Pieter Valk | Singleness, Manhood, and Sexual Discipleship

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I am joined today by Peter Volk. Peter is the founder and director of Equip, and he's also a founding brother of Mikey Medical Monastery in Nashville. And I'll let him talk a little bit more. But we're going to be talking a little bit about the issues of singleness and maleness in the church and probably a few other topics. And so excited to have Peter here. Peter, welcome to the program. Thanks for being on. Yeah, James. Thanks for inviting me. I'm looking forward to the conversation. Yeah. So talk a little bit about Equip. I mean, as I was preparing for the interview, I got on the website and looked through the different things and read a couple of articles. Really great stuff. But explain to people what Equip does and how Equip works. Yeah. So my day job is I run a ministry that for the past 11 years, we have equipped over 35,000 Christian leaders to better minister to people who experience same-sex attraction or gender incongruence according to a biblical sexual ethic. And a lot of what we at Equip do is kind of coachings, trainings, consulting for churches and church leaders. But we also have a lot of kind of on-demand resources available for individual parents, individual pastors who want to upskill in their ability to provide pastoral care to LGBT plus people according to a historic Christian sexual ethic. And that work matters to me because I am a Christian and I experience same-sex attraction and I believe that a biblical sexual ethic is God's best for me. And I'm personally walking out vocational singleness, you know, a lifetime abstinence singleness for the sake of kingdom work with undivided attention. And yeah, so that's a little bit about the work of Equip. We could probably get more into it, you know, what we see as common challenges and solutions that we help churches with. But also I know, you know, a lot of the work we do at Equip is realizing that the challenges that our churches and families are facing in terms of kind of ministry to this population really have to do with broader challenges in the church. We just kind of see them and notice them more among LGBT plus people than elsewhere. And a big one of that is that few of our churches are places where anyone could walk out long-term or lifetime singleness and really thrive and find the support they need. And that is not unique to same-sex attracted Christians who feel called to celibacy, you know. I mean, much more numerously, there are single, straight, adult women who prefer to marry, but there aren't enough, you know, faithful men in our churches. There's divorcees and widows. There's a lot of people walking out long-term singleness in our churches that aren't finding the support that they need. And we know from research from the Barna Group and some other places that kind of being unmarried and experiencing loneliness and then unmarriedness increases people's chances of doubting whether God exists and of not being able to rebound from kind of a period of extreme kind of doubt and leaving the faith. And so these are gospel issues for us. That's why we do this work. And it's got broad application as well. Yeah. It's interesting. I just taught through 1 Corinthians or Antiquities 1 Corinthians. And you get to that chapter where Paul is really interacting with the Corinthian claims that, you know, men and women shouldn't have sexual relations. And he deals with singleness within that context. And what you see there is Paul basically saying, look, singleness can be a viable option for Christians. And, in fact, sometimes it's preferable. And he would say, you know, I mean, I think he phrases it like, I wish all were like me. But he recognizes that not everyone is going to be like him. The whole sort of the folks on who talk about marriage and about balance and bond. I'm sure you're familiar with that work. But she talks about the medieval shift where women really did start to be less culpit oriented and more Catholic life oriented. I'm quoting the book correctly. It's from the pulpit to the display. But she talks about, you know, these these issues of singleness. During that medieval period, this feels like we've very much split post-Reformation into a place where marriage is the preferred mechanism for a being in the church. And singleness, while we don't necessarily include it, it isn't exactly something to your point where you can find the resources. Live sine in the church. Am I articulating that in an intelligible way? I think you're naming it just right. I mean, I think the reformation was was responding accurately to some some mistakes, some ways that celibacy was both being taught as holier than marriage, which it is not. But also the Catholic Church was not supporting Catholic priests well and then covering up the fact that they were being unfaithful in their celibacy. OK, I just but it does seem like in some ways, maybe the reformation overcorrected a little bit and then started teaching, you know, yeah, overcorrected a little bit. So we're still kind of dealing in some ways with the with the the negative effects of that of that split. But but also, you know, we can learn from that. We can improve. Yeah. As you look at this, I'm going to ask you a perspective. So I'm focused on the Old Testament. The Old Testament family is, I would say, far more emphasized than you see it in the New Testament. Sure. It's not that it's absent in the New Testament. Neither is, you know, sort of evangelism absent in the Old Testament. Sure. But the biological imperative was much stronger in the Old Testament. Absolutely. You move into the New Testament. What do you make of that shift in emphasis and how it's how it's How it allows for, maybe, how it gestures toward a life of singleness. Yeah. So, and, and the New Testament is not not throwing away the Old Testament, right? We are an Old Testament people. It's a continuation. Um, and, and I think where the New Testament goes with this makes a lot of sense. So yeah, Old Testament. Um, I mean, a big part of God's covenant with his people is I will bless you through your being fruitful and multiplying, you know? And the way you join God's family was from birth into a Jewish family. And so then understandably, barrenness, um, being a literal eunuch or being a metaphorical eunuch, being a celibate person, being a person without spouse, without kids