Thinking Christian about Politics: Neither Left nor Right in Jesus Christ

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm joined by my co-host, Nate Gartano. Gartano? Gartano? Gartano? I always get it wrong. Nate Gartano. I get closer every time, I feel like. It's hard not to throw that extra syllable in, though. It must just be like an American thing. Anyway, Nate's here and we are going to be discussing Christians and politics once again here today. We're gonna try to take this from a little bit different angle, though, and really think through what it is about Christians and politics. Why is it that you see many Christians lean right or lean left? And how should we really approach that? How should we really be thinking about our political commitments and the ferocity, maybe, with which we protect or defend our political views? So that'll kind of be the topic of conversation today. So welcome, Nate. How you doing, man? I'm good, man. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to dive into this. It always, we were laughing a little bit beforehand, it's always can be polarizing, but I'm ready to take another stab at discussing this topic today. So. Well, you know, I think as we dig into it, maybe we should make just a couple things really clear first. Number one, I don't know about you, Nate, but I'm not that interested in politics. I know we talk about politics a lot, but I don't really have a particular, like, I'm not. I don't have any, you know, flags in my front yard or or signs for any political person. Never have, you know, and I don't have bumper stickers or anything like that. Like, I'm not passionate about politics. Nope, me neither. I've never, I've talked about it more in the last two months with you than I've probably talked about it in my entire life. Right. And I think I've talked about it more in the last two months than I ever have in my entire life. I mean, yeah, I just don't really care about it that much. I understand it's not trivial, but it's never been something that's sort of raised to the level of, you know, such a big interest for me that I've wanted to dive in and really deeply understand it. So I think what I just want to make clear for everybody is when we're talking about politics, we're not interested in politics. We're not interested in Republican or Democrat. We're not interested in telling you who to vote for. We're not interested in in telling you to vote necessarily. What we're interested in, I think, or what I'm interested in, at least, I won't put words in your mouth, Nate. I'll let you kind of frame it out. But I'm interested in discipleship. I'm interested in the church representing Christ well in the world. And right now it seems like politics has a high potential to hinder us from doing just that. So that's sort of my passion as I'm walking into this. I want to see the church committed to discipleship. I want to see the church living under the authority of Christ. And I'm not sure that our political conversations today are really geared toward that. And so that's why I'm having all these different discussions on discipleship or on politics. Right. Yeah, I think I think, too, it's just. There's so much. And depending on who you talk to, depending on your circles, depending on who you're around, some people aren't really telling you what they feel and then some people are. And then I think me myself personally, the last couple of months, I've realized, well, I don't really know how I feel about that just because, like you said, I haven't really dove into politics as heavy as I have the last couple of months. And I think it's a big conversation, not only because it's an election year and it's a big one. I feel like there's everyone's at odds more now than they've ever been before. And I think there's just things that people want to talk about, things that people don't want to talk about. But I'm with you. I think knowing how to be the best witness for Christ and pointing people to Christ is what I'm more interested in than some of these other details. I can sure get lost in different aspects of all this. But yeah, that's that's kind of what what I want to make sure that I'm coming back to center and that Christ is at the center of it still for me. And then I can decide and kind of figure out where I land on on all these different things. Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting. A lot of times when I've talked about politics, I think some people have gotten the misperception that I am telling them not to participate in politics, that maybe I'm advocating for an isolationist position. I'm really not. I mean, I think that just to sort of give a brief biblical justification for participation in politics, which is difficult to do. You don't see a lot of voting happening in the New Testament. In fact, you don't see any voting happening in the New Testament. And that's one of the primary ways which we influence our government is through voting. So we don't see that. But what we do see is multiple times within the Book of Acts, for instance, we see Paul claiming his Roman citizenship and leaning into Roman citizenship and the laws that are then available to him as a Roman citizen. So he talks, you know, he's being about to be flogged by the Jews and he leans over to a centurion and he says, you know, I'm a Roman citizen, right? And it sort of stops the whole thing. It shuts it down. I believe that's Acts 21. And we see him do this multiple times through the Book of Acts. He's doing it because he is asking the Roman government, the Roman officials to essentially be true to their word. There are certain things that being a Roman citizen entails. There are certain things that the Roman Empire promised Roman citizens. And when Paul gets in a sticky situation and says, whoa, time out, I'm a Roman citizen. I'm not getting what I'm supposed to get here. He's happy to say that, happy to use that as leverage or as a reason to move beyond his current circumstance to sort of escape through the back doors, as it were. And so he avoids a lot of various punishments. Even at one point when he's standing before Festus, and I'm blanking on the chapter and verse on this, but the Jews bring him before Festus. Festus is talking