Christian Nationalism and the Church-State Divide: A Theological Reflection on the PCA Vote

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Nate again. And we're going to be talking about Christian nationalism a bit. And specifically, we're going to be talking about how this recent Presbyterian Church of America vote related to Christian nationalism and the study of Christian nationalism is important for us today. And so, Nate, this is an interesting topic. It's one you kind of brought to my attention. We talked a lot about Christian nationalism. And so it's kind of interesting to see other big denominations sort of jumping into this. Frame out the conversation a little bit for us. I mean, what is this all about from your perspective? Yeah, I think we've had a lot of conversations about Christian nationalism and you've been on some panels recently about it, you know, and not always having the same opinion as others. But I think when a big denomination like this, like steps forward and says, hey, we're going to try to, you know, face this thing head on. I think that's that's a step in the right direction. I think that's good. And it's worth having a conversation about as to why, you know, more people aren't maybe talking about it. It is something that I'm starting to slowly see in the media, too, where they're relating all Christians to the Christian nationalism. And I want to be very sure that we're clear that that's not the case. We kind of needed to line there. Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I think the you know, as we've discussed this, I mean, my view on Christian nationalism is is probably very similar to what I'm seeing with the Presbyterian Church. I would say that Christian nationalism isn't about whether Christians should participate in politics, whether that's through voting, running for office or anything like that. What Christian nationalism, when it becomes problematic, in my view, is when it creates too close of a merger between the church and the state. So in my reading of Scripture, the church and the state are separate and distinct entities. You know, when we read in Romans 13, 1 through 4, that God instituted governing authorities in order to enact justice on the earth. That's a little bit of a paraphrase, but people will forgive me for that, I think. But that's not the church. So, you know, these governing institutions, these governing authorities are given the sword. Right. They're given the ability to discern good and evil to some degree. Do they do that perfectly? Do they always do that with a recognition that they sit under the authority of Jesus Christ? No, but they are a separate entity that I see sort of established in Scripture that is distinct from the church. And so that doesn't mean that the church shouldn't try to have some sort of influence there. It doesn't mean that the church shouldn't prophetically speak to those governing authorities, encouraging them to recognize that they do sit under the authority of Jesus Christ and they do they should wield the authority they have given appropriately. But it does mean that Christians shouldn't be attempting to take over the political realm, take over as the governing authorities, because that is not the position that we've been given. Right. The church is not the governing authority. And so that's that to me is when Christian nationalism begins to go off the rails. There's a deep confusion between the role of Christianity in building the kingdom of God and the role of governing authorities in restraining evil, establishing justice and opening up venues for potential human flourishing. Those are two very different functions. And I think they're two very different entities that perform those functions. Absolutely. Very different. And I'll take it one step further, maybe with a different type of analogy that maybe someone would relate to. We've all seen the Grammys or like the award shows for music or for different things. People get there and you know the kind of music or the kind of person that they live, like what you see on social media or whatever. And then everyone gives this speech and thanks everyone they can. And they're like, and of course, last but not least, I want to thank my Lord and Savior. Or they say none of this possible without God. But that doesn't mean because they say that, that doesn't mean that God is actually Lord of their life. That doesn't mean that they're actually like actively following Christ. Just because you wear a huge, you know, five million dollar chain with a cross on it doesn't mean that you have a relationship with the Lord. And so that's kind of another similar thing with this, like looking at our forefathers. And we've talked about this before. Like, yes, they probably had Christian principles, but we don't know that all of them actually were actively serving Christ, like at the center of their life. Well, and I think there's, you know, there's always that sort of conflation. Doug Wilson put a video out around July 4th that he was talking about. Most of the people who founded the nation were Christians and that very few were deists and that this then demonstrates that we are a Christian nation. And I guess my always my pushback on these kind of sort of logical paths is that we have to understand then what we're saying when we say Christian. Biblically, what what Christian, the word Christian is only used three times, twice in Acts, once in first Peter. In Acts, it refers to the mixed multitude of Jews and non-Jews who are united in Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ is sort of central to that. It's not just some