Thinking Freely (and Christianly) with Darren Mulligan of We Are Messengers

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I am excited today. Nate has brought us yet another awesome guest. And I'm actually going to let Nate introduce him. So they've known each other for a while, so I'm going to let Nate do the honors here. Go ahead, Nate. Yeah, Darren Mulligan from We Are Messengers. If you haven't heard their music, you need to check it out. He has an incredible way of being used by God at his live shows and live streams. And we're just really thrilled to have and introduce to you guys our friend Darren Mulligan from We Are Messengers. Cheers. Thanks for having me, boys. Appreciate it. Yeah. So, man, just tell us a little bit about your story. I mean, you know, obviously, We Are Messengers, you know, you're a performer. You're, you know, you're doing your thing. But how did you how'd you come to faith? What was your story of coming to Jesus? You know, when did he take hold of your life? Yeah, I came to Jesus, you know, when I was older. You know, when I say I came to Jesus, that's not theologically correct. Jesus came to me. He ran into my grave and pulled me out of the death that I loved. And he has transformed my life. And I'm still a mess. Let's just, before we do any other like talking, we have to acknowledge that, that too often you have men who stand on stage and say things like I was a mess before Jesus, but the truth is I'm still a mess with Jesus. And my sins may be many, but his mercy is more. And so when I was, when I was 27, my girlfriend at the time had a completely radical encounter with God where he rescued her, like rescued her. And I'm not talking Hallmark rescuing. I'm talking proper rescuing you from, you know, from all of it. And I was an atheist. I was promiscuous. I was drunken. I was a violent man. I was an angry man. And a few weeks before we got married, she led me to Jesus in my hometown in Monaghan in Ireland. And the truth be told, I came to Jesus not because, well, truth be told, Jesus rescued me and gave me eyes to see that he was God, but I really wanted him because I knew he was real and I knew I was dead. I knew my sin would ultimately destroy me. But a year after we got married, I confessed to my wife everything I'd done, you know, before we had got married, you know, strange places and things and stuff. And the kind of things that deserved stone, you know, I deserved stones to be thrown. I deserved all of the punishment that my behavior, you know, warranted, but she had been with Jesus in a way that I hadn't been. I'd been with Jesus because I was terrified of him. And she had been with Jesus because she was deeply loved by him. And so she didn't push me away. She put her arms around me and kissed me and said, I forgive you. And because of that, I fell in love with God. And so I stayed with God initially because of fear. But what has kept me with Jesus is kindness, mercy and love. And, you know, in my in my life doing what I do, sometimes the tendency is to to be a sledgehammer because that's my proclivity as an Irishman, you know, but it is not fury and judgment and wrath and righteousness, self-righteousness. It is the kindness of God that draws men onto salvation and redemption and repentance. And that's the business I'm in. I'm in the business of telling prostitutes and beggars, thieves and adulterers, the outcast, the marginalized and the immigrant that there's room for you at the table. You know, that's it. That's so good. I love that. So walk us through when you came over to the States, you weren't really doing music much before. And then when God got a hold of you and changed your life, that correctly, you just picked up a guitar and you started worshiping and then God just one thing led to another and God opened doors for you to pursue music. Yeah, it's pretty complicated. You know, before I knew Jesus, I played in heavy metal bands and screamo bands as a guitar player. And I always loved music because I watched my mom and dad dancing in the kitchen when I was young, and I thought that music could take you away from, you know, the hardest things in your life. And when I started following Jesus, I realized that music was an idol in my life. It was a crutch I leaned on and I had used it to sin in ways I'd wanted to sin. And so I associated all of the promiscuity, all of the violence, all of the drunkenness with music. And so I did what I thought you had to do as a Christian, which is give everything up, you know, like quit everything you enjoy. And it's so silly when I look back at it. But I was so enthralled by Jesus that I didn't want to risk it. But the truth is, I didn't think he was big enough to keep me from myself. You know, so I quit playing music, sold all my guitars, went completely cold turkey. Also stopped drinking Guinness. I stopped drinking anything cold turkey completely. That's another story for another day. But a couple of years after that, I was in our little church and they needed someone to play acoustic. I said, I'll do it. Two years later, so two years of doing nothing, sat in the back, 100 people playing my wee acoustic, singing along. I remember chatting with Magpie all the other night and I was saying, dude, we used to sing your songs in church and I would play the acoustic to them. And then someone came along and said they needed a guitar player for a youth mission. And I said, okay. And then they said, would you sing? And I said, I've never sang in my life. I don't sing. I can't sing. And I was what, 30? And so we did this little youth mission. I sang some songs. And for three years, we traveled around in our cars telling people about Jesus, telling 10 people, 12 people, 15 people what we knew about God. And it was the sweetest time in all of my musical career, if you want to put it like that. There was nothing in it for me. There was nothing to gain. It was only giving yourself away. And it was lovely. But in 2014, I was outside my oldest boy's school. And that's where I went to school. And I remember sitting in the car, uh, and I said out loud, I said, God, I don't need music anymore. I just want Jesus. Uh, and the next day, Warner brothers called me from Nashville and they had offered us a record deal seven days later. Uh, and I, uh, I didn't want it. I didn't want it. You know, I didn't want to leave the people I loved, the community I had, this simple ordinary life with Jesus. I didn't want to be away from my mom and dad. You know, I had all of this gospel and evangelizing in me. And I knew in moving to America, I was leaving people that really needed that. And, uh, but we did faithfully. My wife and I and our three kids arrived in Franklin, Tennessee in 2014 with four suitcases sleeping on an air mattress in Downer Cool Springs. And I remember with my arms around my wife that night, just saying, we've made a mistake, you know? And the next morning I got off and went to work and, uh, we wrote everything comes alive, magnified, point to you, songs like that. And first record took off and, you know, we've been touring the world ever since. And it's been amazing in many ways, but awful. And, uh, what's really cool is I haven't really told many people this. The full circle moment is this in that we've gone from Ireland for nine years, but we moved home in May, uh, back to our community. We go to the same church we came to Jesus in and I played acoustic guitar and you know, but what's really cool is my wife led my little brother Mark to Jesus a year after me. And he drummed, he drummed in that first little band with us, you know, and when we came out to America, I knew the record deal was just for me, but I offered it to everyone in that little team. And one by one, they said they couldn't go. They were called to other things. Um, and my little brother, I remember him saying, we're called to be Paul and Barnabas. We have to go our own ways. You know? And I remember saying at the time, I want to be there for him to help him grow in his faith. And I want to be there for my mom and dad and my brothers and my sister to try and share Jesus. And there I was, you know, prancing around stages all over the world, you know, but not doing those simple, ordinary things. But what has happened is my little brother

