditors out there. They're trying to do what's best for both, I think, clinician and client. And so I can understand where they're headed with, you know, let's not manipulate our clients when they come in, but it just feels like there's a truer north that could be followed. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. And no, we're not here to manipulate them, but we still have to be here to help them. Right, right. And that's really, that's a great point, James, because I want to affirm the good that our creditors and licensing boards do give, especially in the countries where there is what we call a power differential, right? As a therapist to a client, I need to recognize I hold immense responsibility and power that I need to respect for the good of my client. Creditors are trying to hold us to that as well. And to the degree that I try to then help my students, if not myself, that much more understand what clinical excellence looks like as a Christian means that I do have a robust understanding of God's call in this, which may mean I may not give those specific details to my client, right? So what I mean by that is, I might have a, one of the things I try to help with my students is have what I call a fully formed theology of the body, right? Creation, fall, redemption, restoration, glory. This idea that the body really matters to God. Like he creates a body different than anything else he creates. He, the fallen realities of it, but it's so important to God that God takes on a body, incarnation, to where then he redeems the body. And I think there's going to be a body in glory, right? I think we're going to get a body 2.0, as it were. And I try to kind of lay that out, but I try to tell my students, you may not be able to give all those details to your client. In fact, your client may not even want all those details. That's right. But it's still really important for you to have that developed robustly in your own worldview so as, to your point, how do I still help my clients towards a North Star? Something that helps them not just survive, but thrive. Even if it isn't explicitly Christian, it's still for their betterment. And that's ultimately what I'm trying to do with whoever comes across my path. And one of the things I'm trying to do with my students. So we spent a lot of time talking about, it was actually Pope John Paul II, who actually wrote an encyclical on the theology of the body. And just a really, really robust way of engaging with it that at least helped me kind of think through, how do we as Christians think about how God thinks about the body? Imbibe that reality as part of our worldview. And then how do I live that out to my clients in a holistic way? Either explicitly or implicitly, but nevertheless, realistically. That to me is really what we're looking at to do. It strikes me, what you're articulating there is something akin to what Augustine does with philosophers in City of God. So he's critiquing politics and he obviously has his issues there. Then he gets into the philosophers. He's much more amenable to the philosophers. And one of the commentators I was reading on him, she referenced, if politics is partial, Augustine viewed philosophy as at the very least less partial. And so as Christians, I think we have the full picture. And we're dealing then with conveying these partialities to other people and trying to help get them a little further down the road. As if we see in Acts 17, our nations exist so that the people within them can seek God and perhaps find him. And so we're trying to sort of press them a little further down the road and gesture toward God without actually saying, Hey, here he is. This is what you need to do. This will solve all your problems because it won't. And so we're constantly dealing in these partialities. Yeah. It's a difficult thing to do. And I'll say for me, sometimes I'm just impatient if I'm honest with myself. Because I just grab people like, Don't you know there's a better way? Like, come on. And not because I'm so much smarter. I'm the phrase, I'm one beggar trying to tell another beggar where to find food. But sometimes I just want to like just implore them. Just take it now. And yet I realize the process is just as important as the end product. And again, if I've not a big God, he's the one who's doing the work here. Do I trust him in his timeline? So can I just be a good neighbor who just sees someone on life's journey who's really beaten up and bruised on the side of the road and realize, you know what? My job right now is just to be a good neighbor and just to love them in the best way I can. How God uses that to bring them to fuller, to less partial realities, as it were. Right. That's his timing. And maybe he'll use me as part of that even further on. But right now, I just want to be a good neighbor to a guy on the side of the road. Yeah. Hey, let me ask you sort of a tangential question. So we're talking a lot about the inconsistencies of the way that, you know, we've mentioned legal and clinical treat the body. And one of the areas that I've kind of dug into, and I'm interested to see if this came up anywhere in your lit review, this idea of transhumanism. I don't know whether you're familiar with that, but, you know, the strongest form of it is to say that we should be able to use technologies of all sorts in order to overcome our biological limitations. And in part, what I see is that, you know, transhumanism has been around for a long time. You know, we've had it, you know, probably as early as most people put it as early as birth control. I would say plastic surgery is an iteration of transhumanism. Now the weight loss drugs that people can take to use weight chemically alter their biological state, you know, and sort of use that. I'm not saying that's completely inappropriate, but the idea is that you have all of these things now that you can do to change your body. And I'm wondering if you see any influence there, you know, because we can is turning into, so we should. No, that's really interesting. To the degree that I think even the areas that I deal with my clients who struggle with this, there is this desire to use the body to get something better. I can phrase it that way, right? How can I change, manipulate, form my body in a way to get something that I believe is better. Now, whether or not it is better, that's another whole issue. The processing, at least internally of the individual is I'm doing something to my body to get something better. Ontologically, or at least like internally, I actually want to affirm something there. And what I mean is the body groans for something better, right? We're in this context now of the already not yet, right? Yes, Christ has come.

