How Can the Church Play a Role in Government- Part 1

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. Today, I am back with Aline Francula, again, my friend and colleague. And we're going to be discussing, we're going to have one more discussion, probably one more this round. I can't imagine Christian nationalism goes away, but we're going to have one more discussion about the Neighborly Faith study that came out December 2023. And one of the statements with which those who are classified as Christian nationalist adherents this time strongly disagree. And so the statement is this, religion has no place in government. That's the statement with which Christian nationalists heavily disagree as opposed to any other group that this study sort of puts forward. So Christian nationalist sympathizers, they are less than 25% in agreement with that statement versus, let's say, Christian nationalist adherents are more than 50% in disagreement with that statement. And so you've got a pretty big spread even just between the two groups who actually are closest on the survey that they really, really disagree with religion has no place in government. So unlike our previous episodes where we've really looked at the statements that Christian nationalists strongly agreed with, this time we're kind of flipping the script and saying, why is it that they would disagree so strongly with this statement? So with that little introduction, I'll say welcome, Aline. Thanks for being back, man. Great to be back with you. It's snowed in in Portland, so I appreciate you taking the time. That's the best time to record a podcast when you're snowed in and snowed in. That's right. That's right. Any immediate thoughts about this? Again, you know, you've had the opportunity to sort of grow up internationally. And so America and American politics isn't really your first language, let's say. And so when you think about the relationship between religion and government, what kind of thoughts do you have here that might be relevant for an audience that has largely been in the United States for most of its existence? What I really appreciate about U.S., looking through a lens of the outsider or insider, somebody said that there's no such thing as a participant observer. You're either a participant or an observer. You can't be both, right? In this case, I think it's the unique cases in which I might be a participant observer where I'm an outsider and I'm also observing. So there are a few things that I really appreciated about American politics or about all this. One is the Americans don't talk about politics, but they talk about politics, which is really interesting. So they say publicly, we don't talk about politics, religion, and, you know, God in the public space. But in many ways, they do in many ways, right? One, two, I really appreciate the fact that to this day, I've seen a shift, which was concerning for me as an outsider on the fact that there's no more debate and there's no more discussion, right? So the marketplace in America has almost removed the ability to have a conversation. Let's actually hash it out. Let's have a conversation. It's either a debate or it's actually a one-sided, you are a hater, you are all this. That's it. There's no more conversation, no more dialogue. That is concerning to me because I think many things about faith have to be discussed and sometimes in the marketplace. I also love the fact that the Apostle Paul is one of the people that I look up to a lot in the teachings, was always in the marketplace, was always consumed with what was really happening in the marketplace. And he was not oblivious of Rome. He was not oblivious of Caesar. He really paid attention because he knew at any given time changes in the marketplace will impact, it would immediately impact faith. So, you know, if a Caesar comes and says, there's no more religion accepted in Rome, or Christians burn down Rome, all of a sudden you have a persecution of Christians in a matter of days. So I believe it's important. So when I look at religion in America, it is really different than almost any other place in the world. It's a unique place to have that. And I'll start with the concerning and then I'll go for positive. The concerning is the juxtaposition of the American culture with what faith is. One is saying that there's no such thing as an American, you know, religion, like one, you know, Christianity, even though the nationalists are claiming it to be, you know, a Christian nation. And we talked about that. But there's no such thing as that. Although America, the American culture wants to blend in in almost every faith in America and really capture it for itself. So that's the immediately that I can see as an outsider, some of the things that are happening, the discourse and some of the ways that are positioned, our position in the area of blurring the lines between what's faith and what's actually a culture in America. Yeah, and I think that's a really important point, man. And I appreciate you bringing it up because I think that blurring of the line between church and state is actually a biblical and theological problem. Let me ask you a serious question. 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And so, if we can look at Scripture and discern two separate entities, church and state, which I think we can. I mean, Romans 13, I think, makes it quite clear that there are governing authorities. That passage doesn't speak to state specifically, but there are governing authorities that God has appointed that are separate from the church. And the churches do have a specific sort of relationship with them based on the mutual authority of God. So in other words, because both sit under the authority of God, what Paul is telling the believers in Rome is, he's saying, look, the state is under God's authority. You're under God's authority. You're obeying God when you're obeying the state. Now, ultimately, when the state doesn't obey God, you're still obeying God. And so that can create friction and rub, right? But I think the state is not the church and the church is not the state. Now, I think one of the one of the interesting things that sort of, again, blurs that line between the two. And when we're looking at this statement, it's really specifically about religion. And so there's something to be said about the distinction between church and state. There's another thing to be said, I think, about religion and the state. So if we look at something like First Amendment, we have the establishment clause or the prohibition of the establishment of religion by the state. And then the free exercise of religion. What I find fascinating is that that clause doesn't preclude the state from doing religious sorts of things. And so even though they couldn't point to, let's say, you know, your Southern Baptist church down the street and say, we're establishing this as the national church. The United States can use and leverage religious language. It can pull in ceremony and ritual. And it can, in essence, create a civil religion. This is something that goes all the way back to like Rousseau. He posited that the government needed to have some sort of civil religion that would be broadly tolerant of almost any sort of belief system and would allow the governing authorities not to be subject to the clerics. And so, in other words, he didn't want the church to trump the state. He wanted the state to remain in charge. And to do that, he felt that there needed to be some sort of broad consensus about specific theological topics that would be sufficiently broad to cover all the world religions, but not necessarily preclude the exercise of those religions.

