Angie Velasquez Thorton | Handling Criticism & Accountability in Christian Public Ministry

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. Before I jump into the episode, I wanted to remind you about all the resources that we have available at usefultogod.com. You can check those out at usefultogod.com. I also wanted to alert you to something that I think is pretty special. It's a German Reformation tour that we're running this fall. We'll be walking in the footsteps of Luther and Bonhoeffer and traveling from Berlin to Munich and just reflecting on the enduring witness of faithful believers. The tour runs October 30th to November 9th, and we're hoping that everybody can book by May 31st. Spots are filling up fast, so check that out. The link to that tour is in the show description of today's episode. So if you're interested, check it out. Now, let's dive into this episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Angie Velasquez Thornton. Together with her husband, Dan, Angie has served the Lord in Senegal for 10 years in leadership development with CrossWorld. And she's now based in Montreal, where she and her two daughters and her husband have been since 2017. Angie trains Bible teachers as the women's ministry director for Sola with TGC Quebec. And she blogs in French at TPSG and co-hosts Christian, I think your English is going to be way better than my French. That's the sad part about all this. But it's the first French-speaking women's podcast in our theological tradition. And so she holds an MDiv from Moody Theological Seminary. That's actually where we met. And we reconnected via Facebook Messenger and thought it'd be great to have her on the show. So, Angie, welcome, and thanks for being here. Thanks for having me, James. Yeah. So as we were kind of interacting on Facebook, what we were, I suppose, lamenting or thinking about was just how it is that in a, you know, as people who speak publicly about Christian ideas, theological ideas, biblical ideas, how it is that we handle accountability and also criticism really at a distance. So how do you weather the slings and arrows that people throw at you, shoot at you, when you're trying to do the work of the Lord in this sort of public fashion, hosting podcasts, doing blogs, those kind of things? So I guess my first question to you is, how do you personally define that idea of accountability within the body of Christ? And would you make a distinction between the sort of criticism that often comes at you from a distance, particularly on social media, but probably in other ways as well? Mm-hmm. That's a great question. And I think about the discussion that we had on Facebook that precipitated this interview. And I had asked a few years ago about how other people in leadership positions handle criticism, because I had published an article in French on the blog that I write for, and someone wrote a pretty harsh critique, and I was just taken aback. It was the first time that I had received that kind of feedback from a stranger. And I had asked others what they did to guard their heart from bitterness. And you gave me some great feedback, and you had provided some links to your blog. And when I went to click on them, they were no longer there, maybe because your blog has transitioned. And so I contacted you, and we started the conversation again. And I'm sure you can share those links in the description of this episode. I can definitely do that. Yeah. And so for me, it really came down to recognizing that my local church is where people know me and love me. And so when other people who don't know me and couldn't care less about me feel free as believers to shoot arrows, because I really think it's a work of the enemy to be so harsh in our words when we are in the public square on a public platform. That's between them and the Lord. But if someone who loves me and who knows me well enough to speak into my life were to say something similar, although with gentleness and respect, that would have a lot more weight. And you and I work in the parachurch. And so I think that outside of our local church, we probably have people that we partner with very closely. And I would extend that circle of accountability to, in my case, my leadership team at Sola Femme Scripture, the women's ministry of TGC Quebec, and those that I work closely with on that teaching team. So blogging and podcasting shouldn't be the main means by which I develop my accountability structures, even though that is my main ministry is leadership development in a parachurch organization and blogging and podcasting. So that's really been how I've had to process these questions and allow the Lord to speak through my husband, my pastors, the women's leadership team in my church, and the women that I minister alongside of in Quebec. You know, when I first experienced some of this myself, which I experienced as an academic dean at Moody and then just a little bit more when I got into blogging and podcasting, but I think at that point I was kind of used to it. But one of the passages I went to to sort of begin reflecting on all of this was the passage in 1 Corinthians when Paul talks about following Apollos, following Cephas, even following Paul and following Christ, these factions that seemed to have developed within the Corinthian community that were less devoted to the body of Christ, let's say, as a unity, as a single entity and fellowship, and more interested in displaying the particulars and whatever those particulars were, we don't really know, of specific leaders within the