Thinking about the Way We Spend Money and Support Businesses: A Conversation with Christina Werner from Public Square

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Christina Werner. She is the SVP of Strategic Partnerships at an organization called Public Square. I just learned about Public Square at the Politics in the Pews event that I attended here just in September sometime. And so I invited her to come on the podcast and talk a little bit about Public Square. So Christina, thanks for coming. Thanks for being here. Why don't you introduce yourself just a little bit and then tell us what Public Square is. Sure. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Honored to be here. So fun to get to connect with like-minded people. And it was great learning about what you're doing too at Politics in the Pews. So it's always fun to meet new people going after great things. Yes. Currently, VP of Strategic Partnerships at Public Square. I have been there from the very beginning. So I've worn a lot of hats, but this just means now I get to do what I actually love, which is connecting with people and it's the best. I feel like somebody in the office recently said, they're like, you just get to be like a friend. You're like the professional friend of people. I'll take it. Sounds great. I love that job. I love people. It's great. So a little bit about Public Square. I feel like if I share some context and some backstory, it'll help. Corporate America, right, this is probably not new to your audience, but has been actively working to destroy the values that the majority of Americans tend to hold dear, our Judeo-Christian values. So, I mean, we have seen it crazy over the past few years, whether it was vaccine mandates, whether it's censoring speech, which I see happen all the time, the indoctrination. It happened with my kids in school, virtue signaling the social justice movement. We were talking about Target, you know, that happened. But what are the majority of Christians doing about that? Right. So tens of millions of us continue to keep giving our money to these corporations and these big businesses. And I don't feel like that is because that's really where we want to. It's just where do we find an alternative? So that is where Public Square comes in. We are actively working on building a parallel economy and this is it's thriving. It's going fantastic, has built faster than we ever thought it would in such a short time. But we really feel like if a business does not respect your God-given freedoms, if they do not respect your values or they're even donating antithetical to those values, it is time to take your money elsewhere. So that's what we're building. Very cool. Yeah. And before the episode started, I had mentioned, you know, I wrote on Balenciaga. Balenciaga had their weird photo shoot thing with teddy bears and children and all that. And, you know, I made the comment. It was easy for me to stop shopping at Balenciaga. I mean, I'm a real high class guy, but I didn't really even know what it was. I had no idea. Like I have no context for Balenciaga or any of that. But when Target hit, you know, it's like, well, what do you do even if I don't want to shop there anymore? You know, what are my alternatives? And do I honestly think that those alternatives aren't doing just exactly what you described, you know, taking and turning around and giving their part of charitable donations to causes that I wouldn't agree with, you know, or doing other nefarious practices that, you know, I'm just ignorant of. And so Target is being punished for doing something overt, whereas everybody else could benefit from doing something covert, but being just as bad. And so, yeah, it's just an interesting dilemma that Christians, I think, or really any people who are holding different values in these corporations as the corporations started to, you know, sell more than products. They started to sell an ideology. How do you escape them? They sure have. And in fact, with the Target debacle that was going on, I was actually at a pastor's summit when that had just come out. We had only been nationwide a little over a year, I believe. And I'm in the middle of explaining what Public Square is. And this pastor looks down at his phone. I'm going to download this app. And he goes, oh, the app that's number three worldwide in the app store right now. And I said, oh, no, no, surely, surely not. And he picks it up. He goes, yeah, it is. And so thank you to Target. I call them employee of the month for that season because of the choices they decided to make in their stores. We had moms in America all over the country downloading Public Square saying, I need to find an alternative. I do not want to support these type of agendas and this indoctrination. Where do I find these alternatives? So I think because of that, it ended up making us the nation's largest marketplace of businesses that celebrate life. They celebrate family values. They celebrate freedom. And so you can go there and know that you're not funding any weirdness, any woke nonsense, but great, amazing businesses. I want to talk a little bit because, you know, we're kind of comparing it or contrasting it, I suppose, to Target and, you know, some of those other places. But it's not just apparel. It's not just, you know, like what are what are all the different kind of businesses on Public Square? Yeah, you know, I think that's one of the funnest parts of having been a part from the start. Right. We started in Southern California. It