was seen as being like, you're really missing out on a key part of the covenant in the Old Testament. So it makes sense, right? But we see even in Isaiah 56, we see this, um, this, this, this preview of a savior will come and a savior will establish kind of a new order where the barren, the celibate, the eunuch, either literal or metaphorical, uh, will find equal place in God's family. Um, and then I think fast forward to Matthew 19, we see Jesus, um, basically kind of instituting a, a, a vocational singleness that is normative alongside Christian marriage. Less common, less common, but, but normative, not, not an exception to the rule, not a weird kind of a thing that for a few, maybe they're doing it faithfully in the Old Testament, but for most, it is a failing to, to, to, to pull their weight in the community if they are still single. Jesus is saying I'm establishing a vocation of singleness that is normative, yet less common. And he uses this eunuch language. It seems to a lot of scholars that he's basically pointing back to Isaiah 56 and he says, this is the moment. You know, I'm, I'm bringing this full circle. Um, so this makes sense to us because Jesus is establishing a new covenant where we are, we not just join God's, we don't join God's family by being born into it. We join God's family by being grafted into it, uh, through baptism and profession of faith. Um, and so this means that while, in my opinion, you know, with my kind of, uh, Anglican, Anglo-Catholic leanings, I, I do think that the, the invitation to be fruitful and multiply is still applies to those who are called to Christian marriage. Yeah. But it means not all are called to Christian marriage. Right. But all are called to be spiritually procreative. Yeah. All are called to disciple believers, to, to, to share their testimony with hopes that the Holy Spirit will do the work of, of, of bringing more to, to our family. Um, and so I think there is a shift there. Okay. Um, but I think, interestingly, the last thing I'll end on is maybe what you mentioned about family. Yeah. Um, there is a sense in the, in the Old Testament that one of the big benefits of marriage was, it was a provision of financial security and physical protection and, and legacy. Those three things. Um, and I do think that, uh,

You know, there's some odd ways that in some Christian spaces, we speak of singleness as if it is a call to loneliness for the sake of the gospel and throwing off our needs for the local church and just going wherever the Holy Spirit kind of strangely leads us. But that is not how it was practiced in the early church. And I don't see anything in the scriptures that hints to that. Actually, quite the contrary. At least what I see in the New Testament is a suggestion that those called to vocational singleness are called to just as much family, just as much community, just as much connection and commitment and stability as those called to Christian marriage. But they're going to find that in the body of Christ. And it's the blood of Christ that kind of binds us more so than our biology, who we are blood related to. Not to say that Jesus is discarding that. He's not saying do away with the commandments and ignore your father and mother, you know. But what he's saying is, let's add into that, you know. So yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll stop there. No, really helpful. You know, you transition into family there. One of the things that I've noticed, so and I don't want to put him on blast or anything like that. I read Rob Mark Driscoll's book, Act Like Men. One of the things I noticed when I'm reading that book is that masculinity was very much tied to fatherhood, which I find sort of interesting, right? Because what it feels like we're doing is we can't disconnect what it means to be a man from what it means to be a father. So as we think about this issue of singleness, there are some downstream issues, right? We've almost got to think through more carefully because being a father is certainly something that only a man can do. We could say that. But it isn't something that is definitive for a man to do, at least in that biological environment. And so as you think about singleness, as you think about manhood, as you think about perceptions of masculinity, and this is the thorny issue anyway, you know, how does singleness sort of play into that? And what does it look like to be, I wouldn't just get to use the term a biblical man who doesn't have a family, who doesn't have kids, who doesn't have biological children? How would you think through that? Yeah, I mean, I definitely think the Christian men are called to be generative, are called to be spiritually procreative, are called to be spiritual fathers, are called to do kingdom work in ways that are sacrificial and tenacious and require courage. I think all those things are true. I think Mark might be, I think Mark might be noticing the right problem in some ways, but maybe giving a little bit off of a solution. And I would say the problem is, well, let me back up. First, I think it might be helpful to make a distinction between the common singleness that we are all born into versus the kind of vocational singleness that Jesus talks about in Matthew 19 and Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 7, that you intentionally step into and commit to that is distinct from the singleness we're all born into. And I do think that what we see in the scriptures, but also in the history of the church, is this kind of invitation that we're all born into common singleness. And then in our teenage years, young adult years, we discern whether we are called to Christian marriage or an intentional, robust, sacrificial vocational singleness. And then we choose one and we commit to it and we get down to the work of the kingdom work that each, those vocations involve. And I think what Mark's maybe, the problem he's getting at, and I think truly is a problem, is we have too many Christian young adults persisting in common singleness into their twenties and thirties, forties and fifties, right? I think we have too little Christian marriage in the church and too little vocational singleness in the church. So almost like there's a default option that we're not being intentional enough about one way or the other. And he's emphasizing this sort of, let's be intentional about getting married. Let's be intentional about being fathers, and just not really