How Should Christians Think about Islam: A Conversation with Jeff King

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I am joined here by Jeff King, his second time on the show. So thanks a lot, Jeff, for coming back. Jeff is president of International Christian Concern or persecution.org. And he is the author of Islam Uncensored, which is a fascinating book in which Jeff does a series of interviews with people to sort of scope out what Islam is, how radical Islamists think, all those sort of ideas. And so I'm excited to have Jeff back on the show. Jeff, how are you doing today? Just great. Glad to be on again. Very cool, man. Well, let's just dive in because I, like I said in our little pre-interview talk here, I know very little about Islam. You know, I never really dug into the Quran or anything like that. And so it just was never an emphasis in any of my work. I had a buddy who was that I trained with and he was a Taoist. And so I actually read the Tao Te Ching, but I never had any sort of impetus to to dive into the Quran. And so I'm really interested to have this conversation. I guess the first question I'd have is, you know, this book is rooted around interviews. Can you talk a little bit about just the process that you went through to line up all these people and sort of get them in a room with you so you could ask them questions? Yeah. And I'm not organizationally gifted, so you can imagine the logistics, and it wasn't me. It was another brother on my staff who helped and who was amazing. And it's like, oh, my gosh. And so, but even maybe to answer in a way that's a little bit of a pivot, it's just like, why did I write it? Yeah, yeah, sure. And yeah. So, you know, I get called into ministry. I spent 11 years with Crusade Campus Crusade or crew. Prior to that, I'm in banking, you know, always have a deep heart for ministry, but get my calling. He literally just pulls me into crusade running all over the world. Then radical call. I mean, miraculous calling into ICC. Couldn't couldn't miss it. And it's all about persecution. ICC is about persecution, but I don't know that much about persecution, James. I'm like, you know, I know a lot about international ministry and I know some about persecution, but I'm like, OK, Lord, this is your assignment. Here we go. And so the book kind of grew out of I had to understand what I was seeing because, you know, persecution used to be the story of the old Marxist guard, right? And they were dying out. But what we were seeing really since the 70s and it really started to accelerate around 2000, just before that, maybe was the rise of radical Islam, which is a whole deeper rabbit hole to fall into. But so I began to try to, you know, I'm like you, I'm a thinker and a studier and I needed to understand this thing. Yeah. Kind of got kind of began to get on top of it. And from there I said, you know what? I learned so much. I said, I want to write a book. And, you know, I had a very liberal friend. I'm a conservative, or at least I was then generally a conservative. And I had a very liberal friend and I and I saw that no matter what I told him, he couldn't hear his ears were plugged and anything I said was because I was hateful or a bigot or who knows what it was, you know. Right. And so that really helped me frame this book because I said, I want to reach people and I want I want to help them to hear what I learned. And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to interview people of every stripe, every political stripe. So there's atheists, every religious stripe. There's atheists, there's feminists, there's radical Islamists, there's ex-CIA directors. It's just everybody, every stripe. So it doesn't matter what I say, because if I put it out there, it's like, yeah, yeah, well, you know, you're just dealing with the victims all the time. So you've got a chip on your shoulder. But anyways. Yeah. I mean, as I was reading through some of the interviews, right, I won't dive into, you know, I won't ask you real, real specifics, but one of the more compelling characters in the whole book and I think the most surprising probably. I think I'm going to pronounce his name completely wrong, but Ahem Koudary? Who is that? Yeah, exactly. The British Islamist. Yeah, Anjum Choudhury. Anjum Choudhury. Anjum Choudhury. Who's now in prison. Is he really? That's fascinating because, I mean, one of his one of his quotes is, you know, I believe there's three types of Muslims, those who are in prison, those who are on their way to prison and those who aren't really practicing. Well, if you're a radical Islamist in a Western democracy, that's a fair description. Yeah. And committed. So, I mean, what was he like? What was that, you know, sitting down with him? I mean, what was that? What was that like? Well, like you, that was the most fascinating interview. He and the CIA director. Sure. But I was so fascinated by this character because most radical Islamists or especially if they have any kind of public facing ministry or pronouncements in the West, they're doing a lot of hiding and lying. And so Choudhury was such he was so refreshing because he's a fundamentalist and I'm a fundamentalist. So I understand this guy, but he's honest. Yeah. And because like you and I, he's so bound by his scriptures. Right. Right. So he is he adheres to them. He's not ashamed of them. And he's a thinker and he's laid his life out according to them. So most most Islamic leaders in the West, if they're radicalized, they are lying a lot purposefully, strategically lying, which is all right within the religion. That's part of the religion. You do that. That's called that's part of warfare. So he's just honest. So it was so refreshing. And I get on the phone with him and I and I can tell right away this guy is used to just fighting with people. Yeah. And I get on and I say, I just want to tell you how much I respect you. I said, so first of all, I'm a fundamentalist and you're a fundamentalist. And so I understand you and I understand your thinking and your worldview. You know, we we have different sources. We have different conclusions, but I I really respect you. So he doesn't know what he's like. Whoa. And then it's a completely different tone. And so he goes for me, he's just ready to box and we get into a deeper and more interesting conversation. And then, yeah, the end I leave. I pivot to the spiritual