He saved us, he's saved us from everything. And yet, it's not done, but the final ta-da is not yet completed, and that's partly physical. And so part of me looks at that and says, I want to affirm that there is this longing for something more, like a fuller completion that is not just cognitive, it's not just spiritual or emotional, but it's also physical. Because we are holistic beings, right? Yeah. So I remember talking to, I had this one client that I was talking to, and we were talking about the Ethiopian eunuch in the book of Acts, right? Yeah, yeah. And you know this better than I do, James. I mean, the fact that one of the first converts into this new reality of the church is a eunuch, which in the Old Testament context, I mean, those guys were on the outs, right? Right, right. Very marginalized. Very marginalized because of the physical deformities. And yet, one of the first indoctrinies, as it were, to the kingdom of God's work in the church, is this person who has this physical deformity. And I think as a point to kind of highlight, yes, your body doesn't prohibit you from coming into the kingdom because there's this great reality. And yet, this is not the way it's supposed to be, to quote Plantinga, right? Like, there's something better that we realize is coming. And so there's something about that that I want to affirm, but then ask the question, are we trying to do this change, this work in our own strength, or are we willing to dive into God's work that is wanting to do the change? Yeah. There's something about that that I gotta think, I wanna affirm the good drive. I want something more. I want something better for my body. And yet, what am I willing to put my effort, and work, and faith into to change the body? And recognizing God is the one who, that's part of the gospel, right? Is having this faith in already not yet. Like, he's still coming. I don't know if that's kind of making sense in what I'm saying. It is, and I think one of the things you're, you know, what am I willing to put the effort and the work in to change my body? I think part of the challenge that I see in all of this, and I think we've kind of danced around this a couple times, but you know, transhumanism would use technology to overcome the biological limitations of the body. That's a really convenient way to change the body. In other words, it doesn't take a whole lot of effort. You can get the body I want without really doing, or at least there's a perception that it is not going to hurt. I'll say it that way. There's a perception that it's easy, right? There's a perception that this is a sort of a panacea, and I can get there without the effort. Compared to what you do as a physical trainer. Very different. Very different, much longer, much more intensive. Right, and I think that's the similar thing with, you know, sort of what I hear you saying in part, at least with the clinical context is, you know, if you're working with somebody with body dysmorphia, they're going to have to go through the effort. But right now when you're working with someone with gender dysphoria, there's a push for them not to go through the effort and to take a path to congruence that is being sold as easier, but I wouldn't assume that it actually is easier. Yeah. You know, I see a whole study between physical training and theology and counseling and body dysmorphia. That's right. That's a great parallel you're putting up. If you told one of your clients, I can either put you on a, you know, a six-month regimen of diet and fitness and exercise and all these things, or I can get you this plastic surgeon who can get it done under local anesthesia. Right. Standably, our human nature is going to tend towards the easier. It's like, oh, well, absolutely, why not, right? Right. And your point is well taken that within a clinical context, that's essentially what we've done for our clients. We've gone from, listen, I want to acknowledge this really is hard and it's difficult and you're feeling this incongruence. Let's figure out how we can build patience and tolerance and engagement and faith, if you're from a faith perspective, that the struggle is actually good, not just for what you get on the end of it. Right. The struggle itself, the process is good. Or we can do the surgery real quick that got rid of all of it. And what we're finding clinically speaking, those who engage with the medical interventions, particularly, what we're seeing already from the studies out in Europe who have been doing this a lot longer than we have here in America, we're seeing significant what we call detransitioning because longitudinally people do the surgery and it doesn't help. It's not working to the degree that they thought it would. And so they're coming back to the realization, if anything, it's increasing anxiety. It's increasing suicidal ideation. The quick fix didn't work and we need to go back to the starting block. Yeah, so to that degree, we're kind of setting up this dichotomous false narrative that says the quick and easy is better. Usually it's not. I think the scary part for me, and again, coming at it from sort of that transhumanist and technologist kind of perspective, as I've looked at those things is technology always has the excuse of, well, it isn't working yet. Yeah. And so, you know, you can't rule out the idea that someone who's had a, you know, a transitioning surgery, that you'll have people who are saying, well, it didn't work because the surgery is not good enough. Right. You know, That's not, it's not that this is, you know, that we should be approaching this differently. And I think in part, in my sense, in a lot of the, again, the technology side, and I don't know what kind of analogies we could draw to the clinical side or how much it would carry over, but my sense on the technology side is we don't take that effort and struggle into it. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. 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I mean, there's no, you know, peace in this life. You know, the already not yet and that struggle for something better. But there is definitely something to the work and the effort that I think changes us in important ways. And, you know, struggling with a botched surgery or a surgery that didn't meet your expectations is a very different thing than actually trying to figure out how can I be at one with myself and my body? Those kind of things. I deal with this with my clients a lot. I want to see them move past difficulty, right? We all want that. We want to see growth and development in all of our lives. That's a good inclination towards that. And, I'm not going to say but, it's a, it's a both and. And I want them to struggle through knowing that the struggle helps them get to the thriving. That, to put it in the writer of Hebrews, right? That this endurance that God calls us to, this practice of faith for the race that is one set before us, that the running of the race, we're going to get to a destination. There is an end goal that we all want that provides culmination and fruition of life. But the running of endurance in this thing called faith, that that builds the muscles, that builds the character, that provides more insight. If we're a Christian towards the person and work of Christ, but even for a non-Christian, that actually helps them in their thriving. Whenever I deal with clients who are dealing with these transgender issues or how do you even say just even sexuality issues, they're really struggling with same-sex attraction or identity issues. One of the things I try to help them understand is that these struggles may never go away, right? This may be, as Paul said, your thorn in your flesh for the rest of your life. And you can ask one, two, three times. You can ask a million times and God may say, no, my grace is sufficient for you. And so am I willing to

The phrases I give to my clients sometimes, are you willing to embrace the thorn, not for the thorn itself, but what the thorn is showing you of God's grace in a way that is developing you as a character, that's becoming a harder sell, if I can be honest, in today's culture. Whether it's the postmodern, the metamodern context that we're in right now, where I want to define my own reality on my time and my terms, and what you're selling me, that takes a little too long. Right, that seems like it's going to be really hard and take a really long time, and so, yeah, no, there seems to me that there has to be some sort of deep thought put into this, and I don't love the term balance at all, but I do think that we have to keep in mind the importance of struggle and the ways that technologies and medical interventions and all of those kind of things can help. But I also get this deep sense that we're not thinking through the dangers of pushing those too far. Yeah, because it's a quick fix. If someone can take, I'm thankful for God's common grace in medicine and that someone who has diabetes can take a pill or insulin and prolong their life and give them a quality of life. I'm so thankful for that. And are you looking at your diet? Are you looking at your exercise? Are you looking at, I mean, yeah, I'm with you. I'm not a big fan of the word balance. I'm a better fan of the word tension. I like the tension that we as Christians, I think we see in all of life with God, but I think we're so prone to try and keep me at all in balance. What if we hold these in tension that, yes, I'm thankful for God's common grace that can help me engage and really push me in the ways that I need to step up, right? I call it God's sovereignty and human responsibility, another can of worms we won't get into. But I think both are something that we're trying to push towards when we come to dealing with people and the struggles of life. Well, man, I mean, we've covered a lot of ground here. I usually kind of wrap the episodes up by asking this question. And so I'll be interested to hear what you think about this. So what do you think that Christians should be thinking about today that will help them be and make disciples for Jesus Christ more faithfully? For me, you know, when I when I think about the ways in which, and I've referenced this a couple of times, I want I want to see a big God and a big gospel that that brings such joy to us that you can't help but let it come to others. That so I guess for me, this internal motivation that I'm looking for my own life, for my marriage, for my kids, that is so derived from this big vision of what the gospel is. That is not me. I'm not the center of it, but actually, that's that's where I get the greatest joy. When I realize who God is, when who Christ is and what he engages with. I want to help people get a bigger vision of that so that that motivation to then just live that out is, is understandably infectious, right? I talk about, I talked earlier about my mother-in-law and her joy of the Chicago Cubs. I do not have to twist her arm to talk about the Cubs. It just naturally flows in her clothing, in her language, in her finances. Like she just loves the Cubs. She has for over, you know, 70 years. And yet, I find myself wanting, I want that for myself and other Christians. And so then when it comes to these issues of transgenderism or transhuman or whatever issues we're kind of speaking into, how do we get a big vision of God and his gospel that then informs how I engage? And again, that doesn't mean it's explicit. I may not explicitly say, hey, let me share the gospel with you, but it does inform how I'm compassionate, how I'm empathetic, how I'm caring, how I'm listening in a way that embodies, that is incarnational of the person who is the gospel, Jesus Christ. That's what I want for myself. And if I figure if I can see that in others as well, I think