was during COVID and it was very clear there were businesses and people actually that were not being served, businesses that were being shut down. So it started with your local support, your local economy, support these local businesses. Now it's nationwide and it has grown not just from brick and mortars and services, but there's e-commerce. There's all types of businesses. So you can find schools on there. In fact, I found my son's school this year on Public Square, which is fun. You can find churches. We had recently a pastor send me a picture of their latest member of their church found us on Public Square, knew that they were values aligned, that they support life, that they love freedom. And so it can be a nonprofit. It can be e-commerce. That was the last thing that we just launched is a lot of our consumers were saying, OK, can you compete somewhat with Amazon? You know, we know you don't have a delivery trucks in a store warehouse yet, and that's we really want to connect you with the small businesses. But we did bring that in-house to within the app. So if you have products, you can upload those basically into the app and you can scroll through and find different products and services that are just within Public Square app. Very cool. Yeah. And I mean, I've been on the site and on the app and there's a lot of different things on there. I was surprised, a little surprised. I live in central Illinois. And so we're near St. Louis, so not a hugely populated area. But there were several places on there that are on Public Square app. And so it's just kind of cool to see that. I saw a couple of handymen that I probably have to give a call to at some point. Yeah. I'm always pleasantly surprised when I show up in a new city. I think, oh, who knows how many businesses? And I open it up and I go, OK, OK, this is great. And it really grows. It really grows by people in their local community reaching out to those businesses. It's a lot of church business networks, a lot of almost like a church directory. It can be. I've seen some churches use it in that way. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. And it's great because it far be it for me to try to figure out the local coffee shops that are going to replace Starbucks for me in your local community. You probably know those businesses better than I. So it really is this grassroots movement. It's people in their local community reaching out to those businesses. There's no cost to be a part of the app. There's no cost to use it as a consumer or a business. So really, our whole goal is that you would vote with your dollars and go find those local businesses and support them. So you said you started out in California, correct? Oh, yes.

And then wanting to support better values, just not knowing where to go. Okay, I get what Nike stands for. I get what Starbucks stands for, but where do I find those alternatives, right? So that was already in his head. I want to say it was 2014. He was driving by a Chick-fil-A, wasn't breakfast, wasn't lunch, but saw a line out the door for Chick-fil-A and was going, why is there so much support in this random hour for Chick-fil-A? Looks it up. It was National Boycott Chick-fil-A Day. And he realized, wow, people come out and support when they see their values stood up for. And he even said, I believe he had a friend that supported the LGBT community, but whatever it was that Chick-fil-A was, I think it was like the marriage between a man and a woman. And his friend even said, that's okay. I'm going to go support them and buy a chicken sandwich because they have a great chicken sandwich and this is America, and that's all right that they believe in marriage between a man and a woman. That's their right in America. You know, so just knowing that a business is going to get support in America for standing up to these more traditional American values that our country was founded on. That being in the background, well then COVID hits, and it's in our face, right? So this needed to be disrupted, especially in Southern California. There were so many small businesses that were really, I mean, their rights were getting stripped away from them. Their doors were getting chained up. Police officers are coming by and taking their chairs if they're even open. And they're just saying, I need to feed my family. I'm not saying you have to come in here. You can come in here with or without a mask or your freedom of choice, but I need to support my family. So it was so much in our face. It was like, we just need to start this. And praise the Lord. It's definitely all him. It was amazing timing and we just started building. So I think it was April 2021, had the first line of code wrote, and by October of that year, had this MVP product. And then January started a nationwide expansion from there. And where'd you jump from California? I mean, was there specific states that sort of adopted this soon after? Did you find that... Yeah, your state. My state. Yeah, yeah. You know, what's funny is you would almost think, or most people think, oh, it's going to thrive in a very conservative, Christian area. But honestly, I truly believe it's some of the places that were hit the hardest during COVID and had these lockdowns and these, their freedoms removed, they really needed an alternative. And so those were, there was a mama bear in Chicago who reached out to us and said, I got to have this app here. I have a list of businesses that don't discriminate. You know, I don't want to be supporting