I then went on to be a deacon in our church and do steady, beautiful work behind the scenes where no one's clapping, no one's applauding, no one's giving awards, but Jesus, you know. And he got to lead my older sister to Jesus a couple of years ago, and she was, you know, she's lived a hard life too, and incredible to see the transformation in her life. And then we moved home, and just before we moved home to Ireland, I got a call from my mom and dad sitting in Franklin, Tennessee, nine years later, and they just said on the phone, they said, Darren, we just wanted to tell you that we have given our lives to Jesus at 76 years old. Wow. You know, and so even when I thought I had abandoned the people that needed me the most, God's for care of business. He's just like Elvis, but better. You know? That's a beautiful, I love that. Right. I love that story. I've spent actually some time in Ireland, not like tons and tons of time, but I taught over there for a couple of three-week stints, I think, two or three times. And so mostly in the Dublin area, and then, but I was actually up in Northern Ireland too, and then we stayed mostly in a little town by Bray called Greystones. My brother lives there. Does he really? Okay. So that's where I kind of hung out. But so I got a little taste of Ireland and some of the issues that are there and some of the religious sort of context. Can you talk a little bit about that? Just like give people a sense of what, you know, you're, what you left to come to America and what the, what the perspective on Jesus really is in Ireland. Yeah. Well, it's tricky because, so I grew up in the very northern part of the Republic of Ireland. So I was, I grew up five or six miles from the border with Northern Ireland. And when I was a teenager, the peace process happened, you know, and, but prior to that, when we would cross into Northern Ireland, we would be stopped at British army checkpoints and you'd be taken out of your car, sometimes at gunpoint. Because of your last name, we were, we're Irish, you know? And so I remember the, the troubles very clearly. And there was a real sense of tension where I lived because it was bombings and shootings just across the border, but even in my hometown. And so I grew up with this strange Catholicism that was mixed with nationalism. And I grew up with kind of a, an inherited hatred of Protestants because I was Roman Catholic. They grew up with this inherent hatred, maybe, maybe more suspicion where we were. Hatred tended to happen a little further into Northern Ireland. And they grew up with that of us. And so we were never friends. We were, we were enemies, you know? But it didn't really matter after a while because I was an atheist, you know? I was still an atheist nationalist. I still wanted Ireland to be free, you know? And I have no problem saying that even today, you know, as a believer, I want Ireland to be a united Ireland again because I actually think that's better for the advancement of the gospel. But I got to go back to go forward. So my girlfriend who led me to Jesus, she was a nominal Protestant, the Church of Scotland, because she was Scottish. She didn't really know much about that. She was, she didn't care for Jesus either when we met. But it was ironic that you had this Protestant and this Catholic, you know, who fell in love. And at the time, I remember my mom was kind of concerned about what would happen with our religion and all that stuff. It is amazing that when I came to Jesus, all of my hatred and enmity towards these people dissipated so quickly. Like my best friends, you know, in the world now are reformed Protestants, you know? And the irony of that is that I am still a nationalist. Jesus, Jesus doesn't have a problem with national identity. You know, there's a reason for national identity. What he has a problem is with people trying to co-opt Jesus to support their cause. And so in Northern Ireland, that was the problem. It had nothing to do with Jesus. It was people wanting Jesus to be a mascot for their political affiliation to get what they wanted. And I would like to say that it's not like that. And largely, it's not like that for two reasons. In Ireland, Roman Catholicism has collapsed in many ways because of abuse scandals, because of the increasing liberalization of politics and secularization of society that we see everywhere in the world. And in Northern Ireland, that has also happened too. However, in Northern Ireland, because my house is currently across the border in County Tyrone, right? I would like to say all of that thinking is gone, but it's not. Unfortunately, like where my kids are staying at school, you know, because they call names because we're Irish by people in Ireland, but it's so complex. And we have to navigate that with Jesus because the last thing we want it to be a stumbling block for anyone. But I would say in Northern Ireland, one of the greatest stumbling blocks, I believe, to the advancement of the gospel is an entrenched Protestantism that has aligned itself to a political viewpoint. And in America, it's the same thing. And you guys know it and I know it. Everyone wants Jesus to wave the flag. They want it to be red or blue. And Jesus says, the only flag you need is a white flag. Right? So I'm also an American citizen. I became a citizen a couple months ago. And so I get, I get to have a voice in it. I get to have a say in it because the constitution tells me I can. And I am always gonna, I have my political viewpoints. I have, you know, I lean conservative when it comes to marriage, family, life, identity, all of those things. However, I'm also able to look at everyone and go, you're made in the image of God. So therefore you're worthy of being loved. But I will not be co-opted to a political affiliation because of my faith in Jesus. I'm a citizen of the kingdom of heaven first and foremost, you know? And I wish we would do a better job in Ireland. What's interesting you see that because James just had a book come out called The Circuits and Doves, and I'm learning a ton about this very same topic. You touched on a lot of the things he covers in that book. I'll get you a copy of that. Please, I would love that. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? 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I mean, I hear, I resonate so much with what you're saying because, I mean, one of the most disturbing images I saw over the last few years is a group of people holding up a flag and said, Trump is president, Christ is king. And all that went through my head was, would you hold up the same banner that said Biden is president, Christ is king? Both are true, but that truth became politically co-opted, just like you're saying. It's drawing it in there. And it's unfortunate, I think, that in the U.S. we're not learning from other countries. And so I appreciate you bringing that aspect out about Ireland that it really was, it is problematic to the spread of the gospel. It is a barrier because if we get entrenched in something other than the gospel, we're no longer preaching the gospel. No, no, and again, thanks for even talking about it. You know, I talk about it publicly from stage. Who I vote for is no one else's business, but mine. That's democracy, okay? Yeah, yeah. But my allegiance is to Jesus. My allegiance is to the kingdom. My allegiance is to the local church. The local church is the hope of the world, not Trump, not Biden, not the Democrats, Republicans, or libertarians. The hope of the world is the local church being a city on the hill that says, bring all your weary. Bring all the beggars. Bring all the outsiders. Bring all those who society walks past, you know. Bring the people of ill repute and no repute and of much repute. Bring them all. Because every one of them has a place at the table. But every knee is going to bow. Every tongue is going to confess.

