Has Trump Changed the Church: Thinking about David French's Analysis in the New York Times

The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer, and I'm joined by Nate Gurtano. And we are going to talk today a little bit about an article that was put out by David French in The New Yorker. We're not really going to discuss the article so much. That might be a little bit of a misleading way of putting it. But what we're going to talk about is something that he says in the article specific to Donald Trump changing the church. And I have some thoughts on that. Nate, you probably have some thoughts on that as well. And so that's really going to be the topic today is, is Donald Trump changing the church, or has Donald Trump changed the church? So, Nate, welcome. As always, it's great to have you with me, man. Yeah, thanks for having me. Looking forward to chatting about this. Yeah. So, dude, this article has gone kind of nuts. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, you've read it, but David French is a columnist for The New York Times. And essentially what he wrote was in order to save conservatism, he's voting for Kamala Harris. Now, there's part of me, and you know me well enough to know this. I could care less about saving conservatism. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. You know, I think there are certain points where conservatism is called for. I also am, you know, an advocate for progress. And so I think that we could make progress once we understand what we're progressing toward. And I've written some stuff on that. But at the end of the day, I really felt that the challenge of this article was the way he was able to move almost seamlessly between conservatism and Christianity and then to draw the conclusion that over the last—what is it now? You know, I mean, Trump was elected in 2016, so eight years. Over the last eight years, Trump has been able to influence evangelicalism particularly and maybe the church more broadly such that he says this. Political violence and threats of violence have no place in American democratic process, yet threats and intimidation follow the MAGA movement like night follows day. And then he goes on to suggest that the church, the evangelical Christians, also exhibit—he says it is difficult to overstate the viciousness and intolerance of MAGA Christians against their political foes. And then he ends that paragraph with Trump is changing the church because there are many churches and Christian leaders who are now more culturally Trumpian than culturally Christian. There's a ton to unpack there. Oh, yeah. Right? It's kind of unfair to put that out there as all the church because certainly I think there's churches that are that way, but I don't feel like my church is that way. There's probably people in every church that are maybe that way, but yeah, that is a lot. Like we almost need more of an hour to just even unpack that. Well, yeah, I think that's a really good place to start, though, Nate. Depending on who you look at, so based on what Barna, George Barna, has done, and he works out of the Cultural Research Center—I think I'm getting that right—out of Arizona Christian University right now. And so some of the things that he's released to suggest that while the media might say that evangelicals make up, let's say, anywhere between 25 and 40% of our total population, he would argue that based on the National Association of Evangelicals definition of what it means to be evangelical, only about 10% of Christians actually fit that mold. And so when we're looking at this and we're saying, well, who are these MAGA Christians? We're probably not looking at the entire church. We're certainly not looking at the entire church. Right. And we're probably looking at a relatively small yet vocal group of people who have a, what I would call a syncretistic worldview anyway. And these are folks who have drawn in a lot of political ideologies into their understanding of God. And so the way I usually would phrase that is they are selectively deciding which portions of Scripture should be authoritative and adding to that selective list various political and social values that are maybe biblically adjacent, but certainly are not central to or essential to what we would normally call biblical Christianity. I know that's a little convoluted, but basically all it is is just saying this. Christians believe that Christ is essential for everything and our desire is to conform to his image. Everybody else is maybe trying to incorporate aspects of who Jesus Christ is into their life because they see it as important moral teachings, but they're really trying to drive their own destiny and trying to determine their own lives. And so there has to be this distinction between people who believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and follow it without qualification, however imperfectly, and people who decide that the Bible is a source of inspiration that will help them to lead a better life, and they're the ones who are determining what that better life is. Yep. I think it's safe to say, too, that on both sides, but especially on the Republican or conservative side, people are driven by fear. And the Scripture says in many places, and God even directs us, not to be wavered by fear. He hasn't given us a spirit of fear. And if we're really trusting, and same thing like you just said, like we're kind of cherry-picking there because if we're trusting, we shouldn't be so focused. I think there's so much fear that's driving a lot of people on both sides, fear of what happens if the person that doesn't match to the best of their ability what they want, fear of what happens if that doesn't happen. Yeah, so I think you're right about that. I mean, I think that the fear of the Lord is largely, and this is a really overly simplified understanding of the fear of the Lord in the Old Testament or even in the New Testament, but what I would say is the fear of the Lord has to do with how we attend to God. What attention do we give Him? Is God truly the most relevant actor and factor in any given situation? Or is it possible in certain circumstances to push God to the background and to draw something else to the foreground? And so we can start to think of that, if we start to think of it in that way, then I think what we have in French would say MAGA Christians, I don't know what he really means by that. Right. I really don't. But I would say my intuition is this. A MAGA Christian is someone who believes that the fate of America is in some way inextricably linked to the Christian faith. In other words, if America fails, there's now something that has gone awry from a theological perspective. What I would argue is that when America fails, that is completely in line with what I see Scripture suggesting will happen to the nations. It isn't a question of whether America will fail. Nations fail. They are provisional. They only exist for a certain amount of time and within certain boundaries. It's a question of when America will fail and can we slow that failure? Do we want to slow that failure? You know, what should we do to slow that failure? Right. And so those are the real questions, I think, are being asked. Right. And I get the sense that MAGA Christians, they view America as so entangled with the biblical narrative that America has this special place in God's economy that America needs to survive. And if America does not survive, that is some sort of a symbolic loss for Christianity. Now, that may be overstating it a bit, but that's sort of my understanding, I think I've leaned in.