and I go into evangelism as we talked about in our previous. Yeah. You know, I want to share the gospel. And that was a that was fascinating. So give a little bit. Yeah. Give a little bit more on that. I mean, how did he respond by the time? Because I really did love the way you started the interview. Yeah. Right. It was, you know, hey, I really do respect you. And I think it it allowed me as I was reading through that. It allowed me to identify with him in ways that I don't think I would have otherwise. Yeah. You know, like he he spoke and said things. I mean, even just that little quip of I think there's three types of Muslims, those who are in prison, those who are going to prison and those who aren't really practicing. It's like I could hear a Christian say that as well. Radical Christian in a fundamentalist Islamic country. Right. You could absolutely hear them say that. And so, you know, I'm sitting there sitting like, wow, he's got the same sort of commitment that I do to my faith. And it just really helped me understand him better, I think. Yeah. Not agree with him, but understand where he's coming from. Do that. So how did the pivot? Yeah. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. And to have a heart of compassion too. These are people that with their best effort are trying to find God. Now, somebody came in front of them and said, I have a message from God. And here's his message and here's his teachings. So and they're trusting him. And they believe Muhammad to be like Jesus. And lots of them, the masses of Muslims don't really know who Muhammad was. They don't really know who they think he's like Jesus. And so whatever he says goes, but it brings compassion and it brings identity and understanding. And I just have a heart. I have a heart for the radical Muslim and imagine them blowing themselves up and what happens next. What do they experience in the spiritual world and where they go? And they're like the deception. They're just deceived. But the Lord has a heart for them. Did you find, I mean, well, I want to go to how did he respond to your evangelistic efforts? Right. That would be my first thought. And, you know, I'm not

It was Judaism, it was Christianity, and the pagan religions all melded together. And so, but there's a lot of Old Testament in there. And he actually totally screwed it up, and he took a lot of abuse from the Jews of the day because they would laugh at him because he didn't know what he was doing. He didn't know what he was talking about. And so he ended up hating the Jews and started to kill them. But I said, You've really hung your hat on this guy's peg, right? And why is it? And, you know, because he's the prophet of God and the scriptures are perfect and they're amazing. What a witness they are. I said, Okay. I said, But now let's look at the, he was a prophet, right? Okay. And because he wasn't, he wasn't God's son. He was a prophet in a long string of prophets. Very, very different than what any other prophet before him, what you saw in the Bible, very different. Is that fair? I mean, he was, and this is a longer conversation, but I started to be more honest with him. I said, Well, he was very violent. And I said, I'm not saying that. I'm just looking at what's in the Hadiths, you know, what's in the Quran. And he killed many. He led 27 battles or something. And what he did with the victims and the female victims, you know, I said, This guy is so different. Does that resonate with you? So anyways, the more I did that, you know that game where someone's talking to you and you're, I got a, we're having interference. You gotta get off. No lie. I call him back. We had a lot of problems connecting after that. He was done. He was done. That is hilarious. Well, I wonder, so as you're sitting and talking with this guy and then you have interviews with other folks, like, you know, your second chapter, I believe, is, I can read it right here, from the gentleman from the Watchman, Robert Spencer. And he talks about this broad overview. He gives an overview of Islam and his perceptions of it. Did you find a lot of concordance between, like, his treatment of Islam and what you found out when you spoke with Anjem? Yeah, and James, this is the crazy thing. It didn't matter who I spoke to. I can speak to the radical Muslim. I can speak to just the fundamentalist Muslim, the Muslim, the apostate, the converts, the feminists, the Jews, the non-religious Jews. It all resonates. There's a commonality in all of there. It was mind-blowing. And when you pull back, that's what I saw. But to this day, you know, Robert Spencer at the time, you know, this is, this is, you know, the twin towers come down, that era. And President Bush is constantly pronouncing that Islam is a religion of peace. Absolute strategy. He doesn't believe it, I'll bet you anything. He doesn't believe it. Strategy, I'll bet you, birthed out of CIA and State Department. Completely flawed. There's a reason they did it, if you understand Islam. There's a reason they did it. Completely flawed, though. And it just exacerbates the problem. But yeah, there was complete resonance and Spencer was extremely courageous, extremely outspoken. And to this day, I would agree with most of what he says. You know, he looks at Islam. He's a student of the Quran, Hadith, Mohammed. And the thing is, he would speak plainly and so many people wouldn't. You know, they were either afraid or they were cowed by the government. And, you know, today you get canceled. So, yeah. When you do have this dynamic, which you address in your first interview with Anjem, that there are certain parameters around which lying is okay. And so it's difficult even, you know, normally Christians wouldn't lie. We do apologetics instead of lying, right? We try to explain things and sort of fill in gaps maybe that we shouldn't be filling in on occasion. But we aren't really authorized to lie in defense of the faith or to advance the faith. But my understanding, at least based on the reading, is that there are certain circumstances in which Muslims are allowed to lie, almost encouraged to lie. Encouraged. From the scriptures. Yeah. Yeah. And so when you have people saying, oh, Islam is a religion of peace, that's got to be something good for Muslims who are going to come out and sort of ignore or lie about what their religion really teaches. Is that kind of how that functions? Yes. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. And Anjam himself would say this. He's like, look, most of my compatriots are lying. And you already know that. If you've studied this issue and you've followed these guys, there's one set of pronouncements in English to the West. And when they're speaking in Arabic back home or to their audiences, completely different. And there you get the unfiltered one. Or you look at even the quieter writings, you know, where it's not going to show up. They're not planning on showing up on the Internet. Very violent. And it's not an aberration. That's the thing. You know, Muhammad, Islam, it gained territory by the sword. So Christianity and Islam are the same. We both have a worldview that the whole world needs to come into submission to God. Yeah. And but what did Jesus, what was the methodology, you know? And it's like Jesus said this world is so lost and everyone, if they're trying to get to God, is trying to do it through law and trying to be good enough. And he said, that's not good enough. I'm going to die for your sins. You must go out and tell them there's a payment for their sins. They can be free and they can find, they can restore what was lost in the fall, right? The communion and the eternity and the safety in your eternal question and the presence that we're so missing. But it all starts with telling them about me. And what do we see with him in that incarnation, just the lamb, not the lion. We saw the lamb. Well, this is quite different with Muhammad. Muhammad for 10 years was proselytizing. First of all, he started having, he wasn't sure what they were. He was, he, you know, let's just call them visions or something. He was having some kind of interaction and he thought he was possessed by a demon. And he tells his wife, no, you are a prophet of God. This is from the Lord. Oh, okay. And so for the next 10 years, he's trying to gain a following. Yeah. Doesn't really get anywhere. I think after 10 years, he had 150 followers. So at that point, he has a new pronouncement from God. He has a new revelation from God. And that is that we can go on jihad. We can forcibly conquer. We can use the sword. We can take over those who oppose us. We can take their homes, their daughters, their wives, do what with them, do with them what we want. And you can imagine who that drew and what happened. So it's like now, and not only is it allowed, it's encouraged and prescribed. And even in the Quran, it might be the Hadiths. I think it's the Quran. It says, he says, you know, I know you don't understand this. You may be uncomfortable with this, but you have to trust this is the way of Allah and you must do this. So at that point, his following began to explode and Islam expanded by the sword. Oh, my gosh. And it conquered the Middle East first, goes into North Africa. And then when it goes east and goes towards India, you can read the historians, the secular historians. You can read the accounts of the Muslim conquerors and the millions, hundreds, maybe a hundred million killed, murdered in India. It expanded by the sword. And so when, because I know you talked with Dr. Ahmed Mansoor. Yeah. Who is a Muslim reformer. Correct. Yeah. You know, so there's a sense in which I'm just trying to sort of contextualize this even for myself. Right. Because I can remember one of my students asking me, hey, what's up with all the violence in the Old Testament? Right. You know, you have Israel coming against these other nations. They're going to throw the Canaanites out. And I said, you know, there is a difference between what we see in the Old Testament and what we see in the New Testament. In the Old Testament, we see a very national or a nationally oriented means of witness. Right. The very structure of it is just national. And so as you're going in and you're sort of.

Having combat with other nations, you're looking at the covenant community versus non-covenant communities. And if we just think about the way that God uses nations, even as we see in the Old Testament, sometimes they're instruments of punishment, other times they're instruments of restoration, like we can sort of get that around our heads. Part of the reason that Christians aren't called to violence today is because it's difficult to tell who's a Christian, right? And so, you know, we don't dominate through national war or anything like that, because we're not that sort of a nation. We're a peaceable people trying to make disciples and bring people under the authority of Jesus Christ. Is that sort of what a Muslim reformer might do with some of the violent origins of Islam? Like trying to reform towards something that's a little bit more palatable and a little bit more principled, as opposed to active within today's world? Well, and here's the trick. So let's get back to Dr. Mansoor in just a minute. But here's the trick. So one of the other gentlemen I interviewed, and he was an apostate. He had left Islam. He wasn't a Christian. But he said, look, the problem with Islam is that with any new generation of followers, you've always got, there's two sides to Islam. And he said, there's the, what was, it was like an elephant, huge, massive, and decorated, and imposing and amazing. But then there's the tusks. And those tusks are the violence that's encoded within there, within the Quran and the Hadiths. So he said with any new generation, there are going to be people, the fundamentalists will adhere to those. And there have been waves of great fundamentalism with jihad. And we're kind of in the third wave historically, if you look back through history. So that's the problem that's always there. So Dr. Mansoor, and he is a scholar. He is a Muslim scholar and educated at the most prestigious university, the Muslim university in the world. Absolute scholar. So what he was saying, though, through research was, you know, with the Hadiths, so there's the Quran, which was given by God to Muhammad. Not sure who wrote it down, but anyways, given by God to Muhammad. And then there's the Hadiths. Now, the Hadiths are kind of like the Book of Acts, okay? So it's, here's what happened in Muhammad's life. Here are stories about him. But as a scholar, he would, he would look at the historicity of these things and the veracity of these things. And he's like, look, a lot of these were written 300 years. They're legendary. They're 300 years