random assembly of Jews and Gentiles. Right. You have to have all three. It's the Jews, it's the non-Jews and it is Jesus Christ, all three united together moving forward. The two instances in Acts, I think both would fit that definition or that that description of the use of the term. The one in first Peter talks about suffering as a Christian, which suggests that we are sharing in the suffering of Christ within the context of that letter. It has sort of Christ as center. And so when we apply that word Christian to something like, let's say, Christian doctrine, we're not talking about doctrines that a majority group of Christians came together and doctored. We're talking about doctrines that are so characteristic of the community of Jews and non-Jews united to Jesus Christ that are derived from Scripture and sit underneath the you know, that recognize the authority of God, that these are so characteristic of that that we we can't really make being Christian intelligible without them. Right. What does it mean for someone to be Christian yet reject the Nicene Creed? Well, it doesn't make any sense that that doesn't compute. Right. These are the core doctrines of Christianity are Christian doctrines. Right. And we could say the same thing about Christian worship. You know, let's say we happen to go to a Nickelback concert where the majority of the crowd is Christian. Does that automatically make that Christian worship? That's not what we mean by the term. Exactly. That's a great example. Right. Like, so I think my problem with these sort of statements is that we're not being precise enough with the language. So is America a Christian nation? I have sort of said, no, it's not. Not in the sense that the Bible uses Christian. Now, does that mean that it couldn't be characterized as a Christian nation in some other way? As in the way that Doug Wilson seems to be using it, like the majority of these people were Christian. They were seeking to develop a nation that was sort of inspired by biblical principles or Christian ideals. Sure, we can say that. The problem is that we're both using the same word for completely different meanings. Right. And I think that becomes the real crux of the issue. It gets very confusing very quickly. Right. Because we're not being as precise as we need to with our language. And so what I would argue, just like you said, this idea that, you know, if somebody just because somebody claims that they're thanking God, doesn't necessarily mean much. It doesn't mean that they view Jesus as Lord of their life. I would argue that there's a fundamental distinction that we need to make between the church that is constituted by the word of God and sits under the authority of the whole word of God. We don't get to pick and choose which passages we listen to. Right. The whole word of God. Right. And we're constituted by it and we're seated underneath it. There's a fundamental difference between that and saying that that is Christian versus saying we have an entity like the United States that has selectively utilized various biblical passages as inspiration for forming in the nation. Fundamental difference. Big time. One recognizes the Bible as the inspired.

We don't have a desired final authority for life and faith. One uses the Bible for inspiration to determine its own course. That is not saying that one is good or that the United States is somehow evil or something like that. It's just to say that when we call it Christian, I think we're demeaning the term or diminishing the term, and we need to be more careful with that. Right. Now, how does all that relate to Christian nationalism? I would just say it relates because I think we have the same use of Christian in Christian nationalism as we have when we often talk about a Christian nation. This stuff is not theologically driven. Right. It's ideologically driven, right, with select ideas sort of being pulled in to justify political action. It isn't a robust theological position. Yeah. And I don't see how sometimes people don't see, with any presidency, with anybody's term, if you look back the last, like, six presidents, like, they always lean heavy into the faith thing right during elections, like, to get that. And it's almost like pieces of the chessboard are being moved around and, you know, they grab the whole Christian side. Like, Trump did it both times. And, you know, it's not my place to say, is he actually real, like, have a relationship with Christ? That's not my place to determine. Who knows? I don't think any of us really, truly know that. But I know we see that a lot from a lot of politicians as they're, you know, because that's a majority. That's a group that everyone wants to try to get. But, yeah, I just, that's really interesting to think about, like, the Nickelback thing, because I think it should play too. Everyone thinks, like, people call it the chicken. That doesn't mean that everybody that works for Chick-fil-A is serving Christ actively, though. Right. And I mean, to call something a Christian company, what do we mean by that? Usually we mean by that that there's a Christian leadership of the company. That's what we're really saying. And so, again, the language is just a little lazy. Right. And all of us fall into that. It's not like I think I'm so diligent with my language that nobody could ever confuse what I'm saying. But the point is that when we say Christian company, that denotes something different and collective. And what we're really saying is the leadership of the company is Christian and they're trying to allow God to help them discern how to run their company. Just to unpack