to that, you know, in that way, I think that sort of encompasses ideas of, you know, if only America would get a little bit more moral, it would experience God's blessing. I'm not sure that's how it works. Right. It is interesting, though, on the other side, even on Kamala's, on one of the other articles that we were kind of looking at before this, on Kamala's website, it says the same kind of thing about, you know, the moral compass, like choosing what is the closest to you and your beliefs. And, you know, so it's both ways, it's on both sides, it's just worded differently. Exactly, yeah. Sorry, go ahead, Nate. No, no, no, I just was gonna say, yeah, that's it. Yeah, I mean, if you look at evangelicalsforharris.com, right, here's the statement I'm reading exactly off the website. Evangelicals don't have to change who they are. They just need to reaffirm who they are by voting for someone who better reflects Christian values. Right. Now, again, you know, when we talk about MAGA Christians and being more Trumpian than Christian in culture, you know, just in the same way that there's a lot to unpack there, this has a lot to unpack. Oh, yeah. What do we mean by better? Right. I'm old enough to remember that old analogy, you probably are too, Nate. You know, if you and I are standing on the Grand Canyon and we're throwing rocks across, and you get your 75 yards and I get mine 50 yards. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up. And many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. If you'd like to explore whether a gold IRA is a good fit for your situation, Sanctuary Metals makes it easy to get started. Text GUIDE to 94878 to receive your free retirement defense guide or call 888-958-6579 to speak with one of their knowledgeable team members. Again, text GUIDE to 94878 or call 888-958-6579. They both fall into the Grand Canyon. So who gives a rip about the extra 25 yards you got? Right. We both failed. And so when we talk about this statement on the evangelicalsforharris.com, you know, better reflects Christian values. Better is the ambiguous term. Right. Does it really matter if better is just another 25 yards that falls into the hole? I'm not sure that that's the best way for us to think through these matters. Right. Especially when this line of thinking tends to take God completely out of the picture anyway and put something else in the forefront when it's not supposed to be that way. That's right. Because even when we talk about Christian values, when we click through on that website and look at the learn more section, they address seven topics. Economy, jobs, manufacturing, health care, infrastructure, pandemic, creation care. There's not a biblical or theological argument in sight. It's all just data. It's stats. And I'm not even commenting on whether the stats are true or not. That's not really my expertise. But what I would say is if you're going to say that these things align with Christian values, and then we're going to talk about economy, jobs, manufacturing, health care, infrastructure, pandemic, and creation care, creation care, maybe. Economy, when we look at it and they say they talk about economic growth. Well, we need to have a discussion about whether that aligns with biblical values, Christian values or not. Right. You know, manufacturing. I'm not exactly sure how I understand how all that fits within a Christian value framework. And because they haven't given me a robust biblical and theological argument where Christ is central to these values that they're asking me to learn more about, I can go any way I want with it. And it's not that I think these issues are trivial. It's just that when you frame them as Christian values, now don't I sort of have to ask the question? How is it that each of these things are Christian values? How is it that Christians should think about them as Christian values? And where does Christ factor in each one of these aspects? You know, my wife works in Catholic health care, for instance. Right. Catholic health care does an awful