community. Now that seemed to have developed apart from those leaders in the community. You know, it doesn't seem like Apollos was out recruiting for folks. Yeah. Right. But people developed an affinity with that leader, and then that leader and all of that person's, let's call them, you know, faithfulness and flaws, right, become the paradigm by which they see the entire world. And so I'm wondering how you think about this in terms of the unity of the body of Christ and whether or not we are seeing this sort of I follow Apollos mentality play itself out in modern Christian culture, particularly online. Well, I think that we were never meant to have this much independent influence over others as we have in an era of social media. And so it's very unnatural to be able to reach people across the globe. And because I speak different languages, like I minister in French mostly, but I'm also, I have a column. I'm a columnist for TGC Canada, so I also have influence in French. And then I write for TGC in Spanish. So in English, Spanish, and French, I've got a reach, and it's not very natural in the sense that it all comes down to who really knows me. And the less people know me, the less they'll give me the benefit of the doubt. And the more easily they'll ascribe motives to something I said that might be spicy. And I try to avoid being overly spicy, but I am Latina. And as a natural people pleaser, I find that it can really be a challenge to accept criticism and then let it go. And so I think that in our digital age, the challenge is to accept that we will face opposition and that what we can do in this disembodied, anonymous, keyboard warrior age is to forgive and accept that we will be misunderstood. And that's the price that we pay to be in public ministry. It's interesting when I think through just, you know, like you're saying, it's almost unnatural the amount of influence an individual can have over the broad swath of Christian community. And one of the things I've reflected on, I watched one church that I attended sort of be torn apart because some of the congregants decided that the views of a really public, well-known pastor were more authoritative than the views of the pastor at the local level and the elder board. Wow. And it was interesting just to watch the dynamic of this choice of, you know, this one person who didn't, who was abstracted from the context, right? You've got, you know, like you and I, if I were trying to speak into, I'm assuming when I've read your stuff in the past and when I've put my stuff out, I try to be more broad. I try not to speak to a very specific scenario because I don't understand the ins and outs of that scenario. It's impossible for me to really look into a local context and get all the contours of that context down and then say, this is exactly what you should do, like a local pastor or a local leader might do. And so it's just interesting as we put out these more abstractions that are designed to be guiding ideas and to give people things to think about that there seems to have been some sort of...

At somewhere along the way, there's this decoupling that happens between the local level and these sort of broad statements that are made that are designed to be guiding, not meant to supplant what's going on at the local level. And so it's been challenging to try to think through, I think, as I've done the podcast and the blogging and the writing and all that kind of good stuff, how to stay sufficiently broad while still giving some sense of guidance, I suppose, for people. And I view that as part of what I need to be accountable to, you know, not being so specific that it would preclude a local leader from, you know, or undercut a local leader. And so I view that as part of how I think about the accountability I need to have within the role that we're playing. Do you think about, how do you think about that idea of accountability and the fostering of Christian unity within the context of the podcast, the blogging, the public ministry that you do? Well, I think one thing that I like to often come back to in my teaching ministry is talk to your pastor about this. You know, like when I'm leading women's ministry training events where we we teach women how to exposit the Scriptures in whatever context their church opens doors for them to do so, we always encourage them to be mindful that their leaders in their local church are the ones that shepherd them and that guide them in their ministry and that I don't know them. I don't know their context and I am here to serve the church. I'm here to serve their pastors because their pastors probably don't have time to put on women's workshops on how to teach the Bible, you know. So I think that one responsibility that we have in the parachurch is to be vocal about the fact that we're not trying to take the place of the God appointed elders, shepherds, deacons, deaconesses who have been given a responsibility in the context of a local church. And I think that being broad is important and we need to use theological triage because I think that in our political and spiritual tribalism of our age, we like to put ourselves into these ghettos that we then malign anyone who doesn't align with our position. And it's easy to then allow the algorithms to continue to affirm what we believe so that so that there's this confirmation bias that takes place because we're in this echo chamber where everyone that we're seeing thinks just like us. And so we could easily fall into the temptation of writing for people just like us and thinking that we're