Speaking with Unspoken: Talking Ministry and Music with Chad Mattson and Jon Lowry

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm excited to be here again with my co-host, Nate, and we've got some special guests. I'm going to let him intro them since he knows them pretty well. So, Nate, go ahead. Yeah, this is Nate, and the first year I worked for Kayla Radio, 2012, I think, or maybe 2013. It was one of the first tours I did. I met Unspoken. They were just starting out, and one of my favorite songs at the time, Who You Are, had just come out on the radio, and I was excited to see that they opened for Sanctus Real that night. And so I actually got to go and hang out and see them last night at opening for Sanctus Real again. And that was awesome just to kind of, you know, refresh that, but literally two of my favorite dudes in the industry, great guys, original members of the band Unspoken, Sean and John and Chad. Cool. Hello. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for being on. So, original members, talk through maybe a little bit of how the band got started. Like, how did you guys connect and get going on Unspoken? Well, John and I grew up together, but that's not how the band started. John's dad was my pastor, and so church for all these years, youth camps and whatnot, and him and I actually weren't really friends at all, just close to the same age. I was a public school rebel, and John was a homeschool goody two-shoes. But I grew up in church, got into drug addiction, was six days sober in three years. My whole life was strictly in the drug culture. And as kind of like a last resort, the crazy thing is, I usually don't go into all of this because some people can be offended, but maybe you guys can edit this. I don't know. I think you're fine here. But I had a landscape business with my brother where we mowed lawns and serviced those properties as well. And I had met a man who wanted us to come look at their house so we could work. So I went over there and kind of became friends with him. My parents were super hospitable, great people. We had different friends of ours, and I'm one of five siblings, four a biological, one adopted. And we always had people living with us. I was always drawn to kind of outcasts, sort of. Well, it turns out that this guy practiced the Hindu faith, lived an alternative lifestyle, and was a little bit of a whack job. And of course, I immediately kind of, you know, connected with the guy. I was like, you know, he was interesting to me and all of that. Anyway, I worked with him for years. Well, when I, he was an alcoholic that had gotten sober and he did missions trips for the Hindu church because he was a medical doctor, wealthy guy, got bored in his forties, decided to go be a doctor and then, you know, started doing these medical missions trips, I guess with the Hindu faith. Anyway, I would drive him to Boston from Bar Harbor, Maine to Boston to get flights and whatnot. And so we just had time to talk and whatever. And at the time, of course, I was an addict, but I was looking to get sober and turn my life over to Jesus. Like I'd gotten saved when I was young and I totally believed in Jesus and knew I needed him and knew I wanted him, but just didn't know how to kind of get out of the place I was at. So my brother got home from a church service at their church, at our church, and a missionary was there from the Dominican Republic. He gave me the business card and he said, man, I really think that you should call this missionary and do something crazy. And of course I was like, what am I going to do on a missions trip? You know, I'm a drug addict. And put the card on my bulletin board and it was like every day the card grew. And it's like the only thing I could see when I walked into the room, you know, and I was so drawn to this card. So I called this missionary and I just said, Hey, listen, can I come and hang out with you? And he basically was like, yeah, sure. You can come. So I planned on going to the Dominican Republic for two months and leaving on February 4th and coming back, whatever, February, March, March, April 4th or something. And never been out of the country, failed French in high school, was, you know, going to a Spanish speaking country. The problem was, is that I was in debt, in drug debt, and I did not have any money and it was, it was getting to be winter. And as landscapers in Maine, you ain't got a lot of work in the winter. And so this guy, this other alternative, the little bit of a whack job guy, was getting ready to leave his Maine and go somewhere else for the winter. And so he said, Hey, you want to grab dinner before I leave? Yeah, sure. No problem. So I was talking to him about this and he said, he offered, he said, I want to pay your plane ticket and give you $500 to go and give to the missionary in the Dominican Republic. So the Lord used somebody way outside the church. And so I got on a plane, February 4th, 2003. I went to the Dominican and for the first time in my life, I started to hang out with Jesus. You know, it wasn't church. It wasn't small groups. It wasn't Bible study. It was just, I just went and I started to read the Bible and pray and hang out with him. And I'm not, everything changed. Everything changed. And while I was there, I met a Dominican kid who played guitar and after a couple of months of being there, he came back to Maine with me and we started going to coffee houses and open mic nights and nursing homes in New York City subways and just preaching and playing. And you know, one thing led to another and we were invited to go here and invited to go there. So where John comes in, we're home for Christmas that first year. And, and we asked John, we knew John was in college studying music and we had a concert at a local church. And so I said, Hey, you want to come play keyboard with us? And so he did. It was great. And then he graduated that May and we offered him 30 bucks a week with a four-year degree to come on our team and travel. And that was 20 years ago. That's amazing, man. Yeah. It's good pay for a musician, by the way. I was gonna say it's, yeah, it's the normal joke, right? I get it all the time with theologians, you know, what's the, what's the difference between a theologian and a pizza? Pizza can feed a family of five. It's one of those. That's a great story, bro. I'm glad you're thinking more than 30 bucks a night now, John. That's great. 