lot of thought and practice and structuring of faith and tradition, at the very least, into their health care understandings. Catholic social teachings are extremely prominent within Catholic health care. And so when you look at that, you can get a sense for how they're thinking through that, whether you agree with it or not. But also you see, you know, the health care crisis that we tend to look at. Catholic health care in any given year gives away discounted or free health care to a large degree. Right. And so when we're looking at health care, right, it's like, well, is it impossible to get health care in the United States? Of course not. Go to a Catholic institution. They're not going to turn you away. Mm hmm. It's going to be difficult for them. It's going to be difficult for you, possibly. They're not turning you away. Right. They don't turn anybody away. And so there are these wrinkles there where I think we have to just think all these through. But to your point, I think it's the same mistake. Evangelicals for Harris and Christian nationalism or, you know, this notion of MAGA Christians where they're tying Christianity to one candidate or another and viewing that as either a symbolic victory or loss is really problematic. Because at the end of the day, Christians don't have to reaffirm who they are by voting for someone. Right. Right. We reaffirm who we are through lament, through worship, through generosity, through sacrificial service, all these other things. Voting is I almost hate to phrase it like this. It's almost superfluous. It's an up down on imperfect candidates with whom we probably agree and disagree with a number of different positions. It does nothing to reaffirm our identity as Christians. Right. It's a completely, almost completely American act at this point. Right. There's nothing wrong with it being an American act. No. The trouble is that we're labeling something that's an American act as Christian. Yep. And I hate it. I hate to see how much division it's causing in Christians if they don't align. And like people can't agree to disagree right now, it feels like. And and some people don't want to make a decision, but there's all this pressure that people are like backed into a corner. Like I have to choose one side or the other. And, you know, we just explained the stark contrast there. It's the same thing, just worded differently. You feel like you have to make a choice, but how do you best do that, especially without leaving God with leaving God out of the equation, which, you know, happens a lot of times, which is unfortunate. But I think the fear, and I just I keep coming back to that in my mind. I think it's all driven by fear on both sides. Like I cannot believe how many comments I've seen. I'm a big guy, big ongoing in the comments on both sides. And I've been watching. I watched the RNC. I watched the DNC and I've been kind of watching and just seeing what people are saying in the comments. And so many times the thing I've seen the most is, well, if Trump doesn't get in, the country is gone. Like, that's it. And I'm like, you know, and similar things on the other side. And it just it's worrisome for sure. When I think this is why I have trouble with French's statement that Trump is changing the church. It's not because I don't think Trump is having an influence. It's because I think that Trump is benefiting from the way the church already is. So let me kind of clarify or flesh it out. Like the way French frames it is that the violence and intolerance and the spicy language that is being used by Christians is somehow downstream from Donald Trump. He's the cause of it. Because he speaks the way he does, because he talks publicly the way he does and tweets the way he does or whatever, Christians are picking that up and saying, yes, this is a person we want to emulate. I would almost reverse that. I would say that what's happening, and I think this ties into what you're talking about with fear, is that many people who are either nominal Christians or true believers.