in the right and anyone who doesn't hold to all the same beliefs as us on secondary and tertiary matters and matters of conscience don't love the Lord and don't love his word as much as we do. And one of the things that helped me most in this journey of being nuanced and recognizing that we are not all clones of one another is that while I was in seminary, I was involved in a church plant with a brother who went to Trinity and who was Pentecostal, Arminian, and egalitarian. And we would have lively debates. But I remember when we would disagree on something and I would present my position, he wouldn't slam me. He would say, well, that's a defendable position from Scripture. And then he would present his position and demonstrate that his position is also biblically defensible from Scripture. And that really helped me understand that if we were to just recognize that there's a tension in Scripture and that others who don't agree with us on these secondary and tertiary issues are still faithfully serving Christ and honoring his word, that would give us such freedom to collaborate and work for unity in the body of Christ in areas that we can. Now, that doesn't mean that we should waffle about everything and that we shouldn't lovingly and gently state our position on these secondary and tertiary matters. But it should mean that we we shouldn't speak of others as if they are less than because they're not five point Calvinists or complementarians or cessationists or whatever label you want to put on yourself to narrow your scope to the essentials of what you believe. And the essential really is the first tier issues. Does this person who claims Christ believe in the Trinity, in the bodily resurrection of Christ, and so forth? And those are the hills that we ought to die on. But someone's view on end times doesn't matter that much as far as fellowship is concerned. Yeah, yeah. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Yeah, it's almost like we've lost the ability to dialogue or we are losing the ability to dialogue. In other words, just like you were describing, you and this gentleman from Trinity who had these different views than you did, it's possible to actually have a conversation with people that you disagree with without defaming them, making them, as you put, lesser. But I think that, and this is something I've said about social media often, if we read James, James says, Be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger. Social media and I think maybe the internet as a whole tends to push us the other direction, wants us to be slow to listen, quick to speak, and quick to anger. And so we're in this sort of knee-jerk moment where when we see something wrong, there are just a lot of people out there, not everybody, but I think a lot of people out there who are unwilling to sit with it. And the more I've looked even at just secular news sort of commentary and what's going on with secular news, you go all the way back to in the 90s, Earl Bernstein of Woodward and Bernstein wrote this great article called The Idiot Culture. And one of the things he talked about was the biggest sin, and I'm paraphrasing him here, but the biggest sin in the newsroom is not being first. You're so worried about being behind the curve that you're not as worried about getting it right. And it seems to me that we're starting to fall into that and sort of adopt some of those patterns that we're seeing online is that we're so quick to respond, but we're not particularly quick to think it through and really engage in a dialogue that would help maybe the person who's writing, maybe I've presented something that's wrong and it would be helpful if someone would engage me on it and help me understand where I'm wrong and how I could think about it differently. But that doesn't seem like that's the impetus behind many of these comments. Yes, absolutely. And I think that when we consider that we're a family, what a difference would it make if we saw that person that we disagree with on the secondary or tertiary matter as my brother, just as much as my biological brother and I can disagree and argue, but we're family. And I don't think that in that moment when I'm rattling away at the keyboard trying to burn someone because they're so dumb that I'm demonstrating that I really consider this person part of my family. And I think we also don't think about the eschatological reality that the end of all things is that we are going to be reconciled, aligned, unified, and together we will be one bride of Christ. We'll retain our gender, our culture, our differences that are embodied in us as human beings, but we'll also be one. And so why not prepare now for that reality by seeking to live in light of eternity? Yeah, I mean, the eschatological dimension of this is so crucial because if we are supposed to be building one another up toward that end, we have to start evaluating some of our activities and asking ourselves whether or not this is actually helping to build the body of Christ or whether it's beginning to tear it down and tear it apart. And so I think that eschatological focus is really crucial. Any other ways you can think of that would help us develop that sort of culture of dialogue among Christians? I mean, it seems to me that we need, yes, that eschatological outlook, but surely there's more that we could do to really help Christians be more capable and willing to engage in constructive dialogue that would, I think, yield a lot more accountability than the sort of critical trolling that oftentimes happens online. Yeah.