what I think we mean by that, that's what I think we mean. Right. And that's probably what we want when we're electing people. Like you mentioned, you know, when people are running on faith. I think a lot of Christians, what they're looking for is how is this person going to situate themselves in relation to the word of God? Are they sort of viewing themselves as marginally adjacent to it? Right. So I'll pick it up and use it if I need some strength, but most of the time I'm making my own decisions. Yeah. Are they sitting underneath it where they're really trying as the leader of a very complex, difficult, a lot of gray area sort of country, you know, where the job isn't to institute Christianity. But the job is to enact justice and maintain a certain level of goodness within the society. Right. What does that look like? And so are they sitting under God's authority in doing that? Are they allowing God to guide what they're doing? Or are they really more concerned with just getting re-elected and enacting some policies and, you know, burning through some rhetoric? Yeah, totally. But I think it's appropriate for Christians to think like that about our leaders. Yeah. You know, maybe that is who we want, right? Maybe that's our ideal. We want someone who does have a real fear of the Lord and that we realize is going to make some mistakes, like all leaders do, isn't going to follow the Lord perfectly. But it has that sort of attunement to God's presence in his life, her life, whichever way we want to go with that. And so, again, I think Christian nationalism is one of those that I would say is, I would call it a perversion, a distortion of some of the more realistic or what I would say are, you know, sort of biblically and theologically driven desires that maybe a Christian might have. And and it's just, again, it's that merger of church and state. It's this whole mythos of, hey, America was a Christian nation. We need to get back to that. In order to get back to that, we have to assert ourselves politically. We need to be in charge. We need to drive this ideology into the government. And really, Christ is nowhere in that, except in this sort of odd use of the term Christian in relation to nationalism. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Totally. I do have a question, James. I'd just like to hear your thoughts on this. Like I did not personally hear, and maybe it's just because I, this wasn't on my radar, but I didn't hear about the term Christian nationalism until just a few years ago. And I wonder why it wasn't a topic of conversation like eight years ago, like in other, you know, like, say, when Obama was sitting as our president, how come the conversation wasn't happening then? Because, you know, he would probably, he had said before, you know, that God bless America and he had mentioned God a lot and said that he was a Christian per se, but I'm just curious, like why you think this is now such a massive conversation and it's constantly, we can't really get away from it. I see it all the time. So I'd say a couple of things. Number one, I think that it's just cultural drift. I think a lot of Christians and probably conservatives who aren't even Christians who might identify as Christian nationalists. I mean, that's where we get into some of this oddity, right? I think that there's a group of people within the United States who feel like the United States is drifting away from the values that they really care about and that are central to them. And I want to use that term values really intentionally because ultimately I don't know that Christians really have values. We have convictions, right? We don't, we don't just care about things. We're convicted about things. And so there, there is a distinction there that we need to maintain. So these values that people are really enamored with, they see those being eroded. And I think as that's gotten increasingly more prevalent within society, this movement has sort of grown up. My understanding is, and I couldn't name the time or place when Christian nationalism was first sort of spoken as a term, but it has gotten more prevalent in the last several years because there is that growing unrest. I would also just say, you know, you mentioned, you know, Obama, God bless America, those kind of things. We need to be careful to distinguish Christian nationalism from American civil religion. So I think when Obama says something like God bless America or Joe Biden talks about, you know, the image of God or Trump sites, you know, second Corinthians, second Chronicles 714, you know, like all of those are part of American civil religion. Notice that none of those really address the triune God. None of them are particularly robust theologically. Almost every time people quote a biblical passage, it's out of context and not really relevant to our current American situation. And so I do a lot of this work in serpents and doves. And so people wanted to kind of dig in a little further. They could go there, but we've also had podcasts on this topic, so they could go back and listen to some of those kind of things. And you've written some articles that we could post to the show notes. Yeah, I've got some articles on it, but I think overall, what we're seeing there is American civil religion. In other words, the vernacular of scripture and even some scripture passages. For instance, in Washington, DC, there are tours that'll take you around and show you all these different biblical passages that are sort of engraved around Washington, DC. And I think that Christians like to think that this is evidence of some sort of Christian ethos.