30 bucks a week, not a night. 30 bucks a week. And a cell phone. A lot of crazy things have happened to us as we, you know, we were poor for well over a decade, you know, way below the poverty line. I mean, there's a lot, but God has been so faithful to show up in just supernatural ways to the point where like when 2020 was coming, it literally didn't even phase us. It was like, well, we can't be worse off than we, than we were, you know? God's always been faithful to show up. And since then, you know, actually it was like since 2020 is when, like, our, we started making significantly more money than we were. So it's been, it's been pretty supernatural, but we met a guy, so it was $30 a week. We paid his cell phone bill and we lived in a millionaire's pool house. So for free. And they said, like, there's just been cool things that, like, have happened over the years, you know? And if, correct me if I'm wrong, but when I met you guys, you guys were, had been doing it for a while already and you both were doing construction full-time still too. Yeah. Like double dipping and kind of, you know, bi-vocational, if you want to say it that way. Oh, for sure. Yeah. We, we did that for 12 years at least. I mean, we've been playing a hundred shows a year since the beginning and, you know, just would landscape and carpentry and stone work and all of that whenever we could as to keep going and, you know, it's been, it's been a trip. That's awesome. So I get really offended when people say that we're in it for money or fame. And I'm like, you know what? Forget you, bro. You don't know nothing. Right. So you were both from Maine, right? Is that, that's where you both grew up? What was it like? Cause I mean, we, you know, I do some work up in the sort of Northeast and, you know, today it's kind of

It's difficult to be a pastor in a church in the Northeast. Did your dad find that? Did you guys find that sort of when you were up there in Maine? Yeah, definitely. My parents actually came from Oregon when I was like three years old, moved to Maine, and it was culture shock for them, you know, coming from, not that the West Coast is like the Bible Belt, where we are in Tennessee now is crazy, you know, it's everything. You know, McDonald's, they have the nativity painted on the windows down in it. But yeah, going to Maine, it's such a unchurched place. I can't remember what the statistics are, but it was one of the least churched states in the country, I believe. And New England is a whole different animal, that's for sure. Definitely compared to Oregon. Yeah, so I mean, Chad, when you were going back and kind of playing in these bars and, you know, coffee houses or wherever, like just getting started, is that in Maine too? Yeah. There's a pretty warm reception to the Christian music in that setting, or how was the time? Yeah, I would say so in some way, shape, or form. I mean, the thing is, we're personable, we love people, we know we're not going to beat, you know, beat people over the head with a Bible, they're going to get saved. It's like people are all in different spots, and we know that God is pursuing people and doesn't wish that anybody perish. So it's like he, you know, so we would just go talk to people, be with people, play music, give our testimony. And when you talk, you can't really argue with the fact that like, there's so much addiction, you know, that like, even just being sober is something that everybody is just happy for you. You know, but at the same time, you know, I mean, we've definitely had our run-ins, but, you know, gospel is offensive. I mean, you know, we weren't asked back some places, for sure, but. Just find it interesting. Like I said, we've done, I've been able to work with a lot of pastors up in the Northeast, and you know, the stories that they tell are very different than, I'm actually in Illinois. And so as sort of different as Illinois is, it's still not quite as hostile and there's just a very different culture in the Northeast than there is even in where I'm at in the Midwest. And so there's a, yeah, I just kind of wondered what your experience was there. So that's, that's interesting. It's a, it's an interesting place to start out. Whatever happened to the, the Hindu guy? Did you reconnect with him after you came back? Of course. I would, we continued to landscape. And so we continued to do some different stuff, but I, one of the greatest, I would call him like late at night knowing that he wasn't going to be home. Like he would have been at some other property that he owned or whatever and just thank him. Like, yo, it's been a year, Greg. And I just want to thank you for helping me go to the Dominican Republic, bro. You know, it was life changing for me. And then Greg, Hey, I got married and I have a kid, you know, and like years later, Greg, I, I literally, my songs are on the radio hearing everybody. And I talked to him one last time. I didn't really talk to him much, but I would leave him these voice messages from time to time. And, but I talked to him maybe a year or two, saw him in town. And before he died, he passed away. And he said, dude, those voice messages were some of the, they were the kindest, most wonderful words that anyone had ever spoken to me. So just cool that, you know, the, you know, who knows what God's doing, but what God was doing, but I thought it was just rad that the wealth of the wicked, bro, you know, you can't stop God from doing what God wants to do. Yeah. So I just, I'm thankful. I love that. I love how God can use anybody, you know, and that, that if you would have told this story or like tried to put the perfect story together, it wouldn't have been that guy. It would have been someone at your church or someone on a local mission or something. Like, I just love how God doesn't work or operate the way that we do in our own minds sometimes. It's all. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed with inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty? More families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Actually, most times, if we can think of a way that he could do something, it's usually not that way. That's what I've learned. That is true. Very true. So what's coming up for you guys now? I know you've got some new music coming out. You've got a new song I got to hear last night that's coming out at the end of April, I think. Yeah, I mean, we're just plugging away. I mean, when the world shut down a few years ago, we loved being home. And it was like, wow, wait, you know, we hadn't been home like a substantial amount of time ever. And so we are doing more of that, which is wonderful. I mean, my kids are a little older now and John's still got young kids, so it's important to be around. And we're all kind of involved in different things. And it's been actually really neat because when you do one thing your whole life, it's very hard to stay encouraged when things don't move quickly, you know, and in fact, you know, move more like at a snail's pace. And it's very one dimensional. And I think it's really good in some ways because it gives you your laser focused. But as we started kind of putting our hands to some other things and saw those things win, it made the snail's pace at which our career has been built a little less painful because, you know, hey, God's still using it. God's doing doing things over here. And we just read something from Oswald Chambers last night in our tour devotional about not seeing the blessings of God just in encouragement and momentum and whatever. Like that's that's like baby faith and God gives us moments where we we obviously, he confirms and all that, you know, faith and this this walk of faith is about perseverance and perseverance is just pushing through despite resistance. So we've learned a lot of that, but it's just been a real gift to be able to be home working on the music still with a, you know, a focus, but then also putting our hands to the local church and and some of those things. And it's been pretty rad. That's awesome. Talk a little bit about, if you don't mind, Soldiers for Faith. You guys are doing a partnership with them and you're leading a Bible study with them. And that's a free resource that anyone can take advantage of. I mean, I have a buddy who we met at a gig randomly a bunch of years ago and he's a successful businessman. But he has this beautiful passion for God's word. And when his sons were leaving the house, he didn't feel like he was done being their dad. So he he said, Hey, would you mind, you know, like getting on a Bible study with me, you and your friends or whatever, you know, on Saturday mornings or whatever. And so they kind of continue when the sons moved out. The Bible study started over the phone and that's kind of how it started over the phone. They'd all just dial in, study the word together, bring friends in and whatnot. And it's kind of turned into, you know, like, I think we have, I don't know how many Bible studies or how many, we probably have over a thousand people that attend. Like I, I lead a Bible study and on Wednesday and we've got someone calling in from the Philippines, someone in, in Alaska and then all over the country too. And it's just a way for us. We've struggled with the idea, like that our call in ministry is to make disciples. And so the way that we have kind of made that work with touring, because we're not really making disciples, nor are we at church making disciples there. Like we're just a traveling church together of men that love God and go out, but we're throwing seeds. And so it's a more of that evangelistic thing. But, but throwing seeds all these years, this soldiers for faith thing has been wonderful because it's really allowed us to be a part of that discipleship piece. And it's just so important and it's been awesome. I mean, I go and read my Bible all the time, but this causes me to get prepared to teach through kind of expository teaching verse by verse. And like, oh my gosh, okay, I'm on husbands and wives again in the epistles. Like, what do I, you know, so it kind of gives you some ways to dig.

and really, you know, learn new stuff and whatnot. So it's pretty good for a couple of musicians, you know? That's awesome. So you both teach? I do now. I'm trying to convince him to get in there, too. I want all the guys to do it. And we need more teachers, but people don't really get it. They think it's weird. Like, it's not Zoom. You don't have to be dressed. You don't have to, you just dial in. And so, really, this is pretty cool because it gives anybody an excuse of why they can't be in studying the Bible. Yeah. That throw out the window. because there's a study from 7:30 to 8:30 or 7 to 8 or whatever on your way to work. Like, dial in. Get involved. And so it's really been pretty special. Like, I've loved being a part of it. I've also loved not leading something. I'm just, you know, a dude in the ministry, you know? So it's been great to be led because we've had to kind of lead ourselves here all these years. So that's been kind of fun as well. That's really cool. I hadn't ever thought of the, just calling in because I run something similar with a group of guys out in Virginia, actually. And so we do it every Wednesday morning on Zoom. And they, like, whether they're traveling or whatever they're doing, they pull in and we do, we're studying through Romans right now. Um, we did Matthew and now we're doing Romans. So we just kind of started it, but it's about 20 guys. Um, and we do it on Zoom, but I love the idea of a call-in, like just that much more flexibility for folks where they can just kind of call in and listen and have it be live as opposed to doing it like pre-recorded podcast or something like that. You could actually, do they interact? Well, yeah, that's the thing that's cool about it. Like we do a round table at the end. So we do a roll call in the beginning, a round table at the end, which is if you don't ask people what they got out of it or if they have any thoughts, you know, don't say anything. So we literally go around to every person and they can pass or they cannot. And then it's not a sermon that, you know, so you've got all the reference verses go out to the people. Hey, Elaine, can you read Romans 