How Can the Church Play a Role in Government- Part 2

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Everyone, welcome back to this part two of our conversation about does religion have a place in government. This episode is going to start with a little bit of a replay from the previous episode just to give some continuity. And then Alina and I are going to finish out our conversation regarding does religion have a place in government. So I hope you enjoy the episode. Take care. Enjoy. This statement, religion has no place in government. I would actually tend to be in stronger agreement than disagreement with it. Not in the sense that I think Christians shouldn't participate in government. I don't have any issue with Christians holding office. I don't have any issues with Christians voting or any of that. Right. But I do think that the two realms, in order to remain distinct, religion cannot play the political game on the world's terms. And I think that's a crucial point on the world's terms. If we're playing on the world's terms, we're really no longer the church because the church does not play games on anyone else's terms other than God's. It makes us disagreeable people, kind, compassionate, you know, all of those different things, but also very disagreeable. We're going to rub against people. And that's what I think it means to be salt and light. Yes. So, yeah, that's how I think about it. There's a reason the largest church in the world is an underground in China, because there's a point to which they tell the government that is killing, that killed 50 million people actually. Right. To that government, they're saying, yeah, but, you know, we're going to stay with Jesus. Like there's a there's a limit to which we're not going to really abide by the government's, the state religion, all that, because we really love Jesus. There's power there. I want to make two observations here because these conversations are really important. They're important to me, but I think they're important for a whole generation and important for somebody that is really thinking through their own wrestling with these concepts. Can we move the conversation forward? One is the matter of the longest chapter in the book of John, John chapter six, like verse 68. Something happens where there's fascinating to me where Jesus has 70 disciples and he starts talking all kinds of things. And he's saying, you need to drink my blood. You have to eat my flesh. And all those people were like, you know what? Double tap. We're out of here. Like this is this this is too much. And then he turns to the 12 and he was like, aren't you going? And and Peter looks at him and is like, where? And Peter makes a statement, which is very powerful because in that moment, everything that Peter would have done through the many of this body, I think it's absolved just by the statement that is made. It's like, where would we go? You have the words of eternal life. And then he said, we have come to believe. We have actually come to the realization to the belief that you are from God, that you are God. And in putting that in perspective to hold that belief as a Christian, that basically Jesus has the words of eternal life in another place in the New Testament. He spoke like one that had power. We are sometimes either drunk or afraid of power. There's there's drunk with power, afraid of power. And yet, even in you mentioned in the previous podcast, we talked about government and the whole government and all that. And I highly recommend that that discussion that Jesus said, I have the authority, the entire authority was given to me. Right. When I think it's such a minimizing factor to to really try to shove religion and Christianity into government like it fits there. And if you do that, you give it legitimacy. Right. It's such a it's such a minimizing of even Peter's broken understanding of the fact that Jesus has the words of eternal life. That basically in him, you'll find something that you don't find in the monopoly game, that no good political speech, doesn't matter how great it is, comes anywhere close to that. And I'll make a second observation with your permission. For me, I got stuck and I constantly go back to John chapter three out of that conversation. And this is one of the things that I love about our theology of worship comes from Jesus talking to a woman at the well. Our theology of salvation comes from Jesus talking to a Pharisee named Nicodemus, having a late night conversation. And from that, we have John 316 tattooed on our faces in the game day and being the number one verse in the world translated everywhere from one late night conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus. But that conversation is fascinating to me. And it ties directly into what we talk about today because Nicodemus comes to Jesus late at night in a time when it was the highest. I would say if you look in the history of the world, the highest human experience in three areas. You have the highest human experience in terms of the temple, the religiousness. I don't think there's ever been a more complex temple than the Jewish temple. So the religious aspect of it, the highest game. You have the Roman Empire, which has never I don't think there's ever been a more robust empire than the Roman Empire in terms of organization, glory, the glory of Rome, all that craziness. And you have the highest form of philosophy right now in America and all the world. We still study the philosophers that are contemporary or just a little bit around Jesus's time. So Nicodemus is sitting at the foothill of the largest, most complex empire in the world and government form of government in the world. America still organized like the Roman Empire to this day. He's sitting at the foot of the temple, the most complex religious system ever known to humanity and is sitting on the foothill of the philosophy. The highest form of philosophy we still teach our children right now about Plato and all those guys. And yet he's saying not enough. He comes out at night and comes to Jesus and was like, I have some questions. And he becomes such a devout religious person. We found him again buying Jesus's tomb, basically sacrificing himself. So for me, looking at what the world has to offer, what the governments, what the philosophy, what all these have to offer, they really, truly pale in comparison with what Jesus has to offer when you actually fully devote, fully dedicate yourself to the kingdom. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Yeah, it's an important point because, well, I think it's a really important point because, number one, we, you know, I've said this before, Christians are the only one who can, are the only people who can proclaim the gospel. And so if we start to dilute that message, we really do short what we're doing for the world. And I think this is something that many Christians may not think through 100%. What I would say is, when we're building up the body of Christ, when we are becoming disciples,