That was available early on. My worry with it is that this is actually not Christianity, that it is actually American civil religion. And those are, there's a subtle difference between the two, but a gentleman who's really studied this, Robert Bella, who was kind of the pioneer in American civil religion studies, he talks about America utilizing the language of scripture and religion in such a way that it didn't seem confrontational to those who were actually religious. That seems like it's not, as he says, he doesn't think American civil religion is anti-clerical. But if you just take a minute and step back from it and say, can you think of anything more dangerous than someone pretending to be your friend and misusing the sacred book that we've been given as the final authority for our life and faith? It's really dangerous. No, totally. And so we do need to distinguish these two, Christian nationalism from American civil religion. American civil religion is sort of permeating all around us. I think it's behind some of the things like, although there is some carryover, the Texas governor just signed a bill that would put the 10 commandments up in classrooms. Some people would call that an act of Christian nationalism. I would tend to say, yeah, maybe, but also this is in keeping with American civil religion. The waning of American civil religion and Christian nationalism aren't necessarily the exact same thing. And so a revival in American civil religion, we need to treat that as adjacent to, but probably distinct from the Christian nationalism movement. Yeah, totally. And it's very similar to, I mean, if somebody gets all up in arms about the commandments, it's very similar to what you just mentioned at the White House where you can do a little tour and see scriptures. It just kind of reinforces like what we're built on, like, like what you're saying. It's just kind of like everything is kind of loosely around that. I don't know if it, that he is trying to say like, these have to be read every day and like instilled in these kids. Like I, I think it's just going along with having it there. Like the White House has those examples. Yeah. And I think the interesting part, you know, there's part of me that says, okay, great. The 10 commandments are going to be up. Hopefully some kids will glance at them and wonder, I wonder where those come from. And that'll drive them into scripture in the same way that I would say the carvings in DC are sort of interesting and maybe they'll drive people back into the biblical texts and they can have a real encounter with Jesus Christ. So that's one side of it. I think my worry is that just as biblical writers pull secular proverbs into scripture and those now become sacred scripture. My worry is that we have a similar dynamic, but in the opposite direction, when we pull biblical passages out and baptize them or immerse them within American society, all of a sudden the God who is referred to there is a generic God. He's not Yahweh. He's not the God of Israel. He's certainly not the triune God. He's not, you know, Christ and the Holy Spirit. He becomes this sort of generic higher power. Right. And, you know, all of a sudden not stealing has no real theological value. It's just a nice way to be. Right. Not covening has no theological value. It's just a nice way to be. Sabbath. Why would we do that? Don't we all need to work? Right. I mean, as a set of quote unquote values, the 10 commandments really have very relatively less to say than if we're reading them within the context of Israel's covenant commitment to the Lord and understanding that what God is giving them is a roadmap to a life that is living along the underlying dynamics that make the world work. In other words, in order to make the world work, we don't need to just follow this set of rules. We don't even need to embody a set of values that, you know, sort of love our neighbor first. First one, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your might. And so when we get that wrong, nothing else is really going to fall into place. So as a tool to help, you know, sort of restrain evil, I don't mind it. But I do worry that Christians get a little bit too excited about these things. And I think we need to have a more tempered thought process around it, recognizing that these are definitely being taken out of context in a way that we would not want them to be. Right. And we just need to recognize that. And those people you're referring to, the, you know, the feel good, like the ones that feel bolstered by it that are like, oh, I got to get in on this because I'm a Christian and they feel like they have to activate their faith, like right now. Like, how would they feel if, say, we're having the same conversation in America, but from Muslims? And it was like, no, there's a lot of people here that serve Allah. And I think they would be up in arms about that. But then they're not thinking about how that might make other people feel. If you look at New York City, for instance, my family came over my dad's side in the 40s to Staten Island, New York City from Sicily. And they all came over Roman Catholic. And a lot of people coming over from all over the world, all over Europe. And a lot of them weren't Christians. They were Catholics. They were Presbyterian. They were, you know, all these different kinds of things. And so it's a melting pot. It's a Christian nation. Even just New York City is a Christian city. I think it's kind of a stretch. And then I think we also don't think how that language and those words makes other people that recognize a different religion, how it