these larger corporations. Give me an alternative. So we uploaded the zip codes and started from there and pretty much found those people in most major cities and they took it from there and built it. Any insight into, and this is kind of one more general question, I suppose, beyond Public Square, but you're kind of in the ether here. Any idea why it's taken such a turn? Like why corporations have taken this turn toward, like I said, not just selling products, but trying to sell ideologies. I mean, what is it about the, like the, you know, why is it that they've taken it on themselves to go out there and try to erode some of these values or even address these issues? It just seems like a horrible business strategy. Oh yeah. If I cut out for a little bit, so I might've missed part of that, but a great example, and I think this is what you're talking about. The seven major diaper brands in America verbally or financially support abortion. Is this what you're saying? Like why would you be doing something like this? Well, how deep do you want to go into this issue? Let's go deep. Yeah, we might as well. We got time. Yeah, let's go. Let's go. I personally think a lot of it starts from this DEI, CEI, which is a lesser known part of ESG, which is environment, social, and corporate governance. Most people know DEI, this is diversity, equity, and inclusion. But I think what a lot of people don't realize is it's, that is, in my opinion, what is pushing these big brands to endorse this nonsense. Does it make any sense for a diaper company to be supporting abortion? No, I mean, like ethically, what I believe, absolutely not. But let's take my morals and ethics out of it. That actually is just not a great financial decision. But for them, if you're following the money and where they're going, even, let's back up, that CEI, the corporate equality index, that is overseen by the human rights campaign. They are the largest LGBTQ plus lobbying group. So if that kind of explains a little bit about it, as a result, these CEOs, they're more concerned with pleasing the BlackRocks and the Vanguards of the world than they are pleasing their shareholders. So you're going to see that in Nike, in the Anheuser-Busch, if you knew that whole debacle. That is why they're doing that. It's not about the customer. They're not caring about the customer's concern. Why not take all that money and build a better product? Make it more organic. Make it more natural, right? But no, this is more about a credit score that they're worried about. And I want to say it's the top 15 of the 20 Fortune-ranked companies. They received a 100% rating last year, according to these human rights campaigns. So that just shows you, this is why they're doing it. Is it like a bully pulpit, though? Or is there money tied to that, being ranked in that? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yes, it is tied to banks and getting funding and how you're ranked. And so this is why we think it's important to go support those local businesses that are not doing this nonsense. You're actually going to get better customer service. They're the ones that answer the phones with somebody you can understand their products if they're trying to make them in America, if they can. You know, you're supporting a sweet family that probably shares similar values to you, you know, and is kind of staying out of the nonsense of the DEI and the CEI and all that fun, all those fun letters. That's a really interesting, I had never heard of that before. I mean, I've heard of CEI before, but I didn't understand how it was all sort of tied together like that. I mean, I came out of higher education. And so oftentimes what we dealt with was something kind of similar. We'd have these specialty accreditors who weren't Christian or anything like that, and they would gain a monopoly over, let's say, state certification. And so you couldn't get state certified in whatever field it was unless you had this accreditation. But then the accreditation would push colleges, even religious colleges, to adhere to their norms as opposed to just helping them adhere to their own norms and making sure that they provided the sort of education that they promised to provide. And then all of a sudden you have, you know, problems between schools and the accreditor and some schools are going to bend to that, you know, because they want to graduate students. They're worried about enrollment or what have you. Other schools are not. But the reality was it's almost this weird monopoly that sits behind the scenes. It's not a business monopoly. It's sort of a purse strings monopoly or an accredited accrediting monopoly of some sort. It's very strange. Follow the money. It seems like the majority of the times there is a point, unfortunately, where a lot of people, corporations, schools, whatever it might be, where you shift your values for a certain amount of money. This happened actually in my kid's school during COVID. And it was very clear. I knew the values the principal of the school started the school with. She actually homeschooled her kids. Her kids were not vaccinated, but it got to a point where she chose the money over her values. And it's really unfortunate. We are definitely not in that camp. We've had been enticed by it. It actually is mind blowing. The people that approach us that think that, you know, money can buy us something out. And it's no, we are going to be pro-life, period. There's no compromising. But when things like that happen, you realize, oh, this must happen behind the scenes for a lot of businesses and a lot of corporations. Unfortunately, people have their point of like, well, I mean, but we need to stay afloat or, well, you know, and that's where we really sat back and said, we have to trust God because we're not going to take any money to us. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-