to Paul and Paul says that he wants to go before Caesar. And that's in part because Festus was sort of colluding with the Jews. And when we say Jews, probably what we should qualify is not all the Jews, but a leading segment of the Jews, probably Judeans, most likely Sadducees. Paul, if you'll recall, was a Pharisee and they wouldn't have been a fan of some of the things that he was preaching. But a lot of times when we see the ruling authorities who are against Christians, Christ first and Paul, what we're really looking at is not all the Jews. We're looking at Judeans, people within a given locale who are really very much against Jesus, Paul, Christianity. Not that there wouldn't have been animosity outside of that, but it's just an important clarification, I think, particularly today that we're not talking about some sort of weird anti-Semitic movement within the New Testament. What we're really talking about is a group of people that are against Christianity, probably because it rubs up against the comforts that they're experiencing within the temple state relationship. So just to give that clarification. But the point is, you know, Paul does not ignore his Roman citizenship. Paul uses that Roman citizenship as it is helpful to him in order to get out of these sticky situations he finds himself in and to advance his way toward Rome. And so Roman citizenship is not something that Paul just eliminates. And I think in a very similar way, Christians, it's appropriate for us to use the mechanisms granted to us by government to say, hold on a sec. As I recall in the Constitution, we were promised religious freedom. Wasn't that part of what we were doing? And so, you know, using the legal system, voting and representatives who are going to protect some of those rights, you know, doing those things is not illegitimate. I think what we just need to recognize is that oftentimes, even though it's not illegitimate, it is going to be imperfect. And so there's a there's a zealousness that we approach these imperfect things with that we I would argue we need to be careful about. Sure. Yeah, totally. I think it's interesting that people think, oh, it's totally different now. But then just hearing you describe that and the different people, different citizens that were on one side, but they're maybe, you know, Judean or they're Sadducee, you know, all these different things. It is interesting to me because, you know, we have Republicans now. We have Democrats. We have liberals. We have conservatives. And then I feel like the whole world when they hear this and we've seen already in the last few weeks, people want to put you in a corner and like pinpoint you like, you know, like a mark on your T-shirt. And it's hard to do with Dr. James Spencer because you're not really you're not aligned with with necessarily one or the other. But I think people can take what you say and see one way or the other and kind of put you on one end of the extreme or the other.

And I just think that's interesting because the same thing was happening back then. People were clashing because they didn't agree. So it's really not that different. Sure, the landscape's changed. Things are different today than they were in the Bibles, of course, but Bible times, but it is interesting to me that it's kind of very similar. Yeah. And you know, I ran across a line when I was doing some research on D.L. Moody. I was reading one of his biographies. It's an older one by a guy named Findlay. I believe his first name is James, James Findlay. I believe that's correct. But anyway, he was writing about... Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. About the industrial revolution and the way that the church interacted with the business environment, the growing entrepreneurial sort of business space. And he makes a comment, he said, the church became so dependent on the businesses and the money that they were bringing into the churches that they became virtually incapable of critiquing the business sector as a whole. Didn't mean that they couldn't call out moral problems on a personal level or something like that. But what he was pointing to was whatever holes in the system may have existed, the church had become too beholden to the system to really point those out. And I think it goes, it's a really important point that he's making because if we look at what's happening today, if we compare that to, let's say, what's happening with the prophets, for instance, the prophets are not looking out at the landscape of Judean and Israelite politics in the Old Testament and going, well, which is worse? Let's opt for what's less evil. Like the proclamation of the prophets has very little to do with this side seems to be slightly better on this issue, so let's proclaim on their side. That's not what they're doing. These are mouthpieces for God. They are representing him and they're saying, y'all aren't right. From a theological perspective, you've departed from the covenant. You're doing things wrong. Here are all the different things that you're doing. And it didn't matter whether it worked or not. It didn't matter whether there was a practical outcome, whether a particular issue was advanced or not. They were giving a theological message to their society. It's obviously a little different, you know, because you're talking about the covenant people and there are differences. And I would freely acknowledge all those. But the reality is they're not looking out at that situation and saying, let's choose the lesser of two evils. What they're doing is saying, let's just call evil evil and good good and call everyone back to the good. Right. And so they had no particular compromise in their minds when they're preaching these messages. Right. Today, when Christians tend to speak in the political realm, we tend to speak like politicians. And I don't mean that in a negative way necessarily. I know it kind of comes off like that. But my point is, politicians and politics in general is an arena of compromise. You're trying to gather a group of people together with disparate views and values and find ways for all of us to cohere together so that we can kind of coexist in one nation state and not have complete chaos and anarchy and insane