would make them feel. You know what I mean? I do. I think I'd also like to make a secondary point to that, which is. As Christian vernacular biblical verses, you know, sort of references to a generic God are sort of put out into the world and into society. I think it diminishes the witness of the church. It makes it more difficult to know when we're being Christ in the world and when we're just being American. And so this is where, and I've said this before, I think we're settling for wholesomeness when only holiness will do. There is a real sense in which Christians need to not be, we shouldn't be unconcerned with the way of society or with the good of the world. Those are appropriate things for us to be involved with. We need to be looking at justice and mercy. We need to, we need to be doing all those things. But at the same time, all of that has to be nested within, right. Immersed within a life that points to and glorifies the triune God. Rearranging, and I know it's a worn out metaphor, but rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic isn't saving anyone. Right. And so our job as witnesses to Jesus Christ is to live a life of faith. And when we do some of these things, right, when we're excited that the government seems to be getting on our side, it starts to feel like the government is more important than it actually is. That's not to say that the government is not important. It's just, it has a scope of importance that Christians should be recognizing and, and shouldn't let it sort of bleed out of that scope. Right. And so I think that's when, you know, we start to see, again, I would, I would distinguish American civil religion from Christian nationalism. There are a lot of folks I've talked to who don't see the dangers in American civil religion. My perspective has shifted on this a little bit over time. I've kind of softened my position. I would say when I wrote Servants and Doves, I was really anti-American civil religion. Now, what I would say is I can see the potential for good things to come out of it. Like I said, you know, if you're going to hang the 10 commandments, maybe somebody will look at those like you can see how it leads someone to a true encounter with Jesus Christ. But I also see the negative side of it. And so to me, I think it's, it's probably not our best vehicle, but since it's there, we should try to use it as best we can. There's no need to, you know, sort of try to counteract it necessarily, but I also think that we can't become American civil religion adherents. We still need to be Christians. Right. First and foremost. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed with inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty. 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Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide, or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Yeah, Christian nationalism, I view very differently. Christian nationalism, I think, is an aberrant theology that is claiming to be done in the name of the triune God, but is really just pursuing an agenda that is completely apart from him. And it's not built on anything solid, because in 28, we might have a whole different landscape, and what's happening right now might not be happening then. Yeah. And then what do you do? Like, your hope and faith is in government. Your hope and faith is in one person's term, where it should have been in Christ the whole time. Yeah. I'll say, like, the PCUSA put out a little one-sheet on thinking through Christian nationalism. You know, I think it's helpful. I agree with a lot of what they put on there, but they do talk about things like, I just got it up here on the other screen, it says, you know, these undermine pluralism and religious liberty. You know, so in under the question of how does Christian nationalism undermine the church and Christianity, one of the bullet points is undermines pluralism and religious liberty. I'm not sure I buy that. That feels like something that is doing to an American idea, right, which religious liberty is very much an American idea. Right. You know, does it, but I really do like what they're saying when they say, distorts the mission of the church from love of neighbor to love of power. Confuses the kingdom of God with earthly nations and earthly power with spiritual calling. I think those are really good characterizations of what I see in Christian nationalism an awful lot. I think this one's a hard one and probably worth discussing. It promotes the oppression and exclusion of those deemed unworthy. I think this gets into what a lot of people are concerned with with Christian nationalism or what's often called white Christian nationalism, is that what's really happening here is that there are a lot of people who feel like they're losing power within society and they're trying to get it back. Right. And in getting it back, that means that other people who have carved out lives for themselves and that the government has given rights and those kind of things are now going to lose those rights. I think Christian nationalism has that propensity, but I also recognize that a lot of this is over my head. Right. When one group is going to be adversely impacted, truly adversely impacted because of Christian nationalism versus groups being adversely impacted because of their own actions against the law, for instance. I think we're just sort of in these sort of conversations, these phony conversations, where it's hard to get clarity on what's really happening because one side is saying, well, this is all because of Christian white nationalism or some, you