Alan Noble | You Are Not Your Own: Resisting the Gospel of Radical Autonomy

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, before we start today's episode, I want to take a moment to tell you about usefultogod.com. From online courses to free downloadable study guides, I'm confident you'll find something to help you live faithfully in today's world. You can also check out some of my books, including Christian Resistance, Serpents and Doves, and my most recent contribution, The D.L. Moody Essentials Collection. As always, if you find this podcast valuable, take a second to like, share, and leave a positive review. It really does make a difference. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to our YouTube channel for even more content to equip and encourage you. Now, let's get into today's episode. Hey, everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I am joined today by Dr. Alan Noble. He's an associate professor at Oklahoma Baptist, and he's also the author of a new book from InterVarsity Press called You Are Not Your Own. And so we're going to be talking a little bit about what that means, what that means for us practically in our day-to-day lives, but also what it means not to be our own in today's world. So, Alan, great to have you here, man. Thanks for being on the podcast. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. So why don't we start just what got you into, well, let's talk a little bit about the title. You are not your own. And maybe what you mean by that and why this topic was of such interest to you. Yeah. So what sort of sparked this whole project was wrestling with a big question, and that is, what was making contemporary life so difficult for so many people? At the time I was writing this book, my wife was struggling with being a stay-at-home mother. And many people I knew were struggling with just day-to-day life. As I looked out, I happened to live in Oklahoma, and we have medical marijuana. And this comes up in the book. And medical marijuana dispensaries were popping up everywhere. It had just been legalized and they were popping up everywhere, and signs and billboards were popping up everywhere. And they were just advertising this escapism, really, just this attitude of, if life is hard, this is what you need to get out of life. And it just struck me that, it just occurred to me that a lot of people found life really difficult. And so I was overwhelmed with that reality that a lot of people found contemporary life to be very, very difficult. In my own personal experience and in my family, people who weren't turning to drugs like my wife. My wife was not turning to drugs, by the way, just to be clear. But who was trying to be a stay-at-home mom who was finding it very isolating, very alienating, and very difficult. And clearly lots of regular day-to-day people were just finding life unbearable. And then I was in church. I'm Presbyterian, even though I teach at a Baptist institution. I'm Presbyterian, and we always recite a creed or in our liturgy. And so we recited the Heidelberg Catechism, our creed, or something from a catechism. And we recited the first question and answer from the Heidelberg Catechism in our liturgy one Sunday. And that is, what is your only hope in life and in death? And that is that we are not our own, but belong body and soul in life and in death to our faithful Savior, Jesus Christ. And it goes on from there. And that struck me as I was sitting there in the pews that, wow, how much of contemporary life, how much of the problems of contemporary life hinge on this reality, this idea that we are taught that we are our own. Um, and I kind of just started to explore that as maybe the core of this problem. You know, how much of this problem that I'm seeing throughout society is based on this idea that we are our own and we belong to ourselves. And I just teased that idea out in my own thinking and saw, could that, could that be the case? And so I explored it and I did research and it made sense as a reasonable hypothesis. And so that's the book. Yeah. And I think to clarify, when you're talking about life being unbearable, um, obviously you're not excluding traumatic events, right? You know, the, the big events of life that might happen, death or, you know, illness or what have you, poverty, you know, losing a job, stuff like that. But it seems like what you're also addressing in the book and maybe primarily addressing, and you can correct me if I'm wrong on that, are the, is really the tension of almost fitting within society. So in other words, um, this sort of, um, I don't even know how to banal social pressure, right? That's telling you, you should be something or that you should have something or that you should, um, you know, be something. And because you're not that, then ultimately you start to feel these sort of pushes and pulls in your own life saying, should I be that? Should I do that? You know, is that a fair way of kind of articulating it? No, that's a great, I'm glad you clarified. Yeah. So it's not the big life jolts that I'm primarily concerned with, although they can be very triggering. Right. It's the, it's the million or billion little indignities of daily life that I'm talking about. The indignities of daily life that are, are based on this, what I call a false anthropology. And so the, the analogy that I give in the book is of, of being a caged animal. And so I, I use this analogy of, uh, zoochosis. And so if you go to a zoo, you will see, um, caged, certain caged animals, um, bears, tigers, lions, coyotes, and they, you will see them pacing back and forth, back and forth. Um, I used to, um, I graduated from Baylor and they have bears or they had bears. I don't know if they have them anymore. I think they both passed, but they had bears on campus, live bears on campus. And every time I went to see them, I would see them pacing back and forth and back and forth. And they lived in these great habitats, beautiful habitats. They had better living