lying to you that don't actually match up with values and try to sort of game your system? Like how does that play itself out? You know, yeah, that's a, that's a great question. We actually have a crew of people in-house that vet and verify each business when they come on. So to the best of our abilities, we can scan sites and see their social and look through their documents and know that these businesses really are values aligned and they're not donating antithetical to our Judeo-Christian values and values that we support. But we have not had too many of those. Honestly, I feel like those larger companies, that would be them jumping on board with us, which are probably the deplorables in their mind, right? Like the things that we're standing for and what we're doing. I don't know if they want to be associated. We've had a few cases where maybe a CMO or someone is standing in the way of an owner and not like allowing it or, but what's great is I've had a few, this is more towards in the beginning, but I have had a few conversations where I get on the phone with a business owner and she goes, okay, I agree with, you know, four of your five values, but this whole pro-life thing. And it led to in our conversation where I just got to explain, have you heard of Planned Parenthood? Do you know who Margaret Sanger is? Do you know? And just even to be able to connect with a business owner who may disagree with me in certain stances, but just to open up their minds to think a little differently of why they're supporting what they are or why we are not supporting in certain companies and certain values. So I appreciate when there's that friction and someone's willing to tell us, you know, this company wants to be on. How come I can't be on? I'm happy to explain to you DEI and the fact that you are doing this in your company. And sometimes they go, I didn't even know. Yes, that's go, you know, that was probably a different employee that set this up and you didn't even realize this was a part of your company. So if we can actually help better a company or help equip them, educate them. Yes. And amen. Happy to. What are, I mean, they're on the website, but just for the sake of the podcast audience, what are the values you've mentioned pro-life, but there are several there that are kind of interesting. And I think it'd be worth talking through. Yeah, sure. The first value we're united in our commitment to freedom and truth. And that's what makes us American. So we absolutely support America. I'm grateful to live here. Love this country. We will always protect number two, always protect the family unit and celebrate the sanctity of every life. We absolutely love life here. We believe, number three, in the small businesses and the communities that support them, that they are the backbone of our economy. And that's something that has been, I just don't feel like we can understate, especially right now with these small businesses. If you saw the statistics of how many businesses are about to close down or in danger of closing down these, and these are, they're so amazing. I wish I had hours to tell you the stories of these small businesses and their testimonies and who they donate to. And they just have the most beautiful hearts. So that's one of my favorites too. But fourth, we believe in the greatness of this nation and we'll always fight to defend it. And number five, our constitution is non-negotiable. Government is not the source of our rights and so it cannot take them away, which was also a big one during the COVID season. Yeah, yeah. So how do you come up with those? I mean, some of them make good intuitive sense. You know, you're thinking about charitable donations for, let's say, Planned Parenthood or, you know, pro-abortion sort of areas. How do you gauge some of those other ones as businesses come in? You know, freedom and truth, for instance. What does that look like for you guys to sort of put people against that value? Yeah, when a business comes on, they will go through a little vetting process. They will check off that they respect our core values and that they do not donate antithetical to those values. So we have companies fairly often that jump on public square and they say, I just sell my ice cream. Is that okay? That's it. I'm not taking anything. And we say, that's fantastic. Sell your ice cream. Support your family. Be a great ice cream company in your neighborhood and your community. We are absolutely okay with that. We're not asking the businesses to be donating to a pregnancy resource center, but our consumers, our customers want to know that they are not donating antithetical to that. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. Yeah, so it's not, they don't have to be proactive in supporting. They just have to be not actively fighting that. But I can tell you, we have so many veteran-owned companies on there. It's, yeah, a lot of the majority of them I'd say are Christian-owned businesses. It's okay if you're not. Our company outside, I would say internally, a lot of us are solid Christians, but externally, the company is not. It's just values-based. I personally believe when people understand freedom, they will eventually know who the author of freedom is and they will come to that reality. And we've been praying that from the very beginning of public square, but come on in if you agree with these values. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the small business piece, because I think it's something that, I mean, I don't fully grasp. I've never, I don't come from a family who was particularly entrepreneurial, right? And so, yeah, I've never really delved into the small business aspect. Grew up in sort of more rural areas. So you had family farms. I kind of get family farms, which are kind of quasi-small businesses, but that's not really the kind of small business you're talking about. So I don't think. How do small businesses even thrive at this point? It just feels like there's such a heavy lift when you look at the technological requirements that it takes to compete. And I would think the visibility that's required. I mean, I heard somebody say, you know, everybody's got the right to free speech, but what they don't have is the right to have that speech sort of amplified. In other words, not everybody gets the megaphone that the big box stores might or, you know, some of those things. And so, how should we be thinking about small businesses from a consumer and a Christian perspective, maybe? Good question. And is this because you were trying to plug our summit that's coming up in October? It's not, but I didn't even know about the summit in October. So if I stumbled into something, that's awesome. Yeah, we are. We're hosting. When you were saying this, I'm like, that is a great thing to let people know that we're hosting a small business summit in October in Orlando, Florida, because this is probably one of the biggest needs of these small businesses. Like I mentioned, they're great at selling their ice cream or, you know, whatever it might be, but to navigate, they're not just navigating a normal business in America. Unfortunately, it shifted, right? So if you're a part of this parallel economy, if you're a part of supporting more of the traditional American values, unfortunately, there's the cancel culture. There's the pushback. There's the big tech that you're fighting. We have multiple companies that have been canceled by larger corporations because they were, you know, painting an American flag with a particular president on it. They were okay when it was a rainbow flag, you know, but not a particular president. And these larger corporations just come down with their heavy hand and say, nope, sorry, we're not, we're going to close your account. We're not going to give you your money. So to your point, these businesses do need a lot of help. How do you navigate that? We are trying to be that outlet for them, right? To support these businesses. It's been really fun to see these stories after story. Now, every business is different, you know, any and every entity. So the small farm, we have a whole community of farms actually that are on there. Yeah. You know, you can go get local produce and eggs and that kind of stuff, which is great. All of this is helping build this parallel economy. But as far as their voice, we have story after story. There's one radio show I go on and all I do is share testimonies. And it is so sweet. One business came on one week of being on public square. They said they sold more of their swim shorts than they did the entire year before. Another company said that's cool. 95% of their traffic now is coming from public square. And they're like, these customers are amazing. They get it. They appreciate our notes that we put in there. You know, they're patient with the customer. I mean, they're just, it's, it's a really cool network to see build. So we really are trying to amplify the small businesses there. It grew to about 80,000 businesses really fast. So that's a lot of businesses to share, but we will go onto our social media accounts. We'll pull up stories and share these different companies. And it is fun to watch them grow. And so not just survive in this economy, but we're really trying to help them thrive. And so that's what we're going to be doing and educating people on all sorts of, all sorts of marketing, you know, a ton of different things, things that they can do in their local community. Mindset. Mindset matters. You know, I think as a company, we've, there's so much that we've really

students to like four, and you just couldn't sustain the model with four students, and it feels like that's sort of what's happening with more local businesses, or it seems like it could happen with small local businesses, that as things go online and the convenience becomes the priority for consumers, now going to your local store is far less important. It's out of your way. It's inconvenient. Whatever it might be, it's just as easy for me to have groceries delivered as to go out and get them, or whatever happens. And so I'm wondering, you know, when you build this app, obviously you're intending it to be sort of a national app, right? You've got the location finder, so I could find folks on the app near me. How do you help them, I suppose, develop that local flavor, that local audience? Is there a way that I can sort of on the app or on the website whittle it down so I'm looking at my local companies as opposed to everybody? Does that make sense? Yeah, I think so. So we're, gosh, I had no idea how expensive it is to build technology to do this stuff. Like, oh my gosh, I'm like the coupon mom shopper, you know, I'm really thrifty. So holy moly, that was interesting to navigate and learn. But when we started building this, it was really just, it was a directory. So we started as a directory of these businesses getting on there. Then what we realized is that conviction over convenience that you were talking about, right? 