Confess that Jesus Christ is Lord one way or the other. And I would encourage you while you still can come through the kindness of Jesus, come through the kindness of Jesus. Well, and thank God that Heidi adhered to that call and didn't get confused on labeling and which side she was going to be on. She knew that she needed to serve the King, the King of her heart. And I'm so glad she did. I knew that she led you to the Lord, but I didn't know that then trickled over to your two brothers, your sister, and now your parents. That's incredible. Yeah. Yeah, and that shows you the power of testimony, of witness. My family, three generations of us are sitting in a church that would never have darkened the doors of those church all because one good woman saw something in the gospels that showed her that men like me could come on to Jesus. So it's funny. I get it. I've got some charisma. I've got some talent. I've got some ability, but the hero in my story is always Jesus and then it's my wife. And because our family for generations has been, it just changed because of her. Obviously Jesus before all the, you know, closet complainers tomorrow, go, it's not her. It's Jesus. Okay. It's totally Jesus, but he used her. Do you know that silly thing that people say, people will say like that self-deprecating thing that artists will say that really annoys me, dude. It's like someone will say, bro, I love what you do. And you'll go, oh, it's not me. It's Jesus. Last time I checked, Jesus wasn't leaving his wife and four kids to fly to America, to get on a bus to have his bag full of smelly socks and underwear, sitting in a closet at the back, you know, so we could go out and play a show. Jesus totally empowers and gifts. And he is everything that supports and enables. However, our yes matters to Jesus. What you say and do matters to the kingdom. Oh dude, I'm so over false humility. I'm so, I'm so over being facetious. And I'm also really over being impressive. You talk about co-opting Jesus to political affiliations as being a barrier to Jesus. Trying to be impressive is a barrier to spreading the gospel. And false humility is a barrier to spreading the gospel. Be yourself, you know, that's all Jesus will use because it's all you have. Bro, I mean, it's really interesting. Like I wrote at one point, I was talking about the humble strength that we have in Jesus. And the humility can't be a false humility. It's an admission that yes, everything we have is gift. Everything that Jesus gives us is undeserved. And that's our humility. But our strength is really the strength that he's given us. It's the contribution that he has empowered us to make. And it's our choice whether to make it or not. And so, like at the end of the day, it's a collaborative with Jesus, you know. It is. It's very much us responding to him and following his leading as opposed to him just sort of taking over and puppeteering us. That's not the way it works. It is us responding and responding well or responding poorly. Either way, we get to own that. And, you know, hopefully we get to respond well more often than we respond poorly. But either way, it's our response. I love it, man. It is. And it's, I think it is dismissive of the kindness of God. You know, I used to like, Nate, even when you first met me, people would say, they'd come up to you and they'd be like, well done, you did great. It really did something in me. And I would cry because I couldn't even receive it, you know. But that said more about me than about God, you know. And as the years have gone on, I've realized that all of this, the fact that I get to do this, is a kindness. And I'm not going to throw that back in God's face, you know. It's so silly. Like, do we do some weird things as Christians? Like, I'll tell you another thing. Dude, I'm going to get in trouble and you probably don't post half of this. But, right, people will ask me, or, you know, at Q&A times at our shows, and I love those times because I hear the stories of what people have done, which are phenomenal. But they'll say things like, you know, I love how you lead worship. And I cut them up and I'm like, I'm not a worship leader. I'm a singer in a rock and roll band. I'm a very messy, sinful man who has an incredible God who has allowed me to do this. But I write songs for human beings. I write songs that let humans be humans and let God be God. My job is only to challenge, encourage, prick at your conscience, and give you anthems for the soundtrack to your life for Jesus, right? And why I say that is this. A, I'm not qualified to be a worship leader. I have not been called to do that. Some people absolutely have. I also don't know how you justify charging tickets to a worship concert, right? Right? I'll tell you why we charge tickets. Because we are entertainers. We put on a concert whereby it takes 26 men, two buses, a semi for production. It costs a lot of money. We feed a lot of families, including my family. And it's also an entertaining evening. And in the church, it's like, oh, I can't believe you're entertaining. Dude, do you watch Netflix? Do you play golf? Do you go watch sports? There is nothing wrong with entertainment whatsoever. And I actually think that entertainment and melody is the vehicle that God uses in our lives to communicate the gospel. It's why we're, I think we're a pretty impactful band, judging on what the audience has told us over the years. This is a long answer, but it's really important. The other thing is we use language in the church that is so nonsensical to me. We say things, like on Sunday mornings that leave me, like scratching my head. We say things like, church, we're going to lead you into the throne room of heaven. And I think to myself, what a crock of nonsense. You cannot lead me into the throne room of heaven. Only Jesus can do that. And where is the throne room? Someone tell me. There's no tabernacle anymore. It's gone. That's this. These vessels of clay. Holy Spirit dwells in us. He is the hope of glory. Christ in us, the hope of glory. And then we say things like, church, let's bring a sacrifice of praise. And I'm like, what sacrifice is required? Jesus says, I don't need the blood from your bulls and your goats. The lamb of God takes away the sins of the world. Christ is the sacrifice. He is the propitiation for all of our sins. So what sacrifice of praise? Romans, brothers and sisters, I beseech you, present your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable unto God, for this is your spiritual act of worship. Do you know why we sing songs? Because Jesus loves for us to sing songs. And he loves the church to sing, to edify and encourage the body. Language matters. So when we say things like, we're going to bring you to the throne room, we're going to sacrifice this praise on an altar. What altar? It's not an altar anymore. It's a table. On the altar, Christ was sacrificed. He took away the sins of the world. We don't need music as a sacrifice. Music is the overflow of the gratitude in our hearts for the finished sacrifice of Jesus. The veil is torn so that we can enter freely through the finished work of Jesus. My music is not that important. Neither is the Sunday morning music. Jesus loves us to sing songs. The hope of the world is not worship leaders or pastors or preachers or authors or book writers or rock and roll singers. The hope of the world is the local church. Jesus has finished it, and all we're doing is telling a story so that people will come. That's a rant. You can edit it all out if you want. No, that's great. I do want to say something. You're being humble and you're not saying this, which is totally fine because I'll say it for you. Just because you're an artist and you have a stage and people pay to see you in concert and the entertainment piece, like you're saying, not everybody has the same heart and mindset that you do. I've seen you perform a couple dozen times at least, and I have always seen every single time you leave space for the Holy Spirit to, you'll stop a song sometimes and go out in the crowd and God will speak to you to grab a hold of somebody. And I've seen lives transformed at your shows. And that's not always the case at every given artist. Every artist is doing it for that reason. So listeners, you guys can see them on this tour. You're currently out on the road right now on tour here in Texas. You guys have several dates left. Go to wearemessengers.com. Check out their tour dates. Check out their music. It's the real deal, guys. It really is. Thanks, Nero. You know what? I've surrounded myself with men and women who are better than me technically at things. And I wanted to surround myself with people of high character, right?