Now, Rousseau was interesting because he also said that religious tolerance was necessary. In other words, religions had to tolerate, right, what was going on with other religions. So as we look at this today, you know, Christianity is an exclusive religion. And what I mean when I say that is that we believe that, it's not that we just believe it, it's that God has revealed to us that the reality is the Bible is the authority, that Christ is the only way, and that all these other ways are providing false hope, that they are providing false teachings, and that Christianity is the only religion. Now, we are not militant about that, which I think is part of what Rousseau was concerned with. He didn't want one religion to be so militant that they started to try to take over and coerce people into behaving in a manner that was commensurate with their religion, as opposed to persuading them to come over to the side of their religion. Right? That's a big difference. And so, you know, the separation of religion and government, I think, is sort of problematic as we look at it because what you have is established religions, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, you know, all those sort of established religions. Then you also have what I would call secular ideologies, right? We've seen a number of writers argue that things like Critical race theory or the whole woke movement is religion-esque, or sufficiently analogous to religion that we might as well treat it like a religion, but it's not officially recognized as a world religion. And then you also have civil religion, which we most often ignore. We sort of leave that one alone because it feels very innocuous, right? And it feels accommodating of all faiths, and so when something is accommodating of all faiths, it doesn't feel like an enemy of any of those faiths. But the reality is, it kind of is. So, yeah, any thoughts or comments on that? Yes, I have a few observations. I actually really appreciate the excursion through the history of U.S. because I do think U.S., even though it's a relatively new country, I mean, 250 years, you know, I mentioned this, my hometown is from the 1500s. I spent some time in England, and when you are there, it's fascinating that you get a sense that England is an old, wise person, and America is a teenager, and they treat it like that. Like, America is like, basically the attitude is like, we've done that. You'll grow out of it, right? We've experienced that. But in many cases, America has done things that are unprecedented, and it's the reason that it's called the greatest experiment because it's done some things in the way that it's created a space. Somebody gave an example of how the socialism in Scandinavia and Norway is a good example of something that America should thrive for. And I argued significantly the fact that America is unprecedented because it has 192 nations living together with, I think, 192 religions coexisting in a way that is unprecedented because in Norway, you have 5 million people that are basically of the same belief, mostly. And even then, sometimes they have a hard time. So how do you do it? When I lived in Chicago, I was in a building apartment that had 400 apartments, and I think all the 192 nations were represented in that building, right? And you learn how to actually coexist really well. But learning the history of how America has had to learn about some things and put some things in place is really powerful. What I think is one observation that I have when you talk, I love the first you argued the idea of religion. What is religion? And if you go for how misunderstood it is. So when a Christian nationalist that identifies themselves as a Christian nationalist and then answers a survey, when they make the statement, I want religion to actually have a significant place in the government, I am quite certain they mean Christianity. And they're not thinking religion. Somebody, there was a conference one time on religious freedom, and somebody made the observation, you're here because you want Christianity or freedom, right? Not religion. Because if you truly want religious freedom, that would include you, that Buddhists next to you, the Islamic next to you would have the same religious rights as you would have right next to you in America. But they're not fully wrong being very careful with the statement because my understanding is that the word religion has a Christianity origin. And it initially meant, and Augustine, I think, argues with this heartily and says he was bothered by the use of the word religion because initially religion meant worshiping of God, basically a Christian God. But then it was used mostly for social relationships. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. And when people were using religion, they were using it mostly for social relationships. And I found that interesting that the word has evolved now all the way to millennials and Gen Zs. It would be interesting to see if there's such a thing as a Christian nationalist Gen Z. Right? And we need to explore, are there any such things as Christian nationalist millennials or Gen Zs? But I think when you ask a Christian nationalist Gen Z or a Gen Z about religion, they're fundamentally opposed to the concept. And church now, even the separation of church and state, I think there's a separation of church and generations. Gen Zs and even starting with millennials, they're having a hard time really identifying with what the church is trying to do in the marketplace and in the space. So it would be very curious to know, even from your perspective, how do you feel like we even define what a Christian nationalist is saying religion has to have an important role? Are they meaning Christianity? And if that's the case, that would make sense. That statement would make sense from a Christian nationalist perspective. I mean, I think within the Christian nationalist framework, you have to assume that they mean Christianity. And I think we have to read this statement in relation to some of the other statements that are correlated with what it means to be a Christian nationalist adherent, which include, you know, the true culture of the United States is fundamentally Christian. The federal government should declare the United States a Christian nation. Even things like public schools should allow teachers and coaches to lead or encourage students in Christian prayer. Even just that qualifier of Christian prayer, I think is really important. And so, yes, I believe that when we're looking at this statement, what people who are answering the survey have in mind, it almost has to be Christianity, where I would tend to, yeah, where I would tend to take some exception to this is that, you know, two things. Number one, if people think that Christianity should be involved in the government, there are mechanisms for Christianity to be involved in the government. Right. You can have Christians in office. You can elect them. You can advocate for Christian policies, let's say. And I use that term very loosely. What I mean by that is policies with which Christians would see an alignment between the policy and some biblical teaching. Right. So we've got the easy ones like no abortion. You know, I would I've said before, you know, Roe v. Wade was no, you know, was not good. Dobbs v. Jackson is not any better. It's a it's a political compromise and we can't pass that off as Christian. At most, it's conservative. It's certainly not Christian because all it does is it changes the governance structure that determines whether or not abortion is legal. It does not prohibit abortion. And so in those cases, what we're seeing there is we're seeing not a Christian instantiation of policy. Right. We're seeing a policy that might move, we think, maybe in the right direction. Right. Because some states are going to be.