conditions than I had as a grad student. They really did. And, um, and yet they would just pace all day. They would wear out this grass. They had grass. We didn't have grass. We had in our, in our apartment complex, but they would wear out this grass down to dirt. Um, and you could tell that they were unwell. They were mentally unwell. And the reason for that is that they had a psychosis of being caged, which is called zoochosis. Um, and, and the, the cause of this is that they have, they're not meant to be in this caged environment. And I think similarly, we are in an environment that is created for people who are built, for people who are, um, for people who are supposed to be their own and belong to themselves. And that's not who we are. So of course, we're going to feel anxious. Of course, we're going to feel upset. And what's striking to me when I did research on zoochosis, the primary way they treat it is antidepressants and enrichment activities. And when I read that, I thought, that's me. Like, that's how I'm treated. I'm treated. That's when, when I feel anxious and upset, they tell me to take antidepressants and watch Netflix and go for a run. Like that's, it's the same thing. Right. Because I'm also in an environment that's not built for me because God created me to belong to him and belong to other people. But my environment, the laws, the cultural norms, the expectations that are put on me are all based on this idea that I have to belong to myself. Yeah. And that puts pressure on me that I wasn't meant to bear. And so of course, I'm going to feel anxious. Of course, I'm going to feel out of place. And so that creates all these...

million little indignities and frustrations and anxieties and insecurities and inadequacies that just build up. So again, yeah, you're absolutely right. It's not the big jolts. It's not the traumas that I'm primarily talking about here. It's the little indignities that just build up and wear on us. And then we turn to coping mechanisms like distracting addictions, like pornography, like whatever it might be, sports gambling. There's a lot of different outlets that we turn to, to feel alive. It's interesting. I was doing some reading on theology of work for a course I'm developing, but one of the articles I ran across was on the Proverbs 31 woman and talking about embodied cognition and the way that the Proverbs 31 woman uses her hands. And particularly in comparison to a sluggard or, you know, the slothful person who uses their hands and doesn't use their hands. And the argument of the paper was that the symbolism of the hands is as the Proverbs 31 woman gets involved in the world, as she's doing things in the world, it enhances her wisdom. But I think part of what the paper assumes is that she had wisdom in the first place, which is that sort of the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And so now as she's engaging in the world, that wisdom can increase. But what I think you're, what I saw in your book as I was reading it and sort of pulling those two together was what you're really saying is if you don't start in the right place, all of these other things become coping mechanisms. They can be good things, but if you're really just trying to reinforce a false anthropology with them, you're not going to get to a true anthropology, right, just by doing these activities, where if you start with a true anthropology, some of these things now have and they take on an appropriate meaning and appropriate fitness within society and appropriate, you know. And so it was sort of fascinating to see those two juxtaposed because that whole meaning crisis, and I don't know how familiar you are with some of that discourse with like John Verveke or whomever. Whenever I listen to his stuff, I'm sort of captivated. I find it interesting, but I also have to sort of recontextualize it all back into a more theological mode because really there's nothing on offer there that the wrong, that can correct the wrong starting point. Right. Right. Yeah, no, I think that's right. Yeah, so there are many things that we can do that are valuable, that are good, that are God-honoring. For example, exercise can be a valuable thing, but for, I think, many contemporary people, it can become a coping mechanism because it is a form of escape. It's a form of achievement. It's a form of feeling an inadequacy that they have, that they feel because they feel like they need to achieve some sort of excellence in order to validate their existence in the world because going back to this meaning crisis, they feel they're under the assumption, they're under this false anthropology which says that they belong to themselves, and if they belong to themselves, and this is part of the premise of the book, if they belong to themselves, then they have the responsibility to create meaning and justification and purpose for themselves. And one of the ways they can do that is to make themselves beautiful, to make themselves attractive, to make themselves excellent in every field of their, you know, every aspect of their lives. And so they have to press into themselves and press into their bodies. And of course, it is good to be excellent, but when you're doing that in order to justify your existence, you're just going to feel inadequate. You're only going to feel, you're only going to fall short and feel more inadequate. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up, and many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. What I think that's one of the parts of your book that I really enjoyed was the conversation around justifying cultural narratives that justify us being our own and how that sort of operates and works. It has sort of this affirming effect. Hey, you're your own, right? But then it also has a deforming effect or, you know, yeah, I think a deforming effect is probably right. And you kind of deal with that in chapters. Can you talk through a little bit of that, how society sort of helps us justify a story where we are our own masters versus the way society then comes swings back around and almost enslaves us? Yeah. Yeah, so this is one of the great double binds of our time. On the one hand, society tells us great news. You are radically free. This is great news. You're radically, radically free. The existentialists are great on this point. Sartre, in particular, you are radically free. You get to create yourself. There is no human nature, Sartre says, because there is no God. So you get to create who you are and become whoever you want to be. This is the reality for all of us. And the universe is open wide. You get to create standards for yourself, create meaning for yourself, create purpose for yourself. Oh, some bad news. You also have to create meaning for yourself. And it's also really hard. And there's no support. But we'll sell you some supports. We'll sell you narratives. We'll sell you products. We'll sell you services. We'll sell you all these things to help you along the way. But in selling you these things, they're also going to tend to be addictive. They're going to tend to be things that require more and more. So, for example, I mean, to me, the pinnacle example, the perfect example is social media, right? So, for example, identity is the big one for our time, right? So you have to create an identity for yourself. Identities are no longer given. They're no longer something that you inherit. You no longer have a name that's given to you, an identity grounded in place, in relation to other people based on your family, your church, your career, all these sorts of things. Instead, identity is something that you create for yourself. You actually throw off the shackles of your family, throw off the shackles of your community and your religious tradition and your whatever, and you just create your own identity. That's actually the modern hero story that I'm pretty sure I argue this in this book, if not I've argued it elsewhere. That's the modern hero story is that you create your own identity by throwing off these shackles. And so you do that. But the problem is that you have to project that identity. You have to constantly announce that identity in a process called expressive individualism. You have to announce that to everybody else constantly in order to feel alive because otherwise, how do you know your identity is being seen? Every identity has to have a witness. This is the nature of identity. Every identity has to have a witness. Somebody else has to be out there who can point at you and say, ah, there you are, Alan. I see you. You're there. When we had traditional identities, you had communities that gave you that witness. Now those are gone. So now you need other people affirming you. But here's the problem. We also don't want other people affirming us because we're standing alone. We're autonomous. We're ourselves. We don't need other people to affirm us or put us in a box. And so there's a contradiction built into modern identities. So here we are. We're autonomous people. We're projecting our identities out into the world. And social media says, hey, here's what we'll do. We'll sell you tools to express yourself. And we'll sell you tools to announce your opinions, to show your image, to promote your

brand to craft who you are, to sell videos of yourself, you know, to do all of these things, to market yourself. But the problem is, is that you're never going to feel like it's enough. You're always going to feel like you have to be on and promoting and, you know, constantly addicted. And that's what's happened. And you only feel more in adequate as you go on. So society gives you this freedom, and then it says, actually, it's a burden. And then it says, oh, by the way, we'll give you tools to help you meet this burden, but those tools are always inadequate and they are always addictive. They fail to meet the task. And so we just end up striving and, you know, the cover of my book is Sisyphus pushing a boulder up a hill, because that's what ends up happening. You end up pushing this boulder up a hill for eternity. So I think it's interesting, the idea that I agree with you on social media. I think that a lot of times what's being presented there is oddly, I want to be unique, but I'd also like everyone to affirm my uniqueness. And that's measured in likes and positive comments or what have you. Maybe sometimes it's measured in negative comments. I mean, you see that an awful lot, too, right? People just sort of revel in the negative comments that they get. They almost wear it as a badge of honor. But yeah, I do think that we've lost something that we probably need to try to recapture, which is that more local communal element where we fit within a grouping and have identity there. And our contributions don't have to be showy or flashy. They're recognized because they're actually helping other people. It isn't clear that, you know, everything we do on social media, in fact, I'd say it is clear that not everything we do on social media is actually helping people. Right. And so it's not contributing really to a community. It's just content that's put out there as fodder for, you know, social media companies to get more attention. And so it's an interesting dynamic that we've shifted here. It's almost like we've become more commerce driven, right? We've identified ourselves as commercial beings in some way where we have to sell this image to other people. And I do, I've been thankful that my children haven't gravitated at all towards social media. I mean, we kept them off it for a very, very long time, but even now, like I have a 19 year old, he has no interest in social media, doesn't have anything to do with it. He's a history major. He owns it with, you know, he's like, I just, he likes to sit around and read books and I think that's fantastic for him. And so I worry about the next generation. What are we setting them up for as far as even just unrealistic expectations of additional societal pressures of the sort that you're talking about? And you mentioned your wife struggling being a stay at home mom. Yeah. I can remember a time when my wife struggled with that as well. But now you think about the other social pressures that are leaning into younger generations to be something better is probably the way they would phrase it. And it's just, it feels suffocating when I look at it. It feels like it would be suffocating. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I feel, you know, so I work with college students every, you know, this is my job and I feel this pressure for them a lot. In fact, I have a lot of students who meet with me and they feel a lot of anxiety about, you know, what does it look like to have a job that is not just, you know, paying the bills, but is, is meaningful, is something significant. And I have to spend a lot of time working with them, encouraging them to see that, you know, God gives us a good work to do that is before us, that is just good work for our communities, that it doesn't have to be this grand, I'm saving the world agenda that, you know, if we're faithful to what God puts before us, then that's good, that that's honoring to God. But they do feel like the world is upon their shoulders, that they have to do something tremendous in order to, to validate something in order to stand out in order to, to feel like they've accomplished something. And so a lot of what I do is talking to them about, you know, how their duty is to honor God where they are and that's it. And that's, and that's enough. And that's good. And that, and that I think goes directly back to this idea that, that they have been trained to think from society that they are their own and they belong to themselves. Because if you believe that, if you've ingested that idea, then, then you think, well, I've got one shot at life and I've got to make it count. I've got to make it something significant. But if you believe that you are not your own, but belong to God, then your duty is to be faithful where God has put you. And you know that your faithfulness is, is going to be accomplished through God's work in your life. And maybe he has, and he does have great things planned for you, but that greatness is defined by him, not by the world's standards and not by your standards. And that, that radically changes, that radically changes things. Whereas if you are your own, then, then, you know, greatness is defined by your standards. Literally, it is defined by your standards. And so you have to do something great by your standards. It's only your standards that matter. And that pressure can just be crushing. And so often what I see is choice paralysis. I see a lot of choice paralysis with young people. They, they get to the end of their college career or, and they just, they just fold into themselves. They just feel like, I don't know what I'm going to do. You know, I've been on autopilot through high school and college and now what am I, what am I supposed to do with this thing that this degree? And I want to do something. I know I have to do something, but yeah, I'm afraid, I'm afraid of failing. I'm afraid of doing something that's not meaningful. I'm afraid of, I'm afraid. And so they just, they just fold up. They fold in. And that's why I use that example of Sylvia Plath, the bell jar as in, in the book, because I think that it resonates with a lot of students. No, it's really good. And I, as you're talking there, you know, passages come to my head, first Corinthians seven, where Paul's talking about, you know, remain as you were called. And I don't think what Paul is saying there is never change anything. If Jesus called you like this, then you have to stay like this the rest of your life. What he's trying to get at is, I mean, even his reference to bondservants, you know, if you're a bondservant, somebody made a bondservant, but if you can gain your freedom, go for it. You know, he's not denying change there. What he's saying is you don't have to change your life before you serve God. You can serve God right where you are. And I think that's, that's part of what, you know, I'm hearing you say is yeah, wherever it is that we're situated, we need to be content in that situation and be serving God within that situation. And that is all we need to do. There's nothing more there. The idea of godly ambition doesn't say I need to do this on a bigger scale necessarily. It's, it's about preparing there. And then the other passage I'd say is, you know, Paul's metaphor of the body. You know, if you're an ear, don't think, oh man, I wish I were an eye or a foot or something like that. Like own your fittedness within the body of Christ. And so I think that sort of lends itself to another question. And you, you sort of hint at it in the book you talk about in the book, but I'm wondering if you can just talk a little bit about how you see the church as necessary to a process of recognizing that we don't belong to ourselves. Oh man. I mean, I think the church is, is absolutely central to this, to this work. The church is the central body through which we practice not belonging to ourselves. Um, and, and we do that, um, through, um, meeting weekly and, um, uh, through, uh, the Lord's supper, we practice not belonging to ourselves and we practice, um, you know, belonging to Christ. Um, we, um, practice serving each other, um, through, um, you know, you know, the needs of the body, um, providing for each other, um, giving to each other, um, serving each other in various ways. Um, you know, some of this is, is ideal. I don't want to say idealistic. I mean, it's, it's the way that the church ought to be run and, uh, not all churches do this, but this is, um, this is how God, this is how Christ intended the church to be, right? This is how Christ intended the church to be. And if, and, and churches where this is functioning properly, um, you know, this is how, uh, we belong. This is how we practice belonging to God. And, and I also think, and I talk about this in the book, you know, we belong.