3:23? Hey. And so when you get to that space, go ahead, Elaine, and then she'll read the verse. And so it's it's trying to be interactive. And the cool thing is, is that we had the idea to, like, gather a lot of, I had the idea to gather a bunch of our musician friends to do a Bible study locally. And, uh, most of the musicians have fallen off due to schedule and whatnot, although it was, it was pretty good for a year, but we've got probably 50 plus guys showing up every Wednesday, uh, here in Nashville, um, and, um, you know, studying the word. It keeps growing. It's been three years. Like, and then we've started a women's study and there's a, a kids' study, you know, at our house. So we've been doing in-person too. And of course, we encourage people be involved with people in your own community. That's great. But it's crazy because when I ask people at our shows talking about the Bible studies and literally, we don't want anything from anybody. Like, we don't ever ask for money. We nothing like that. Um, but you know, I'll ask people at the shows, like, how many people here are in a Bible study? And it's like 10%. You know, so that's why I want people to dig in, you know, it's like, you can be fed by your pastor once a week, but you know, like, as we mature in the Lord, we got to start feeding ourselves and, and, uh, you know, so just encouraging people, the word of God changed our lives, you know, and it's continuing to change our life. And that's what we, it's not about an event or a Sunday morning service or whatever. It's so much more than that. Um, so that's kind of what, that's why I'm passionate about it. And I mean, it's hard to find somebody who's passionate about somebody else's thing. You know, it's got to be legit. You know what I mean? Especially like somebody like me, that's like a leader and have my own thing. Um, but um, yeah, it's been, it's been really, really pretty special. My favorite part of it is, um, that you open it up at every show. I've seen you, I think, two times since COVID, like, and you guys have done it both times, but I'm sure you've been doing it longer than even the last year or so, two years. But literally, their songs change. And if anyone has not ever seen them, look their music up. Go see them on the tour they're on now if they're coming to a city near you. But they literally make it about the individual. And so say somebody, their songs are all directed towards that, like to make thought-provoking, like to look inside and like to examine their life and each of them are talking between the songs. So if God starts dealing with someone in their heart, right in the middle of the service, this QR code comes up and there's a video for it. And then if they're on the fence or if they've never done a Bible study, they're probably going to be more likely to do that one because they could join yours. And it's like somebody they already like, somebody that they already are a fan of. And so I just think that's awesome. And honestly, I'm not seeing anybody else do that. I think it's super unique and goes against what artists do. Usually they kind of just wanna be like this, you know, on to the next thing like you were saying. Um, so I just think it's amazing, and I think everyone that's listening should definitely check it out. Uh, Soldiers for Faith and you guys can check it out on probably Unspoken's website too. I'm sure there's a link there. Well, we can put it in the show notes as well. Yeah, yeah, we'll get it all in the show notes so people can check it out. It's really cool. I like that a lot. I wish I came up with it, but I didn't. That's all good. Hey, it doesn't matter who came up with it, right? It's a great ministry. That's amazing. You guys talked, I mean, you talked a little bit about 2020, and I can imagine, you know, for artists, it was sort of a I don't know, a double-edged sword, right? Because normally you're out touring and doing stuff. And then all of a sudden you find yourself at home. So you've talked a little bit about how you spent your time, but I mean, what did that break really give you all? Like, what were you doing while you were doing it? Working in your churches, writing music, but yeah, talk a little bit about that. Yeah, I think being able to be involved with our local churches with our families was one of the hugest things for me because, you know, I could count on, you know, 10 fingers the times that I would get to go to church with my family each year because we're gone almost every weekend when we're touring, right? So actually being able to be involved and, you know, see what my kids are studying in Sunday school and that type of thing was was huge for me. And do you, yeah, I mean, rooting you in, like, um, you know, now do you feel like you have, I'm assuming you feel like you have a better home base at your church, even as you go out? Right, yeah, it kind of, and I don't connect with people easily. Um, I'm a little bit more introverted, so having like that time to, you know, it's hard to, for someone like me to connect in, you know, if I'm there once a month. Right. So to be able to be there week by week and, you know, connect with people face to face was huge for me. That's awesome for your kids and your wife too. I can only imagine they probably love it every minute of it. That's awesome. I mean, we've changed our whole tour schedule around, like, we do two sets of, like, the fall and the spring, um, where we're gone every weekend for, you know, six weeks or whatever it might be. And, and now, like, this past year, um, we're doing like one four-day weekend a month, um, opposed to what happens is you, you know, you might get four offers, one on each weekend, and then it just shoots your whole entire weekend. And so we've really tried to be pointed about going out, like, more like once a month, sometimes twice a month, but once a month. Um, and then we get back and we can, you know, keep being a part. It's not even that we're really involved in, like, I'm not, like, super involved in my church. Um, I'm super involved because my gift is gathering people. So, you know, we ran a home group for four years that was like 60 people, like, we, it could have been 100, it could have been. But we have that gift and the hospitality and, and stuff like that. Not everybody has that. So I'm, I'm just, I'm not worried so much about where I go to church and getting plugged in there, although that's going to happen naturally. Um, but I am super interested in gathering believers, you know,