it all together, or some states are going to curtail certain practices or what have you. But it is still not a Christian decision because the Christian decision and the only Christian decision is no abortion. So we've got to be careful with that language. But I think the idea of having religion involved in government here, what I would say the danger in my mind is that in joining forces with the state, when religion joins forces with the state, I have my doubts that the church is capable then of playing a different game. So let me explain it like this. We've all played Monopoly, probably. Monopoly is a fairly popular board game, and it doesn't matter whether you choose the thimble or the car as your game piece, right? The gameplay isn't affected by whether you are the car or the thimble. You're still playing Monopoly. And so once you decide to play Monopoly, it doesn't matter whether you're the car or the thimble. Now, the choices that you make while you're playing Monopoly are all within the context of Monopoly, right? Do I wanna get the light blue properties that are really cheap and put hotels on them super fast but make less money? Or do I wanna make the bet of trying to get the green properties on the other side of the board and the boardwalk park place so that if somebody lands on them, they're almost automatically bankrupt? Those are just choices, but they're all within the context of the same game. And so what I would argue is that when we're trying to weave religion into the state, what we're doing is we're denying religion the opportunity and specifically Christianity the opportunity to play an alternative game. We're forcing the church to play Monopoly when it could be playing chess or Catan or whatever, right? Instead, it's like, nope, the church needs to pull in and play Monopoly with the state. And I just think there's a lot of problems with that because if we're thinking about it from a discipleship perspective, discipleship is to hone our senses so that we see the world differently. We hear the world differently. We experience the world differently. And if all that difference is going to entail is whether or not we buy the light blue properties or boardwalk park place, I don't see what the big deal is. That's not a huge alternative. That's just a different strategy playing the same game. And that is not what the church is. The church is something more distinct than that. We are playing a completely different game. I think this is why in Ephesians 6, Paul says, we do not wrestle against flesh and blood. You know, we wrestle against the powers and principalities in spiritual realms. That is a different game. That's not a different strategy. It's a different game. And so that to me is where some of this runs aground. And part of the reason it's uncompelling, to get back to your comment about Gen Z, I think part of the reason it's uncompelling to younger generations is because all they see is the choice between the car and the thimble. Yes, yes. Who cares? Give me the thimble. Give me the car. We're all playing the same game. In other words, we've made it so that religion doesn't matter. Yes, yes. At the very least, it doesn't matter. Yes, it is. Yeah, in such a significant way or a sufficient way that it would be compelling to people, right? And so if I can hold conservative beliefs and not worry about going to church on Sundays, why wouldn't I? It seems like an unnecessary trip. And so I think the church just has some work to do here, but this statement, religion has no place in government, I would actually tend to be in stronger agreement than disagreement with it. Not in the sense that I think Christians shouldn't participate in government. I don't have any issue with Christians holding office. I don't have any issues with Christians voting or any of that, right? But I do think that the two realms, in order to remain distinct, religion cannot play the political game on the world's terms. And I think that's a crucial point on the world's terms. If we're playing on the world's terms, we're really no longer the church because the church does not play games on anyone else's terms other than God's. It makes us disagreeable people, kind, compassionate, all of those different things, but also very disagreeable. We're going to rub against people. And that's what I think it means to be salt and light. Hey everyone, thanks for joining us for part one of our conversation regarding religion's place in the government. We're going to continue this conversation on tomorrow's episode, so feel free to come back and check out part two. Take care, everybody. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Our world can feel chaotic and uncertain, but we don't have to live enslaved to fear. Christ has promised me and you his peace and throughout scripture has provided powerful tools and practical steps to help us experience greater freedom. I'm Jennifer Slattery, lead host of the Faith Over Fear podcast, inviting you to join me and my team as together we learn how to starve our fears and feed our faith. Subscribe at lifeaudio.com or wherever you access podcast content.