And high skill. And so when we do play shows here, we leave so much room for God. It is possible to have a night that is entertaining, that is joyful, that is rock and roll, that is fun, and also for God to do extraordinary things. But in order to do that, you have to make sure that you treat every city and every audience as an individual. So we don't copy and paste what happened the night before. I don't say the same words. We talk about the same things. We leave room for every city to understand that God has something for them. Because we're coming into these communities that these people have prayed over and labored over. How cheeky would it be for me to turn up and talk to Lincoln, Nebraska, like I'm talking to Tyler, Texas? How lazy, you know? So we don't do it. And it gets me in trouble because sometimes I say things that are inappropriate because I'm freestyling, you know. But I try to keep it theologically accurate. Yeah. Bro, I love, like, the thing, so I don't preach very often. I'm more of a teacher. And so in teaching, you know, you sort of get away with customizing things. Like, I can be very fluid. And just like you're saying, you know, the next class doesn't get the same thing the previous class got, right? Maybe a broad outline, but definitely not the same thing. But I was preaching the other day at a church, and it's two services. And so the first service, I get up there, you know, I just do my thing, and I'm like, okay, great. Like, I felt great about that. Felt like I delivered the message, like, solid, felt good. And then I started thinking about the second service, and I'm like, I don't want to just do the same thing again. So I get up there. I felt like I kind of tanked the second service. And part of it was just that I just refused to do it the exact same way I did it the first time. I'm like, I'm not regurgitating things. They have to have, it's got to be just real me up there. And whether I flub it, whether I screw it up, whether it's, like, not quite as good as the first one or whatever, I just didn't feel comfortable standing up there and delivering a rote, here's what I memorized, everybody. We could have just videoed this, and I wouldn't have ever had to be here kind of sermon. So I totally get what you're saying. Bro, you got to answer for that because if you, I'm thinking about C.S. Lewis, right? So C.S. Lewis, and I'm only paraphrasing, but he had this idea that pastors, preachers, artists, creatives, we fall in love with Jesus. Then we fall in love with telling about Jesus until deep down in hell, all we care is what we said about Jesus, right? And I think the danger of regurgitating things, going by rote, is that you start to idolize what you're saying about Jesus as opposed to the one that you idolize, which is Jesus. And so I think it keeps your heart in balance by not relying on your cleverness. At our shows, dude, I know I look like a fool a lot of the time. I know I look like it. I'm dancing, and the next thing I'm quoting, I don't know, Nehemiah or something. And I know people go, has this man got some kind of bipolar disorder or what's cooking? But for me, living on that edge has allowed me to really see what God wants to do in the night. I love that. But yeah, people come and pay tickets for the entertainment, for the songs, for the years of producing and recording and being away from families and all of that stuff. And I say to the crowd every night, you know, Jesus is free. You could have got him at home sitting on the toilet. You didn't need to be here, you know. So I don't know. I think we need to do a better job at not being false in our humility, but laughing at how ridiculous it is. What we get to do, it just, it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm a man from a village of 30 people. It just doesn't make any sense. God can use anybody, man. And again, I'm just so thankful that Heidi spoke up and said that because look at the generational wealth and generational change. It's just incredible. But I had the privilege of introing some of your songs. I'm local on a radio station overnight, and I know that there's people. I always pray and ask God to use me in those times because people are at work overnight or, you know, if they're driving or whatever. And I just know, like, that I got emotional. I kind of forgot about it, but I was introing your song Magnify. And you know I went through something personal with my family several years ago, and I called you. And that song still ministers to me and helps me. And I know your music does that for so many people. So what's that process like? Do you feel like God gives you an idea that you have something you want to talk about, and then you write a song? I mean, I'm sure you're writing new music now. What is that like for you as an artist? Yeah, well, it's cool. So in the hotel, I was sitting in the hotel this morning, just got off the bus, and I was sitting in the lobby, just the fine of the lobby. And I started hearing, you know, this melody, and it was like, well, I've been trying to make sense of the start that I feel. And I was like, who is that? And I was like, oh, that's me. And I looked back, and the receptionist was sitting there watching our music videos, singing along to them, you know. And, like, she didn't know I was even the guy because I've got a beard and I'm like bald and all this stuff. And it's really thrilling to see what God does with your music. And I've seen it all around the world now. So when I write songs, in my life, I have messed most things up, right, before Jesus and with Jesus. But one of the things that I think I have kept really pure and really right is songwriting. So I don't lie. I don't exaggerate. I don't try and tell stories from a perspective that I don't understand. Again, Christian music. We've so many wizards, wizards, you know. Hear me out on this. Wizards as in they're sharing wisdom. We want to be really careful that we don't share wisdom from places we've never been. Do you know? Yeah. And I do admit that sometimes I struggle when I hear people trying to apply a very generic set of wisdom that I know they have no life experience to back this up whatsoever. You know what I'm talking about. And I'd just be thinking, you'd be better just, like, saying nothing because you're going to cause damage with that. So any song we've ever written has been because we've lived it, we've walked through it, and we've seen the goodness of God either in it or we've hoped for the goodness of God to come afterwards. And a lot of my songs I'm writing these days, so the new album, obviously, Where the Joy Is, that's the season. But right now, I've been writing love songs just for my wife. I'm a weird man. And then I hear them, dude, sometimes we get comments on the internet, people are like, why are you always singing about your wife? And I'm like, why don't you shut up? Like, what is holier to describe Jesus again? Like I'm looking at some trees. Jesus, you're like the leaves on the tree, or you're like the ocean, or you're like the wind in my hair. That's what I love. What is holier, that or to tell my wife that I cannot believe you still hold my hand and I'm so thankful that God gave you to me. And even though I'm wretched as a husband, I will spend the rest of my life trying to keep you safe from the wolves at the door. Which is holier, right? Right. Think about it. Think about it, fellas. God already knows who he is. We don't know who we are. That's the problem. So I'm not going to spend the rest of my life telling God who he is because he knows it. I will tell him the rest of my life I'm so thankful. Never, I'll never stop. But I'll also write songs about life, death, and the in-between. And I think Jesus is in all of it. And this argument that, we get asked this all the time, like, do you listen to music that's not Christian? And I'd be like, I don't know what that even means. Like, what does that mean? Like, if anything is beautiful or worthy or holy, it's on Christ. I'm sorry. That's biblical. So yeah, listen to music that's not what the world might see, they might call it secular. Oh, that makes me so tired. I'm going to ask you this question because, like, I'm not going to be the only one getting in trouble right now, right? So, James, we'll start with you. Yeah, go for it. What defines music as being Christian or non-Christian? Oh, gosh. Or what defines art? What's a painting? What's a Christian painting? Yeah, I mean, it's sort of impossible to tell. I think the way most people might answer is to say that you have to reference Christ or the Holy Spirit or some sort of Bible verse. But I'm even saying that, you know, and I think about a lot of the work I've done, it's like, you can see, quote-unquote, secular