Right, strengthening our own spiritual growth. That is, to some degree, for us. It's for the church. It's to glorify God. It's all those things. It's also for the world's sake. Yes. And I think that's the part we miss, that us becoming the church, us becoming more the church, becoming increasingly conformed to the image of Christ, is not simply something that benefits us. It's actually for the world. The world needs to see it. Yes, yes. And so to tie ourselves in to what God has established, an appropriate thing that God has established. The state is not trivial, right? I don't think, I don't want people to hear us saying that. The state isn't trivial. Not at all. It's absolutely crucial. God has established it for a very particular purpose. I just happen to think that we often expand the scope of the state beyond what God has intended. And so we, you know, God has given it a certain degree of authority, and we tend to do this. We say, well, if God has given it this authority, then we need to expand that authority and give it this amount of authority. And it's like, no, if God's given us this amount of authority, that's the amount of authority it has. And so why are we giving it more? And so the point is, the state has its place. Those governing authorities have their place. But their place is not in the church. And I don't think that the church's place is with, necessarily, the governing authorities. And again, when I say that, I'm not saying Christians shouldn't participate in government. What I am saying is that when we start to mix and intermingle those two categories, church and state, church and religion, we get into some very sticky problems that I don't really think we want to get into. And so I think the other side of that, Ali, and the other thing I would say to your comments is, you know, Philippians, or not Philippians, I'm sorry, Ephesians 2.12 through about 19, 1 Peter 2, right? Specifically 2.9. You have this piling up of political terms that are then applied to the church, right? Peter calls the church a chosen nation, or a chosen race, a holy nation, a people of God's own possession, right? Ephesians 2 talks about the separation of the Gentiles from the commonwealth of Israel and the engrafting in of the Gentiles so that they are now citizens alongside God's chosen people. And that they have become not only citizens, but also members of the household, of the oikonomia of God. And that phrase, household, is not like I live in a house, right? The household was considered sort of a, not exactly a political unit, but it wasn't exactly just a family either. And so what we're seeing is, I think, this piling up of terms with regard to the church, that the church is in and of itself a political entity. And that as we're exercising Christ's authority, not again through the political means of the world, but through discipleship, what we are doing and what we're trying to do is draw people out of, it's very similar, like I've come to think of it like the call of Abraham. Abraham's in a settled nation and God calls him to sojourn, right? Trust me, come away from your established land and sojourn with me. We have a very similar call to non-Christians. We're saying, look, we know you think you're part of this American system. Come sojourn with us. We're not actually part of that system, right? Come sojourn with us. Come be a part of our community. Come be a part of our political community. And again, in saying that, I think the real root problem of some of the Christian nationalism that I'm seeing is that it has a militance to it. And to me, Christianity is not about militance. It's about martyrdom. We are to be faithful to God even when the consequences mean death. And so Christian nationalism seems like what it wants is, it wants to shift the power around a little bit so that Christians or people who believe the same thing as Christian nationalists, right, are now in charge and can order society such that, in my sort of tongue in cheek way of putting this is, so that we can be comfortable with the sinfulness of the world, right? We're uncomfortable with abortion, but we may not be so uncomfortable with greed, right? And so let's maximize the economy but eliminate abortion, right? Well, you know, I mean, on some level, I like, if we could get rid of all abortion, great, fine. Maybe I would live with greed, but I'm not sure that that's the end goal that we should be shooting for, right? It suggests an ordering of loves, which I think is an appropriate thing, right? But it doesn't suggest an end, right? Our utopian dream cannot be in ceasing prosperity through capitalist economics, but no abortion, right? That's the wrong utopia, right? And so, and that's not a shot at capitalism at all, right? It's just, it's the underscore point that the church is not that. And the kingdom of heaven is not that. And so when we depend on those mechanisms to lead us to the promised land, we are inevitably not going to end up in the promised land that we are anticipating, right? The only way into the promised land is to follow Jesus. He is not only the source of our salvation, he is the way, the truth, and the life, the way, right? In the way that he lived, so must we live. Yes, yes. And so there's a discipline and a discipleship that is required for us to live as Jesus lived. So that's sort of my thoughts on this. I think, you know, as we consider religion involved