Absolutely. I think one strategy to help us overcome this tendency to divide would be to be intentional on a face-to-face level of meeting with people that we don't hold the same views on, on issues that are still important to us. We don't have to reject their importance. But I remember once I was on a short-term missions trip with my Baptist church in Southern California, and they collaborated with some other churches, and we went to India. And one of the women on my team was a female pastor, a youth pastor. And I was like, at the time, I'm like, I was so uncomfortable with this idea because I came from a very conservative background. And yet I fell in love with her. I was like, she's awesome. She loves Jesus. I can be part of something with someone that I don't agree with when we recognize that this difference doesn't have to break our fellowship. So I think that the more that we humanize people by having personal interactions with them and not just disembodied exchanges over X or any other platform, the more we'll see that they're a lot more like us than we realize. Oh, you mean you like, you know, Lord of the Rings too? Or, oh, yeah, I shop at that same grocery store, and I price match because I like to save, you know, like when you realize these banal things about one another, you'll really be able to connect in a way that you can't when you're just slamming each other from a distance. Yeah, the sort of movement toward avatars is problematic. And I mean, I will say I don't think that's all digital. I will admit I am horrible in the car. I would say things about people who are driving in another car that I would never say if they were actually in the car with me. And so, yeah, that distancing, you know, that dehumanizing distance, right, where I know they're not really going to hear anything that I'm saying. I know that they're more of an anonymous human being to me at that moment, and I can do and say things, act in certain ways that they aren't really going to affect them. I think we've sort of developed that that sort of callousness, perhaps with our online presence, is we're basically looking at it and saying, well, this isn't a real person. This is a brand. This is an avatar of this person. This isn't really who they are. And so now what I need to do is I need to position my brand, my avatar over against them, and that's somehow OK. It's really interesting, I will say, from somebody who comes out of that, you know, sort of we've both been involved in academics. And so you see in academic work the way that different scholars interact with the work of other scholars. Yeah. And it can be very critical without being horrible, right? It can be really critical while still being generous. Yes. I think it's probably the better way to say it. And so what I would say is I'm not arguing against being critical. I think that critical thought and critical interaction is really important, but I do think that there has to be a generosity of spirit and a recognition that we are engaged in this dialogue together, that I'm not, you're not trying to shout me down. Yes. That is actually really crucial we not lose. Yes. And I've noticed that in academics, these commentaries and these high-level works that I reference when I'm preparing to teach, will quote and commend sources that if you know the things that they, their positions on certain issues, you'd be like, oh, you mean you still respect him even though he's egalitarian or even though he's a continuationist or even though all these things. But on a lay level on social media, I see people just dismissing anybody who holds to that view. And I'm like, do you realize that your guy, that one person that you love, that you divide over references this person whom you poo-poo his positions of all the time? So it's impressive to see academics. And many of them are pastors. It's not just professors and commentary writers in ivory towers. Many of the people that I have seen reference scholars that they disagree with on certain issues speak very highly of them in other issues. They can nuance their criticism and mostly praise them. I've just been very impressed with the Irenic nature of discourse in the academic realm. And I wish it were more commonplace on the lay level. Yeah. It's interesting to me. When I look at it, my temptation would be to say that the lay level may be just, you know, quote, I think this is my academic snobbery coming out. So I don't know that I actually believe this, but it goes through my head occasionally. It's like, well, maybe the lay level just can't handle the complexity. But I think that's untrue. I think they maybe haven't been trained to handle the complexity. And so there is a way of thinking that once you go through an upper level master's or a PhD program, there's a way of thinking that you just sort of, you're taught, you're trained in it now and you can do it. And so I think part of the challenge is that there's a real difference between what we see in the local church and the local congregation and how they interact with truth and the complexities of scripture versus the way that that happens all the time in academia. You know, I mean, there is a real difference there. And so now as we're getting more information out online, right, and people have the ability to read that information, maybe one of the things that we should focus on is, OK, but reading the information is different than actually being trained how to read the information, really understanding the complexities of these issues and how all this can kind of work together. And so I think as I've had opportunity to to do Bible studies with folks and different things like that, when I can draw the complexity in and help them understand, hey, look, here's all this ambiguity, stuff that we really don't know that scholars argue about all the time. That doesn't undercut the surety of the scriptures, but what it does is it does leave room for disagreement. It changes the way we understand these things and and can add little wrinkles here and there about what is and what is not correct. Absolutely. And I think that pastors in particular who shepherd a local flock