Yeah, I can't remember what I was gonna ask. Nate, you wanna kick in there? Yeah, I was gonna say, you touched on it a little bit, Chad, but, and for you as well, John, like, it's taxing. People think that, I think people think that it's all glitz and glamor, and it's like, you know, this lifestyle that's like just all fun, but like, it's a grind, and it's sacrifice for you guys each and every day. I was reminded of that last night when we were trying to find food, you know, after the show's done, everything's done, wrapping up, it's late. And I mean, they don't have normal lives, and then neither do their wives, neither do their families. Everybody has to sacrifice. Everybody has to put in for it. So I just wanted to give that perspective. You guys are very humble and you're not saying it in entirety, but it's a sacrifice. I know it is, and I appreciate you guys and really my hats off to you guys for doing it for 20 years. A lot of people give up and quit, you know, and during COVID, a lot of people did, and you guys pressed through. And I know God is using you guys in an awesome way, using your music each and every day. And I think that's not possible without that sacrifice. So I just commend both of you, all of you guys, everybody in the band. I mean, what do you expect us to go get a job and work 40 hours a week? I mean, you know, we're used to working 24 hours in a day and then taking three days off, but listen, it is very difficult. It has been super tough, like super tough. But guess where God always meets us? He always meets us in the things that are difficult and where we don't have the strength to do it in our weakness. His strength is made perfect. And there's so much, but at the same time, our life is awesome. Like, especially now with like, since 2020, we switched things up, things that, even though our career, you know, at times is like, feels like it's going nowhere. We get to do what we love to do, you know, with people we love to do it for the King of Kings. You know, I mean, it's, it's crazy, you know, we love it, but it doesn't come without a massive cost for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Is there a story that comes to mind, like of God just totally invading somebody's lives at one of your shows or maybe reaching out to you guys afterwards through one of your songs, through your ministry, anybody that any, that come to mind that I don't want to put you on the spot too much, but I know I've heard several over the years. Just going to see if one comes to mind of either one of you guys. Uh, we wrote this song, our whole third record or second and third record was very much pointed towards, you know, our lives and what things are going on and what we're finding in the scriptures and what we're dealing with in life. And for me, um, we were going through some like massive debilitating anxiety and things from our childhood and like some really crazy stuff, like re and really feeling hopeless. Um, that would God ever show up on our behalf? Would he ever hear us? And we've done everything we can. Um, but we wrote this song, uh, called miracle that ended up going out to the radio. We weren't thinking it was going to, but it did. And I remember we were in Oklahoma or something like that. And a lady came and she had driven three hours to see us pray, uh, play. And, uh, she said, you know, when I heard your song, I hated it because I've prayed my whole life for X, Y, or Z. And, you know, God never shows up. Um, but for whatever reason, as I kept hearing that song, God kept like stirring me to believe him for, um, things, you know? Um, and something had happened and she, she had an answer to prayer that was miraculous in somehow, way, shape or form. And so she had to drive to us to say, man, I would have never gotten to this place if you hadn't stirred me to believe for God for, for a supernatural things, you know? And we serve a supernatural God. I mean, I think there's, I mean, of course you get the, I can't think of, um, any of the specifics, but I mean, we've had the, we were going to commit suicide thing and, and whatever. But it's, it's just, it's even just reminding people that they're not alone and that even though it feels hopeless, doesn't mean it actually is. And continue to hold to his word because his word is true. You know? And I mean, just things like that. I'm sure. Do you have anything that comes to mind? Any story? I mean, uh, there were even last night, there was a lady in the meet and greet who was there. And she said that her son, um, had been for what, the last 17 years just struggling with addiction and was actually, he had gone to prison and was in prison and started listening to Christian radio and that through Christian radio, he actually found Christ and called his mom and said, mom, I've finally like, and so he was a year clean. I think that last night she came and was just saying thank you for, for what you guys do because, you know, that's going into places where, you know, nobody can get into all the time, you know, 24 hours a day, that Christian radio and those songs are going out there. Yeah. Radio ministry is huge. It never sleeps. I remember one other one that we were in ocean city, New Jersey, and there was this sketchy guy, um, and he, he was, he was addicted to opioids, crazy life. And he's kind of, I've stayed in contact with him and he had like four or five years of just doing great. And he's kind of just kind of gone like this, you know? Um, but, uh, but he was high in the show and he had said like, you know, in this particular part, like he just felt this sensation, this burning inside of him and kind of surrendered to God was sober immediately and stayed sober for like five years. Um, and of course there's underlying things. There's things that we have to, you know, Do the work, you know, therapy stuff and things that there's work to be done. Um, but, um, but he's doing well right now. He just got out of