mentioning as much the flip side of that coin, which is we also need to be intentional about deciding I shouldn't be commonly single. I should be vocationally single. I like that. That's really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. So I, yeah, I think we need more of both. I think Mark is probably right in the sense that we need more Christian marriage in our churches. We need less people continuing in the singleness in their twenties and thirties, more people settling down and then doing the kingdom work within Christian marriage that is raising kids for the sake of the kingdom. And we need more people committing to vocational singleness. And I think, I don't think those are in competition. I actually think discernment, pushing kind of young adults to discern earnestly and encouraging them to commit to something and settle down into something is a rising tide that lifts all boats. So, yeah. Very helpful. I like that distinction. And it is extremely helpful. It hits on a topic that I think probably is interesting to talk about as well, which is that sort of delayed adolescence and, you know, continual, I mean, I just read a study the other day and I don't remember all the stats exactly, but you have a bigger push with younger men, particularly younger Christian men for marriage and family. And you have a much less of a push for younger women. And, you know, getting into, so now we're almost getting this mismatch where I think long time the stereotype has been men settle down and the women wait. Now we're almost getting the flip side of that, it seems like, this sort of, you know, an overcorrection within both ways. And so we're going to end up, I like the distinction, with a lot of people who are probably going to just opt for common singleness without really thinking through their vocational, what are they supposed to be doing for Christ in the moment? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's tough because they've not, I mean, most of these young adults were not taught to kind of consider both vocational singleness and Christian marriage to anticipate that they will one day ask the Lord which gift he wants to give. They didn't see great models sometimes of either vocational singleness or Christian marriage. So that makes sense why young adults would hesitate, you know. And I understand that, like, we hear from some circles that, like, you know, our sanctification is never over, our discipleship is never over, our maturation is never over. And for many, stepping into, and you're never ready for Christian marriage, but for many men, maybe stepping into Christian marriage is one of the biggest ways that you will grow up, you know. But I also get why people would hesitate to encourage, you know, maybe people who are less mature to just get into Christian marriage expecting that that will mature you. So I appreciate the tension. It's hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you've written a lot on the issue of singleness, the issue of celibacy, and I think also that I appreciate the Quip's emphasis on that traditional sexual ethic. And so one of the things that I've read on the website and I'd just explore with you a little bit is how the way you approach these matters in caring for gay and lesbian people within the church, how that elevates everyone's sexuality. I think that's the way it was put on the website. So as you think through, again, these issues of singleness are not disconnected from sex. The issues of marriage obviously are not disconnected from sex, but neither are the sort of issues that you're dealing with the LGBTQ issues. And so how do you see this as you work with churches? How do you see that elevating their understanding of sex or sexual ethics, sexual theological ethics? Sure, sure. Yeah, so I'll ask them two ways. First, that if we just assume that marriage is for everyone, that it's the default, and that also it is kind of the primary tool to deal with young adult men's lack of sexual discipleship, their issues with pornography and lust. You know, it's a remedy for weakness. We're turning kind of what I would say Christian sacramental marriage into something much thinner and less meaningful. You know, we've made marriage really small. Almost like a coping device. Yeah. And marriage is supposed to be this beautiful thing that preaches the gospel, you know. And so that hurts straight people in our churches. That hurts married people in our churches when that's what we've made marriage into. And some of why it's that way is because we lack kind of the balance.

the element of a robust teaching and practice of vocational singleness in our churches, first rate people. But I think the way that comes up in kind of ministry to LGBT plus people, but then later becomes a key lever to all of us doing this well, is what myself and many of my peers who grew up in the church noticed, realized when we went through puberty that we experienced same-sex attraction. We looked around and we saw that, well, our people we knew who were straight and Christian and young adults or further into adulthood, they didn't seem to be taking what the Bible said about considering lifetime celibacy seriously. They didn't seem to be taking what the Bible had to say about kind of marriage being a space for raising children for the sake of the kingdom sacrificially. Didn't seem to be taking that seriously. They didn't seem to be taking seriously what the scriptures had to say about unbiblical divorce and remarriage. And so what the enemy whispered into our ears was, straight people don't care about what the Bible says about sexuality, so why should you? And that, that was a pretty compelling lie. That was a pretty compelling kind of accusation of hypocrisy and double standard, and therefore I shouldn't take God's wisdom seriously either. The reality is, keep your eyes focused on your own plate. It doesn't matter what anyone else is doing. If God's wisdom for me is God's wisdom for me, is God's best, is really God's best, it doesn't, it's still good for me. Even if other people are being tricked into disregarding God's best, you know? So, but there's something to that, right? That if we actually raise the bar for everyone's sexual stewardship in our churches, we will rob the enemy of that lie. Also, the way that we've been kind of bending and breaking God's wisdom for straight people's sexual stewardship, it maybe has been more convenient for some straight Christians in the short term, but it has not been good for straight Christians in the long term. I mean, there's high rates of divorce. There's high rates of loneliness among straight Christians. So I don't think kind of returning to teaching God's wisdom for everyone's sexual stewardship and providing people with the supports they need to live into that, that's not about making things hard for straight Christians so that it's equally hard for everyone. It's actually about bringing life-giving wisdom to straight Christians in our churches. So I think it's a win-win. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. I love that. I mean, it's interesting to think about how singleness and marriage actually could reinforce one another. And I don't know that I've done a lot of thinking about it. Obviously, I see it when you read through 1 Corinthians. That's the main place people would go to sort of look at singleness, although you've brought up Jesus' teaching on it in the Gospels. And so, you know, in Paul's context, he's pretty clear on singleness, that it's a viable strategy for some people. And he's fond of that in 1 Corinthians is really where Christians start to sort of slip into this idea that, well, if you're feeling lust, if you can't control yourself, then get married. I mean, Paul says as much there. I think that's Extracting that from his context, right? Extracting it from what he's interacting with in the moment, which is this Corinthian idea that men and women should not have sex at all. And that seems to be what he's interacting with. He's not only affirming celibacy, but he's also saying, look, like, sex should happen. It should happen in appropriate ways and in appropriate places. Is that sort of, in your experience, where you see people sort of going off the rails with this, that that advice of what's boiled marriage down to something that is a sexual outlet for men who can't control themselves and women who can't control themselves. Do you see that's where that comes from? Yeah, I do think 1 Corinthians 7.9, better to marry than to burn, taken out of context, is a comment, it has a lot of pull in this conversation. And I think you are naming it spot on. The key is to understand the context. The key is to understand that the church in Corinth at this time had kind of gone too far in teaching about celibacy and had this one group of Christians who were kind of mistaking overzealously teaching that like everyone should be celibate and that sex is bad, which is not what Christ was suggesting. And then alongside that, there's this group of other Christians who almost have this like quasi-Gnostic view of life that are, that our bodies are these gross containers and all that matters is kind of our spiritual commitments. And so they are kind of saying they are celibate in spirit and then still engaging with their bodies in sexual immorality. And at least, you know, when you get deep into like the context and what is Paul responding to, many scholars have suggested that in the 1 Corinthians 7.9 what Paul is narrowly responding to is saying, hey, those of you who are claiming to be celibate, but basically doing a half-assed job of it and not even trying to do it and like, you know, coming up with these like silly Gnostic, you know, defenses for your spiritual celibacy and your like physical immorality. He's saying in a more of a facetious way, like anything would be better than that. It's better to marry than do that, right? But for me, I think it's really helpful to read 1 Corinthians 7 and Matthew 19 side by side. So in 1 Corinthians 7, we have Jesus, Paul kind of cautioning like, don't make public commitments to vocational singleness and, and tell people to look to your faithfulness and vocational singleness to teach them something about the gospel unless you're really ready to do that, unless you really have the gift and you've discerned that well and you think you're prepared to make that kind of commitment. And then in Matthew 19, Jesus appears to kind of surprising his disciples and surprising kind of the religious leaders who are asking him these questions about divorce. He seems to raise the bar and call people to a much more stringent commitment to faithfulness and basically say, outside of a few exceptions, lifetime marriage is lifetime marriage. I want to return to, to God's original intentions for lifetime marriage. And then he says, not all can accept this. Only to those that this gift has been, this gift of Christian marriage has been given, only those who can embrace it. He's saying, also don't commit to Christian marriage unless you are ready to accept your, you have the gift and you are ready to accept the difficulty of the calling. And so I don't know, side by side, what I hear Paul and Jesus saying together is, do not rush into either Christian marriage or vocational singleness. Do not step into either unless you have the gift. Do not, do not publicly claim that I'm, I'm receiving this gift and, and look to my faithfulness to learn something about God's faithfulness unless you're really ready for that, that weight, that responsibility. Interesting. Yeah, that's what, that's how I kind of understand 1 Corinthians 7, 9. No, it's really helpful. I think that's right. I mean, it's Yeah, I guess I'm just struggling with the, now that you've said it, sort of the overemphasis on marriage. And again, you know, sort of, want to move thoughts based on what you're saying, like how all this could really fit together. And I'm wondering, as you go in and talk to churches, you know, part of, part of what you're talking to churches about is how do we treat, how do we minister to people with same-sex attraction and how do we help them live according to biblical wisdom? But as I listen to you talk more and more, it's like, the message that doesn't really need to be tailored to that audience. It needs to be brought to everybody and how we live according to sexual wisdom. And then there are these particular aspects that are related to same-sex attracted people in part because it's a unique problem, but also in part because there was a major social stigma attached to it. And like, I guess that's a question, right? You know, so what do you find that you struggle with most as you're consulting with churches? Do you find that they just don't have the words or do you find that they're struggling with the stigma? Like, and I'll give you this example.