afterwards. They cannot be relied on to the point where we're taking lives based on those Hadiths. We can't do that. Well, the problem is with that, lots of people within Islam would say, you're evil and we need to kill you. So, and it points out a massive need within Islam is that they need to go through a reformation. And Western governments need to have this as an ideal instead of the stupid pronouncement of Islam as a religion of peace and canceling those who say otherwise. They need to say, listen, there is radical Islam and then there's Islam. And we need to confront, and we need to confront and find out, where do you stand, sir, as a Muslim? What side do you lay, where do you lay your hat? And where do you lay down in which bed at night? And if you're, and then pin them down and then watch their messaging and expose. So we need to confront and expose and be an activist and push towards a reformation is the only way to modernize. So, you know, in the past, it's interesting because in the past, you know, since the 70s, you know, what's protected, what's fueled this massive rise of Islamic terrorism and radicalism is the wealth of the world flowing into the Middle East. Well, that's slowing and we look ahead to the future of where things are going and the world is going to largely get off oil. So it's going to be interesting. That's what, that's what fueled this whole thing. So it'll be interesting to see where things go. So just so I understand you correctly, there's the Hadiths are still part of, they'd almost be like our church fathers, let's say, or would they be considered part of the sacred scripture? No, it is sacred. So there's the Quran and then there's the Hadiths. Now the Hadiths are the church fathers or it's really still about Muhammad. So it's largely, it's the book of Acts. The book of Acts, historically, though, we could pin it down. It was written right afterwards, right? Yeah. These were written literally a lot of them hundreds of years later. So as a scholar, he just raises his hands and say, guys, does anybody know this? You know, I study this for a living, right? You can imagine the reaction. And as opposed to viewing it all like the book of Acts, where we sort of know that it's a more recent document and that there's a cohesive timeframe within which all this comes about. So there's a historical verifiability or veracity that brings with it. The Hadiths are ancient, but not contemporary with the Quran. So many of them. And so many of them are contradictory. Yeah. This is known within Islam. Very contradictory to the point that they had to come up with a system to say that the, you know, the, the latter verses abrogate. They, they cancel the earlier verses because God's revelation came in pieces and over time. And so the last revelation supplants the first because God changes his mind. You know how that goes. Yeah. So, but that's the system within, within Islam. But these, a lot of these verses, especially in the Hadiths, there's a whole bunch of contrariness. And so he's saying, look, part of the reason for that is this problem with when they were written. They're not reliable. So he's sort of trying to push back to the Quran. Would that be fair to say? And sort of leave the Hadiths as more of a, you know, almost deuterocanonical, we might call them. Maybe that would be fair. Yeah. Okay. And, but again, when it's accepted that both of these books are sacred, anybody who comes and even a scholar, he's, he's a Muslim. He's not a Christian. He's not, he's not a secular. He's a Muslim, but you can imagine how he's treated. So, yeah, not well, I'm sure. Yeah. He's from the devil. And so getting that, that sort of area of reform, when he's talking about reform, what he's really talking about is teasing out a lot of the violence, sort of cutting off the tusks, if you will, if we go back to the elephant analogy and allowing Islam to be something that is more peaceable within the overall sort of warp and woof of the world. I think that would be his hope. And like I said, in the end, he's a Muslim scholar. So I think he would still say the Quran needs to be adhered to. And that's the only problem. There's still enough violence in the Quran. There's still enough there that's pretty bad, but the Hadiths much more so because it details all the battles, all the things he was doing, he being Muhammad. Um, but still you'd have a, a much simpler task if it was, look, let's mainly look at the Quran. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I, uh, I've heard of both these things, the Quran and the Hadiths, but I didn't really understand the relation between the two. And so that's really quite helpful. Um, as you, as you look at then kind of let's transition to the CIA, the former CIA director that you talked to, um, I would not envy him his job ever. I'm sure it was fascinating, but I mean, this had to be like beyond complex, right? And so what's he thinking as he sort of goes through and is looking at Islam as, um, I, I assume he still looks at it as a religion, but he's also got to look at it as sort of a political threat in some ways, right? Very much so. I mean, what he did was he, you know, and he would, he would very much have the long game in mind. Yeah. And, and in that, when I interviewed him, we had pretty much, we had beaten the Soviets and it was, it was the long game that did it. Um, and it was a long strategy that, that was worked over decades. So he kind of had the same approach and it's, um, uh, but that's where some of where I picked up and began to understand. And you have to understand the intelligence community and state department and the interaction between the two and Islam as a religion of peace. That's where my, I just can't tell you what mistake I think it is. Again, there's a reason they do it. We can get into that. Um, but he very much had the long view. And so it's just like dealing with the Soviets. We're going to deal with it over time. And really the what's, what's going on is they're trying to create a separation between, uh, the radicals and the masses. And it's not a completely bad strategy. That's what's going on with Islam as a religion of peace. And so, yeah, look at ISIS in Iraq. So they said, you know, we're going to follow, we're going to behead. You know where that comes from? That comes from the books, the scriptures, their church. And, um, so they're fulfilled.