Right. I don't know that I want to qualify that. I don't think I have enough good research on that, but my suspicion is this. It's my thesis, right? My hypothesis. I think that Christians are afraid of losing the sort of broken world in which they've become comfortable. And they're faced now with adopting a sort of broken world with which they are uncomfortable. It's virtually undeniable that our society has problems, that it had problems 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago. Our society always has problems. But there's a tolerance level that I think all of us have for saying, yeah, but that's just the way society is. That's just the way this works. Right? I mean, and I've talked about this on the podcast before, and it's just something that I think through. I just drove by, you know, I've driving my kids to lacrosse, and I saw that stupid Gentleman's Club sign that says, student loans got you down. We're hiring. It drives me crazy. It like sticks in my brain like nothing else because I just, I, I drive by it and I, you know, I have two twin daughters who are 15. And I think to myself, right, if, if my, if something were to happen to my wife and I, or my kids weren't taken care of, they would be in a vulnerable, vulnerable position. And these people are the ones who are trying to take advantage of that vulnerable position. Capitalize on that. Yeah, that is very frustrating and concerning. It's just, it's one of those things. I don't know. I think it's because I see it so often. Like I drive that path. I have to drive that path to get where we're going. I drive that path so often and I see it so often and it just sticks in my mind. But you don't really see Christians protesting outside of strip clubs the way you do Christians protesting out of like Planned Parenthood. And I'm not saying either is right or either is wrong, but my point is that we've accepted Gentleman's Clubs as sort of part of our reality. There are bigger fish to fry. And so we're leaving that one aside. That's what I mean when I say there's a certain level of brokenness that we've gotten used to that we're comfortable enough with. We realize that we're not going to get rid of all of it and honestly, we don't care to get rid of all of it. These are not things that we're going to get activated about. And so I think what's happening within the church, and I'll use that generic phrase just to refer to at least a segment of the church that cares about these matters. I think what's happening is people are starting to be uncomfortable. They're starting to feel threatened. And so now what they have is a leader who is encouraging them to speak out about their discomfort. And so the way I see it is the church has not actually changed. The church has been culturally comfortable and ultimately feeling the pressures of a changing pluralistic society where some sort of notion of morality has been eroding for some time. And at this point, that pressure, that sense that morality is eroding has gotten just strong enough that now the church is showing its true colors or that segment within the church is showing its true colors. It's just, it's gotten harder, you know, the, the shift has gotten so strong that now Trump makes sense. Whereas 10, 15, 20 years ago, Trump wouldn't have made sense. No, it would have been too extreme. Right, we didn't need that drastic measure because America was just, it was okay enough. And so that's what I mean when I say I don't think Trump is changing the church. I think that Trump is, unfortunately, a sign of the church's true colors. And again, I want to make clear, I'm not saying the church at large. I agree with you. My church is not like this. Your church is not like this. I'm not like this. You're not like this. Like, and so I think this is a segment of the church that has adopted that syncretistic worldview and decided that if we don't have things like religious freedom, if we allow transgenderism, if we, you know, do all these other things, that not only is America going to hell in a handbasket, but so are we. And I'm just, it's not that I don't agree. Like I'm opposed to many of those things as well. I just also want to recognize that combating those things through politics is a viable way of doing things. It can work. I think it's a viable option for Christians, but at the end of the day, if we're doing that without making and being disciples for Jesus Christ, we're not doing it as the church. We're doing it as Americans who have some generic faith in some generic God. And I think it's a dangerous, it's a slippery slope if you read what is on Kamala's website saying, you know, pick the one that best reaffirms you. Like when we shouldn't have to do that, we don't have to reaffirm who God is. Like, and I always come back to the heart, man. I think it's a heart issue. I think it's not the whole church. Just like boycotting the Olympics doesn't make sense to me because that doesn't, you can't tell me that every single Olympian from all over the world was on board with what happened at the beginning. But then the Christians were sometimes the first ones to say, that's it, I'm out. You know, like I'm not watching the Olympics. And it's sad. And I feel like people just make things too cut and dry. And they're too quick to be like, no, I have to be on this side or this side. Like, let's, let's look at the issue of our heart and let's look at our relationship with God. And like you just said about, you know, making disciples. If we were focused on that and not focused on getting close to Trump at a rally or, you know, like the way we saw that at NRB was the first time in my life. And it was absolutely gross. Like I was just like, man, this is so backwards. I, I think that the main problem for