teen challenge, uh, rehab and uh some different things. But um I just, I mean, there was a long stretch there and that was a supernatural kind of encounter. I mean, I'm saying supernatural a lot. We did grow up charismatic, but we're, you know, we're more like Calvary Chapel, you know? Um, and, uh, you know, but we just know God does crazy things, you know, and he does amazing things. Um, so, um, yeah, I mean, I know there's more, but um. Anytime somebody even feels God in a song that we wrote, man, that is the, that is what we are hoping, you know, that people would just experience God in some way through the music. That's good. I know I put you on the spot there. Sorry about that. And I probably so many to even like, you know, look back on and reflect on because you've told me many over the years and it's easy to, to forget about them. But I'm just encouraged every single time I see you guys, not just because you're my friends, but you guys are really doing it for the right reasons. And I know God is using you guys in an awesome way and I just couldn't be more proud of you guys. So for real. Thank you. Thanks. I got, I got one last question and I won't forget at this time. Um, if, um, I've talked to other musicians on the podcast and one of the questions I'm always kind of curious about, so I, I write, but I, I don't have a lick of music talent like you wouldn't want me to sing or even really play a kazoo or anything like that, right? Like I have no idea when it comes to music. Um, but I enjoy writing. And so when you, when you sit down to write a book, right, you usually sort of do an outline and there's chapter by chapter. You're trying to figure out how one chapter reinforce another and you know, sort of how the whole thing coheres. And so I've always just been interested to talk to other folks who are creating things. How do you go about that when you're putting a new album together, when you're putting new songs together, do you, do you shoot for a flow across your whole album? Or do you really just do a song to song to song to song? Like, um, what's your strategy there? How does that, how does that creative process look for you all? I don't think we've ever gone into an album with like a concept of this is what we're going to write for. Um, but for each album, we'll write 80 to a hundred songs. Uh, so that, that's more how it worked for us. And then in, in those songs, sort of a theme will you will develop and then we'll kind of look at, okay, what is, what's the main theme theme? And then from there, you know, you kind of have to pick, well, we need this many up-tempo songs. We need this many mid-tempo, this many slow songs. Um, so you're kind of looking for the flow of, of tempo and

50 songs or so, there's probably 30 that are really worth something that didn't make it, and maybe another 30 that there's something there, but we have to do some significant digging. And then the rest of them are either just crap or, you know, they go to die, you know. Not everything we write is good, you know, unfortunately. But we always say at the end of a record that we hate writing songs, but we love to have written. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up, and many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide, or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. So that's, you know, but at the beginning of the record, we like writing songs. It's fun. But it's really just work, you know. We have a friend, an old-school writer, still writing hits today. When we first moved to town, we got the opportunity. He was kind of a mentor, but just talked about how you think that inspiration comes and that's when you work. But the inspiration is just 10% of the whole thing, you know. The inspiration comes and then 90% is the work, is the perspiration of, you know, bringing it out. So inspiration is always, I read this Bible verse, I had this lyric, you know, on my phone, I have a melody, and then you have to start working at it. And it's not fun all the time. It's fun sometimes, but it's work. And then to try to make these songs be biblically sound, you know, that's another thing is that, you know, we've sent several songs to our pastor friends being like, can you shoot holes in this? Because it feels good, but is it true? You know, so there's things like that too. It would be fun to like, at some point, do something like, you know, we just studied the Beatitudes, and so it's like, could we write a song on every Beatitude as a themed project? That might be kind of something neat, you know. So there are some things there, but through touring and writing and all the other things we have going on, there's like less time for creativity than you might think. You know, we have to schedule these things so that we can get away and work. Right. Do you find, because I always find it difficult too, like whenever I write something and then sort of shelve it, I sort of loathe going back to it. I always want to try new things. Exactly. Yeah, because I always have stuff like, I'm like, ah, that was like 10 minutes ago. I'm not interested in that anymore. I'd rather, you know, God's done something really interesting in my life and I want to discuss this now. It's hard for me to stay on a plan. And I mean, so when you're going back into the song graveyard, you know, or do you dread that or are you like, no, this is like mining for gold? If it's been long enough, it's fun because you are sort of like rediscovering things. But a lot of times if it's a song, like actually the song that you liked, Nate, from last night, we had, we've just like hated that song, at least the process of writing it, because we had a verse and our A&R guy at the label loved it. And he's like, that's your next single. And then we, we wrote like eight different choruses and verses and bridges and stuff trying to finish it. None of them worked. And we finally, like we kept bringing in people to help. So it's like, we, you know, we worked that song for the last eight months or something. So. I literally told my A&R person, like, I despise you because I, because you're making us work on this song and I hate this song. And I hate you. But the good thing is it's great to have people around you. And