10% might do that. They're willing to drive an extra six miles to go support somewhere else outside of a drive-through and Starbucks. Not everyone is, right? A lot of people shut down their Amazon Prime just to make it more difficult and said, I'm going to try to support these businesses. We have a lot of churches actually do that. Look at the amount of money they're spending on Amazon and said, man, I would much rather spend this with the businesses on Public Square. Let us know when you have all these different types of products, toilet paper, you know, basics. Um, but, so we really needed to shift a lot of the engineers into supporting that e-commerce style a little bit and bring that to fruition for the majority of people who are used to shopping online, right? So now we are actually in this tension of where we're building that at the same time, supporting local for so many people actually is important. They really like getting to go to those local shops and knowing that it's a family that's from their church or in their community or is, you know, voting the same way that they're voting. And so we have a way to go, I think on the map portion, like we're still chugging away at it, but it was, it was okay. Let's shift a little bit, help build this e-commerce style, do, do the basics, our first round of that, and then see how we can continue to support these small businesses in their local community. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide, or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. So it's something that we're still, you know, you can go onto the map feature. You can, I think there's a different little buttons where you can pick like coffee and tea, and it'll show you if there is a coffee and tea place or retail, you know, auto services in your area. But we had recently more so been focusing on the e-commerce. So that's it. Yeah, it's a great problem to have. I mean, don't get me wrong. I think it's a, it's, but it's just one of those where, you know, and I do a lot, I still do a lot of consulting in the higher ed space and everything's moving online. You know, brick and mortar seminaries are getting harder and harder to sustain. And, uh, it's in one way, very disappointing. It's understandable to, you know, you can see why it would move that direction, but it's also disappointing just as somebody who I never took an online class through all my theological training. And so I'm like, Oh, you know, I'm kind of watching you and sort of miss, you know, everything that's going on. And so, um, you know, I think we could apply that same thing to shopping and, you know, that kind of thing. I know you're not, oh, go ahead. Oh, I was going to say some of these small businesses, it has opened up a network for them of being able to grow their business and be online and provide e-commerce for even some of their products. You might be a local hairstylist, but you also have a certain product that you've created. It used to be just for the people that come into your store. You don't want to be on Amazon. A lot of these small business owners have told us, they go, Oh wow, we integrate with you guys. And it's, you know, it really doesn't cost anything to integrate. There's a small fee that our integration processor, you know, takes and they say, but when we integrated with Amazon, they take like 30, 40, almost 50% of our profit. We're not making anything. Well, awesome. Glad we're glad we're here to help you, you know, get on there. So if there is a local business, like a someone that has a service, but they also have a product. Now they can put that on public square. Hopefully they're getting support from the people that, you know, they want to get support from. They like that they're not being on Amazon. Great. Fantastic. You know, so it has been able to support some of those local small businesses a bit to launch them into a little more of the e-commerce style. Not all the businesses want to do that. And I actually think that's great too. There was a business in Las Vegas called Harlow. They've got the cutest stuff. They were just in their local community and then they decided to do e-commerce with us. And they said, we actually just want to go back to supporting our local, our local people. We don't want to have to deal with all the inventory and the influx. That's totally fine too. That's great. You know, at least they're getting support from their local community now. That's really cool. You know, I know you're not necessarily the tech person, right? I'm not either. So, um, so I'll ask this question, not knowing whether you'll be able to answer it, but I just interested in your perspective on it. You know, I've done a lot of research on artificial intelligence and the way it sort of has the potential to take human jobs away and some of those things. I think some of those fears are unfounded. Some of them are probably really well-founded. But I'm wondering if you have any insight into artificial intelligence and how that might affect some of these local businesses. Do you see it as even something that could make them less competitive simply because they won't have access to it in the way that bigger companies will? Or do