Just so you can kind of make context for it. I was working in college and I had a couple faculty members come to me and express that they'd had students come to them and were expressing struggling with same-sex attraction. And they wanted me to get them some help because they didn't feel comfortable addressing it. Sure, sure. Now, these are the same faculty members who would have worked with a heterosexual student who was struggling with pornography, let's say. Right. This particular issue, they just felt completely inept to deal with. Didn't feel comfortable doing it. Didn't feel like, it just didn't resonate with them. And I, like, so there's part of me that understands it. Yeah. But then there was part of me that was just kind of like, it's a student who's struggling and we do that all the time. And so there's gonna be particulars. If you wait a bit, it'd probably be crazy. Yeah. It's gonna be a little different than what you're usually used to, but it's not gonna be like the craziest thing you've ever done. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, since that point, I'm just kind of sitting back like, what is it? What do you run into in these churches when, you know, is it really something where they just don't understand how to articulate it or more reticent to dive into it? Yeah, two things come to mind. So first, you know, when I hear that hesitancy from pastors, parents, you know, counselors, and I probe them a little bit, you know, I ask some more questions. What they end up saying to me, if they're being really honest, is, well, I don't think lifetime celibacy is a good sell to straight people in my life, straight Christians in my life. That sounds lonely. You know, unless you have an extraordinary gift for it, but certainly in an involuntary long-term singleness, that sounds like a curse. I don't know how to, I would never try to sell that to straight Christians that I know. I don't know how to sell that to a gay Christian. Because I don't believe in it. I still think the gay sex is a sin in any context, but I don't really know what to offer them. Right. Yeah. It's single celibacy is an option, then what else do you, what else do you say? Yeah. And I appreciate an honest answer from them. And to be clear, I don't think that, that celibacy is the only option for Christians who experience same-sex attraction. Some Christians who experience same-sex attraction, even without meaningful kind of general physical romantic attraction to people of the opposite sex, will date individuals of the opposite sex with full transparency about their sexual orientation, will kind of develop specific interest and desire for a particular person of the opposite sex, and will end up marrying someone of the opposite sex in what's called kind of a mixed orientation marriage, and be really transparent about their, their about their the differences in their experiences, both within their marriage and outside of their marriage. And those can be healthy too, you know, but there's some ways in which that kind of mixed orientation marriage option was kind of abused in the church in the past. You know, people were told, never share with anyone about your sexuality, just marry someone of the opposite sex and it'll fix everything. And we probably all know people who are impacted negatively by that kind of arrangement. So I'm not suggesting that, but I just do want to point out that I don't think celibacy is the only option for people who experience same-sex attraction. But I think the other big thing when we work with churches, the other big blind spot is what churches usually do, is they avoid talking too much about LGBT+ topics, certainly don't talk about it at all with elementary school kids. They barely talk about it maybe a little bit with like middle schoolers, and then maybe they'll talk about a little bit more directly with high schoolers. But for the most part, they wait until a teen comes out, shares with them that they experience same-sex attraction to talk, to disciple them around these topics, to guide them in how to think about this stuff. The problem is that on average, there's a five-year gap between when a kid first notices same-sex attractions and first tells a parent or a pastor. And that is five years during which this kid is wrestling with this stuff alone in the closet, in the darkness of the closet, where the enemy tortures them. I mean, this was my experience. The enemy tortured me with with lies that it was my fault that I experienced same-sex attraction, that God had not answered my prayers for my same-sex attractions to be eliminated because I was cursed or I was forsaken. It led to loneliness, isolation, anxiety, depression. For many, it leads to suicidality or believing that God does not love them and is not worth following or abandoning God's wisdom or abandoning a belief in God altogether. For most kids, when they share with a parent or pastor, five years later, they've already lost their faith and it's too late to get it back most of the time. I'm not saying the Holy Spirit can't do a miracle. I'm just saying anecdotally from the hundreds of parents I've talked to in this situation and the hundreds of friends I've had who are the same-sex attracted teen in this situation, it's too late. And so I think the key lever, the most important aspect of like LGBT+ ministry we can do is preventing that five-year gap, that five years in the closet, that five years that leads to loss of faith or suicidality for a teen, eliminate those five years. How can we eliminate those five years? How can we make sure that as soon as a teen notices same-sex attractions, they share with a parent or pastor and they already have a little bit of hope that their parents will respond well, that God has good plans for them, that their life could be good. How do we make that happen? I think the only way to make that happen is our churches need to equip parents to have age-appropriate, frequent conversations with their kids about sexual stewardship for all people and about God's love and wisdom for LGBT+ people. And I think we need to make sure that before puberty, every kid hears, you know, hey, you know, we've talked about same-sex attraction, that particular kind of brokenness that some people experience. Who knows, that might be your story. I hope not because I don't want there to be anything about your story that makes your life more difficult, but all of us have got some stuff that makes our life more difficult. If that's your story, if you wake up one day and you realize you're attracted to other boys, your same age instead of other girls, your same age, I want you to know that you can tell me. I want you to know that you, it's not your fault. God is not mad at you. I am not mad at you. God loves you deeply. I love you deeply. God has good wisdom for you and good plans for you. We can make sense of this together. You don't have to make sense of it alone. Please tell me. Yeah. Would you say there's a sense in which, I want to return to a couple of things you said there. Yeah. So I think, so I think it's, you know, in my mind, I'm like, it seems like it would be really controversial in a lot of churches to have these kind of conversations. Could be. We tend to think of it in terms of, look, let's give them the ideal and the ideal will carry them through as if the education is ultimately going to so impact the desires that they're never even going to think or feel any other way than just what the ideal is, which any of our experience would suggest that that's just not the case. And so, what sort of conversations are you thinking about? I mean, I can remember conversations with my son and intentional conversations, but also very brief conversations. Yeah. I would just say, if we notice that there was a, you know, the school would do a piece on LGBTQ or there'd be a transgender kid, you know, something like that, they're running into it. So we'd just say, you know, we, we, we still love these people. This is just one of those things where when people are living outside of the context of, let me phrase it like this, but essentially what we say is wisdom. Sometimes these things happen. We still love them and we would love them to, we also love them to understand who Christ is and to imitate him in whatever way is appropriate for them at that moment. I'm not sure we have those conversations particularly well. I think we got our point across. Sure, sure. Overall. Yeah. I mean some guidance on how to have that conversation would be helpful. Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. Yes, I mean, it makes sense that a lot of parents are afraid of them, those conversations. Also afraid to like say the wrong things too early and confuse their kids. I totally understand that concern. I think the key is like age-appropriate conversations. So at Equip, our vice president of Impact, she is a mom herself. She's a former school teacher. One of her kids has been asking questions about her sexuality. Part of her story is that she was married to a gay man who was transparent about his sexuality before they got married. But then after they were married, he left the faith and then he left their marriage. And so she's had to navigate honest conversations about that with her kids in age-appropriate ways throughout their lifetime. And so she has actually developed a really exhaustive resource for us, a parent course on how to equip parents around all these conversations.