this always points back. It's so important to have people around you. And, you know, I think some that you're, you're speaking into, some that you're bringing along, some that are bringing you along and some that you're walking with together. And then of course the lost as well. But, um, but it's been really good. Uh, sometimes we would miss things if we didn't have people speaking into it and we dug and we dug and we literally were so sick of it. Um, and so frustrated. Um, but we landed on something that I think is going to be really special and mean something to people. So, um, we wouldn't have seen it, you know, we would have been like, wow, that's old. That's 10 minutes ago. Let's work on something else. Well, I think that song really inspired me last night, really encouraged me and I can't help, but think that it did many others that were there too. So that's incredible to me to know that sometimes people might get right to the edge of that process and then throw in the towel. Oh, let me move on to another one. I had this better idea over here, but God might need to use that. So that it's just really cool. Like it's delicate. And when you're explaining that process and I've heard this from other people, it's almost like labor pains. Like you have to go through all the different steps of the trimesters, you know, like in really trying to make something work and it's like you're, you're creating something that is living that God can use in people's lives. And I just think it's amazing. And the average person doesn't understand that process. So please, uh, know that you're appreciated for sharing that. That's awesome. I was thinking one thing I was thinking about when you were saying it, uh, shoot, what was it? Um, nope, forget it. Lost it. You're not the only one. It's contagious. It's contagious. James and passing it down. I'm usually the one that does that. I've never seen James do that actually. No, I mean, I, I think when I've talked to other musicians on the podcast or sometimes we'll do like kind of an after interview, I hear very similar things from them. And it's just amazing to me as someone who, like I said, has no context for music whatsoever, um, how many parallels there are with just other creative activities, the kind of stuff that I'm involved with. Cause you do, you end up, I mean, I've, I've, you know, you might hear this from writers, but it's like, yeah, just get everything down on the page and you'll edit it out later. And so, I mean, that's the equivalent of the hundred songs or, you know, 80 songs and then just getting rid of, you know, some of them. And so there, there is just a lot of time involved. And if you don't have the right mindset, it can feel like a huge waste. It's not a particularly efficient process. It's just a lot of sort of throwing the noodles up against the refrigerator and hoping one sticks every once in a while, you know what I mean? Um, and so I appreciate you all talking through that. I think it's really important. And, uh, I love that you have the, uh, sense about you to send those songs out to other people for some theological and biblical vetting. I, I'd never had, I've never heard anybody else do that. I'm sure people do, but right. I just appreciate that you are willing to send your songs out and go, Hey, we like these. They're catchy, but are they true? Well, it's like, it's like things that are questionable. Like when you're talking about the grace of God, you know, like, are we giving, is this song speaking to the fact, uh, of, you know, you can do whatever you want. Is that what people are going to get out of this? But God's gracious. So it's like, it's things like that that are like, Oh, how does this hit you? And we'll go back and we'll rewrite trying to, trying to make it happen. The other thing about being creative is that not very few of the ideas that we have, and I'm sure you feel the same way, are great. There's a lot, we have a lot of good songs, like really good songs, but great ideas and great songs are, are special, you know? And I wish we could come up with them all the time, but they, you know, they're, they're, you know, like a needle in a haystack. I mean, you're around all these good ideas and then once in a while you get a great one. So, I mean, we continue to ask God for them, you know, give us ideas, give us stuff, you know, like, obviously we can work and we're partnering with him on that, but, um, just knowing that we're dependent on God for good ideas, you know, great ideas too. Yeah. The fact that you're willing to work on one song for eight months, I think should tell everybody the fact that, you know,

Change? Does it go away or because I know you were probably just on cloud 1,000 when who you are first got on K-love. Well, John and I were in a truck in Maine landscaping when we first heard the song come on the radio. And so we pulled over and just, you know, we're thanking God and just saying, man, wow, this is crazy. I also remember hearing it with my wife in our kitchen and being like, I thought it would give me more, you know? And, you know, I think oftentimes we set goals and we have dreams, and God is so kind to not give us those things because he knows that that's not really what satisfies us. And then when we go after the things that God blesses us with and the blessings of God, you know, a lot of times we miss, you know, the fact that he is the satisfaction of our souls. So I feel like it's always exciting. It's always a blessing because of what radio and different platforms can do in people's lives. And like anytime we get the opportunity, you know, we are so thankful and we want that every time. We're disappointed when it doesn't happen, you know? But again, we know that God knows more about what we need and what we want. And, man, it's just a hard thing to surrender your life to say, however you want to use it, you know? We're here to serve his will. So these things are tough when you're working and you're trying to go after and try to build, you know, provide for the family so we can help our kids go to college or whatever the case may be, and we need our songs to do good. But time and time again, you know, God just blows our minds with the way he does things that