me with this whole idea of where our politics are today, where our, we might call it our, the merger of Christianity and politics. Here's my problem with it. If you want to make an argument based on policy, make an argument based on policy. I think there's an appropriate way to think about that. That can be informed by faith, but doesn't necessarily have to be Christian. And so what do I mean by that? I'm going to say that the command not to take the name of the Lord, your God in vain has to do with accepting that name, being owned by God, being part of God's community, and then acting as if you're not part of that community. Right. It's a, it would be similar to, you know, sort of, we become the black sheep of the family. Right. And so I think that it has to do with God's reputation, with maintaining God's reputation, with respecting God's reputation, and making sure that God is honored and glorified through the way that we act so that when we say we're Christians, that means something. I think my main problem with what happens with regard to faith and politics is when we start applying Christian and describing candidates as Christian, placing that name on them, and then trying to

Ensure that they sort of meet the standards of that name. Right. So, you know, we see this again with Donald Trump a lot of times. I think I would say the same thing, that it's the problem I have with phrases like Christian nation, Christian nationalism, even Christian values. Right. Oftentimes those things don't actually have Christ as essential to them. Christ is superfluous, and what we're really talking about is, you know, a nationalism inspired by certain Christian principles, but certainly not rooted in Christ. A nation that was inspired by certain biblical principles, but certainly not rooted in Christ. Right? You know, and so I think we've got that sort of language that's a problem for us. And so when I read something like on Evangelicals for Harris that says Kamala's life of public service is a reflection of her faith in Christ, I start to feel uncomfortable with that because I don't always see her, I don't know that I've ever seen her, and maybe I've just missed it, but I don't know that I've ever seen her proclaim Jesus as Lord. And so that makes me a little uncomfortable, but I have the same, you know, sort of Trump problem, right? And so it's not like I think he's, you know, some sort of, he does Trump really exhibit the markers of Christianity that would suggest that he is a mature Christian? I don't know. Like, I hate to judge that, and so I'm really not going to comment on it much more than that. But I will say it makes me uncomfortable, and in the same way that, you know, the website suggests, you know, Evangelicals for Harris suggests that we need to reaffirm who we are voting for by voting for someone who better reflects Christian values. Well, to me, Christian values have to do with things for which Christ is essential. It starts with the resurrection of Jesus. It starts with the building of the kingdom of God. It acknowledges that he is the authority above all things, and it reasons from there. I don't get the impression that that's what's happening on this website. I don't get the impression that that's what's happening with Christian nationalism. I don't get the impression that that's what's happening with conservatism. And so part of me says, there's nothing particularly wrong. All these systems are broken, right? But can I get my head around somebody voting for Kamala Harris? Sure. Can I get my head around somebody voting for Trump? Sure. Can I get my head around conservatism, liberalism, you know, all these other systems? Yeah, I mean, I think there's rational arguments for all of those. Do I think they're all going to fail in certain ways? A hundred percent. Yep, no question. Right, these are not things that are going to drag us up out of the depths of our depravity. And so on some level, do I think that they can accomplish restraining certain forms of evil? Probably. Do I think that they'll create others? Absolutely. Because they have no solution for it. They have no solution for sin. That's found in Christ. And that requires a standard to which we are constantly trying to hit. It means that we're always living a life of confession of our sin because we never live up to that standard. It means that we're accepting the grace of God. We're acknowledging him as the source of all of our power and all of our thought. Like it entails a lot of things that change the way we see the world and change the way we live within it. Politics isn't that. And so we can have a discussion about certain policy issues. We can have a discussion about the way that the government can manage what it's overseeing. I think that's an appropriate conversation. I don't always understand why we have to label one side or the other Christian. Yes, let's use biblical reasoning to get through that. But let's understand we're working within an imperfect system. Right. And so can we really say that we're going to abolish individual discernment here? That we're really in a situation where you could kind of go either way? And I think part of the challenge that we're having is that because the church hasn't focused on discipleship, because it isn't really a community of disciples, we're now struggling and groping and trying to figure out how does individual discernment work within a context where there isn't a deep rooting in following Jesus Christ in the first place? Yeah, he's not at the center of either of any of it. Right. I think that's really... If I had to pinpoint where my biggest concern is, that's it. Is that the church right now is acting politically without actually being the church. And that is a scary situation. Yep, it