Yes, I think the divide between the sacred and the secular is mythic. I don't think it actually exists. And so I think that it's all sacred. And so the question is, to what extent does it point to Jesus Christ specifically and the triune God? And I think there's some music that points very specifically to the triune God. And I think there's a whole other end of the spectrum that gestures toward transcendence, but doesn't know the triune God. And so that would be the way I'd sort of frame that spectrum out in a lovely academic way. Very academic. Then I would add to that, that I think music that doesn't point directly towards the triune God, but that is still wholesome, beautiful. So imagine Norah Jones singing Songbird, you know? Sure. The Songbird keeps singing like the note of the score, I love you, I love you, I love you. Yeah. Like, do I want my kids listening to that or someone telling them Jesus is like garden furniture? Right. My kids love music that is explicitly Jesus. They love it, you know? And they also love music that is explicitly beautiful, you know? Yeah. So I think part of the problem why maybe Christian art has suffered in the years is because we put all these boxes around and said, this is how it has to fit. This is what it has to say. This is what it has to sound like. It's why worship music thrives at the moment, you know, the big collectives thrive or maybe the one or two big names in worship music because it's... How do you describe this? We've allowed a very short list of people to dictate what we sing on a Sunday morning. And it gives us a very narrow viewpoint on who Jesus is. Right. And I think that is to the disadvantage of the local church. I think every local church should be writing their own songs, describing what God is doing in their community and encouraging their community specifically. There are also songs that come from, you know, some of the great worship leaders that are really important and should be sung across the world. But it seems like we have... We've allowed worship to become the sound dictated by a very small group of people and a lyric type and a feeling dictated by a very small people group. And I think that damages the local church. It is not my church in Monaghan that should be dictating what the church in Tyler, Texas is singing because they're very different communities, very different problems, very different experiences of Jesus. So me, going back to me, selfishly, my job is very different to other people. How I communicate Jesus, the way I do it, the things we write about, it is not more important than anyone. Like it's not. I do the best that I can writing what God has given me and trusting him that's enough to do what he's asked me to do. So I can't look at another artist and go, oh, I wish you were like us more. Dude, I don't even want to be like me. I think that all those viewpoints are my favorite Christian artists. You want to go down that road? You know, like David Crowder is one of my favorite. Like, I love the viewpoint he has of God. So if you imagine Jesus, this is terrible theology. It's not theology. It's illustration. Imagine that Jesus is like a disco ball, right? And from my point of view, I'm shining a light on a part of that little glitter ball and it's exposing something of what Jesus is like. And then Crowder's doing it. You know, Toby's doing it. John Mark McMillan's doing it. And, you know, Phil Wickham's doing it. And, you know, it gives us a better view of how wonderful God is. So no one's art is better than the other one. But I do feel for the local church. I feel like their voices have been lost. I feel like they don't get to share that because they're consuming art from other people that don't know or care about their communities. Right. It's really interesting to hear you talk about it like that because, I mean, again, I've sort of thought about this from the standpoint of the pastor. And one of my concerns has been that big national voices often end up minimizing the guy who's standing up in front of you every week, who's doing life with you all week, who's visiting you when people die, who's visiting you when you're sick. Like this guy loses his credibility because he's not as polished as the big national pastor who you happen to like his books and his teaching. And it's like, whatever it is that we're doing on these kind of shows, and I mean, we're not a huge national show or anything like that. But I mean, some of these big national guys, I think, you know, there has to be a check in there to say, when we start diminishing the local church and the local church pastors, that needs to change. Something's got to change. We've got to sort of turn the spotlight over to that and say, look, the local church pastor matters. The local worship matters. Like these things can't be drowned out. We can't make this a McDonald's sort of Christianity where it's all the same. It's all branded because we're really going to lose out. We're not all the same. And so it's just not going to work. One size doesn't fit all. That's right. That local expression is crucial. Well, we see that in the scriptures. So it's very easy to read that thing and go, yeah, Jesus is the same everywhere. Well, how Jesus communicates with a Samarian or a Hebrew is very different. Very different. So why do we reduce it to the most common denominator? And again, I don't know what my role in that is, but I think my role is to serve diligently at my own local church. I'm not as a worship leader because I'm not qualified. I watch my wife sing on Sunday mornings and my friends sing on Sunday mornings. My brother play the drums on Sunday mornings. And I'm so proud of them because they do it not for applause, not for any fame, not for CCLI checks. They do it because they really love Jesus, you know? And so I want to find ways to serve my church now that I'm at home that I can benefit them. Not necessarily through singing because there are better people to do that than me. But I also have to be... My wife's really good at that. Like they asked me to do some... My off week is next week. I fly back to Ireland. I'm exhausted. My voice is tired. You know, you get to the point where like singing gets really hard when you're doing five shows a week. And they asked me would I fill in for one of their Holy Week services? Would I just lead a few songs? Really simple gatherings. Like this is not like... Don't think about your local megachurch. This is really beautiful, tender little gathering where people love the work of Jesus, right? And my initial thought was, no, I don't want to do it because I'm... I know I'm going to be exhausted. I know I've been away from my family and I don't want the commitment. And then my wife was like, darn, you can't be out serving the world and not saying yes to our local community whether you like it or not. And she was right. So I signed up and I'll be leading worship at my wee church. Because sometimes, sometimes you just have to quit being a baby and help where help is needed. That's right. Like this isn't... It's like, it's like, it's like, Jesus, use me, use me, use me. But only what I want to do. Right. You know? Like, so I don't know, fellas. I know I talk freely and I know I get in a lot of trouble and at times I can be deeply unpopular with certain people in our industry. And I know I'm very, very flawed as a man, but I'm not biblically illiterate. Right. I'm able to see my flaws, repent, turn, try and move from them. Sure. And I also feel that we need to do a better job at holding each other to a level of biblical accountability that we have failed to do because none of us really know the Bible. Right. Well, I don't want you to be the only one to potentially get in trouble, so I'll say something here that I'm pretty sure you agree with. You and I have discussed this. Without mentioning any names, we both probably know some artists or some bands that are just trying to find that right song to be on K-Love, for instance. And, you know, how you mentioned David Crowder being a different part of that disco ball. Like, God's called him to reach people that you're not going to reach. And if you get in this clumsy or, you know, bad idea of, like, trying to make a carbon copy of the next thing and you want to fit in a puzzle piece, it's not you. I don't think God's going to honor that. I don't think he's going to use you and the people that need your music and the people that need what God's called you to do in anybody, our listeners, anybody, if it's not music, whatever you do, you're doing a disservice because you're not going the path God's called you to do. So I think it can be sometimes tricky to navigate that. I've seen artists in this, like, well, we're trying to find something to be on K-Love because that's, you know, the top and that's going to help them. But you think you can figure it out over God. Like, it's just crazy to me. And it's always going on in my mind. But, you know, and we've all done that. Like, I would say three or four.