One of the key aspects of this is that she has conversation scripts for both proactive conversations to have with your kids and reactive conversations based on different topics, different questions. And then within each script for each question, it's here's the 0 to 2 way to talk about this. Here's the 3 to 5 way to talk about this. Here's the 7 to 9 way to talk about this. Like it's chunked in age range in terms of building complexity and maturity. And so, yeah, I would recommend anyone kind of go to our website, check out those resources, and parents can get kind of on-demand access to to, to those video resources and notes and handouts. Um, but the other thing I would say is uh is just encourage parents to like take that creation fall redemption narrative that we, that many of us have kind of been offered in our churches as ways to make sense of the big story of scripture and, and make sense of a lot of things in life and teach your kids about sexuality through that narrative. God first made us in a world without pain and without sin and without blemish and without brokenness to, to relate and be in community and love in certain ways. And then sin and brokenness enter the world and bent everything. That means that all of us, all of our sexualities, all of our um capacity and ways that we attempt to connect in friendship and relationship and community, whatever it looks like, is going to be impacted by the fall. And I don't, and, and I don't know which particular kind of brokenness you're gonna experience. I don't know how the fall is going to impact you particularly. I don't know what your temptations are going to be. I don't know what's going to be more difficult for you than the next person in terms of the ways that you connect in friendship and relationship and community with others. But there is redemption. The Christ has already come and offered us his wisdom in terms of how to steward our sexuality in the midst of brokenness. And also his Holy Spirit to empower us to do it faithfully. Also, Jesus will return to finish the job of establishing a new heavens and new earth where we will be done with all of this brokenness and we'll be able to enjoy community perfectly with Jesus and with each other. And that's where we find ourselves in the story right now when it comes to creation, fall, redemption, and our, our need for community and connection and companionship. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide, or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. So that sort of connects with where I wanted to go back to as well, the mixed orientation marriage. I think some of these frameworks are actually really helpful because, you know, just what you just said, everybody's going to struggle with their own sense of brokenness. And one of the things I work through with people as I disciple, disciple and work through different things with them is you can't fix it all at once. Like sometimes, like the Holy Spirit is convicting us about X when we still need to change Y and Z. So, you know, there we have to give people some time. We have to give them some patience. We have to continue recognizing that there's more brokenness there. We're not saying that the brokenness is okay. You know, it's still brokenness that we need to name as such. But it isn't as if just because we want to prioritize one sin over another at this very moment, that that's the one that is really going to get fixed immediately. I think we make that mistake an awful lot. One of the things I like about what you said is, you know, there's a broad aspect. Everybody's broken. There's brokenness all over the place. Not sure what kind of brokenness you're going to experience. And it strikes me that that's so parallel with this sort of mixed orientation marriage. And I've heard about these things. So, but it makes intuitive sense to me because I'm not attracted to every woman I see. And I think this is one of those heterosexual myths, you know, that men are just out, you know, their tongues are wagging around, the woman they're attracted to. Well, that's not the case. I love my wife. I love my wife particularly. Right. And there's a different sort of love there for my wife, particularly. And that's not to say I don't find any other woman attractive ever, but it's also not to say that I'm just chasing, you know, oh man, if I was single, I'd just be chasing every woman. That's not the case. There's an abstract notion of, yes, this is generally what I'm attracted to versus the concrete relationship I have with one person that sort of isn't exactly the same category as that broader attraction. Yeah. So just, I don't know, I felt like going back to that, because I think people might hear that and be like, oh, that's really strange. We're just not used to it. But am I articulating that in a way that that would resonate with you? Like, is that sort of how you would think about it? Yeah, and I would say if people are curious about, like, kind of reading more about this kind of phenomena, I really suggest the book Impossible Marriage by Lori Krieg. And she talks about, she and her husband in the book kind of talk about their mixed orientation marriage and what their impossible marriage taught them about, like, marriage for everyone and following Jesus for everyone. I think it's a great book. But yeah, I'll say, like, I, so I, you know, I'm personally committed to vocational singleness, but, and I generally would identify as like gay, not bisexual. But I was in a Christian fraternity in college and while also being transparent about my sexual orientation while having to take girls to date events. And I, you know, by accident, essentially ended up, like, enjoying some, some of those date events and then asked some of those women if they wanted to keep on hanging out and ended up dating three of them and falling in love with two of them. And one of them, we, we, we almost got engaged, but broke up for reasons I'm related to my sexuality. But that's all to say, like, mixed orientation marriage was a real possibility for me. I knew that could work if God called me