is. Because we're called to be in the world but not of the world, and that muddies the lines big time. Yeah. And I could be wrong. It could be I was not, like I've told you many times offline, I was not as engaged in past presidential election cycles as I am this time. But I don't feel like it was ever this dangerously close to this, like you're saying, in the past. Maybe it was. I just didn't see it. I would phrase it like this, Nate. And I'd have to... I'm kind of with you. I haven't done a lot of... I haven't paid a lot of attention throughout my life to politics. I have done a lot more study on it recently. Here's my intuition. Again, my guess. I think that this feels more contentious now because the cultural norms, morals, and values are at risk. In other words, that idea that there's a... The world is not the way it's supposed to be, right? That's actually the title of a book written by Plantinga, Not as It's Supposed to Be, right? And it's a commentary, a theological treatment of sin. And so the world is not the way it's supposed to be. We all recognize that the world isn't the way it's supposed to be. We recognized that 50, 100, 200 years ago, right? The world is never the way it's supposed to be. But we're comfortable with certain ways that the world isn't the way it's supposed to be. In other words, there is a world that I live in, probably that you live in. I recognize some of the things that are broken, but I'm kind of okay with them. Because like, yeah, you know, I get it, but what am I gonna do to fix it? Right? It's that sort of combating complacency. And so as I look back, what I see is people were comfortable with the way the culture was. Now that that is under threat, it's becoming contentious. But what we're seeing in some of the actions, and I think what some of David French talks about, you know, this sort of vitriolic, violent, disparaging comments and those kind of things that are coming out. I don't actually see it as a fundamental change in character. I see it as a reaction to people losing something they don't want to lose. And if we just think about it in that space, Nate, what we realize is, you know, Hebrews 12, 28 talks about, we should be grateful that we have inherited an unshakable kingdom. Christians don't lose anything. So what do we have to be defensive about? Right. What do we have to be violent about? What do we have to be angry about? Not a whole lot. Like we can be vehicles of peace and joy and gratitude. Even, you know, I mean, James talks about this, finding joy in suffering. We can have all that. We can demonstrate all that unless we believe that we are in a kingdom that can be shaken. And that's where we're really living. And I think that's what's happened. So over the years, what I would say is, yes, this wasn't as vitriolic as it is now, but that's because the comfort level was high enough to mitigate against this sort of violence. You know, even if, okay, gay marriage is, that was a hot thing for a while. Well, you know, okay, gay marriage is passed, but we're still okay. We don't have to, we don't have to marry gays. There's a comfort level and a segmenting off that happens. And now we don't have that. We don't have that comfort level. And it's creating this sort of response. And, and I think the response is indicative of us not being rooted in the right place. We're not rooted in Christ. We're not rooted in the kingdom of God. We are rooted in a political and national.

context that allows us to live comfortably without strife, without significant disagreement. That's what we're rooted in. And so now we're losing that comfort and we're getting violent. Yeah. And it waters down our witness. Like you said, I think now more than ever, we need to be pillars and beacons of hope to show that peace. And if our goal is to point people to Christ, now is not a time where we should be like being thinking in this line of thinking where we're like, well, let me, you know, just get to where I'm okay with it. Like, like you said, at the end of the day, it doesn't affect us. Can I read something to you that I read just because I, I really want to encourage people to have their faith and hope in Christ and not fear of it. Because it's easy. You know, if you if you start reading, you know how the algorithms from algorithms work on social media, if you start reading stuff and then you're 15 posts down and then you're just like, ah, sometimes I just have to take a break because it's like it can be overwhelming. Let me ask you a serious question. If something triggered a major market drop in the coming months, would your retirement be ready or exposed? With inflation, market volatility, and ongoing global uncertainty, more families are taking a closer look at whether their retirement plan is truly built to hold up, and many are finding that adding a layer of protection makes a lot of sense. Sanctuary Metals is a Christian-owned company that helps families strengthen their retirement savings with physical gold and silver through a gold IRA. During uncertain times, many people look to precious metals as a way to add stability when other assets may be under pressure. 