Four or five years ago, I probably lost myself in many ways. The problem with getting what you want is oftentimes you have your reward already. You know, and I said to someone the other day, and I wasn't being facetious, I genuinely believe this, and there's a number in my head, I'm going to give it to God. But I think, I think I've got a 60-40 split on my reward right now, right? I think 60% of my reward has already been had here on the earth. And I think there's still 40% that is in glory for me, which is the sign to me that has kept things right and pure and decent and protected from all of the ego and narcissism that claws at me. And why I keep doing it is because I'm still addicted to the lights coming on in people's eyes at our concerts, right? That thing is, that's magic. But I also want that percentage to drift back. I want that to come back to the middle, and I don't, I don't want the majority of my reward to have been applause ringing in my ear or statistics or awards. Those things I'm grateful for, they're great. I want, I wanna be the kind of man that my boys wanna be like, you know? And I want them to see that reflected in the Bible and see that reflected in my life. You know, I was reading the Sermon on the Mount this week, and you know, the Beatitudes are there. I'm like, dude, I've read that like a million times. And so he's like going through the thing, blessed are those who mourn, they'll be comforted, blessed are the poor in spirit. And you're going, oh wow, Jesus, that's amazing, that's amazing, that's amazing. And then he goes, hey, if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. He goes, he goes, I hate divorce, right? He goes, I hate your lustfulness and your pridefulness. He does this really tender thing, and they're all sitting. And then he just absolutely rips you apart. And I was looking at the list with the boys going, oh, that's me. That's me. That's me. We always have a habit of looking at the Beatitudes and go, oh, that's me. I'm the poor in spirit. I'm the one that needs comforting. And sometimes we are. And then Jesus comes along and tears me apart. And I know if I don't get my act together in these years of me doing this, I'm going to waste the opportunity to do something for him that really matters for him. Because applause has never made me sleep better. I've never slept better because a crowd applauded or sang my songs. But I have slept better when I know that the father has probably thought, good job, lad. You know, you didn't compromise. You didn't stay when you should have ran, you know? I want that because that's what I want for my boys. I want them to know that I look at them and I go, even when you screw up, I'm still going to be here. But I want something from you that really, really will give you purpose, meaning, and hope in your life. And I want you to live like a man. You know? We live in a culture. I'm trying to go, how am I tracking with this man? This man's up here. And I'm just like, I am. I absolutely am. Yeah, I absolutely am. I said the other night of the show, we live in a culture where, you know, identity has always been abused and misrepresented. And I was talking to the men in the audience. I said, from the outside, culture would appear to want you to be less manly. You know? They say we're a little bit too manly, a little bit too rough around the edges. You know, maybe we are sometimes, right? But I asked the women in the audience, I said, ladies, when the wolf comes for the door, who's going to be the first one out the door? And they all said, the man. I said, so do you want your men to be weak? Do you want your men to be so soft that they won't give their life away to protect you and your children? And I'm not just talking in the physical. I'm talking in the spiritual way too. Every woman in that little, was like, we want our men to be strong men, even if sometimes they're a bit rough around the edges. And dude, it was beautiful. These women all put their hands out and just, like, held men and prayed for them and encouraged them to become mighty men in the kingdom of heaven. We don't need men to be weaker. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. We need men to be mighty, but in order for a man to be mighty, he has to be biblically literate because that's where our strength, the power, the authority comes from. The rock. Our houses are all gonna look different. So we build our house on the rock. My house might look a bit shady. You know, some of the blinds might be closed. Some of the bricks might be falling off. But it's built on a rock. It's built on Christ, the foundation. So it's gonna stand. The problem with Christian artists like me at times is that we've built our house, we've built these big mansions on nice, soft foundations. Because we wanted to get the house up quick. And we wanted it to look the way we wanted it to work without having to spend the time on the foundation. Eventually those houses, in my life that house collapsed. That house fell apart. And I deserved, I deserved some of the shame I felt. Right? And maybe some of the abuse I got from people. But my house broke. As rickety as my house is right now, it's built on the rock. And it nothing is shaking it. And my wife knows that even though I'm a deeply flawed man, when the wolf comes for the door, I'm gonna be waiting with a freaking sledgehammer to get him. You know? I mean, it resonates so much with me what you're saying. And it's just, it's refreshing. I wasn't sure what kind of conversation we'd have. This was not what I was expecting. But I love it. And I'll just say just real quick, I mean, recently I got to do some study on Ephesians 5 and Christ's teaching about husbands and wives there. And one of the things you see is in the Greco-Roman culture, the head of the household, like the man, that man was supposed to be protected. They use that metaphor of the head in almost any other realm for leaders who would be protected by the body. They wouldn't be the first one out the door. They were this sort of domineering, protected, if the head goes, the whole body goes with it sort of feel. And when Paul talks about the man and he says, you know, you need to love your wife as Christ loved the church. Well, Christ is the head. Christ loves the church by being the first one out the door. Right? Like, and so it's this beautiful reorientation of what authority looks like. It's a reorientation toward sacrificing the head for the body and making sure that the head is that first one out the door, to use some of your language. It's just such a beautiful picture. So, I mean, I love what you're saying. James, you're a rare man. Like, and that's it. What does it mean? What does it mean to be a good man? Be as Christ loved the church. That's right. Will you give your life away for your wife and children? That is how you love them, you know? And that's what real men are called to do. And then I also spoke the other bit, you know, about wives, you know, submit. And then, oh, you could tell the room went deathly quiet. And I was like, listen, and I told this story, right? I told the story one time about, do you love telling stories? And that's just, stories change the world. So, my mom and dad both worked 12-hour shifts. Dad worked in poultry and in mills and hard labor. And mom worked as a cook in a little restaurant. And 12-hour shifts all day, every day. And we were never hungry, never needed clothes, had all the love we needed. We were never poor, even if maybe we were in monetary terms. We had everything we ever needed, right? And, anyway, mom would work, dad would work. And then in the evenings, come home, mom would make dinner. You know, dad might go out in the backstreet. He might be doing whatever work, cutting firewood to sell, whatever. Then they'd come in, and we had two sofas and an armchair, or two armchairs and a sofa. And when I was really young, we had a black and white TV