you see it as something that is, you know, could be a potential mobilizer, you know, a mix of both? Any thoughts on that? Good question. I think it's actually just a matter of getting educated. I think it's important. Hopefully that's something that we can connect with these businesses on at our small business summit is let them know, you know, sometimes you, oh, tech, bad. It sure can be used for bad. So can money, right? But it can also be used for good. So, you know, I think even when we were at the politics in the pew, there was the Bible AI guy. I thought that was so cool. And I downloaded the app right away. I'm like, I want to learn about Bible AI. There is a business on public square that does virtual reality stuff. And I remember the first time I heard VR and I'm thinking, oh, that's weird. I don't want my kids online. Like, you know, connect with me face to face. Um, and then I heard this guy's story and what he does with this virtual reality, with this VR stuff, he actually ministers to people in prison and allows them to have dinner, Thanksgiving dinner, Christmas dinner with their family because they can put on these VR headsets. They can scan through. They can see their family. They actually feel connected. And he uses that as a ministry tool to minister to people in jails that normally wouldn't even have the opportunity. So it's like, come on, we can have these AI tools. We can have VR. Do there need to be healthy boundaries with it? Yes. I just recently found out about a social media company on public square called Tuvu. And it's a Christian social media app, unlike the big ones, you know, TikTok and Instagram and all those where it's really meant to trap you in and keep you going. And you see these ads that you might not want your kids to see or, um, it is definitely meant to navigate that in a healthy way. So I

Like the pendulum is going to swing. It has gone so just let me just say the word weird. It's just weird. Like my kids, I have a 12-year-old and a 15-year-old, and like they see it. They're like, this is bizarre. I think they turned on something the other day and there was an ad for TikTok and they looked at this and they were like, what in the world is that? Things have just gotten weird. And I don't think that's what the majority of people want. So I do feel like this shift is going to come back. They've been a part of the generation. They've seen kids that have had iPhones since they were little. My kids did not. We spent a lot of time outdoors without any Wi-Fi. And so they're a lot more social than some of the kids their age. When we're in a car driving, every kid, you know, sitting down doing this and my daughter's looking back and forth like, aren't you excited to go to the lake? And she looked at me like, mom, they're not even, you know. So I am hopeful that there's going to be this shift and it's really fun to be a part of this hopeful alternative, even just with Public Square and this parallel economy of creating these alternatives and hopefully in Jesus' name, seeing the pendulum swing back to use AI for good, use those things for good, but not let it consume you. Well, it's cool. We're kind of winding close to time. And so I had just a couple of more questions. But one, my wife was just at a thing for her. She works for a Catholic hospital and they have these formation events. And so they went out and they were looking at businesses that actually work with the poor in the St. Louis area. And one of them is really cool. I think I'm going to try to get them on the podcast, but he started a bakery and he employs homeless folks in the bakery. And then if they work for him for a certain amount of time, then they help him get housing and those kind of things. And it's just a cool little like ministry business. So if I were going to talk to him and say, hey, you should get on public square. Like this would be a great place for you to be. It would help you with your business. Like what are what's the steps to get him plugged in? Is it pretty easy? Is it like very simple, very simple. You can head to the publicsquare.com, whether you're a consumer or a business, whether you have a product, if you're an author, if it's your school, you want to get on your bank, you know, anything publicsquare.com. The top right you can click add your business. It's about a 10 minute process for them to add the basics of their business. Then it gets kicked to us to vet and verify it. And within, depending on how many businesses are signing up in a day, within 24, 48 hours, you should get an email back from us letting you know that the listing is live and click here if you want to edit this. And then, then you're a part of it. And even with somebody like that, connect me with them. I would love, like, that is such an awesome story. I cannot wait till the day where you can click into these profiles and a video pops up and it shares their stories because I'm telling you, they're all like this. The reason I personally shop at Yakima Apparel, the reason I get TaylorMade Organics, the reason I buy We Heart Nutrition, like I, I know their stories and I've heard them and it's so phenomenal. I'll spend the extra $5 for those vitamins or I'll drive the extra few miles, you know, because of the stories like that, they're supporting their local community. They're helping out these homeless people. That's incredible. I will go there. You know, if they were my, I would drive across town to go support them for sure. So that is exactly like the businesses that are on