know, MAGA or whatever. And the other side saying, no, it's about the rule of law. And we're not really getting a lot of clarity on some of these very specific situations or even the general policies. Right. And then the people that are totally against that take the small amount of people that are like so gung-ho, like talking prophetic stuff about how, you know, God had Trump and brought him up and raised him up for this time and like God, he's ushering in this next thing that God's going to do. Like, that's, that's where it gets really dangerous. And I think a lot of people, not everyone, but some people group all of us Christians into that crazy category. And that's concerning as well. We've talked about that on the show in the past as well, where people, it feels like they just want to get close and like touch the hem of his garment. It's like, dude, he's a person. He's just of our country. Right. He's fought like all of us. He's a human. So. Yeah. So I would, I think I'd encourage people. Ultimately, I think I would route them to some of the resources we've done, you know, the conversations we've had on Christian nationalism. In reading through the PCUSA one pager, I, while I appreciate much of it, I think there are some aspects of it that are problematic and aren't really, are, are even, I would say a little more politically motivated than theologically driven. And so, in other words, what I mean by that is PCUSA sort of moves the PCUSA document, if I were reading it and analyzing it, what I would say is it makes subtle shifts between theological points and political points. And so when you change your perspective on things, right, imagine you're in an art class and you're drawing a, you're trying to make a portrait of a bowl of fruit. Right. And you're sitting on one side of the table and you can see an apple and an orange and a banana, and then you shift to the other side and you see a pineapple, a grapefruit and a, you know, a kiwi. Right. Your picture shifts. It's no less real, but your picture shifts. And I think that's what I'm seeing in the, in their one sheet. So when they talk about what are Christian nationalist actions, you know, they have things listed like reinstating prayer in public schools, changing school curriculum to include biblical education, banning books from libraries. If you disagree with the content, pushing it for anti-immigration policies that aim to stop demographic changes. And then discriminating against LGBTQ plus people and more. Those seem to me to be now reinstating prayer in public schools and changing curricula to include biblical education. I would sort of slot into more of American civil religion or return to American civil religion. They have been Christian nationalist talking points of, you know, sort of reinstituting these values and this, you know, sort of wholesomeness back into schools. And it's not something I necessarily would want to oppose, but I do recognize the tension of such a statement in a society that has largely separated church and state. I also have misgivings about what prayer in school actually looks like. So when Christian nationalists are talking about prayer in school, I doubt they're thinking about the sort of prayers I've heard offered by chaplains at secular institutions that refer to God as a her and, you know, God, God and many gods are who we're praying to. Right there. They're probably thinking more about specifically Christian prayer. But the difficulty with that is that if you ask me to offer up a prayer to Allah, like if you're going to force me to do that, I can promise you my heart's not going to be in it. Right. In other words, the person doing the praying actually matters, too. 100 percent. And their intent and where their heart's at. Yeah. I can't imagine some of the teachers that I had who were great people but weren't Christians attempting to lead a prayer in front of a class. It just makes no sense to me. Right. And I would say the same thing with teaching a biblical curriculum. You know, a biblical curriculum taught by a non-believer is only going to be so effective. Right. And so I think overall, the ideas are sort of like they have this ring to them like, oh, yeah, who would ever be against that? But when you start to operationalize them, they become much more challenging. Yeah. And the interesting thing to state is like that's it's going to be easier to get that done in a place like Texas than, say, like a state like Washington or even California. California. Right. It's always going to be divided, even if so. That's another problem I have with Christian nationalism, because there's no way you're getting the whole country on board with one side or the other. Right. When I think even, you know, when we talk about banning books because we disagree with the content, my again, my understanding is, and I could be wrong about this, but schools have often left books out of the curriculum or out of the library because they didn't feel that they represented the morals of their society and or that allowing a child to read it at a certain point would be jarring or disruptive to the child's development. Totally. Right. There's a reason even in, you know, we could just use movies as an example. There's a reason there are some movies that are age restricted. There's a reason that there are some games that are age restricted. It has nothing to do necessarily with some sort of general idea of morality of the content. It's that this has been recognized that this could be detrimental to people who are in development. And you and I aren't in development anymore, Nate. We're sort of on decline.