have a responsibility to model that kind of nuance when they preach and when they teach, because they could be inadvertently, unintentionally perhaps, communicating this mentality that, oh, well, they're in the wrong. So they're just not as bright as we are. And I've seen that modeled, not necessarily right now, but in my years as a believer, I've seen the way in which the influence of a pastor can be so great. And so any of us who have influence have a responsibility, but I think pastors in particular have a responsibility because the lay people that have a non-nuanced kind of position that they articulate on the public square of social media tend to perhaps have a tradition of receiving those messages from what they're reading and what they're listening to, but also from their local church, perhaps. Yeah, I mean, there's a sense in which my daughters are in high school now, but they're, they come to me for math help, which is crazy because I'm horrible at math. But one of the things they often have to do, they have to show their work. I mean, just like when I was doing math, you show your work. You don't just come up with the answer. You actually have to show how you get there. And I think that what we're really talking about is sort of akin to that. You know, it's let's show our work. Let's not just give people the final answer that we've wrestled with all week or for months or for years or whatever. Like, let's show our work. Let's help them understand how we're getting there, why we're making the assertions we're making, because then that helps them understand how we're weighing evidence, how we're thinking about these different passages in relation to each other. And I think it gives that, so, you know, showing your work is, it seems to me, a nice analogy. Showing your work in math is kind of a nice analogy for what we need to be doing. Absolutely. And I think about the fact that that's, that's why I'm so passionate about the ministry the Lord's called me to of equipping women in Bible exposition, because we're, we're giving them the tools to do more than proof text when they have to explain what they believe. They need to understand the structure of a passage and the context and the connection to the meta-narrative of scripture and to the gospel and not just say, oh, well, you know, this verse says this and they can cherry pick. You can argue anything from scripture and false teachers do all the time. But the, the burden, the responsibility of the disciple of Jesus is to learn how to develop skills in interpretation so that we can articulate our faith and even our beliefs in secondary matters based on a thorough study and not just what suits us. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me, let me ask you this, because I think that we've, we've sort of touched on it, but I think it's probably a good place to kind of pivot to. As we're thinking about sort of these critical interactions between believers, what's the aim? Because I think that, you know, as we've, as we've talked through this, you know, one aim could be

Well, let's get to the truth. And I think that, you know, getting to the truth is actually not a bad aim. But it seems to be more than that. And so I'm wondering, you know, as we think about dialogue between Christians, as we think about critiquing one another's understanding of, you know, particular passages or theologies or God himself or how we interact in community, what are we really trying to do? What should be our telos and our aim? I think the first should be edification, whether it be the person that we're criticizing or the onlookers, you know, because whenever I see some exchanges on social media that get heated, I'm witnessing these actions. And sometimes it's very discouraging. So it's more than just the person hearing us, but whoever is bears witness of these conversations should be built up and not torn down by the exchange that takes place. And when we do this in community face to face with close friends, the edification levels ought to be even greater, even if they hurt, you know, like if someone calls me out and says, you know, Angie, I've noticed a tendency in your writing or in your teaching towards X, Y or Z, or Z as we say in Canada. I will, it might sting at first, but it's still for the purpose of edifying me. And I think that that should be our goal in any exchange. And secondly, I'm all for defending the truth. Okay? So if someone is attacking the Christian faith and is challenging our core beliefs, then I think that with gentleness and respect, we should be able to give an answer for the hope that lies within us. However, most people will not be won by a well-crafted argument. And as someone who ministered in the Muslim world, I had plenty of conversations where I think that I probably was more persuasive than my interlocutor. However, it's the love that we show to those who are outside of the family of God that wins people. Practicing hospitality, showing kindness to someone who's bereaved. There's those windows of opportunity that have a lot more to do with relationship than with our articulated defense of the truth. So all that to say that some people feel like they have a responsibility to defend the truth at all costs, even on secondary issues, when I think that even how you define truth is relative. And it's not that there isn't one right interpretation. It's rather that we can't be certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that we hold to the right interpretation. So I think that should foster a certain level of humility and grace and cause us to be able to shake hands afterwards, after we've, you know, sparred, knowing that when it's all said and done, maybe I'm wrong. Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's interesting, the sparring language. I love that, you know, when you think about there's something more to winning a fight than winning a fight. And so there's something about the way someone fights that actually matters. And so you can't just walk in and, you know, rabbit punch and, you know, hit below the belt and all those kind of things and then say you've won the fight. There has to be a, you're playing within the rules. And I think for Christians, when we're playing within the rules, that's going to demand a certain disposition from us, a certain way of approaching these things, a certain posture that isn't just about winning the argument. It's about winning the person. And that might sound a bit trite, but that's the general idea. It's like we have to exhibit and embody the peace, the confidence, the depth of conviction that we have in Christ as we're arguing these points. We can't just win at all costs. And so I find it really interesting. I mean, I think the way you describe that, it leads me to 1 Timothy 6.1 and Titus 2.5. And these are a couple of passages where Paul talks about the behaviors, certain behaviors within the community having the potential to revile God or His Word. And I just think we've underthought this aspect of who we are in Christ. Yes. The fact that our actions can actually cause God's Word and God Himself to be reviled, I think is a very important framing for how we think not just about how we would communicate publicly, you know, in teaching and training and doing podcasts and blogs, but also how people respond to that teaching. And so I don't know, any thoughts on those passages and this idea of reviling God and how these instructions might apply to Christians in our day? Absolutely. And I think about the verse, I think it's in Romans, it says the name of Christ is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you. That's a parallel passage. And it's sobering because I would hate for that to be the case of my public ministry that unbelievers would have justifiable cause for speaking ill of the gospel because I misrepresent it. And I think that sometimes people don't recognize that the gospel itself is offensive because it condemns sinners but then offers life. However, we don't need to add offense by our caustic, arrogant way of articulating what we believe. And so I think that sometimes when people are in a Christian bubble, when they perhaps came from a Christian home and came from a theologically robust family and tradition and continue to be immersed in a very Christian world, if we don't have contact with other believers, they might not even cross our mind as we are speaking publicly or writing publicly and the tendency to say things that are offensive, it might be more easily overlooked. Whereas I know, for example, that I have a neighbor who's an Orthodox Jewish woman and man, a couple, and I know that she reads some of my stuff and listens to some of my content. And so I keep her in the back of my mind. I keep my mom, who's not a believer in the back of my mind. And I think, how would my mom receive this article that I just published in TGC in Spanish? And so I think that when we consider our audience, it ought to keep us accountable to be winsome and make the gospel something that attracts rather than that repels because of our offensiveness. So let the gospel be offensive, but let's be quiet and gentle like Jesus was, or gentle and lowly like Jesus was. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. Yeah, I will say I find it sort of, I go back and forth, and this is how my tendency is to view this as the necessity for wisdom, right? I had an opportunity to write on the He Gets Us campaign. We just had the Super Bowl here in America, and so they had the He Gets Us ads on. And one of the things I said was, you know, this is, when Jesus first presents himself in public, he presents himself, he's very winsome. Everybody has an affinity toward him, and there's crowds gathered around him. And I think that's what the He Gets Us campaign is attempting to do. It's trying to draw that broad crowd. Now, at some point, we have to be willing to say the hard things. So John 6, you know, Jesus, I think it's John 6, if I'm getting that right. Jesus teaches about, you know, eating his flesh and drinking his blood. And then it talks about, you know, this is a hard teaching, and many of his disciples stopped following him. And so there's this tension that I think we have to keep in mind. It's like, yeah, when do we, when does the gospel, when do we, when do we speak the hard truth, right, as opposed to just, you know, sort of peddling the things that everybody will resonate with, right? When do we actually get down to that point of the exclusivity of the gospel? But again, that exclusivity is the scandalous part of the gospel, right? Most people aren't going to say, oh, no, we shouldn't love our neighbors, or, oh, no, you know, being nice to one another is a horrible idea. Like, most people aren't going to say that, but when you get down to, well, what, how do we define love? You know, it's Christ's sacrifice. That starts to get a little weird. And then we get to the point of, well, Christ is the only way.

to say the truth and the life, and that V is sort of, you know, narrowing. It means he's the only way and the only truth, the only life. That's, but that's the scandal of the gospel. And for us to, I think your point is well taken. When we disrupt people, when we, you know, when we create additional obstacles before getting to that point, it's not going to work out well. And so that's a really, I think we just need to think more about how it is that we go about blaspheming amongst the Gentiles, as you put it there, you know, from Romans. As we kind of get toward the end of the episode here, I wanna switch now to more practical concerns because I know there are a lot of people. I run into a lot of people who ask me, oh, I'd really love to start a podcast, or I'd really love to start blogging. What are some practical tips? Like I have not found this to be easy, you know, it requires a lot of logistics behind the scenes, scheduling, you know, editing, all that kind of fun stuff, right? Like it's not easy to do, especially if you don't have a team of people around you. I assume if you had a team, it'd be much easier, but I don't. So, you know, aside from the logistical stuff, how would you suggest people think about starting to speak publicly, whether they're doing podcasts, blogs, or even if they're just gonna respond to comments