To the church as well. I mean, we literally are the body of Christ, and so there is a belonging that we have to the church, that there's obligations and there are duties there, and that creates, I think, you know, a kind of friction or a kind of, I think that's a little upsetting or a little challenging for some modern Americans who want to be, you know, the norm is radical autonomy, but, you know, taking church vows and committing themselves to a church and saying, you know, I'm going to be a member of this church. I'm going to be a part of this body is quite a commitment if they take it seriously. If they don't just view it as, you know, I'm just gonna shop at this church, right? If they really say, no, I'm going to invest myself, I'm going to commit myself to this body, that's a lot, and that's where we practice. We practice, you know, walking with others through suffering and through joy. That's where we practice ministering to others and serving each other. As I said, you know, living through hard times and good times, reaching out and ministering to others. You know, this is, you know, the church, I think, is where a lot of this takes place. And the church is also where I think we can practice teaching that we don't belong to ourselves, right? This is where, you know, I think churches should be alternate spaces where the world's message that we belong to ourselves gets challenged and gets pushed back on. So, in other words, churches ought to be spaces where, you know, expressive individualism, this constant branding and identity promotion, isn't seen. Churches ought to be spaces where people feel that their personhood is validated, not because of their works, but because of who they are in Christ. Yeah. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up, and many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. No, it's good. Given the way you ended your book, and I appreciated you not going back into self-help mode. Here are the five things you need to do in order to not belong to yourself anymore, right? I thought that was the wise way to end. But I found myself sort of thinking about it and the sort of, for lack of a better term, ownership that this mentality has on us, that we do belong to ourselves, that we do need to establish a brand, and that we are prone to self-medication. Do you feel like the commitment you're talking about to the local church, a true commitment, not just an attendance, and I would say probably the need to reform in certain churches away from identity and branding. I don't know much about the Presbyterian church, but my experience with higher church sort of denominations, I grew up Lutheran, is that there isn't a superstar. Right. It's much more liturgically driven. And so, yes, you get a sermon, or we got a homily, but that wasn't the highlight of the service. It was an aspect of the service that is built in. And, you know, you have a liturgy that is almost de-emphasizing the person up front as opposed to overemphasizing the person up front. Whereas in a lot of evangelical churches that I've been to, megachurches, those kind of things, you do tend to have a star on stage. Yeah. Everything is arranged that way. And so it almost reinforces this idea that these are the folks that you really want to be like. This is what you're really aspiring to. If you enter a ministry, this is what you want it to look like, that kind of feel. It just seems to me that even our context within a lot of churches lends itself to self-medication as opposed to the sort of commitment that you're talking about. And it just leads me to think, I mean, we just need some sort of reform within the church to say, no, churches don't belong to themselves either. Yeah. Yeah. Does that does that ring true with you? Yeah. No, I think that's, yes, yes, I think it does. I think that, you know, I don't want to, yeah, I, you know, I want to be, I want to admonish and encourage churches without being too, you know, I want to inspire churches. Let's put it that way. Yeah. But I would say that there are some churches that take their cues too much from corporations and businesses and too little from the gospel. And what I mean by that is that they take their focus so much from marketing cues in the corporate world and branding. And you know, there are some things that we can take from that, but my concern is that if your focus is on building an image of a church, then the result might be that you create an institution that is very insular and very self-focused, just like you described. It's built for itself rather than something that is for the kingdom and not for itself. You know, the church is not its own. It belongs to Christ. It's Christ's church. And I worry that some churches seem to be for the pastor or for, you know, for a select group, for an elite group, or for even for the congregation, you know, but not really for the kingdom, for a click. And so there are dangers there that can be avoided if you are careful. And so I would just encourage people to just, you know, just see what you're emphasizing and emphasizing with your marketing and with your agendas and your programming. You know, are you pushing the kingdom or are you, is your, is your focus on building a kingdom of your own, really? That's the concern I have. Well, as we, as we think about that, and we're getting kind of close to the end of the episode here, but you mentioned in, I think it was maybe the last chapter of the book, you talk about, you know, one of your concerns being that people think that you're really just saying, well, just adjust your anthropology, get the right anthropology and everything will be okay. And so the message of the book isn't, hey, just adjust your anthropology, although that's part of it. Yes. What would you say you want people really walking away from this with? What's your main sort of baseline message? Hey, how do I, how do I turn the corner from thinking that I own myself, that I belong to myself and recognizing that I actually, that Christ has a claim on me, that reality has a claim on me, that I'm, you know, I'm obliged to, you know, be more attuned with the triune God that I profess to serve. What are you, what would you say to someone who's like, okay, now what? Yeah. So I would say two things. I would say the first part is exactly that, is that you do need to get your anthropology right. You do need to hear the good news, really. I mean, that, that is the good news. I want people to understand the gospel truth that they are not their own, but belong to God because my argument is that everyone who buys the anthropology that they belong to themselves, they have been sold a lie. And that lie is that it's liberating to belong to yourself, that it's, that that's the good news. That's the modern lie is that it's good news to be radically free. And it turns out, I argue in the book that it's actually really not. That is a form of bondage and that it's not liberating and it's awful.