in government, that is my big concern, I think, is that all of a sudden, where maybe the intention is for government to serve religion or to sit underneath, you know, the authority of religion for religion to call balls and strikes on, let's say, you know, moral issues or issues of justice and things like that. What I tend to see happen is that religion will be corrupted by state concerns, because the state has no real choice but to be anxious about what people will wear and what people will eat, whereas Christians are called not to be anxious about those things, but to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. And so there is a mismatch here. And again, not to trivialize the state, God has established it for a reason, it's different. And so pulling these two things that are very different together and suggesting a fusion between them, I think is way wrongheaded. I agree strongly. So I often refer to the Roman Empire and I know it sounds like I'm a broken record, but I do because I'm Romanian and we come from the Romans. We got, you know, we got taken over by the Roman Empire 2,000 some years ago. So but, but there's a strong lesson to be learned. There's a strong lesson to be learned. So the Roman Empire, in 313, the emperor Constantine issued the Edict of Milan, which accepted Christianity and made Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire. What's what's fascinating to me is that that that move is attributed to the fall of the Roman Empire. But when an empire really conflating the two of Christianity and empire, it's one is deemed to destroy the other if you actually put them on top of each other. One is deemed to swallow and completely devour the other one. And that's why our conversation does take a dimension of of importance and reality on the fact that are we Are we comfortable with a concept that when we actually want religion and government to actually be mingled in such a way that you can't untangle them, one will devour the other, that one will actually eat the power of the other, right? What's fascinating to me is that so you have 313, but in 380, the emperor Theodosius issued the Edict of Thessalonica, which made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire. Christianity, the official religion. What I loved about that move, so they said

Christianity is the official religion, but the Nicene Christianity. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up, and many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide, or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878, or call 888-958-6579. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up, and many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide, or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878, or call 888-958-6579. And they immediately named heretics, everybody that was not Nicene in their approach and started taking their properties and actually killing people who were not, and they were deemed heretics. So now with the newfound power, right, with the new devoured power, they're saying whoever is not this flavor of religion is outside of the state. What a massive problem, right? I don't think we're far removed from that reality in America. If this becomes ever a reality where America will actually accept the type of religion to be the religion of state, besides civil religion, I would really be concerned about everybody else. Well, I think you're probably right to be concerned about everybody else, because I think in the best instances, you know, you have, let's say, Constantine and Charlemagne, who also within the history of the world have sort of proclaimed a Christian empire. And I think the best reading, the most generous reading of what they did is that they helped to facilitate the flourishing of the church, right? Instead of mandating, coercing people to be Christian, they tried to clear space. And again, this is the most generous reading, I think. They tried to clear space to allow the church to flourish. And, you know, to some degree, I think that's an appropriate way of thinking about part of what the state could do, is that, you know, maybe instead of, you know, voting along party lines and issues and those kind of things, maybe what we should be thinking about is, you know, or at least one of the things we should be thinking about is, how does a particular political regime position itself vis-a-vis the church? That said, I think that right now what we're sitting in is a polarized environment where people are either right or wrong. There isn't a lot of room for gray areas. And so it does seem to lend itself to this moment where you're either right or wrong. You're either going to be on the wrong side of history or on the right side of history. And there's going to be some sort of arbitrary tribunal of people. And I don't really care. I mean, I could be on that tribunal, and I would still think it was a bad idea, right? Because I think anyone who sits above and tries to decide and call balls and strikes on what is and what is not appropriate and maybe heretical versus orthodox, we're entering into a new situation where the coercive power of the state is now combined with a religious force and authority. And in combining those two, what you get is a monster. You get basically the worst parts of Revelation. And so, you know, you think through Revelation 12 and 13, right, where you have the two beasts and the second beast forces people to bow down to the first beast. This is, I think, in my reading of Revelation, the odd combination of civil and religious authority. And so, you know, we want to be careful how we think about these issues. I don't know that people are sitting back twisting their mustaches and petting their cats, you know, and trying to be evil about all of this. But I think that good intentions often pave the way to really negative consequences. And we should be consulting the word of God, trying to understand it as well as possible, recognizing, I think, that the church and the state are really, truly separate entities, whether we want to combine them or not. The church and the state are always going to be separate because God has established them as such. And so in reality, they are