things happening. We need politicians to do that. We need our governing authorities to do that. They have to keep the peace and they have to hold those tensions together for as long as they possibly can. I'm not sure we need Christians to do that. Not individual Christians serving in government, but maybe what we need to phrase it as is the body of Christ as a whole. The body of Christ as a whole, I think, needs to have that more prophetic voice where we can stand back and say, nope, the whole thing is wrong. We can't really find hope in either one of these parties or either one of these candidates. Not a perfect hope. And so we've got to be that theological voice because no one else can be. Right. And I keep coming back to what you've said here lately, the last couple of weeks, about we settle for wholesomeness when only holiness will do. Like, I think, I think that didn't happen overnight, but we somewhere lost our way to where we've kind of gotten that way. And it's like, okay, we have these two or three choices and we have to just pick the best one that, you know, fits, fits us. So it kind of already out the gate puts us in that position. But that doesn't mean that we can't question and kind of, you know, try to push the line as Christians, you know, to hopefully get other people to start thinking like that. I totally agree with what you're saying. And that, that quote that you've said lately has really kind of resonated with me and stayed in my mind. It's like, just because those are the options we have and it's not, there's not really a holiness choice, like, or like you said, like something like Christ said is going to be, you know, perfect for us where we can put our hope and faith in it. We can't really do that in the political realm because, you know, they're, they're two different things and you're not going to find something. I don't think currently by any means that that's going to relate to what, what we need. So Christians have to have, we have to come to center ourselves. We have to come, you know, more to the middle and and I think keep that, that focus there. But, but that's the tough thing is like, sometimes it feels like we're doing it by ourselves or are other people dealing with this. And so I think that's why it's important we're having these kinds of conversations. When I think Nate, you know, there's a component of this that we need to understand the game we're playing. Right. So if we think about it, politics is as a realm, right? Let's think of it like a field of play is going to have a set of rules that it asks us to follow. And it's going to have certain activities that are going to be tolerated that may even be part of that game that wouldn't otherwise, we wouldn't otherwise engage in. So consider, for instance, you know, it would be difficult to be a boxer without punching someone, but I'm going to go ahead and guess that you don't walk around and punch people every day. But if I threw you in a boxing ring with another person who's going to box you, I'm having a hard time believing that you're not going to at least try to hit them. Or defend yourself or something. Yeah. Right. I mean, the context almost demands, it's expected that you will hit. Nobody's going to get mad if you throw a punch. You're not going to get any trouble for it. Right. It's part of the game. And I think we don't reckon with that quite enough, that politics has conventions, rules, expectations, standards of practice that may not fit with what it means to be a Christ follower. And so those who navigate those things, and we've had folks on the show who do this, I think, very, very well. But it is a different challenge to be a politician as a Christian. I don't necessarily want to dive into all of that, but I would say I think it's possible to be a Christian and be in politics, just like I think it's possible for Christians to participate in politics. I think the challenge becomes when we adopt certain tactics that are incommensurate with or shroud, sort of push to the background, the truth of the matter that we're looking at. And so I'll say it like this. When we start trying to win more than we start trying to tell the truth, I think we're in trouble. So I've been seeing, just to illustrate this, I've been seeing a smattering of articles that I think actually convey pretty well the positions of Kamala Harris. Right. I mean, I don't think they're lying about her positions. I don't think they're lying about her, maybe her relationship to, let's say, religious freedom or her views on some of the key issues that Christians normally look at. Abortion, transgenderism, you know, those kind of things, even illegal immigration. I think they're generally true articles. The trouble I have is that these articles, as I've read them, start to feel like Trump is the answer. That in relief, you know, even if it never says it,

If Kamala Harris is wrong on all these points, you're only left with one option. And so we're not giving an even critique, we're beholden. My concern is that we're becoming beholden to one candidate and one party rather than seeing and recognizing the holes that exist within that party as well and being transparent that it isn't the party of Christ either. That conservative, right, Republican, that none of those describe Christian. There may be some overlap, just like there might be overlap on the left or the liberal or the Democrat side with Christian, but neither of them represent a Christian perspective on the world. They only happen to have certain touchpoints or overlaps with us. And so to advocate for conservatism and to suggest that maybe this is the way people need to vote, this is the way we get ourselves out of this situation that we're in in America, I think is appropriate. My concern is that we're attaching hope to that advocacy and that hope can only be, at best, a short-term hope. At worst, it's a false hope. Right. Well, because it's based on man, it's not based on God. Right. And I think that's a dangerous, a slippery slope, like we've talked about a lot the last few weeks. We start putting our hope and faith in a party, in a system, in the government, in a person specifically. That's when you can start to slip up because you take our eyes off of