to that. And I felt God positively called me to vocational singleness. And so that's why I've stepped into that. But I've got lots of friends walking out in mixed orientation marriages. I'm outside of all the public ministry stuff I do. I'm also a licensed professional counselor, and I actually meet with a good number of, of men in mixed orientation marriages in private practice counseling. And one thing I'll say, maybe this is a helpful kind of like um window into it. Um, because I think people might assume like, oh, the biggest relational challenge these marriages probably have is that there's like not enough sex. Yeah. That there's just not enough desire. Um, that, that, that, that feels like there's an emptiness or a gap there. Maybe they never have kids and they feel left out. I will say consistently the mixed orientation marriages I know, um, they enjoy marital intimacy about as frequently as, as other, you know, um, typical uh opposite sex couples do. You know, maybe not, maybe it's not as frequent as as others in the first year or two of marriage, but once you get to year five, it's the same, you know. Um, and they, they have kids, uh, sometimes many kids, you know. So, so that is not where there's a gap or there's a difference. I'll say most commonly what it leads to kind of the end of mixed orientation marriages is if there, if there wasn't transparency about the sexual orientation during the dating process, um, or, or there's hiding later in the marriage, um, or if the couple doesn't share that they're in a mixed orientation marriage with other couples that they hang out with at their church, because what a very common problem is, is individuals in the mixed orientation marriage, they'll get into a difficult spot in their marriage and they will assume it was, it's because one of us experienced the same sex attraction. That's why this moment is hard. And that will, and that might eventually lead to divorce. If they only had some other typical opposite sex couples in their church and said, hey, we're struggling with this. What do you think? Is it because one of us is gay? And every, almost every time the other couples say, no, that's nothing. Every marriage struggles with that. That has nothing to do with the unique features of your mixed orientation marriage. So I just, I really encourage couples to be um transparent with each other early in the dating relationship, to be transparent with each other throughout their dating, throughout their, the relationship, and, and bring other couples into it. Be honest with the, the, the kind of the people in their life about this so that they can kind of give them a sense of perspective on whether or not the thing they're struggling with has something to do with the fact that one of

You okay with the cool question? Sure. I'm fine on it. Yeah. So I'm just, I'm writing on this internet at Texas A&M. There was a, you know, a child literature class where they were teaching about transgender issues. And then we have the Trump order about just male and female and the trans issues and those kinds of things. You know, I grew up when gay marriage was just sort of percolating. You know, my kids think it's fascinating that don't ask, don't tell that Bill Clinton implemented, right? But we've always had from its inception, an awful lot of political work being done in the areas of sexuality and civil rights, sexuality and you know, ideology. And I'm wondering just, you know, from your perspective, I have trouble believing that some of that is actually helpful. Sure, sure. You know, that it doesn't just create either overly positive, overly negative perceptions that then tend to creep into the church a bit. Sure. So I'm wondering if you can kind of speak to, just generally, how do you see politics, not saying a number does anything good, but what do you see as the major influences from these political sort of activities in this realm that are really trying to govern a civil space? How are they sneaking into a sacred space like the church and influencing how people think about these things? Yeah, so I think, you know, we get into trouble when as believers, we let politicians lead our response to important cultural and theological questions. Yeah. And I think that happens a lot. I think that happened in the gay marriage debates, right? It became a debate about what is natural order marriage, what kind of marriages should we give certain legal rights to? We weren't having really a conversation about what is the kind of Christian marriage that God joins and sustains in a unique way that is different than opposite sex non-Christian marriage, for example. Yeah. Why were we not most concerned with not what is in our laws, but what are we blessing in our churches? Yeah. And also having honest conversations about divorce and remarriage and about Christian marriages accepting the call to raise children for the sake of the kingdom. If we've already cared about the sanctity of marriage, there are other conversations we could be having, right? And or we could be having conversations about if we think God has something better to offer gay people than gay marriage, let's prove it. Yeah. I don't mean theologically prove it. I mean in the fruit of the ministry of our churches, let's prove it. Let's show. Yes, exactly. So I think the same thing, unfortunately, I think history could repeat itself with trans topics. And I wrote about this actually recently in Christianity Today. And this was last December when they were doing the first hearings on the Supreme Court case around trans adolescent medical transition. And then this past summer, then we got the final ruling on that. My invitation to Christians was, let's not repeat the past. Let's not be sucked into representing Jesus by just repeating political talking points in conversations about trans topics. Let's pause. Let's as believers go to the scriptures and try to understand what is Christ's love and wisdom for a person who experiences gender incongruence. What is Christ's love and wisdom on trans topics? And then show up to the conversation with that. And