In a very violent, pure way, what's going, what they're being told to do. Now, most Muslims have no idea. They're like the simple Christian out there that's a Sunday Christian, and they don't read much, and they don't really read the Bible, they don't study, and they don't really know what's going on. They don't know who Muhammad is. So when they see that, lots of them left Islam. They said, if that's Islam, I don't want any part of it. And then others who's like, well, where is this coming from? And there's evangelists out there that says, this is coming from the scriptures. Here's the scriptures, and here's what Muhammad did. And again, I remember talking to a convert from Islam, and he had been a radical, and he had had a long trajectory into radicalism. And he looked back and he said, the deeper I got into Islam, the worse of a human being I became because you're called more and more to do things you're very uncomfortable with, but are harmful to other people. And there's the lying, and then the attacks, and all in the name of God. But it's playing with your conscience. So your conscience can get seared, and you could just say, this is the way of God, I do it. And that's where most of the radicals are. But this guy, you know, the Lord was rescuing him, and his conscience was so bothered, and he's like, what is going on? I don't understand this. But that is coming. What ISIS was doing was coming from the scriptures, and that's where we need to confront. That's the different strategy rather than Islam as a religion of peace. It's like, Islam can be practiced as a religion of peace, and that's the better way. And you, sir, what are you going to practice? Now, what do you do with these verses? Confront, pin them down, and push for that reformation. One of the things I found really interesting in that interview with the CIA director was he talked about the need to confront these things head on. You were talking about the perception of Islam, I think, in America, just the perception of Islam more generally. And he actually cites Orwell, George Orwell, which I thought was pretty cool. And essentially, he says, we can't deal with this until we get into the straight talk about it. We can't continue to call, use Islamophobe to apply to anyone who critiques Islam. And man, I mean, you fast forward and you talk about a little bit of a prophetic utterance. Fast forward to today, and we're just ignoring these things left and right. How serious would he get with that? I mean, as far as sort of disseminating the right information to not only in the American people, I suppose at this point, but sort of the global public to say, look, here's where radical Islam begins, and moderate Islam, or here's where radical Islam ends and here's where moderate Islam begins. You know what I'm saying? Like, how did he parse any of that out? Did you get a sense for that? I did not. He didn't get into that kind of fine detail. But you can see where he's a deep thinker, and he can see the problem with the strategy out there. And again, where it kind of points to that confronting and that exposing. And what is the dark hate? The dark hate's the light. Let's bring light onto this and let's show the masses what's going on. And so that's how you marginalize. So this whole thing of the religion, Islam is a religion of peace was a strategy to marginalize the radicals. Did not work at all. It lulled many into, you know, even look at the recent attack or the thwarted attack with Alexander Scott Mercurio. He's out on the web. So what does he know? Islam is a religion of peace. It's a good thing. That's a choice for me to consider spiritually. Now, if he had been told it is very violent, if you practice a hundred percent what's taught is very violent. And if he had that going in, you'd have a lot less converts and you would have a greater separation. But yeah, he was a deep thinker. The CIA director, deep thinker. And you're just kind of wowed having a conversation with this guy, just thinking about the life he has led and what he knows and what he can say and can't say. Yeah, and I found that to be really compelling. And I also found his comments regarding, I think the confusion around concepts like jihad that are put out by the Muslim Brotherhood, right. To be really fascinating because, you know, he talks about, I think there's that threefold sense. Like one is like it's spiritual and self-reflection, what we might call sanctification, right. Like a disciplining of one's own self to live according to the teachings of our holy book. It's an internal spiritual struggle. Right. And then you had a defensive, you know, sort of, you know, if somebody's attacking you, can you defend them? Islam is attacked, yes. Right. And then you had sort of the normal things that we would think of in terms of, you know, terrorist attacks and those kind of things. You think that's strategic lying. That's that sort of reframing it such that it's more palatable and even a radical group could pass off acts of violence as coming from radical Muslims. Well, the radical Muslim would say to the West, the typical radical Muslim, the violent Islamist, even if he's a theologian or a mosque leader, what he's going to be saying publicly is that you've got it all wrong. Poor silly Westerner who doesn't understand Arabic or Islam. No, jihad is an internal struggle. Now he's turning around and saying, if you're a follower, you've got to live for jihad. It's do we want to, if you're a follower of Jesus, will you stand? Will you disciple? Will you win? That's in the end, we are called to bring the world to Christ, not through violent means. Islam is called through violent means. So if you're serious, you have got to be in the war and you are at war, but we're going to lie strategically, especially when we're in hostile territory. That's part and parcel. It's done absolutely, you know, full face. They know what's going on. They have one message in English, another message for Arabic or those back home. So, I mean, it's this whole issue is really, it can't have been helped by the amount of disinformation and misinformation we have the ability to disseminate these days. Right. I mean, I can remember when 9-11 happened and hearing, you know, the conversations about what really is the essence of Islam. And, you know, what you're referencing, the idea that Islam is a religion of peace. I can remember those conversations. Now it just has to be sort of 20 times worse. I mean, the amount of disinformation about this out there has to just be astronomical. Are you seeing that? Like, as you sort of go out and continue to interact internationally, do people have a sort of a confusion about what Islam actually is? You know, on the one hand, there's probably a broader awareness now, but maybe it's very shaped by your political viewpoint. So if you're on the left, you're going to be very reactionary and think, for instance, what I'm saying, again, you have a chip on your shoulder. You're a bigot. You're hateful. You're an Islamophobe. And it's like, it's just a lot of name-calling, but ad hominem attacks. And the only thing I'd say to people is like, I'm honestly, I'm not that political. I used to be political. I'm not that political. Like everybody, I have a political viewpoint, but this is not, this is spiritual. So I would tell anybody, go study. But yes, it's, so on the one hand, there's probably broader awareness. And at the other, on the other hand, what you're referencing is there's more craziness because everyone's crazy politically now. There's no, there's no discourse. Right. There's no, let's debate back and forth and wrestle with each other. And then, and, you know, that's how, that's democracy. That's what thinking people do. It's no, let's cancel you. So, I mean, look at what happened with the Bishop stabbing in Australia. So a radical Muslim kid stabs a Bishop and there's a video of it circulating. And what does the Australian government do? Yeah. They say they come against Facebook, Instagram and X or Twitter. And they say, we're going to find you. We're going to come against you legally unless you take down that material. You know, and I don't know what Facebook did. I don't know what Instagram did. But Elon was like, go fly a kite. He's like, this is, this is the problem. We just need to be open. Why don't, let's let information flow. Let the people understand and stop getting tricked and stop, you know, being propagandized. Let's let people, that's the whole thing of the internet, that there is access to information. And everyone's a big boy and girl and we can let them grow up instead of the old ways of controlling. Let's control their thinking and work our strategy when there were, you know, when there were three channels on the news and X number of newspapers, it was a lot easier to control things from, you know, from the governmental point of view. Very interesting. But I wanted to talk through because you, you did talk to a couple of other, I think, really interesting characters. I mean, everybody you talked to was interesting, but a couple kind of caught my eye.