Right. So nobody really worries about what we put into our heads except for our, you know, our Christian friends, right? But kids are in development. Right. They don't necessarily know what they're looking at, so they're interacting with the world in a way that is helping them to grow and develop and change, shaping them into something. And so, you know, you can't have them watch the same things that you would watch and expect them not to be affected differently by it. Right. And so, yeah, I just think some of these statements in the in the PCUSA thing are a little too unnuanced for my for my flavor. Even the one about discriminating against LGBTQ people. My sort of hot take on this, I guess, is, look, all of us have to be subject to certain restrictions within society. Right. As a heterosexual white male, I have restrictions on what I can do. We can't practice polygamy, right? I can't have multiple wives, which is probably a good thing. You know, but there are just certain restrictions that all of us agree to live by. And so sometimes when I hear this sort of, hey, don't discriminate against LGBTQ people, what my concern then is, is that on a basic policy level, right? What does that look like? Does anti-discrimination or not discriminating mean we just give them whatever it is that they want? I don't think that's the right move. You wouldn't do that with any other group. Right. Right. And so there has to be some nuance there as well. Right. Do I think that people should be shunned because they have a different sexual orientation or what have you? Not at all. No chance. And I think that there should be laws governing the sort of, you know, precluding that sort of discrimination. But at the same time, you know, do I think that somebody who claims to be a man should be able to go into a woman or claims to be a woman but is actually a biological male should get to go into a woman's bathroom? Nope. Yep. I don't think that. I don't think, you know, men who claim to be women should be put in women's prisons. Or sports. Right. I think, you know, at the very least, we've got to be wise in the way that we're assessing the dangers that that sort of thing causes. And so, is that discrimination? Some would call that discrimination. And so the the PCUSA document, and it's a one pager, so I'm like trying to give it some grace. But in referencing some of those things, I think it leaves opaque the the details and the nuances that really need to be drawn into this conversation because reasonable Christians can have. Perspectives that other people might consider prejudiced, but are actually just reasonable Christian opinions. And that does not qualify as Christian nationalism. No, it just qualifies for being aligned with what scripture says. That's right. So it's just one of those things where I think, you know, it's good that I like some of the things that they've pulled out on this. I think they're right about Christian nationalism, you know, sort of being a political ideology. This is how they defined it. That seeks to merge Christian identity with American civil life and national identity. I think that's actually a pretty good description of it. But I just think some of the details get muddy in part because it's a one pager in part because it's impossible to summarize on a policy level what counts as Christian nationalism and what doesn't. Right. It's it's a pretty big conversation. You need more than one sheet. Yeah. And this one can probably be a whole one sheet. Yeah. So, again, I want to give them enough grace to say it is a one pager and there's only so much you can fit while at the same time highlighting for folks who might seek this out that there's a lot more additional nuance that needs to go into this conversation. And probably each one of these points. And that requires us, listeners, readers, everyday Christians kind of dig in a little deeper and think for ourselves how this all really works itself out. And what I mean by that is, how is it that we, as members of God's kingdom, interact with the political structures of the day in a way that points to and glorifies the triune God? Period. Absolutely. I think that's a great place to end, man. That is that sums it all up. Well, man, this is a I'm a little disappointed, actually, that this is coming up again. I know there's part of me that's disappointed and it's like part of me. I was hoping this was over. I thought we were done, too. I think part of me felt like, well, we're probably not done, but I am really encouraged that the PCUSA decided to do this. I think it is an aberrant theology that needs to be addressed and probably needs to be addressed in more places. Right. At the same time, I think jury's still out on how they're going to deal with it. You know what this is going to look like from their perspective. And especially as we dive into, like I said, specific policy issues, I'm interested to see how they end up working this out because they are early in this process. And so, you know, again, jury's out, you know, no judgment, just anticipation of what will happen. Yeah. And we'll be here, I'm sure, to talk about it again. Yeah. I think it'll be a worthy conversation to follow, a worthy, worthy activity to follow. So, all right. Well, we'll call it a day there. Thanks, Nate, for having this conversation. Thanks for bringing up the the news piece. I hadn't seen it. And so I appreciate you bringing it to my attention. This was a great conversation. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. Always good. All right. Take care, everybody. And we'll catch on the next episode of Thinking Christian. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. 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