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They use these always, especially in these times, to get everyone in a state of fear when we are not supposed to be that, especially us. We should be leading by example and pointing people to Christ because at the end of the day, it does not affect us. I love what you said about, you know, it doesn't affect us either way. We know what's coming as Christians. We know what the Bible tells us. We know that Jesus is coming back for us. And I think it's a waste of time. And then also our efforts and energy shouldn't be put on the wrong things. We should be peace and we should be pointing people to him and not getting lost in the shuffle of it. But it's easy, man, human nature. Like I've found myself doing it lately. Like it's easy to get sucked into that line of thinking of just being fearful, you know, like I'm, you have a family. I have a family. I'm trying. I want to do what's best for my family, but I just don't think it's that trivial right now as people are making it out to be, like it's going to end one way or another. Yeah, I agree with you. And I, you know, when you're listing off some of those things, I go back to Y2K, if you recall. Yes. And I was gonna say that one too. Right. Like that was the biggest thing ever. And I'm not sure it did anything other than, you know, upset some IT folks. Right. Right. I mean, there was no apocalypse associated with it. And so I do think that there's a good bit of fear mongering on this. Yep. That we don't really recognize. Like if we look at what Trump did in four years in 2016 to 2020 and what Biden did from 2020 to 2024. Yeah, there are differences. I don't want to say there aren't differences. Right. Can we really trace those back, you know, have the changes of the last four years, they really due to Biden, or are they just the result of multiple choices over time that have led to this particular situation, many of which we wouldn't have control over and neither would the president have any control. You know, those are things that I often think about. It's like, it's just four years. Now, can a lot happen in four years? Yes. I mean, you know, there have been world leaders who pulled off an awful lot in a very short time. So, you don't wanna, it's not trivial, but at the same time, it's not ultimate. And so we need to root ourselves in the ultimate. Right. And the reason having rooted ourselves in that ultimate. And I think when we don't, we become people who are afraid of various things when we don't really need to be afraid of them. Mm-hmm. Probably the way I would phrase it is, fear is a difficult word, I think. We often associate it with a negative emotion, right? But if we look at the fear of the Lord in the Old Testament and the New Testament, fear isn't necessarily a negative emotion. Fear is a word that describes an ongoing reverential attentiveness to the God in our midst. And so, we can almost view it in terms of worship. It's this ongoing attentiveness, right? When that's focused on God and what he provides, the grace that he shows us, the salvation that he gives us, the blessings that he bestows on us. That ongoing attentiveness, that fear allows us to walk through the valley of the shadow of death with a relative degree of security and stability. When we bestow that reverential attentiveness to anything else, we move from building our house on the rock to building our house on the sand. 100%. And so what we're dealing with now is, we're giving an awful lot of our reverential attentiveness to one candidate over another. And some people, I think, are creating fear stories. Other people, I think, are actually believing there is a true fear here that I'm just not sold on. I could be completely wrong about that, but I will also say that, you know, if some of the things I've read about, you know, if Kamala Harris gets in office, she will abolish religious freedom and churches will be forced to hire, you know, all sorts of people, whether they agree with their doctrines or not, or what have you. I guess, to me, that just feels a little far-fetched. I'm just not sure I buy it. I don't think they're that concerned about the church. I don't think they have an agenda. Like, I think it's just, it matters now because it's a big chunk of people's decision process. That's the only reason why it's on her website, probably, if I was to be honest. Yeah, and I just find that, you know, overall, I would say, even if the worst possible scenario came to be, the reason the church should be worried has less to do with the situation and more to do with our lack of preparation. We're not ready for it. Right. That should give us some concern. And we don't want our comfortable little nooks and feelings that we have to be manipulated at all. Well, but I mean, I think that's part of the reason we're not ready for it. Yeah. And so the church is always, you know, instead of trying to fight to get somebody in who's going to allow us to keep that comfortable setting. And don't, I don't wanna make it sound like I think that's a horrible idea. Like, I do think there's an appropriate way, you see Paul do this. He cites his Roman citizenship at multiple points during the book of Acts, where he's basically saying, look, Rome promises me this. Why isn't Rome giving me this? And then he sort of protects himself, walls himself off from persecution. And so from a, you know, sort of transferring that over into an American context, I could sit back and say, yeah, it makes perfect sense that we would vote for a candidate who's going to preserve certain freedoms through the religious community because we've been promised those. We're supposed to have religious freedom, and so why would we elect a government that's going to abolish that? You know, it's not what all of us agree to. And so why don't you just do what all of us agree to? Right, and we'll navigate the details of that and the complexities of that. And that's fine. So I don't wanna make it sound like, you know, hey, don't vote for somebody who wants religious freedom, you know, opt for somebody who's gonna make you suffer. Not what I'm saying. Right. But what I am saying is that we should not be pinning our hopes. Paul never pinned his hope on Roman citizenship, right? If Rome had let him down in those moments, Paul would have been fine, right? Because his hope lies somewhere.