So I'm going to pivot and get into the gentleman who was the son of the Hamas leader. Yeah. I mean, always relevant. I mean, Hamas has been around for as long as I can remember, at least. But I mean, particularly today, we're seeing a lot about Hamas in the news. And so what did you learn from him that maybe you didn't know or didn't fully understand about Hamas? Yeah, I think it was more in the confirmation category, the conversation. So it was fascinating and it's from an insider. You know, this is the son of one of the Hamas founders, you know? And so it's like, wow. And it's like, no, you don't have it wrong. Let me speak from the inside. So he just, you know, everything you already know and you've heard and learned, he's like, yes, that's correct. Yes, that's exactly what we were doing. Yes, you know, that is a correct strategy you're seeing. That methodology is, yes, you're seeing that correctly. So it was a whole bunch of confirmation and, you know, you've already had that over and over and over, but there it's coming from the source, so to speak. Yeah, it's really interesting because he has no particular reason to lie. Like, it's not to his benefit at all to come in and sort of advance a narrative that would go against Hamas. And he did convert to Christianity. How did that even come about? And you know what? I don't remember the details. It's been so long. I'm trying to remember the details. I don't have it. Yeah, it, I mean, I find it so fascinating that even within the grip of what he describes as an ideological movement, right? I mean, he says if you're going to break Hamas, you have to break the ideology. That it is sort of hopeful, right? Because, I mean, I think we have a lot of ideological capture going on in our own world right now. And to sit back and say, no, here's this guy who was next in line, you know, would have been, I think you described him as Palestinian royalty, right? Like he would have been that level of person within Hamas. And so for this person to set that aside and go, whoa, I, I think this whole Jesus thing might be it and convert to Christianity. It's just crazy. Man found a treasure in the field and he went back and hid it and he went and sold everything he had and joyfully to purchase that treasure. So, you know, that makes perfect sense to me. I didn't grow up as a Christian, so it's like, but yeah, it's just like in the end, that's conversion, right? It's like, that's what, that's what the Lord is winnowing out in people's hearts so often that the process, you know, for me, it was, you know, this 10-year process of what will you trade for me? And he's waiting for the answer of everything. And I'm like, I'm going to give you this. No, let me give you this. No. And when you, when you're ready to sell all you have, you know, so, and then it's, then it's absolutely joyful. So, but yes, it's telling, right, when you see it. And these guys are insanely wealthy. The leadership is insanely wealthy because they've stolen for decades. They're billionaires, the leaders of Hamas. Yeah. With that money squirreled away, you know, in the Middle East. So he did walk away from a lot, but again, the treasure. It's interesting, you know, one of the things I wanted to kind of explore was, I think our position in the United States is sort of enviable because of our geographic distance from the rest of the world, or at least from a lot of these problems. You know, yes, we stay aware. Yes, we're involved. But the reality is that this isn't happening next door to us. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? 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And so it feels to me like it would almost be easier to pull the wool over our eyes than with some of these other countries. And one of the places you sort of hit on this is with the interview with the daughter of a Somali warlord. And so I'm wondering if her story, and I know you don't really cover this in the book, but I'm just wondering, you know, do you, in your experience internationally, do you find people who sort of have a more negative reaction to Islam than maybe we would even in the States simply because they're bright enough to see what's going on right in front of them? Like that narrative just isn't getting to us. Yeah, that's well said, I think. And she, you know, this is a brilliant woman who was really going places, but there was no outlet for her. And her father is a warlord. And so, you know, her job is to get married and have babies and just to take and listen to our teaching on Islam and regurgitate it. But again, deep, deep thinker and so courageous. So I don't know. There was just a path for her and it led out of Islam. And as a deep thinker, like you said, she's right there. And so she can see the complexity. She can see the falsehoods. She can, she knows what it is. She doesn't have to winnow out what is the truth. She can see the truth, doesn't like it and walked away from it. But it's, I think, much easier for those who don't get this varnished completely false translation of what Islam is. It's like, let's just deal with the reality again, over and over. That's why I say it's like, it must have a reformation. We must be honest. Let's be honest with the populace. I mean, what they're worried about, what the government is worried about, and the reason they came up with this strategy, this is my two cents, is that Islam, what happens is if you attack it head on, they tend to close ranks and then fight in mass. Where normally you have the Sunnis and the Shiites, the Sunnis being most of the Islamic world and the Saudis. And then you have the Shiites, which is Iran and their client states. So most of the time, they're very happily killing each other and hating each other. They absolutely despise each other. And so what they're trying to do is not hit Islam head on and to be gentle and try to create a separation between the radicals and the more peaceful folk. But again, it's just a very flawed system. It's like, I think it's better to tell the truth, let the chips fly and then that puts the radicals on the defensive and it puts the those who are close to being radicals on the defensive to say, if I'm going to do this in the West, I've got to change my ways. So because it's radical Islam, obviously, is completely incompatible with the West and with democracy. Yeah. Yeah, it would seem so. Why is it just out of curiosity that I know there's the difference between the two groups, right? Sort of like the Protestant denominations, although I think maybe we don't hate each other. But what is the why do they sort of war within each other? Do you know that? Well, I would say, who are they following? What is driving them spiritually? I think you understand, right? So at a very fundamental level, you're not you're not asking down there. You're asking farther up. There is a division on the following and who was to reign over Islam. And basically back near the death of Muhammad, it was like, no, this is the rightful leader. No, this is the rightful leader. And then they parted and were massive enemies ever since. OK, gotcha. So it is it's not dissimilar to some of the things that have happened in history in other places. I mean, I think of Alexander Alexander the Great's generals, you know, and the divisions that that empire, those kind of things. It's like, who gets to take over all this fun stuff? You bet. There was a lot of stuff to grab. I mean, wealth beyond imagining because, again, when they're out conquering, they have to send back tribute, right? You have to send it back up the line. So you're an entrepreneur. You can go, you know, kill people and get massive amounts of gold and land and women and everything and slaves. And you can keep I can't remember the percentage, but then you have to send some back. But the wealth was unbelievable. Yeah. And do you see, you know, I mean, you mentioned Saudi Arabia and it's it's kind of it's a running theme throughout the book. I mean, Saudi Arabia, I think sort of it's an interesting country in my mind, right? In so many ways, it flies completely under the