God. Just like, you know, many times in the Bible, like it calls us to keep our eyes on him and to focus on him, not put our hope and faith in even our own understanding. So if we can't put it in our own understanding, why would we put it into one person or one group of people? Right. And so the way I guess I'm, what I guess I'm advocating for is this. I think that Christians who are going to participate in politics have to do both and. And in phrasing it that way, I don't mean that they are two separate activities. The way I prefer it to think of it is that our politics have to emerge from our discipleship. That our love for and loyalty to the triune God issues forth in love for neighbor and in the way that we interact in the world in such a way that it should guide our political engagement. Which means that we have to really focus in on what it means to be and make disciples for Jesus Christ. And when we don't, my concern is that we are going to end up with what's called syncretism, an inappropriate combination of two or more things that come together as if they're appropriate. Christianity and conservatism. These are two very different things. And we see it, you know, we see it in the, you know, one of the issues that I see treated most often is issues of life, life sanctity. The Democrat Party has a pretty bad reputation on this issue and they are very progressive with it. You know, they do advocate for the rights of women over the rights of the unborn in an extreme fashion that I absolutely don't agree with. I would be pro-life sort of to the core. My conviction is that life begins at conception. And so that's really non-negotiable. So, yeah, the Democrat position is abhorrent. I think it's wrong-headed. I think it's misguided. But at the same time, when you look at the Republican, the 2024 Republican platform, it's equally abhorrent because basically all they're saying is that they will oppose late-term abortion. And this is my point. It's not, hey, we can't vote for either of these. That is not my point. My point is that neither represents a Christian perspective. Right. And so that as we're voting, we just need to recognize that this doesn't get solved. This life sanctity issue does not get solved by who we vote in as president. It just doesn't. And so we've got to recognize the dangers of either decision we make, understanding that human society may need restraints put on it, and we may agree that, hey, in this case, the Republican platform is better than the other. But I don't think that's all Christians should be saying. We need to be looking at both of these and pushing both parties to recognize that life sanctity begins at conception and that this is a practice that should not be allowed in any way, shape or form. And I think we could do that with a whole host of other issues. This just happens to be one that most people are familiar with. It is crazy, though, that you have to, like, choose between, like, early-term abortion or being against late-term. Like you're saying, like, to me, it's like, how did we get to that point? Like, now we're settling, like I was saying earlier, about wholesomeness and holiness because now we're trying to argue, oh, no, we can't do late-term. No matter how you dice it, I agree the same way, like that it starts right at conception. And I think that's what the Bible says. I think that's how God designed, like, once there's a heartbeat, that's an actual person. That's a soul. That's a heart. That's a being. And I think the only way that we're going to shape or change or shift the mindset on both sides or, you know, all the way around is true discipleship and people getting their hearts changed by God. Like, that's the only way, really, that this can happen. And so I wholeheartedly agree. And it's like you say, oh, well, if I'm basing it just off of this, then I shouldn't vote for either because they're both, you know, equally. It's just different components of it. Right. And that can't be, that's why I'm a little uncomfortable with single issues as a litmus test. What I think Christians are trying to do when we vote, what we're trying to do is discern what is God really doing here? That's number one. We'll probably never get to that specific answer. What is God really doing here? I had this conversation with somebody yesterday. We were talking about, let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free Retirement Defense Guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. A book called Ownership. It's on the slavery practices in early America and the way that John Wesley, George Whitefield, and Jonathan Edwards interacted with slavery. Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield both owned slaves. Wesley never did, but also didn't speak out against slavery until much later in his time as a minister. And so one of the things that he raises in his book, he talks about this idea that was common at the time, which is not an excuse, it's just a description, that slavery was ordained by God. And one of the things that I said in that conversation was, it's difficult because, you know, as people who believe in God's sovereignty, we do recognize that God is, at the very least, allowing some of these social situations to take place. In the realm of politics, you know, we see in Romans 13.1 that God is appointing these governing authorities over us. And he's doing that with, he's giving them a certain span of authority, and he's giving that span of authority to accomplish certain things. And so we can look at it and we say, well, God is ordaining something, right? But we don't know whether that God ordaining is going to be near-term good or near-term bad. Again, I always go back to Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar was called God's servant in the Old Testament. And so he's going to come in and he's going to take the Jews into exile. This is not something that the Jews would have been excited about. And yet God is ordaining it. At the same time, even though he is ordaining this, he also says, don't worry, Nebuchadnezzar will not escape punishment for what he's done to you. And so you have this sort of dual edge to God, what God is doing. We don't really understand fully what or why God is doing.