separate. In our experience, we may try to merge them. That's our mistake. And I think that will have problems. So ultimately, I think, you know, maybe we're probably agreeing. It sounds like we're agreeing that, you know, religion, if we're thinking about this statement, religion has no place in government. Would you agree, Ealine, that if we rephrase this to say, religion has no voice with government? In other words, religion should have no influence over government, that we would both disagree with that. Yes. Also, I would say the government is filled with religious people. Yeah. And I think that's really, yeah. You can't separate the fact that that is the reality. The government is formed by people. Right. And I think that's really the kicker here is that, you know, if we think about it in terms of, should religion have some sort of a voice with the government? Should it have the ability to speak truth to power? Obviously. Right. I mean, I think we can. You know, that is something that we can agree with, but I would also say, you know, sort of, and this is to project, we're going to do some, we're going to have some folks on who are familiar with the Barmen Declaration that the Confessing Church made during World War II, when the German Evangelical Church sided with the Nazis. The Confessing Church came along and wrote up the Barmen Confession and basically said, no, we really can't endorse the Nazis because we're the church and that means something. And I think that where we're at with Christian nationalism is something of a similar place. And I'm not comparing Christian nationalists to Nazis. Don't hear me saying that. But this sort of merger and fusion of the church and state is oddly similar to what the Barmen Declaration was addressing, which is basically saying nothing about the atrocities of Nazi Germany. They were simply saying something about the atrocity of the church fusing with government and setting aside its God-given responsibilities as church. Yes. Yes. And it doesn't have to be the, it doesn't have to be, you know, ending up into a genocide or into a Holocaust. But it's still already that to a point that we really will never see the side effects of doing that. The ripple effects don't end at the core. Yes. Well, very good, man. I think we've kind of addressed this statement, religion has no place in government, with which many Christian nationalist adherents disagreed. What I would say is that I tend to agree with it with the qualification that religion needs to have a place to speak to government, almost a prophetic function that calls government and reminds government, both inward and deed, I think in its very presence, it reminds government that it is under God's authority and that everything it's doing is provisional, temporal, and that it is really incapable.

and ultimately not called to address some of those deeper spiritual issues. That is the realm of the church. And so... Yes, I fully agree with that. So, as we kind of close out these discussions, this will be the last of the discussions we do on the Neighborly Faith Report. I just think, you know, overall, where I stand with Christian nationalism is there can't really truly be... To suggest that there should be a fusion between church and state is to deny the institutions that God has established. Yes. I think that if the church is going to influence... Yeah, and I think if the church is going to influence American government, it has to do that as the church, as separate from the American government. Um, but as citizens in a democracy, we certainly have the opportunity, right? And I think it is appropriate for us to think about how we participate in that American democracy. But I think as we'll discuss a little bit in different episodes later, I would argue that that decision-making process, as to go back to an analogy we used, shouldn't take place on the monopoly board. It should take place before we decide to play Monopoly. Yes, I agree. This is a great journey for me, also a journey of discovery. I'm very thankful for these conversations. And as I learn even more and as I observe more about what does it mean to be an American, what does it mean to be a Christian, and what does it mean to be a Christian in America. But one thing that I appreciated is, what's the foundation from which I sit? Am I a Christian getting involved in religious aspects, or am I an American actually? Like, what's first? What is the foundation from which I analyze things? So thank you for this conversation. Yeah, and we're always, I think we can leave the conversation here, we are always Christian first. Always Christian first. If we're going to be disciples of Christ, we have to be Christian first. And that really does mean that we think about these things differently than just along red or blue political lines. Yes, and empires come and go. That's right. Well, thanks, Eileen, for being part of these conversations. And thanks, y'all, for listening. Hopefully you come back for the next episode of Thinking Christian. And check out our website, usefultothegod.com. It's usefultothegod.com. There's other resources and things there that you can check out. And also check out my forthcoming book. I've got a book coming out called Serpents and Doves, and it covers a lot of the ground that we're talking about today. It's on Christian's politics and bearing witness in the world. And so I just encourage you to check out that book. It should be out by February. So take a look for that. Yeah. But until the next episode, have fun, enjoy life, and don't go insane over U.S. politics. Take care, everybody. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Hi, I'm Becca Cook, host of The Becca Cook Show. I lived as a gay man in Hollywood for many, many years until I had a radical encounter with Jesus 13 years ago. Since then, I've gotten my master's degree in seminary and published a book called A Change of Affection. On my podcast, The Becca Cook Show, I sit down with fascinating Christian scholars and thinkers to address the lies of the culture and bring the biblical truth to bear on those lies. To start listening now, go to lifeaudio.com or search for The Becca Cook Show on your favorite podcasting platform.