there's resources on equip's website for kind of how a Christian can start to think well about that. But there's a reality that while there are some teens who are just calling themselves non-binary or trans to piss off their parents or because they're rejecting toxic masculinity, there are a meaningful number of kids and teens who, since they were three years old, they looked in the mirror and they saw their body and by no fault of their own, they felt like they were in the wrong body. And they experienced, I think most likely their body physically has God intended, but they're experiencing a brokenness in their experience of their gender spiritually and mentally. And it's no different than my same-sex attractions in some way. It is no different than the thorn in Paul's side. You know, it's no different than something that is off about us because we live in a broken world that God may not make right, even if we ask for it on this side of heaven. Right. And we might not know the full reasons, but in part, it reminds us daily that we need Jesus. Yeah. And that we as a church need to come around each other and help each other carry our burdens. Are our churches places where a teen could share, I look in the mirror, I feel like I'm in the wrong body. I want to honor that my body is probably the body God meant to give me, but this is really hard. What do I do? Can you help me carry this faithfully? Are we churches that are ready for that? That's what we should be like putting our time and energy into instead of the bathroom debates and the sports debates and, you know, that kind of stuff because this is about the gospel. You know, we know that not straight non-Christians when they're asked, why wouldn't you give Jesus a chance? When they're surveyed, number one response they give repeatedly in these kinds of surveys is, oh, my perception of the of Christians' treatment of LGBT plus people. Right. How we participated in the gay marriage debates erected barriers to the gospel, made Jesus look ugly for a lot of people. Yeah. We can't repeat that. You know, we've got to do it differently for the sake of the gospel. So. So, yeah, I would encourage believers to to think more deeply about that. Check out Equip's website for some resources we have on that or check out Preston Sprinkle's book Embodied on that topic. But I think we need to get this right. And I think we have a chance not only to prevent the the negatives of the gay marriage debates, but I think we can make trans topics a winning conversation for the gospel if we do this well. So let's do it. I really appreciate your insights. I mean, this has been a great conversation. Website equipyourcommunity.com. Yes. Yes. Thank you all again for these resources. Even if you're talking about those kind of things. I'm thinking back. I don't know that I understand those conversations in a biblical way. And so you've got resources that can help people do that. Maybe praise it if you use them on equipcommunity.com. Check out Peter's work. If you go to his website, it's Peter Valk.com. Yeah, Peter L. Valk. It's spelled funny, though. My first name is Dutch. So it's P-I-E-T-E-R-L-V-A-L-K.com. And that's also my handle on social. So if you're on X or you're on Instagram and that's how you kind of learn about some of this stuff, at Peter L. Valk on those different platforms. So, yeah. I'll include that in the show notes. So make sure you navigate to the place where I encourage you all to get some of these resources. Even if you're just thinking about those kind of things. I don't know that I understand those conversations in a biblical way. And so you've got resources that can help people do that. Maybe praise it if you use them on equipcommunity.com. Check out Peter's work. If you go to his website, it's PeterValk.com. Yeah, Peter L. Valk. It's spelled funny, though. My first name is Dutch. So it's P-I-E-T-E-R-L-V-A-L-K.com. And that's also my handle on social. So if you're on X or you're on Instagram and that's how you kind of learn about some of this stuff, at Peter L. Valk on those different platforms. So, yeah. I'll include that in the show notes. So make sure you navigate to the place where I encourage you all to get some of these resources. Even if you're just thinking about those kind of things. I'm thinking back. I don't know that I understand those conversations in a biblical way. And so you've got resources that can help people do that. Maybe praise it if you use them on equipcommunity.com. Check out Peter's work. He's got stuff. If you go to his website, it's PeterValk.com. Yeah, Peter L. Valk. It's spelled funny, though. My first name is Dutch. So it's P-I-E-T-E-R-L-V-A-L-K.com. And that's also my handle on social. So if you're on X or you're on Instagram and that's how you kind of learn about some of this stuff, at Peter L. Valk on those different platforms. So, yeah. I'll include that in the show notes. So make sure you navigate to the place where I encourage you all to get some of these resources. Thanks for your time. I don't know that I understand those conversations in a biblical way. And so you've got resources that can help people do that. Maybe praise it if you use them on equipcommunity.com. Check out Peter's work. He's got stuff. If you go to his website, it's PeterValk.com. Yeah, Peter L. Valk. It's spelled funny, though. My first name is Dutch. So it's P-I-E-T-E-R-L-V-A-L-K.com. And that's also my handle on social. So if you're on X or you're on Instagram and that's how you kind of learn about some of this stuff, at Peter L. Valk on those different platforms. So, yeah. I'll include that in the show notes. So make sure you navigate to the place where I encourage you all to get some of these resources. Thanks for your time. I don't know that I understand those conversations in a biblical way. And so you've got resources that can help people do that. Maybe praise it if you use them on equipcommunity.com. Check out Peter's work. He's got stuff. If you go to his website, it's PeterValk.com. Yeah, Peter L. Valk. It's spelled funny, though. My first name is Dutch. So it's P-I-E-T-E