doing the things that he's doing. So even in saying our first step should be trying to discern what God is doing, we have to recognize that we're going to have a fairly limited ability to do that. And so then I think we have to lean back on God's word and really try to understand, not necessarily on singular issues, but on the function and role of the authority that God has given to governing authorities in the first place. Which of these two candidates do we feel is going to color within the lines, so to speak? Right? Right. And so, you know, my sense is that, you know, we need to be thinking through who's going to sit under God's authority most closely. And please notice the language I'm using there. I loathe the language of God-fearing when it comes to political figures. I realize some of these people are actually Christians. They're actually believers. And to that extent, I would love to use that God-fearing language for them. I think all Christians are God-fearing people. But just to throw out God-fearing as sort of a generic qualification because this or that person tends to agree with the rule of law or doesn't agree with the rule of law or what have you, I think is way off target. And so what I think we're looking at is who is going to, you know, stay within the scope of authority that God has given him or her? How are they going to do that? Where are they likely not to? Because there will always be a where are they likely not to scenario. We do not have choices where people are just going to say, oh, these are the boundaries God has drawn and I'll stay within them. Everybody's going to color outside the lines at some point. And that, I think, is my biggest concern right now when we're thinking and looking at what I'm reading in a lot of the commentaries on politics is that nobody's really taking into account where both candidates have a high potential of coloring outside the lines and how each of the candidates represents a danger to deceiving God's people, giving them and encouraging them to follow a false hope and really courting them away from conformity to the image of Christ and instead trying to form them into a particular type of American citizen. Yeah. All of that should be fearful for the church. 100%. And I think it's important to note that going to like a national convention of, you know, Christians that are assembled, just because you do that and you speak and close out the deal doesn't make you like an ideal model or perfect. It doesn't make you in right standing with God. It doesn't make you a Christian. It doesn't make you a believer. No more than going and speaking to the union, you know, up in New England or whatever, like, and makes you part of the union. It's easy for anyone to kind of just camouflage and kind of go into any different certain situations, scenarios, but that doesn't mean that that's truly who they are. They might just be doing that. You know what I mean? To me, it's just like politicians, I always have run them through that lens, like, because they can just kind of blend in with anywhere that, that makes sense to help them because it's obviously going to benefit them. Right. That doesn't mean, and we don't know his heart. We don't know her heart. We don't know where they're at with God, but I think it is dangerous to just assume because they're, what's the word I'm looking for? They're pandering to a certain group or demographic. That doesn't mean that they're truly a representation of you and most importantly of God. And I think that's, that's kind of a slippery slope that I've seen the last few years, the last few election cycles that I've been paying attention. I'm like people buy it and they're like, oh no, no, no. They're a believer. They're Christian. You know, they read two Corinthians, you know, whatever, whatever. And I'm not trying to make a jab. I'm just saying that as like a funny thing. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, it just, it's always been kind of concerning, but almost laughable at times to me. So, I mean, I think we, we have sort of a roadmap and a set of guidelines in scripture that help us understand and test the maturity of someone's faith. And we need to not take that too far. I recognize that, but there is a, there are pretty clear guidelines about what this might look like. And there are, particularly for the church, there are qualifications for those who are going to stand as elders and teachers. Those would not necessarily apply to the presidency. I know the point has been made that the presidency is not a moral leadership position. I am not wild on those arguments. I think it's sort of crazy to think in that, in that way, particularly in the United States. And I say particularly in the United States because there is a sense in which the people are voting in this person. But I understand where, and I think it's true as far as it goes. Like, I don't want to dive into that whole issue, but I do, I do understand where it comes from and I understand how it goes. But what I would say is this, Peter Leithart, who does a lot of work with post-liberal theology and in thinking about Christianity and politics, he says this, he says, a church obedient to Christ's command to teach all his commandments will have a significant effect on the political views of its members. He is not one who says that the political action can't be used to build the kingdom of God. I think it can be. You know, he would argue that it can be, but I think that has to be nested within discipleship. It can't be us Christians, you know, as, you know, largely unredeemed or even nominal Christians, you know, sort of Christian in name only. Maybe we have some vague knowledge of the Bible or we grab onto one biblical text or another, and we come in and we say, hey, look, this is what we could do with this political realm. This is how we need to reshape America. I don't know that that is actually as helpful as we'd like to think it is. In fact, I could almost certainly say that it's not as helpful as we often think it is. And so the solution for the church is never the political realm. The solution for the church is discipleship. And as we become more committed to discipleship, as we kind of started this whole