on Facebook? What would be some practical tips that you would give them to do what you're talking about, be more edifying to make sure that you're building the other people up? What does that really look like in practice? Well, I gave a breakout session at the TGC Canada Women's Conference last year. Well, I guess now it's the year before last on how women, and it was a women's conference. So I spoke on how women can podcast, blog, and teach for the church, like how that can be a source of edification. And so I gave, and I sent you the link to the article that I wrote that accompanied that. And the aim should be edification, like we said, and the accountability should still rest in the local church. So I work for a parachurch organization as a missionary, and then I blog. Now I have an advantage that you don't in that I have a team that does all of the editing and does all of the back office things to get the podcast online. But aside from those practical matters, I think that if we were to have a team praying for us and a team that is, that we run our content by, for example, if someone wants to start a podcast and they don't have the privilege of having a team of people who you collaborate with, then find a, you know, like how sometimes people will get in writing groups together and they'll send each other their articles or their proposals for books, things like that. I think it should be the same with podcasting or blogging. Just find a group of people that you respect and who are somewhat gifted in this area and ask them to give you feedback in exchange for giving them feedback. And I think that will keep us from drifting or from being overly schismatic in the areas that we choose to write in. And so that's helped me a lot. Just having people say, hey, I noticed that you're writing on this particular subject a lot. Do you think you wanna broaden your areas of contribution to this blog? Or, oh, what if you were to tackle this subject and so forth? So I think that writing in community or blogging and podcasting in particular in community would really prevent some of the pitfalls that some in the public square have because they seem to produce content that other people aren't saying, hold on a minute. Why would you publish that? Yeah. And do you have a sense? I think that's really good advice. Do you have a sense when you're talking to folks who are thinking about doing a blog or a podcast that, I think one of the things I really struggle with at the beginning of all of this and trying to think through whether I even wanted to do any of this was, you know, how frequently would I post and how many podcasts a week would you do and all that kind of stuff. And what I found is that I tended to overshoot what my capacity actually was and that without some sort of a clear cadence, it is possible for me to rush content that I don't really like. You know, there was a time there where I was writing too much and I just, I'd go back and reread what I wrote and didn't find it to be, to have sufficient substance. I didn't like it. It was basically parroting what everybody else was saying. And that's not what I was intending to do. And so I had to sort of put the brakes on myself and say, look, if it's just about releasing more content to get more views, that's the wrong aim here. The aim needs to serve something bigger than just, hey, let's build a platform. And so if that means taking more time and posting less frequently, then I have to do that. How do you help people think through those dynamics? I'm a classic overachiever. I wanna do it all. And I wanna, I push myself. No, no one's forcing me to publish or to do all the things that I'm involved in. And I love doing all of it. And sometimes I have to pitch things overboard and just say, okay, I know that I had wanted to publish like for the first three years that I was, that I had my own column at TPSG, the blog that I write for. I was producing weekly articles and it was, pardon me, it was a demanding pace because I was also hosting a weekly podcast at some point. And then I was working in equipping women in Bible exposition. And I realized that at some point I couldn't keep up and I had to start pitching things overboard. And so I think that sometimes what some people need is a rule of life. You know, so I have a friend named Jen Pollock Michel who does these rule of life workshops where she helps Christians to submit all of their agenda, their schedules, their life to the Lord and see where our priorities lie and how we can align God's will to what we have kind of sometimes even just stumbled into. And so I think that that might be a useful tool. And I can share the link to her website so you can share it with your followers about the possibility of signing up for one of those. But I haven't yet mastered this, but my goal is to work in my gifts and with the leading of the spirit and submitting to my husband and to my church leaders to continue to, and my mission to continue to walk in the steps that the Lord has opened doors for me in the paths that the Lord has opened for me and not take anything for granted, thinking that, okay, well, because I've always done this, I will continue to do that. But hold things with an open hand, I guess. Yeah, no, it's good. I think it's a real temptation in today's day and age to just rush forward and not really take that time. We'll definitely put the link to the rule of life piece in the show description. End of the day here, and I, as we're kind of closing up, I usually ask my guests one particular question. So I'm gonna surprise you with a question here. Here's what I almost always ask, and it's not intended to sort of critique the church in any sort of strong way, but, you know, as limited beings, we're always missing something. And so the question is, in your mind, from your experience, what is the church missing or neglecting that we need to be paying attention to in order to be and make disciples more faithfully today? Probably the greatest boost for the church, the greatest strengthening of the church would come if we recognize the priesthood of all believers. Because I think that we have this