And mam, I always remember this, mammy would come in and not sit on the big sofa or on the other armchair. She would sit between his legs on the floor and sometimes rest her head on his leg. And I said to the audience, I said, Which one was in the place of honor, my father or my mother? And they said, Your father. And one of them said, How could your mother be so weak? And I said, Young lady, because it was a young woman, I said, Young lady, my father has not left my mother but for one night in their entire 50 years of marriage. He has not left her because he has dedicated himself to loving her with his entire life. And her response was not weakness. Her response was power and authority and a place of honor because she didn't need to grasp for equality with my father. Everything that was his was hers and everything that was hers was his. We've screwed it up, dude. We look at that and we go, The woman, her submission is weak. Why am I the way I am? I am the way I am because a woman held my hand and changed my world. And I told these young girls, I said, Equality is not something to be grasped, right? You already have everything that heaven has for you in Christ. And it's your femininity, your tenderness, your beauty internally that will change the hearts of men. Like, we've lost the plot. We have lost the plot. And the problem is we are so biblically illiterate, no one knows how to get back. No, I agree, man. And I think that that picture of your mom and your dad, it's a beautiful picture of, I think, exactly what's going on in Ephesians 5. Because in asking the husband to exercise authority by loving the wife, by sacrificing, and by being that sort of, exhibiting that meekness of Jesus in the exercise of that authority, right? The wives who were previously used to a domineering authority, right? They didn't have a choice in the matter. Now Paul is counseling them to submit to this new kind of authority, trusting that the love will, just as you're saying, they don't need to grasp for the equality. It will just be there, that this is gonna be a cohesive, reciprocal system where they're going to love one another and submit to one another. But we've taken that. We've made it into something that is gross and sort of power-related, right? Where men get to lord their authority over women and women have to sort of amp up who they are in order to have any standing in the home. And I do think it's a perversion in the opposite direction than what Paul was actually addressing in the Greco-Roman world. We've taken it and we've let the pendulum swing all the way back the other direction and we need to find that middle ground where we love our wives as Christ loved the church and our wives recognize that love and submit to it as the church submits to Christ. Yes, and as imperfect as we are. As imperfect as we are, yeah. And also recognizing that many men have absolutely abused those scriptures for their own good. A hundred percent, yes. And many, many men have got away with that and it's completely and utterly wrong. That's right. Because that is not representative of a man of God. It's just not. That's right. Just because something has been abused doesn't make it untrue. Right. Just like in America, when the George Floyd incident happened, which was horrendous in every way, shape, or form, indefensible, right? Yeah. The pendulum swung too far. Every cop's a bad cop. Every military officer is a bad military officer. Everyone in a uniform is a bad person. That is ridiculous. And we know it to be ridiculous because it is untrue. Because the first people running into the fire is the fireman. The first man running into the school shooting is the police officer. Yeah. These are men and women who have given us the freedoms that we have to talk, have this conversation. Yeah. I often get frustrated. We talk about sexuality, another big hot topic, and we're not going to go into it too far because we'll all get in trouble. You think about, you think about the people that go, oh, you must hate me because you're a Christian. And those same people will be rabbling on about somewhere in the Middle East and saying, oh, we wish it was like that. And then I say to them, go and try and live in certain countries in the Middle East and the lifestyle that you live and see if you can survive two weeks before you're incarcerated at best. We live in a Judeo-Christian world. And whether you prescribe to that viewpoint or not, we are afforded the freedoms that that offers us as a people. So now the believer, we enter into that story and we go, I'm going to love everybody no matter where they've been, what their orientation is, what their gender dysmorphia is, what their political affiliation is, because I'm called to love everyone. Right. And the beautiful thing we even do at our shows, and quite often, a lot of the time, we'll have people that have different worldviews coming to our shows. And I love that. We don't restrain ourselves from sharing what we believe to be true in Scripture. Quite the opposite. And I've never found anyone leaving our show because we prescribe to Scripture. They'll leave our show if they think you're bluffing them just to kiss their backsides. Right. So it is possible to invite everyone to this table, everybody. But it is a fallacy in biblical terms to say, come to the table as you are, but stay that way. That's right. That is half a gospel and it has no power. Right. The gospel is come as you are, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind through Jesus. And that's the level playing field. So my sin as a man who wrestles with pornography or lust or pride, envy, greed, whatever, my sin is no more damning than the sin of someone who is an adulterer or practices a sexually immoral lifestyle. It's no different. That's the level playing field. The difference is that when I come to Christ, I detest my sin because of his great love and mercy. I desire to change because he has asked me to be conformed to his image and his identity. And I don't go on the internet and start trying to just form an organization where we can all go, hey, let's all be pornographers. It feels great. It's really good. You should do it too. That is the antithesis of the gospel. When I sin and when I mess up, oh, even thinking about my sin in my life, I hate it, not because I'm ashamed, even though I am sometimes, but because I know how much he has loved me. And so my friends who are completely different ideologies or sexualities or whatever, I can say, hey, I don't condemn you. Come to the table. Let's see how Jesus walks and let him transform you. My only job is to invite you to a table with Jesus and love you and tell the truth. But we do a disservice to our friends when we pretend the scriptures does not say the things that it does. Yeah, yeah. It's really, it's, again, I mean, I resonate with that so much, bro. I think I wrote a piece on the He Gets Us campaign last year, the last year's Super Bowl ads. And one of the things I said was, you know, Jesus was actually pretty popular at one point in his ministry. Like, he had tons of crowds following him, right? And people were fascinated by Jesus. He was a compelling figure. But then ultimately Jesus had to kind of sit him down and tell him, look, you're going to have to eat my flesh and drink my blood. And John 6 says, and many of his disciples left him that day. There's a hard edge that people have to either get past or stumble over when it comes to Jesus. It's not a come to Jesus on whatever terms you happen to, whatever terms you like. It's come to Jesus on his terms. You're going to be a disciple of Jesus. That's on Jesus's terms. It's not on your terms. But anything before that, it's like, yeah, everybody gets to hear the gospel message. There's no exclusion there. Everybody gets to hear it. Nobody is bad enough that the gospel would not cover their sin. And so everybody gets to hear it. But ultimately, Jesus is going to, when you come and you accept Christ by faith, your desires are now Jesus's desires. Like, you take up Jesus's desires and that's the way it works. And I think it's just a beautiful... Did we lose him? Sorry. I'm going to put this on Do Not Disturb. No, you're all good. Dude, keep going with that thought, though. Yeah, I just think it's a beautiful picture of the kingdom. And I think you're absolutely spot on. We've got to not preclude people from the gospel message. We've got to not turn people away from Christ because he is compelling in and of himself. And we've got to let them make that call whether or not they are going to give themselves to him or not. It's not necessarily up to us to just say, well, you could accept Jesus, but you're going to have to stop doing this, this, or this first. That's not how it worked for any of us. That's not right. Right. And so it's just like... My behavior doesn't change.