thing off with, you know, my concern is that the church become disciples. But I think as we embed ourselves within discipleships, we really and truly are formed into the image of Christ. Political action will become an option for us to build the kingdom of God. I'm not sure we're there. I think that's part of the concern that I'm seeing as I watch the arguments, as I watch people talk about politics. My concern is that we are still having an awful lot of slippage between our political categories and our theological categories. And because we're having that slippage, we're applying language of hope, we're applying language of morality, we're applying language of, you know, progress, but we're decoupling that language from our deep theological convictions. And we're making it so that Christ is no longer central to any of those ideas. He's in the background, maybe, for some of those ideas. But we are playing a realm where, essentially, Christ is unnecessary. Right. And what do you say, James, to anyone listening to this to be able to put up safeguards or just to protect from this happening to them? Because I think at the end of the day, it's easy for us all to be like, okay, these are the options, and then you start justification. You start justifying and you whittle things down. You can drive yourself insane trying to figure out. So I think people's hearts are in the right place. But what do you say to a Christian that's God-fearing that wants to keep God as the center? What do you say to encourage them with this whole situation, looking at it? Like, how would you go about that? Yeah. You know, I would say that there's a process for biblical decision-making that we need to keep in mind. And so here's what I've, maybe a couple of things. Number one, I wouldn't look at the issues first. You know, there is an argument to be made that the political machinery conveniently leaves aside some of the issues that maybe we should be paying attention to. So just as a for instance, we are going through a period of pretty heavy inflation in the United States, heavy in the sense that it's heavier than we've gone through in the past. Right. That's a pretty general statement. But I would say that, you know, as groceries go up, as gas goes up, as, you know, everybody's sort of feeling a little bit more of the pinch, right? Is it not odd that

the two political candidates currently running for president are spending millions and millions of dollars per month to run for president while we have inflation going on? Right. Is it not odd that we have advertisements from both Trump and Harris asking everyday people to reach into their wallets and fund their campaigns for them? I find this odd. Especially after they both come out and say they're going after the working class and their tips, you know, having to tech. Did you see that? Like that came out and it was odd to me how polarizing it was. They were saying kind of the same thing, but the media took it one side and the other completely different. That's right. And it's like they're coming after people's livelihood. They want you to tax them even more. Yeah, their livelihood. And then on top of that, asking them to give to their cause to help get them in office. Right. And I won't sit here and pretend that I understand how to solve the debt. I won't sit here and pretend that I understand how to solve, you know, Social Security or anything like that. I don't. I have no idea. Right. Here's what I do know, that doing it the same way we've always been doing it is not going to help. It's going to get the same results. And neither candidate is campaigning on this. We're not talking about the way money is spent in government. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. We're not talking about budgeting. We're not talking about the way money is spent or what money is given away or why. None of that is involved here. We're not talking about reforming campaign, you know, funding structures or whatever. We're not dealing with the issue of greed, for instance. We could probably just name it. Like, we're not dealing with greed. We're not dealing with consumption. But we're dealing with all of these other issues. And so when I say don't start with the issues, that's the kind of thing I'm looking at. What I would ask people to do or what I would suggest that people do is take a step back, recognize that the issues that our attention is often directed toward are not the only issues. Or the more important ones, yeah. Possibly not. Some of them are, some of them probably aren't. And so as they're evaluating, what they need to do is have a strong understanding of what the Bible is arguing for. What sort of society does the Bible picture? How are the governing authorities intended to govern? What does that look like? What are some of the sins that we see in Scripture? I don't know why I put sins in air quotes, but sins that we see in Scripture that aren't being addressed by the major platform issues in the United States. How is it that we're being gaslighted into these conversations? And so I think not starting with the issues, but actually starting with Scripture is commensurate with discipleship. We're now asking God to change our hearts and minds such that we see the world in a new and fresh way. We see it ever closer to his perspective as opposed to our perspective. So that's number one. I think we have to do that. Number two, I would just encourage people to think well about each of the candidates. And this is what I mean by thinking well. We have to start recognizing that neither candidate in any election, not just this one, in any election, is going to pose certain threats to the life of the body of Christ and are going to benefit the body of Christ in certain ways. Even if we want to vote for a candidate who is going to give the body of Christ certain benefits, for instance, religious freedom. Now, I've written a piece on religious freedom here pretty recently where I argued that we should really be concerned. We should recognize the difference between Christian freedom and religious freedom. Religious freedom is the allowance that we can practice our faith without consequence from the state. And that's granted by the state. Christian