we didn't expect. So either way, it's just, yeah, it's tough to kind of, you know, when our songs don't do well to know that God had something to do with it, you know, in some way. I mean, life happens and, you know, it's not just that. Yeah, but and just to know, hey, he's sovereign, he's good. He'll put us where he wants us to be. We'll do whatever we can, you know, all that we can to partner with him. But it kind of stinks when his plan isn't our plan, but we know his plan is better, you know? Right. I think one of my favorite verses, I almost, whenever I teach through the book of Genesis, I almost always start with this verse. It's actually Deuteronomy 30, and it's like 19 through 20. But it's this passage where, you know, God has laid out the laws before Israel and he tells them that they have the choice between life and death. And then he tells them to choose life. And he underscores this idea that by obeying his laws, they're recognizing that he is their life and the length of their days. And it's just one of those beautiful moments where you realize, like, oh, obedience is our strategy. It's how we tie in to the blessings that God wants us to have and the blessings that he knows we need as opposed to trying to figure it all out on our own and settling, really, for something that is far less than what God would have given us if we just followed him. And so just as I hear you talk about that, that verse comes to mind again. I love that passage. It's one of my favorites. So, I mean, that's how we've stayed doing this all these years. I mean, what three grown men with families stay through a decade of poverty being gone and poor is a double whammy, you know? It's already hard enough to be gone with your wife and then you're poor too and kids and all of that. And so I feel like it's just our act of obedience to say this is where we think that God wants us to be. And when God wants, you know, there were times where I didn't want God to take it away from me. And, you know, I don't think he was asking, but I was like, I didn't want, I wouldn't have let it go. And I think it's our, where we're at in life, it's like, sometimes it's easier to be like, are you sure you don't want us to start on some new endeavor? It's kind of like finishing those songs, you know? It's like starting something is easier than finishing. So we're happy to be here if God wants us to pivot. You know, we pray that we'll obedient to do that. But right now we're walking in obedience. So I appreciate what, because we've always said obedience is success. And if we can keep that in the front of our minds and we can weather poverty and weather things not going well or whatever it may be. So I really, I love that. I'm going to check that out when I get off here. Yeah, definitely. If I can encourage our listeners for one last thing. If you are a Christian and you're wanting to bring somebody to a show, I don't want to say something too edgy here, but I'm going to say it anyway. Not every Christian band is an experience like coming and seeing you guys. It's not going to be like you know that they're going to get the word, you know that they're going to get real life testimony and like God's going to use. Sometimes it's just entertainment. And, you know, I'm not saying any names. I'm just saying that is definitely out there. So if you're on the fence, if you have somebody in your family, somebody that you know that needs to hear a real different approach to the gospel and how God has changed people's lives. Because you guys make it so personal. I would say definitely check out their website, check out the tour and see them if they come to a city near you. It's definitely seeds will be planted without a doubt. Every time I've seen you guys, I think I've seen you guys. I don't even know. 30 sometimes over the years, maybe more. And sometimes on tours. Like a super fan, bro. No, you just can't. After you see somebody that many times, like, you know, it's not a fluke. Like you guys do the same thing every time. And so I can just co-sign that and say if you guys are looking for a good place to take a group of teens or anybody that needs to hear a real different approach to the salvation message of Christ, check out an unspoken show for sure. Well, we appreciate what you guys do and what Moody does and all this. I mean, all these Bible teachings over the years. Beautiful stuff. In fact, we went to the radio station in Chicago a little while ago, several months ago, and I got home and I was like, I told my son, maybe you should, like you could live in Chicago, downtown Chicago, super nice, go to school, study, you know, whatever. And so I was trying to get him to go over there, but... Yeah, I used to be an academic dean at Moody Bible Institute. So, yeah, I was there for 11 years before I moved over to the D.L. Moody Center. So it's a great place and, you know, a great mission, you know, training folks for ministry. So, but, you know, I know you guys are busy. I know you're out on tour. We appreciate you spending this much time with us. Any sort of last word you want to leave folks with before we kind of sign off for this episode? You're the man of last words, Chip. You know, I don't. You know, just thank you for having us and, you know. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for being here. Thanks for sharing your stories. And thanks for the ministry that you're doing, not just on stage, but some of these other things you're involved with. We really appreciate it. And it was great talking to you guys. Yes, sir. Thanks, you know, I love you guys. Thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it. Yep. And we'll catch everybody on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Thanks. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Relationships, mental health, work, family. Life can feel complicated, but you're not alone. I'm Shanti Feldhahn. And I'm Jeff Feldhahn. On I Wish You Could Hear This, we share simple, proven, and sometimes surprising secrets from decades of research to help you thrive in life, faith, and relationships. Want real stories? Real help? Real fun? And real hope? Listen on lifeaudio.com or follow I Wish You Could Hear This on your favorite podcast app.