leadership laity divide and we think that it's the job of the pastor and the associate pastor, if your church even has one. I mean, in Quebec, very few pastors, churches have even a paid pastor. They have bivocational pastors in a lot of churches because the church is so small and struggling here. But even if you have a mega church and you seem to have a pastor and a paid staff member to meet all of your needs, that doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to take part in the Great Commission in whatever way the Lord is leading you. And so I think that when we allow ourselves to be passive members of the body of Christ, that is a mistake and it is a missed opportunity. And both leaders who don't mobilize their flock and individual believers are going to be held accountable for how they invested the talents that they were entrusted with. And I see errors on both sides, you know, when we kind of create barriers for involvement in service to certain people in the church. And also when people just think that checking something off a list, attending church on a Sunday and maybe another activity, if that, has full,

Told my duty as a Christian when we have so much more that we are called to do than a routine of attending Sunday worship and that's it. So I think that being the body of Christ in all of its glory, despite its blemishes that he is purifying away, would best be embodied in the priesthood of all believers in a very concrete ongoing way. So I love that answer. I'm wondering if you see in Canada something similar that we struggle with in the U S which is people viewing church as a voluntary activity that, you know, we, when we united with Christ in faith, we're automatically joined into the body of Christ as a, as a member. And just like you wouldn't, you know, chop one of your limbs off and say, well, it didn't want to be here anymore. So, you know, it has it, that's its choice, right? No, it's, it's kind of on there. Like it's connected. You know, the left arm is part of my body, whether it wants to be there or not, it's stuck. And I'm wondering if you see that sort of dynamic happening in Canada as well, where people tend to view this just as, oh, it's a way for me to raise my kids in a generally moral way. It's a, it's a, you know, a wonderful place to be so long as it doesn't challenge me as you know, too much, you know, that kind of vibe. Oh, we certainly see that. And especially since the pandemic, you know, now that most churches have services online, it's so easy to just stay home. One difference perhaps is that we don't have that Christian cultural background, you know, so certain parts of the United States have more of a cultural heritage of church going. I'm from California. So in California, that wasn't necessarily the same thing that everyone goes to church on Sundays as much as perhaps in, you know, this, the deep South. But the, the difference in Quebec would be that fewer people bother with religion that isn't. More than a label. However, interestingly enough, in immigrant communities, which is half the church in Quebec is composed of immigrants. And so sometimes they have imported some of those traditions here so that there's people who attend church because, well, back in my home country, it would have been unthinkable not to go to church. But I don't see them, um, outside of the Sunday service and I don't tend to see them after because many will leave right away. So in that sense, we do see some of that, but I think that the, the church is more and more recognizing that the pandemic did kind of purify some of those, uh, attendees out so that more and more we're seeing people who chose to stick around after it became convenient not to, are more likely to remain. I love the way you phrased that when it became convenient not to. Yeah, and I mean, it just puts more impetus back on what you said, you know, recognizing the priesthood of the believers, really training believers to understand their role in the body of Christ and, and helping them to sort of dive deep into scripture and theology so that they can have that knowledge and really delight in the law of the Lord, you know, take pleasure in obedience, um, and be disciples of Christ becomes that much more important. So very good. Well, Angie, I've enjoyed this conversation. I want to respect your time and, um, kind of get you out of here, but it's, uh, it's been really nice to catch up with you. Uh, I know we haven't seen each other in forever, probably. I mean, it's, I don't even remember. I don't really remember when I graduated. 2003. 2003. Is that one? I think I, I think I was a little late bloomer. I think I might've done 2004 because I started, yeah. Um, I had one extra class that I had to take. So anyway, but it's been great to see you and great to talk through some of these issues and, um, just thanks for the ministry that you're doing in all three languages. Um, I will just say I found it comical when you, when you wrote back to me on Facebook and said, well, you know, English isn't my first language. And I remember thinking to myself, I'm like, I would have no shot in Spanish or French. And so, uh, kudos to you for doing this. This has been fantastic. And I just really appreciate your insights and your ministry. And so, uh, thanks for being here. Thanks a lot, James. All right, folks, check out the links in the show description to the different things that we mentioned throughout the podcast. And we will catch on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Thanks, everybody. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian Podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Hi, I'm Dr. Michelle Bankson, a board-certified clinical neuropsychologist and host of your Hope-Filled Perspective podcast. After 30 years in the mental health field, I am passionate about helping you regain hope and transform your life. Join me and my amazing guests as we tackle real-life struggles with compassion, vulnerability, and biblically-based insights. If you're ready to renew your mind and find practical solutions to life's most common concerns, subscribe now on your favorite podcast platform.