freedom is the freedom that we have in Christ, that we are free not to serve sin any longer. Right. So there's a difference there. My inclination is still to vote for candidates who are going to uphold religious freedom. Why wouldn't we? That's something that we're promised in the Constitution that is established as part of the fabric of our nation sort of idea. And so why would we vote on a candidate who wants to change that? Maybe we don't. And so, again, that's a different way of thinking about it, but that's sort of my inclination. Now, in saying that, let's say in any hypothetical election, and I'm not saying this one, but any hypothetical election, let's say that the person who is upholding religious freedom also has, you know, some sort of a, you know, is going to pose a problem for the church through the institution of, let's say, a civil religion. We have to at least acknowledge that because we've got to get ready to say thank you very much for the religious freedom. And now that you've granted us that, we'd like to speak out against civil religion. We can't just accept what the candidates give us wholesale. We have to be true in a world that is ultimately going to be false. And so that's another one of those avenues, you know, really thinking through what are the downsides of a particular candidate, what are upsides for the church, what are downsides for the church. I think we have to think through that. We have to really deeply understand it. You know, and I'll just give, and I don't want to come off as Democrat, right, or Republican, really. I don't know that I care one way or the other, but I will say this, you know, the Republican, again, the 2024 Republican platform, and it's the one that I've read most recently, so I'm most familiar with it, calls for the deportation of all illegal immigrants. Given the deep association that has developed between Christianity and America, how does such a deportation harm the testimony of the church worldwide? Because ultimately we'd be turning our backs on those folks. I just think we have to, it's not that I think it's fair or that it necessarily should, but it's something I think we have to think deeply about, that this may not be the best policy for Christians, even though it follows a rule of law. And so because we've allowed sort of this weird synergy between America and Christianity, more than just historical, right? I wouldn't deny the historical influences of Christianity, but because we've allowed this sort of weird merger between Christianity and the state, I think we've created a situation in which some of the policy issues that might offend or be problematic are also going to blow back on the church. I've already heard people on the left or liberal friends of mine say that, like, you know, you guys are calling for deportation. What does that say about, you know, your God, about your faith, about your religion? Like, does he not call you to love your neighbor, to feed the poor, you know, to take care of the poor, to take care of the sick? Like, and I get that. And I've been wrestling with that myself. I do think that it's a little outside of our realm of understanding because of the amount of people that it's been in the last two years, because the border has just been 100% open. And we could probably have a whole episode just on this because I think it's a lot to unpack and to discuss. But I saw, and people think that it's more, but I've seen it's over 11 million. So, I mean, it's not just like, it's not just like a few hundred thousand. It's a lot of people. So I understand both sides, but I am kind of torn myself too, just because, you know, I have, I try to have the heart of compassion that Christ has. And I definitely always want to help anyone that's in need. I don't want to turn somebody away, but.

I don't know. Yeah, that's a tough one. I think these are uniquely, maybe not, you know, it's not like there's no historical precedence for this, right? We've had times in the history of the world where Christianity has been tied in in some way to the government, right? Constantine, you know, proclaimed the empire was Christian, for instance, you know, and didn't do that in sort of a pernicious way in the way that's often presented, but he did open up the empire so that the body of Christ could flourish without consequence. And so a lot of times I think there's a misunderstanding about all that Constantine did, how he did that. But the point is that there is this perception, even as we attach that to Constantine in a negative reading, that this merger between Christianity and the government became problematic, at least historically. And so we're in a situation now where, because of the nature of our system, right, we live in a democratic republic, we've got the problem of really trying to figure out, okay, how do we separate and keep an appropriate distinction between what the church is doing and what the government is doing? And I would just argue that we have not done a good job of making that distinction, making that separation. We're actually leaning into it and trying to create a deeper merger in certain sectors. This is that whole conversation around Christian nationalism. You know, we've allowed Christianity to become something of an intrinsic feature of America. And so because that hasn't been an area in which we have offered a strong critique, we are now going to face some of these issues as different ruling parties sort of look out on this. You know, I think it's part of the reason that for many Christians, a Democrat win is actually a loss for Christianity. So it's... You're right, I think, to be conflicted about the issue, Nate. I tend to agree. I'm conflicted about the issue as well. And I can see how, you know, from a governmental perspective, there are certain things that we need the government to be doing and thinking about and even dealing with in a manner where compassion for citizens may be overshadows compassion for non-citizens. That can make some sense. But from a Christian perspective, we don't care who these people are. We don't care whether they're citizens of the United States or non-citizens of the United States. We're loving them as our neighbors who are in our