You bet. Is that the right way to think about it? Yeah. So let's go back to the wealth of the world started to flow to, it wasn't just the Saudis, it was the Saudis and the Gulf states, but the Saudis were the big takers. They have the lion's share of the oil. And they own Mecca. They are the keeper of Mecca. They consider themselves to be the guardians of Islam. And so then with that wealth, they were, what they did was they funded radical political movements, radical Islamist political movements, radical Islamist theology. They built mosques everywhere in the world and installed radical mosque leaders, and they shamed the moderates everywhere. They exposed and shamed the moderates. They created a massive divide, and the radicals won. And there used to be a lot more flavor out there. There were a lot more flavors and types and expressions of Islam, so they really killed that off. They also started many, many terrorist groups. That's why you saw the explosion of radical Islamic violence starting back in the 70s and more and more. So that's what I kind of... You kind of fall down the rabbit hole, and I'm trying to figure out what's going on now because they have a reformer king, younger guy, I think Western educated, so then I would just love to know what's going on in his brain. He is a reformer, so it'll be interesting to see what he's doing. So, and you know, he looks to Dubai. Dubai looked ahead and said, the oil is going to run out, and we're gonna create a world-leading city so that people will come here when the oil runs out, and now they're pretty much tapped out. The oil revenue is not enough. They're in serious straits. The Saudis are now trying to do the same. And again, once the oil runs out, once this massive conversion to solar and wind is played out at a deeper level because the cost curve of solar goes to zero almost, so they know, and they've heard, and the experts have told them this is where things are going and their revenues have already been affected. We've already seen peak oil. We've already seen peak oil consumption. So I think what he's doing is a response, but they're trying to, they're following the Dubai model and modernizing even with women and universities. So, you know, it's gonna take decades, but it leaves me a little hopeful. It's such a strange dichotomy though, you know, when you think about it because it feels like the lack of modernization, the unwillingness to sort of buy into globalization, let's say, serves their more fundamentalist Islamic beliefs, right? It makes it easier in some ways to control that and to make sure that the community stays religious. Now opening it up to different levels of education, different customs, different everything, you know, they're running the risk of... I mean, that reformation will happen whether they like it or not. It's almost the best way to put it. Yeah, right? I think so. Yeah. So, I mean, the oil really has allowed them to isolate themselves and retain a more radical stance simply because they weren't dependent on anything other than selling oil to other nations. But as soon as you get into tourism, you probably need to be somewhat welcoming. And like, yeah, I'd like to go to Saudi Arabia. I mean, Dubai seems like a really cool place. I'd never been there, but it seems very welcoming and open and like not scary, except for the floods. No, for, yeah, for the most part in, unless you're a complete hedonist, and then you might get in trouble, but... Right. Yeah. And the Saudis have looked at that, and now they're spending massive amounts of money to buy the same thing, where Dubai is looking over their shoulder like we're in trouble because of what the Saudis are doing. But to your point, though, this is going to be a modernizing force. And again, their king, I have to, with what he's done, he's Western educated. And so he's probably not a true believer, but still, you're, even as a king, you're a politician. So you have to keep the conservatives happy to whatever degree while you're modernizing. So you're saying one thing to them and other things, you know, to other constituents. But it just looks positive in the end. And like you said, as the oil runs out, they're gonna be forced to have to be a more modern nation, which means you have to get along. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you can't, you can't be isolated anymore. To some degree, I mean, I think that's part of what happened with, you see this arc in a lot of different places, but I think we're seeing in the United States right now. We're almost having the same problem as we've had more and more pluralism built into the United States versus when we were founded. That increase in pluralism requires adjustments that weren't necessarily even contemplated. They may have been, they may have been thought through at the beginning, you know, just sort of like, well, what do we do with? Yeah, but they couldn't have ever thought through all the permutations that pluralism was going to bring. And so we're at this really tense point. And it just seems to me that what you're describing with Saudi Arabia and the modernization there, you don't get them to this point that we're in in a very similar way. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you think back to the founders, just to touch on what you're pointing out. You know, the founders were, they were looking at religious expression and the sects warring against each other. And that's SEC T, but different sects of Christianity warring against each other. And as well as a lot of them were deists. They weren't Christians, you know. And so that had to be protected. But Judaism, microcosmic small and all the hate. Yeah, pretty minor. Yeah, you know, so. And then with massive immigration, yeah, everything changes. But the beauty is what they created, you know, the system they created is flexible enough and it's, it was brilliant, not perfect by any means, but brilliant. Absolutely. And what do they say about democracy? It's a, it's a terrible form of government. It's just better than the rest. Yes, that's right. Well, fascinating stuff, man. I mean, any kind of last thoughts on this? I mean, as Christians are looking out at their Islamic neighbors, right? I mean, just like you did in your initial interview and trying to share Christ with them. Any thoughts on how we might go about sort of engaging our Muslim neighbors, really helping them to see and question, or maybe begin to question Muhammad, their faith, those kind of things, and draw their attention over to Jesus Christ. Yeah, and the first thing, like we talked about last time, just that the orientation to reach out, what did Jesus call? You know, and all around us, we, we are after the, we are post-Titanic sitting in, in, you know, the boat and all around us are people in the freezing water without life preservers, and they're going down. And so the Muslim is, has been captured, okay. You, you know this, they have been captured. That's the way we see them. And most of them are the most lovely people. You're not going to run into radicals and all you're going to run into is lovely people that are very relational and are lonely because they're here in the States and, and would be blessed to have a friendship with an American. And that gives you, that gives you great entree into their life. So you do the relational and then everything opens from there. But you start with the relational, start with the love, you know. That's what Jesus does, and when they see that, that's what's missing. All they know is law. All they know is adherence to the law and they don't even, you can't, in Islam, you can't even have certainty with where you're going. Muhammad said he had no certainty to where he was going. And so when they see Jesus, and the first one is to see your love through them, don't just stop there. You bring love and truth. But to start with that love, it's life changing for them. And they see Jesus and he is, we're too used to, we're too used to him. We're like an old married couple. Even if you're a convert, we're too used to him. We don't understand how, how startlingly beautiful he is. And they'll see him and so many will come to Christ. So reach out, love on these people. It's very cool. I mean, I had a conversation with a lady who does ministry with military wives and families. And she gave very much the same advice when I asked her, you know, how do we go about caring for military families? And in some ways, military families have something in common with Muslims. They're often displaced. They very seldom have a community. They know orders, right? They have to sort of follow that. And her, her advice was very similar. She's like, don't discount the small acts of love that you can do for these people and a big, the exponential way that it could very well pay off in their lives. Like giving a military wife, you know, a, you know, an hour break from her kids to go even just do the grocery shopping without them is a huge blessing. That's a huge, yeah. Yeah. And, and so I was like, I just hear the resonance and I think it's super important. And Jeff, I love this book.

I learned a lot reading it, and it definitely opened my eyes to what's going on on the Islamic side of the fence, and understanding how some of these dynamics are sort of playing in. I will say, just as sort of a last question, and I don't know whether you have thoughts on this, but as we think through that sort of modernization, what often is phrased as secularization, the movement that makes it more difficult to believe in God, there's a part of me that looks at this whole Islamic movement and says, yeah, moderating it would be a great thing, but I'm not sure what we're replacing it with is particularly good either. And I think there's something to be learned as we watch how the modernization is pressuring the Islamic world to change that we have to look back at ourselves and go, man, how has it pressured us to change? It's happening, right? We're losing our youth, right? So a whole bunch of lessons in right there, right? I would get your kids out of public school because they are being discipled 100% by everyone around them, extremely hostile towards Christianity. The environment that the government has set up, the school system is anti-Christian. I would get the kids out. But the biggest thing to do is we model it at home. We stick together. No matter how hard it is, we stick together. We provide an example. We live out Christianity. We don't say one thing and do another. And we teach the kids. Like we talked about this. I'm not a discipler, but I am teaching them all the time about what God is doing in my life, what he's saying, how he's correcting me. And then we're humble when we're wrong. We go ask forgiveness and we love. And that is the great antidote. And that is the great leader. Just like with those military wives and families, just like with those Muslim families, it's love. But we love and we lead with that. It's not discipline. It's not browbeating them into law and adherence, right? Showing them Jesus, who, again, we're the old married couple. We're too used to him. He's dazzling. He's dazzling. Lift him up and all will be drawn to him. I think that's a good place to end, man. I agree with you. I think sometimes we do get a little too familiar with Jesus and we forget that he's the one we're supposed to be pointing to. Like he's the one we're supposed to be pointing to glorifying. And we're drawing attention to. Yeah, we're really bad at it. And we need to get better at it. We need to get better at it and we need to be serious about it. I mean, I think that's the real trick. There's a way in which we can divert our attention to some of these other issues we see, but the reality is we need to keep our eyes on the ball and just recognize that Christ is the only solution. He's the only real solution to these problems, the only lasting solution to these problems. Everything else is just sort of a new turn in the road that's going to result in different breakages down the line, which I find sort of fascinating. But yeah, I love the book, Jeff. I love the work you do. Folks, check it out. It's Islam Uncensored. You can get it. I assume I got it on Amazon. It's probably available everywhere. And I'd also encourage you all to check out Persecution.org, Persecution.org. All the links will be in the show notes. And Jeff, just thanks for having you on again. This was a great conversation. Really appreciate you being here. You bet, James. Always love it. And hey, let's hang out for one second. I got to pick your brain on something. Sounds good. Well, before we do that, I'll close the episode out and say just thanks, everybody, for being here, and we'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Are you concerned about tensions in the Middle East? Do you wonder where we're currently at in the biblical timeline? Are we really in the last days? Hi, everyone. I'm Dr. Carl Muller with the Inside the Epicenter podcast. Every week, my co-host, best-selling author Joel Rosenberg and I answer those questions and more. You'll hear inside knowledge of our meetings with leaders at the highest levels of government in the U.S., Israel, and the Middle East, equipping you to filter the news with biblically sound insights. Find Inside the Epicenter on your favorite podcast app or go to joshuafund.com to listen and subscribe.