we're that much closer to, to seeing God's kingdom and his will done here on this earth. When do you think, I'm going to break my own rule and make that not my last question, because I like that answer. But one of the areas, you know, we talked about social contagion and one of the things that strikes me in what you're saying is that we also, that big story, that big gospel, that big God gives us the insight necessary to offer real critiques. And I'm not saying be critical, hate on things. I mean, offer incisive, insightful critiques of something that someone might see on social media, for instance. Like one of my favorite little memes that scroll by on Instagram, I'll see it occasionally, is that it's a, no one will love you unless you get bigger muscles. And it's like, you know, these pictures of guys, you know, working out and they're just working out all the time. You feel horrible about yourself. Nobody loves you. And it's because you don't have big enough muscles. And it's amusing, but in the comedy, there is a reality. I think a lot of people feel that way. And so, you know, when I look at that and I, you know, I chuckle at it because I understand it. But at the same time, I do think pretty deeply about these issues and try to figure out why is that message? Why is that idea so persistent and so prevalent? What is it saying about the way we love ourselves? What is it saying about the way we love our neighbors? What is it saying about the way we should love God? How does all that work together? And that's what I mean by an incisive, insightful critique. It's not just, you know, slamming that video in the comments or something, but it's nudging people away from that idea towards something better. And so I'm sure in your practice, you get that a lot. Like, you know, the influences are out there. And surely part of what you're training students to do and those kind of things is really offer those incisive critiques, not just saying, hey, you know what? Jesus is Lord. End of session. But really helping people, you know, move away from these ideas. Is that a fair? That's so good. Yeah. Yeah, the answer may not be bigger muscles, but what I appreciate what you're saying is it is scratching on something, right? It is digging into something that is maybe not bigger muscles, but bigger God, bigger God. Now, they would never say that. And in fact, I think human nature is prone to move away from that given all the spiritual realities. And yet, you know, you quoted Acts 17. Paul uses that as kind of an affirmation. You're grasping. You're seeking. You even have one for an unknown God over there just in case, right? Well, I'm going to tell you. And he gives a very explicit present. But what I love about Paul is that he recognizes. I mean, he even quotes pagan philosophers in that context, right? Right. The medities of kenosis and others where they're writing about Zeus. And Paul's like, well, no, actually, in him, we live and move and have our being, not him. Right. But Paul acknowledges that you all have this desire, this drive internally to be loved, to be noticed, to be recognized that you're working really hard to do or you're doing something else. And yet the drive for significance is not wrong. What you drive towards for that significance, that may be the issue. Yeah. And so how do we, yeah, to me, that the fully formed, robust gospel that is endless and deep and is going to be an eternity to dive into informs how I then engage. Yeah, like you said, right? Not to be a jerk and be like, you know, Right. How does Jude say earnestly contend for the faith, but don't be contentious in your faith. That's some parts of my addition there. I think it's appropriate. I think it helps me because I want to, I want to live my faith consistently and I'm going to have to contend for it. And we are in a culture in contexts like this and discussions like transgender where we have to contend for our faith. Yeah. But hopefully when we see the bigger gospel, it doesn't, it takes the edge off us in a way that, listen, they're already going to be angry at Jesus and the gospel. Let's not give them another reason. That's right. That's right. Well, Ben, man, I appreciate you being on and having this conversation with us. I think we, uh, we had a really wide ranging conversation and didn't get overly clinical for folks. But, uh, what I hope people walk away from this with is a framework to ask some different questions about these issues and an understanding of the variation that can occur within this transgender conversation. It isn't just all one or the other, you know, gender dysphoria or, you know, just social contagion. There's a whole range of different things in between there that people need to be thinking about. So we shouldn't approach this as a univocal issue or a singular issue. And so, um, yeah, I appreciate you being here, man. Really. Thanks for being here. This is great, Jay. I really appreciate it. I appreciate you trying to, like you said earlier, think deeply.

some of these issues and to the degree that we can help move the conversation for others, I love. Thank you so much for letting me be here. Yeah, no problem. That's the goal. We will have a link to Ben's faculty page in the show notes. So if you want to find out more about him, see some of the stuff he's done, feel free to visit that. And otherwise, we will catch everybody on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Thanks for being here, everyone. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Ever walked away from a conversation thinking, wow, now that was exactly what I needed. Hey, I'm Donna Jones, host of the That's Just What I Needed podcast. Each week, we have great conversations about life, faith, and how we can know, love, and follow God in our everyday lives. Listen and follow at lifeaudio.com or on your favorite podcast app. Can't wait for you to join me.