midst. And because we're so intertwined, that becomes difficult to recognize. Yeah. When I've been sitting with myself in my own thought process kind of thinking through this, like I've thought about the many times I've been on mission trips myself, some with my family, and it's like your mindset kind of changes a little bit when you go to a third-world country and you're serving and you're just like, oh, man, like these people, like, but the reality is this is the same scenario just in our neighborhoods, in our backyard, in our cities, in our states. And so that puts things in perspective really quick and it makes you, like, it makes you question, like, man, am I, am I where I'm supposed to be on this issue? Like, it's, it's a real tough one for me. It is. And it, but I will say, I think that if we approach politics, not from the perspective of the church and the state are partners, so much as the church and the state partner together to advance the kingdom of God to the extent that the state remains within the scope of authority God has delegated to it, but we're still separate. We're still very distinct. Right. And so as we lean into discipleship and we carve out for ourselves the niche appropriate to the church, right? If we think about, you know, you often hear about the God-shaped hole in the heart of humankind, right? Well, maybe that God-shaped hole is just a little bit bigger when it comes to nations or multiple nations or what have you. And the church is intended to fill it. And so if we are supposed to be that God-shaped piece that fills the God-shaped hole, that's only going to come about through discipleship, not through partnership. Right. And so we just have to really wrestle with this and I think start approaching politics from a slightly different perspective, not abandoning politics, but approaching it from the perspective of we need to first and foremost be Christian. We're always Christian first. We're always leaning into discipleship because even when we're told to be subject to the governing authorities, we're told to be subject to the governing authorities because God has authority over all things. And so these are not, you know, sort of out of control runaway trains that we should be stopping. These are things that God has put in place and we are to live in subjection to them to the extent that we can also obey all that God has commanded. And so we learn to live under the authority of Christ and part of what's entailed in living under the authority of Christ is honoring the emperor. So, you know, we've got this sort of interesting relationship with the world because we recognize that God is over all. And in the course of obeying him, we also seek to live peaceably within society. But that's a very different thing than suggesting that society can fix itself or that, you know, one party is stronger than another. I think we have to be very careful in not overreading what we think God is doing in the world, because when we do so, I think the politics will ultimately start taking the place of God. Yep. That's been my biggest fear is people have the right intentions and the right heart starting out with these process of elimination or trying to figure out where they land on certain parts of this discussion that we're talking about today. But it's really easy, I think, for one to replace the other if we're not careful. Yeah. Or at least to even be just like right at the same. And that's not how it should be either. No, not at all. Well, man, we've covered a lot of ground here today. I think, you know, if I were bringing it back down to brass tacks, it's just let's focus in. Let's commit to being disciples. Let's learn to live under the authority of Christ so well that our perception of reality changes and that these decisions aren't anywhere near as painstaking as we're making them. Let's just figure it out where we are. We're rooting ourselves in discipleship and allowing that theological soil to form and shape our decisions and our way of being in the world such that we reflect God's glory to a people that really need to see it. I think that is the heart of the church. And it can sound trite and it can sound overly spiritual, but the reality is it's what we have. It's what we're called to do. It's the only strategy that we have that we know will work. Right. And so we've committed to it. I think we just need to let it play out. And again, sure, it doesn't mean that we don't participate in politics, but it does mean that we have to put the cart and the horse in the right order. There you go. Yeah, I like that. I think that's perfectly said the way you tied that in together. That's amazing. That's great. Well, cool, man. Well, we will have another conversation next time. And Nate, just appreciate you being here and having a good conversation with you. And folks, if you're listening, check out some of the other episodes on Thinking Christian. We've got a lot of these on politics. I've been speaking with Nate, but I've also been speaking with some other authors who have written on politics. And so if you go in and look at some of the past episodes of Thinking Christian, you're going to find a lot of people who have done a lot of study on this, who have dedicated a lot of time, and who in some cases represent a slightly different perspective than I do. And I think that's part of what we're trying to do on the program is not to give you endless possibilities, but certainly to give you an appropriate mix of perspectives so that you can think well as believers in Christ. So thanks very much for being here. Thanks, Nate. And thanks, everybody. We will catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. And oftentimes, you know, you're chasing happiness, but you don't know that God is the best way to achieve the happiness you're looking for. And so I was trying to end my suffering by sinning, but I only ended up sinning my way into more suffering. That was Grammy winner Lecrae unpacking his testimony on The Walk, a podcast for worshipers. Join us weekly to hear artists, songwriters, worship leaders, filmmakers, and other creatives tell stories in the form of a devotional. The Walk can be found on lifeaudio.com or your favorite podcast platform.