public square and it would be so fun to have them. Very cool. Well, I usually have my, I ask my guests one sort of parting question. Everybody gets the same one and I never prep them. So unless you've listened to the episodes, you won't know what it is. But here's the question. What do you think Christians should be thinking about today to be and make disciples more faithfully? Hmm. Are you okay if I use it through a lens of public square? Please. Yeah. Okay. Well, this might be something that you know, but the name public square, it came from the word ecclesia, right? So this is when Jesus was talking to Peter and he said, on this rock, I will build my ecclesia, which is the Greek translation for church. Yeah, church, but assembly or the town square, your public square, right? And so I really feel like as a believer and as a Christian for us to get out there into commerce, into society to create, to build, to innovate, and not just innovate, but do it with excellence. This is what the Lord's asked us to do, right? I mean, he loved people like with excellence beyond our capacity and Jesus' name will do the best that we can in our abilities. But I think that's very important for Christians to understand and to realize and to get out into our local public square and love people. And even the way we've done it, I've mentioned this a little bit earlier, but with public square, we're not outward facing, pushing a Christian agenda. But when you show people freedom, when you value life, when you show them that these values, I truly do believe that we're going to have companies that come into alignment with God and understand the true roots of freedom and where they've come from. And that's from our Savior. So yeah. Does that answer all that? Yeah, it does. And I'll just say, like, I can appreciate that you all aren't outward Christian. Again, my wife works for Catholic healthcare and they're Catholic in name, obviously, and everybody knows that, but they have these internal folks who do mission integration and they help new people, Catholic, non-Catholic, whatever. They help new people understand why this is happening. Why is it that Catholic healthcare is happening? What is it? And they don't necessarily shy away from Jesus, but they're not trying to convert people either. They're just sort of presenting, look, this is the heart behind everything that we're doing. This is why we care. This is why this is all going on. And this is how you fit. And it's just such an interesting dynamic to me, right? Somebody who's been mostly in traditional Christian organizations, right? To draw people in in this fairly winsome manner and just say, no, look, we're just trying to empower you to live a better life. We're trying to hold these values. There's a reason why we do that, but we're not asking you to agree necessarily with that reason, but here it is. You know, kind of that kind of vibe. I just, I think it's an important point to drive home. Not everything has to be explicit all the time. And so I can appreciate the way you guys have arranged yourselves like that. Yeah. And you would be even surprised. Thank you for saying that. The amount of people that disagree with certain values or let's say the pro-life one, the percentage of registered Democrats, for instance, that use public square, they might not themselves pretty sure most of them are not pro-life. Sure. But yes and amen. If they're willing to come and support a business that is, that is, you know, promoting great things in their local community and is supporting the homeless and helping them get homes and jobs, like, come on. Yes. Like I want the dollar shifted to the righteous businesses in America. So it is, it is really fun to get to be a part of, for sure. Listen, we've been supporting things that don't necessarily align with our values for a long time. It's only fair that they take their turn. So I know, I know, right, right. No, it's, it is good. It has given me a lot of hope seeing the way things are going and how fast it's been built, but we still have a long way to go. So we're going to keep going. Well, real quick, let's tell people how they can find public square. I mean, I think it's fairly straightforward, but on the app store, Android, Apple, I assume. I'm an Apple guy, so Apple app store, but also Android and then publicsquare.com. Am I correct about that? Yep. Yep. Those are the ways you can find it in the app store or to the website if that's how you prefer to shop or go support businesses or go add your own. Okay. And we'll have all that in the show notes. And so people out there, I just recommend I downloaded the app last night. I played around with it. I looked at the, the businesses in my local area. Super cool. I mean, there were some of them. I was like, Oh, I never would have guessed that was, you know, a place. And then there were a couple of businesses that I know of right now that I'm going to suggest that they hop onto it. And so yeah, they're Christian run businesses in, in the area. And I didn't see them on there. And so I was like, Oh, they should hop on. So very cool. This is how this goes. You know, when people like you that are willing to share, know those businesses and I hope and pray that it gives them a lot of support back and that it helps grow their business. We need that. Absolutely. Well, thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate all the work you all are doing. And this has been a great conversation, so I

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