And that the real good news is that you don't belong to yourself. You were never made to belong to yourself. You were made to belong to God. And that lifts the burden of all these burdens I've been talking about, that I talk about in the book, get lifted off your shoulders when you acknowledge that and accept that and embrace that. But, however, so that's the first part. However, society, the other reality is society is still gonna try to put those burdens back on your shoulders. And life is still gonna be hard. And you're gonna have to do the work of resisting. You're gonna have to do the work of saying, no, that is not reality. And so a great example of that is my wife, who, when she was a stay-at-home mom, you know, so she, she knew that her value was not in being, her worth was not in how much money she earned. But society said, no, your worth is in how much money you earned. And so she had to do the work of pushing that burden off of her shoulders. And that's the reality for all of us. All of us, society is still gonna say, hey, you have to create your own identity, and we're gonna have to do the work of saying, no, I don't. My identity is in Christ. My identity is in Christ's loving gaze, which is always upon us. So I want us to be realistic, and I want us to recognize that society is still going to put upon us these demands that we're gonna have to push back against. And while at the same time, there is a freedom that we have in getting our anthropology straight. It's interesting when you talk about, I wrote a book a few years back called Christian Resistance, and whenever people would ask me what I mean by Christian resistance, I usually use the picture of a dam. And I say a dam's job is to hold its shape despite all the pressures that are coming against it, right? It's to hold its shape. And I think the body of Christ has that as at least an aspect of its function, is to just hold its shape despite the pressures that are coming against it. You know, don't crack down the middle just because society says X, Y, or Z. We are rooted in Christ and we have to hold that shape. We're supposed to be cruciform. And so we're supposed to look like Christ, be conformed to his image. And when we allow ourselves that shape to be determined by the cultural pressures, we're actually deforming away from the image of Christ as opposed to conforming toward the image of Christ. And I think that kind of resonates with the way you're thinking about it, yes? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, dude, I really enjoyed this book. I thought it was great. I think you're definitely on to something with the we are not our own idea. I had never thought of it that way. Obviously, you know, I just don't think I hadn't thought about it in the way that you phrased it. And so I really appreciated the way you ran that theme all the way through the book. And then, like I said, I especially liked the fact that you didn't give me the five tips for learning to belong to Christ at the end of it. You resisted the self-help aspect. I loved it. Yeah. So, well, hey, is there anything else? I know you got the book. We're going to put that link in the show notes. Is there anywhere else that people could connect with you? Sure, yeah. You can find me at oallanoble.com. You can find my substack and my other books and keep track of me there. Very cool. We'll put that in the show notes as well. And I just really appreciate you being here. I appreciate you writing the book. And yeah, thanks for a great conversation. Yeah, thanks. All right, everybody, we'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care, everybody. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Are you seeking to deepen your faith and embrace your identity in Christ? Then tune in to the Bought and Beloved Christian podcast hosted by me, Kirby Kelly. Join me each week as we dive into God's word, explore its truths, and learn how to live out our faith boldly. Whether you're new to the faith or looking to grow closer to God, the Bought and Beloved podcast offers insightful discussions, heartfelt encouragement, and practical advice for your spiritual journey. Subscribe now on your favorite podcast platform and let's walk this faith journey together here on the Bought and Beloved podcast.