Yep. And so we've just got to make sure that we're navigating this appropriately and recognizing that religious freedom is an American doctrine. Christian freedom is a Christian doctrine. We are free to obey Christ, even if that brings suffering. We're free regardless of the consequences. We're free regardless of whether it seems practical or not. Religious freedom just gives us freedom from consequences. And that may not always be best for us. And so we have to at least leave open the possibility that God is always trying to refine his church to bring himself glory, to push his people to depend on him. And so the more we seek to protect our comfort, we may find ourselves acting counter to what God is doing. And we sort of discover that whenever we see the results of an election, right? If everything we thought was going to happen doesn't happen, it's not that God is wrong or that God has somehow been defeated. It's that we've made a miscalculation somewhere and we really didn't understand all of what God was doing the way we thought we did. Right. And so we have to rethink that. So all I would say is, yeah, I mean, this is where I think, you know, there are ways for Christians to think about policy and come to two different conclusions. I think that is where individual discernment comes in. And so that's why I'm not as bothered with what French is saying in his article on, you know, saving conservatism, voting for Harris, those kind of things. What I will say is I think that Christians of all stripes need to be careful about applying Christian language to these candidates, to one particular party or another, and suggesting that they somehow represent God better than the other side. I'm not even sure what that means. Right. It's just very difficult for me to understand. Like when that is one of the more ambiguous things ever. And it's usually when people say it, what they're saying is I support this side rather than the other side. And they may have reasons for it and all that kind of good stuff. But ultimately, better doesn't tell me anything. Right. Right. Is it better to eat dirt or lick the bottom of somebody's shoe? It's really up for it's really up for grabs on that. And neither one is particularly desirable. So better tells me nothing. And so what I want to try to do is encourage Christians to keep Christian apart from the choices we're making politically, not to wall our faith off from our political choices, but to stop labeling those political choices as Christian. In the same way that, you know, Paul talks about discerning what you'll eat. Right. And he makes that weak, strong argument in Romans 14 and 15. He's not saying that one of those decisions is Christian and the other isn't. Whether you eat, you know, if you eat, that's Christian. If you don't eat, that's not Christian or vice versa. It's not saying that. Right. He's saying that Christians can make individual decisions and discern differently about these things. And if you label one of these as Christian and the other one is, you know, not Christian, that's actually a problem. You just read those arguments. That's actually a problem. And I think we're running into the same thing here. Yeah. And it's not our place. Right. We're trying to draw these candidates into a realm that they aren't really playing in. And so why are we doing that? Why can't we just cut through all the ridiculousness and decide, is this candidate better or worse for America in whatever we decide is better or worse for America? And recognize that the church and America are not bound together as if if America fails, the church does, too. It's not the case. So, yeah, we kind of talked around French's article. We talked around, you know, evangelicals for Harris. And hopefully I'll have an op ed piece coming out on this that will synthesize a lot of what we've had as our conversation, Nate. But I think just to close it up, all I would suggest is, look, the church needs to be prepared to be faithful to God, to point to and glorify the triune God no matter what. No matter what. And if we're so comfortable that we can't stand four years under a candidate that we don't prefer, and we're concerned that this is going to be detrimental to the church's witness, to the church's ability to point to and glorify God, that's what we're concerned about, we are not prepared. And we need to focus on getting prepared. Yep. And I think the last thing I'll say is we haven't truly been persecuted here in America. Like we haven't really had to be uncomfortable to represent our faith. We can hide behind stuff like a lot of times I just don't engage, especially on social media. But one on one, I have no problem talking to people. But so we do need to be prepared because it's going to happen eventually. I don't know when, but it's going to get worse. It's not going to get easier. And so we do need to be prepared. And if you are getting distraught about this and worried about this, then you should probably self-reflect and examine yourself like and where your loyalties and your faith really does lie. You know what I mean? I don't know if that's the best way to say that, but but yeah, I think you're right. We need we need to look inward and get ready because it's not going to get better, I think. And it might not be right now, but down the road, years from now. I mean, we know the world is getting closer and closer to pulling away from from God and and it's going to get harder for Christians. And so you might as well just accept that now. Yeah. Well, I think it's a good spot to end. And so this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate it, Nate. And these are issues that are really important for the church. They're really important for us to remain centered on discipleship and really do what I think we're called to do, which is be and make disciples for Jesus Christ, really learn to live under his authority. And so hopefully people will take this conversation in that vein. This isn't about whether or not you or I are voting for Trump or Harris or whether we even care one way or the other. It's really about a deep desire to see the church be the church, to witness to Jesus Christ and to point to and glorify the triune God and all that it does. 100 percent. And love people in the process. And love people in the process. Well, thanks for the conversation, man. And thanks for everybody hanging in. We will catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to LifeAudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more. Want to learn more about God and his will for your life one verse at a time? I'm Kwanese Petway, co-host of the Your Daily Bible Verse podcast. I'm inviting you to tune in and subscribe at lifeaudio.com.