And then you come to Jesus. Right. You come to Jesus and then it's all it's all game, man. I mean, it's like everything changes. And so sorry to interrupt, but when you think about you think about the growth of major religions around the world, okay. Islam is thriving throughout the world. Islam is thriving because they do not compromise on the teachings of Muhammad. Yeah. Dude, right. Christianity is thriving in Africa, in Asia, anywhere it's persecuted, because those people do not compromise on the teaching of God's word. Christianity in Western civilizations. So I'm not the doom guy. I believe that the true church of Christ thrives always. But in America, nominal Christianity is falling away, right? Because we compromise on the word all the time. And we misrepresent him. We're like, yeah, you know, Jesus would love you if you'd stop doing that. That's not the gospel. Jesus loves you in your sin. However, you cannot be adopted into the family of God if you do not leave that and move towards him. That's right. And sometimes that's leaving it every day and moving towards it every day. Right. It's one step back, two forward. That's I think that's the way of the gospel. You know, one back, two forward. And I would say that to people listening going, I'm too dirty. I've done too much stuff. I'm this, I'm that. I'd say whatever it is, Christ is sufficient. He is absolutely enough. And one of my last rants, and I have to go because my, uh. Let's totally get it, man. But I want to say this. This has been great. I don't know what you guys are going to do with this, but it's been great. So, um. Oh, maybe I shouldn't. No, we're posting the whole thing. That's what we're doing with it. Just so you know, we're posting the whole thing. It's beautiful. It's been great. I love it. No, I really, I really don't care. I want God to be glorified in my life. Even if that means I'm embarrassed or put to shame or mocked or pushed away because Jesus, when he looks at the cross, right? So he's looking at the cross and he's going, I don't want to do this. You know, father, take this from me. But it says he endures the cross because of the great joy that is set before him. Yeah. American and Irish and Western Christianity. We have bought into a cultural narrative that the greatest thing to be avoided is suffering. Right. Yeah. To be avoided at all costs. Yeah. The gospel calls us to take up cross. The only thing we're guaranteed is suffering this side of heaven. Yeah. That gospel is attractive to everybody because it's true. It's not nice, but it's true. But it's true. And when you look back at, when I look back at my life now, like the hardest places, the hardest times, I see Jesus there. I see him in all of it, maybe more so there than anywhere else. Yeah. And we have tried to medicate the suffering with medication, with porn, with substances, with good old fashioned religion. And there is no cure for it. And everybody wants comfort. They don't want to be uncomfortable. Yeah. We want comfort because comfort is king in our lives. Yeah. And I would encourage people that suffering is the gift. You didn't know you needed, you know, and on the other side of it and even in it is great joy. And I think that's what has driven me in these last few years. Joy. Joy sustains. Joy causes me to persevere. Joy helps me to endure. And there's a line on that song. That's the title track to the new album. And it says joy is not a place. It's a disposition and a grateful heart doesn't need convincing that God is good. And I feel it. And it's a good framework for living your life. The gospel is going to thrive. The church of Jesus is alive and well. And I tell you this, I used to be a man sometimes that would complain about the church as if I wasn't the problem. Right. I am the problem in my local church. I am the problem in every church. Right. And if I can be the problem, I can also be part of the solution. So whoever watches this, I would encourage you to remember that the local church. Sorry, I lost you. I would encourage you if you're watching this to remember that the local church is the hope of the world, not pastors, preachers, worship leaders, authors. And he gets us. I agree. Problem is we don't get him. Yeah. Yep. You know what I'm saying? He washed Judas feet too. All right. Jesus would wash anyone's feet. It doesn't make you a son or daughter of the kingdom of heaven. Yeah. So wash all the feet you want, but if you don't surrender your life to Jesus, all you're going to have is clean feet, not a clean soul. I love it, man. Darren, I know you got to go. It was awesome talking to you, bro. Like one of my favorite conversations so far on the podcast. So thanks for being here. It was amazing. We'll, we'll put some links into the show notes and stuff like that. You know, we are messengers touring in Texas for the next several weeks. Yeah. All over the place. So I'd encourage you to go check them out, man. This was awesome. And just blessings to you and, and the tour and to your time back in Ireland, brother. So thanks for being here. I appreciate it. And listen, if you've got any complaints or people want to write a strongly worded letter, they can write it to me. All right. Cause I really don't care. We'll, I route them all that way. Anyhow. Yeah, that'd be perfect. Well, thanks for taking that time to be with us today, Darren. We really appreciate it. This was awesome. Thank you. I really, really good for me. Yes. Oh, last thing you have to let your listeners hear this. If anything I've said does not stack up with the word of God, throw it in the fire. Right. But you'll never know unless you read the word of God. That's right. You're only offended if you know, so get in and read it. That's right. Exactly. All right, lads. Cheers. I love it. Later, man. See you boys. Be good. Appreciate it, bro. Thanks everyone for listening. And we'll see you on the next episode of thinking Christian. I just want to take a second to thank the team at life audio for their partnership with us on the thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Are you seeking a deeper connection with God, but just can't seem to find time to make prayer a priority? Introducing Mindful Christian Prayers. Whether starting your day or winding down at night, this show is your resource for spiritual renewal. Each episode features short guided prayers, scripture readings, and moments of silence to help you reflect and connect with the Lord no matter how busy your schedule might be. Tune in now at lifeaudio.com or your favorite podcasting app to embrace the power of prayer and deepen your faith with Mindful Christian Prayers.